The New Science of Cold Water Immersion with Brad Schoenlfeld
00:00Brad shenfeld is one of the leading Brad shenfeld is one of the leading authorities on body composition and authorities on body composition and authorities on body composition and training especially around uh weight training especially around uh weight training especially around uh weight loss and building muscle and you might loss and building muscle and you might loss and building muscle and you might know him from his website look great know him from his website look great know him from his website look great naked he recently co-authored a meta naked he recently co-authored a meta naked he recently co-authored a meta study analysis about cold exposure and study analysis about cold exposure and study analysis about cold exposure and strength training which I spoke about strength training which I spoke about strength training which I spoke about obliquely in a video about two weeks ago obliquely in a video about two weeks ago obliquely in a video about two weeks ago on the science of ice plunging after on the science of ice plunging after on the science of ice plunging after workouts but since I'm not an actual workouts but since I'm not an actual workouts but since I'm not an actual scientist with a PhD on hypertrophy I scientist with a PhD on hypertrophy I scientist with a PhD on hypertrophy I thought it would be good to bring in an thought it would be good to bring in an thought it would be good to bring in an actual expert to discuss the results and actual expert to discuss the results and actual expert to discuss the results and so now I would am introducing you to so now I would am introducing you to so now I would am introducing you to Brad shenfeld and uh thank you so much Brad shenfeld and uh thank you so much Brad shenfeld and uh thank you so much for coming on the podcast I really for coming on the podcast I really for coming on the podcast I really appreciate uh you taking the time first appreciate uh you taking the time first appreciate uh you taking the time first up let's just go real general what was up let's just go real general what was up let's just go real general what was the study that you put out about and how the study that you put out about and how the study that you put out about and how did how did you conduct it and what were did how did you conduct it and what were did how did you conduct it and what were the main takeaways yeah so just for the main takeaways yeah so just for the main takeaways yeah so just for clarification we did not do an original clarification we did not do an original clarification we did not do an original study this was called a MAA analysis for study this was called a MAA analysis for study this was called a MAA analysis for those who may not know a meta analysis
01:00those who may not know a meta analysis those who may not know a meta analysis combines the existing literature so combines the existing literature so combines the existing literature so basically we it's a study of studies you basically we it's a study of studies you basically we it's a study of studies you have certain inclusion criteria and we have certain inclusion criteria and we have certain inclusion criteria and we took all the studies that directly took all the studies that directly took all the studies that directly compared resistance training with compared resistance training with compared resistance training with resistance training plus cold water resistance training plus cold water resistance training plus cold water immersion done before the workout I'm immersion done before the workout I'm immersion done before the workout I'm sorry done immediately after the workout sorry done immediately after the workout sorry done immediately after the workout um and then looked at the muscle muscle um and then looked at the muscle muscle um and then looked at the muscle muscle response the hypertrophic response post response the hypertrophic response post response the hypertrophic response post exercise or when I say po post study exercise or when I say po post study exercise or when I say po post study yeah and what were were the main yeah and what were were the main yeah and what were were the main takeaways um well the uh primary takeaways um well the uh primary takeaways um well the uh primary takeaway is that there was a blunting in takeaway is that there was a blunting in takeaway is that there was a blunting in the CWI group so when you actually did the CWI group so when you actually did the CWI group so when you actually did CWI after your what CWI a cold water CWI after your what CWI a cold water CWI after your what CWI a cold water immersion M so when you do cold waterer immersion M so when you do cold waterer immersion M so when you do cold waterer immersion immersion immersion post-workout uh there was a blunting of post-workout uh there was a blunting of post-workout uh there was a blunting of muscle hypertrophy which is muscle muscle hypertrophy which is muscle muscle hypertrophy which is muscle growth the development of muscle uh the growth the development of muscle uh the growth the development of muscle uh the studies lasted um tax some of my memor studies lasted um tax some of my memor studies lasted um tax some of my memor somewhat but I think on average there somewhat but I think on average there somewhat but I think on average there were around six to 10 weeks there were were around six to 10 weeks there were were around six to 10 weeks there were eight studies that met her inclusion
02:00eight studies that met her inclusion eight studies that met her inclusion criteria I don't believe there were any criteria I don't believe there were any criteria I don't believe there were any less than six and I don't believe there less than six and I don't believe there less than six and I don't believe there were any anyway but they were relatively were any anyway but they were relatively were any anyway but they were relatively somewhat short term but certainly enough somewhat short term but certainly enough somewhat short term but certainly enough where you can see muscle development you where you can see muscle development you where you can see muscle development you can accurately measure muscle can accurately measure muscle can accurately measure muscle development uh and on a general level development uh and on a general level development uh and on a general level there was a blunting of viy now I will there was a blunting of viy now I will there was a blunting of viy now I will say that the magnitude of the blunting say that the magnitude of the blunting say that the magnitude of the blunting of the impairment was not huge so of the impairment was not huge so of the impairment was not huge so certainly you do you still grew muscle certainly you do you still grew muscle certainly you do you still grew muscle with CWI just the response the with CWI just the response the with CWI just the response the adaptations were less than if you just adaptations were less than if you just adaptations were less than if you just did uh resistance training without the did uh resistance training without the did uh resistance training without the CWI and and so the idea here as I CWI and and so the idea here as I CWI and and so the idea here as I understand it and please correct me if understand it and please correct me if understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong is that when you work out you I'm wrong is that when you work out you I'm wrong is that when you work out you uh you know you're making these little uh you know you're making these little uh you know you're making these little small tears in your muscle and there's small tears in your muscle and there's small tears in your muscle and there's an inflammation process that occurs an inflammation process that occurs an inflammation process that occurs during recovery which is you know during recovery which is you know during recovery which is you know painful sometimes but the that recovery painful sometimes but the that recovery painful sometimes but the that recovery moment of that inflammation is actually
03:00moment of that inflammation is actually moment of that inflammation is actually part of the muscle growth so that when part of the muscle growth so that when part of the muscle growth so that when you jump into cold water you um blunt uh you jump into cold water you um blunt uh you jump into cold water you um blunt uh the the the the inflammation which is the the the the inflammation which is the the the the inflammation which is actually the thing that you're trying to actually the thing that you're trying to actually the thing that you're trying to produce in order to get those muscle produce in order to get those muscle produce in order to get those muscle gains is that more or less gains is that more or less gains is that more or less accurate well uh so this is where it accurate well uh so this is where it accurate well uh so this is where it gets somewhat dicey in terms of trying gets somewhat dicey in terms of trying gets somewhat dicey in terms of trying to interpret the research number one we to interpret the research number one we to interpret the research number one we did not look at the mechanistic aspects did not look at the mechanistic aspects did not look at the mechanistic aspects and it's very difficult to study and it's very difficult to study and it's very difficult to study mechanisms trying to tease without what mechanisms trying to tease without what mechanisms trying to tease without what is causing a respon it's pretty easy to is causing a respon it's pretty easy to is causing a respon it's pretty easy to see a response you can just use various see a response you can just use various see a response you can just use various measurement techniques to see whether measurement techniques to see whether measurement techniques to see whether muscles grew or didn't grow after a muscles grew or didn't grow after a muscles grew or didn't grow after a study is done trying to determine what study is done trying to determine what study is done trying to determine what causes that development it becomes causes that development it becomes causes that development it becomes somewhat difficult now there certainly somewhat difficult now there certainly somewhat difficult now there certainly is evidence that the acute meaning the is evidence that the acute meaning the is evidence that the acute meaning the short-term postc immediately after an short-term postc immediately after an short-term postc immediately after an exercise session response uh exercise session response uh exercise session response uh inflammatory response is involved in the inflammatory response is involved in the inflammatory response is involved in the hypertrophic uh overall all hypertrophic
04:00hypertrophic uh overall all hypertrophic hypertrophic uh overall all hypertrophic adaptations over time interestingly the adaptations over time interestingly the adaptations over time interestingly the Chron if so when inflammation is chronic Chron if so when inflammation is chronic Chron if so when inflammation is chronic it actually tends to show a negative it actually tends to show a negative it actually tends to show a negative effect on hypertrophy that's why there effect on hypertrophy that's why there effect on hypertrophy that's why there there's been research in nonsteroidal there's been research in nonsteroidal there's been research in nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory anti-inflammatory anti-inflammatory medication and the general consensus is medication and the general consensus is medication and the general consensus is from the research in younger individuals from the research in younger individuals from the research in younger individuals there is a blunting of hypertrophy there is a blunting of hypertrophy there is a blunting of hypertrophy through non-steroidal uh drugs uh non through non-steroidal uh drugs uh non through non-steroidal uh drugs uh non idal anti-inflammatory drugs uh and that idal anti-inflammatory drugs uh and that idal anti-inflammatory drugs uh and that seems to be because it is blunting this seems to be because it is blunting this seems to be because it is blunting this acute response however in older acute response however in older acute response however in older individuals there is somewhat of a individuals there is somewhat of a individuals there is somewhat of a positive response and again we can only positive response and again we can only positive response and again we can only speculate mechanistically but that would speculate mechanistically but that would speculate mechanistically but that would seem to be because older individuals seem to be because older individuals seem to be because older individuals tend to have chronic inflammation which tend to have chronic inflammation which tend to have chronic inflammation which has a greater negative effect than any has a greater negative effect than any has a greater negative effect than any acute effect of that would be positive acute effect of that would be positive acute effect of that would be positive post-inflammatory so these are things post-inflammatory so these are things post-inflammatory so these are things again that get somewhat difficult to again that get somewhat difficult to again that get somewhat difficult to understand uh because there's a lot of
05:00understand uh because there's a lot of understand uh because there's a lot of factors that can confound it but what I factors that can confound it but what I factors that can confound it but what I will say is is that I am not sure and we will say is is that I am not sure and we will say is is that I am not sure and we talked about this in the paper that that talked about this in the paper that that talked about this in the paper that that is even the mechanism involved here so is even the mechanism involved here so is even the mechanism involved here so if you look at the data so there there if you look at the data so there there if you look at the data so there there is data on CWI and its effect on the is data on CWI and its effect on the is data on CWI and its effect on the acute inflammatory response you can that acute inflammatory response you can that acute inflammatory response you can that can be studied relatively easy and some can be studied relatively easy and some can be studied relatively easy and some studies show that it does blunt the studies show that it does blunt the studies show that it does blunt the acute inflammatory response and some acute inflammatory response and some acute inflammatory response and some studies show that it does not uh so studies show that it does not uh so studies show that it does not uh so our hypothesis when we're trying to our hypothesis when we're trying to our hypothesis when we're trying to tease out mechanisms we think a more tease out mechanisms we think a more tease out mechanisms we think a more likely ex likely ex likely ex explanatory uh or explanation to this explanatory uh or explanation to this explanatory uh or explanation to this would be that uh there is a blunting of would be that uh there is a blunting of would be that uh there is a blunting of the blood flow so cold water shuns blood the blood flow so cold water shuns blood the blood flow so cold water shuns blood to the skin and away from the to the skin and away from the to the skin and away from the musculature and that can remain for for musculature and that can remain for for musculature and that can remain for for a decent amount of time and uh our a decent amount of time and uh our a decent amount of time and uh our working theory is that um working I working theory is that um working I working theory is that um working I guess you call it hypothesis because it guess you call it hypothesis because it guess you call it hypothesis because it really hasn't been a all studied but
06:00really hasn't been a all studied but really hasn't been a all studied but anyway the speculation is is that the anyway the speculation is is that the anyway the speculation is is that the shun the uh impairment of blood flow to shun the uh impairment of blood flow to shun the uh impairment of blood flow to the musculature reduces the body's the musculature reduces the body's the musculature reduces the body's ability to deliver nutrients to the ability to deliver nutrients to the ability to deliver nutrients to the tissues for repair I mean muscles are tissues for repair I mean muscles are tissues for repair I mean muscles are repaired the um post exercise muscle repaired the um post exercise muscle repaired the um post exercise muscle protein synthetic response is brought protein synthetic response is brought protein synthetic response is brought about largely through the um the about largely through the um the about largely through the um the development of um muscle proteins development of um muscle proteins development of um muscle proteins through amino acids and if uh if there through amino acids and if uh if there through amino acids and if uh if there you're not able to sufficiently supply you're not able to sufficiently supply you're not able to sufficiently supply the muscles with the necessary nutrients the muscles with the necessary nutrients the muscles with the necessary nutrients uh conceivably that may be explanatory uh conceivably that may be explanatory uh conceivably that may be explanatory oh that's fascinating uh and I I like oh that's fascinating uh and I I like oh that's fascinating uh and I I like that you're so measured in this because that you're so measured in this because that you're so measured in this because uh and this is something that I hit on a uh and this is something that I hit on a uh and this is something that I hit on a lot in this podcast is that there is so lot in this podcast is that there is so lot in this podcast is that there is so much information out there that going much information out there that going much information out there that going directly into mechanisms is very very directly into mechanisms is very very directly into mechanisms is very very dangerous because the body is intensely dangerous because the body is intensely dangerous because the body is intensely intensely complex um so that actually
07:00intensely complex um so that actually intensely complex um so that actually the end points of your study in some the end points of your study in some the end points of your study in some ways maybe are even more valid because ways maybe are even more valid because ways maybe are even more valid because you're just looking at the intervention you're just looking at the intervention you're just looking at the intervention of cold exposure versus being like of cold exposure versus being like of cold exposure versus being like trying to puzzle out what happens in trying to puzzle out what happens in trying to puzzle out what happens in cold exposure and as we've seen with cold exposure and as we've seen with cold exposure and as we've seen with other cold water experts like Susanna other cold water experts like Susanna other cold water experts like Susanna soberg for instance the science on cold soberg for instance the science on cold soberg for instance the science on cold exposure is terrible right especially exposure is terrible right especially exposure is terrible right especially when we get into the mechanist when we get into the mechanist when we get into the mechanist mechanistic stuff um well I I will also mechanistic stuff um well I I will also mechanistic stuff um well I I will also say that uh in line and this is really a say that uh in line and this is really a say that uh in line and this is really a primary reason we did this study there's primary reason we did this study there's primary reason we did this study there's been quite a bit of acute studies that been quite a bit of acute studies that been quite a bit of acute studies that have been done looking at muscle protein have been done looking at muscle protein have been done looking at muscle protein synthesis so again I don't know how synthesis so again I don't know how synthesis so again I don't know how deeply you want to get into this but the deeply you want to get into this but the deeply you want to get into this but the driving factor of hypertrophy is an driving factor of hypertrophy is an driving factor of hypertrophy is an increase in muscle protein synthesis increase in muscle protein synthesis increase in muscle protein synthesis above protein breakdown over time so if above protein breakdown over time so if above protein breakdown over time so if you perpetually have a greater protein you perpetually have a greater protein you perpetually have a greater protein synthetic higher protein synthetic synthetic higher protein synthetic synthetic higher protein synthetic response versus degradation you'll response versus degradation you'll response versus degradation you'll ultimately accrete muscle proteins and ultimately accrete muscle proteins and ultimately accrete muscle proteins and over time you'll build muscle
08:00over time you'll build muscle over time you'll build muscle uh there is uh quite quite a number of uh there is uh quite quite a number of uh there is uh quite quite a number of studies or several at least that have studies or several at least that have studies or several at least that have shown a blunting of muscle protein shown a blunting of muscle protein shown a blunting of muscle protein synthesis from cold water immersion synthesis from cold water immersion synthesis from cold water immersion there is a number of studies that also there is a number of studies that also there is a number of studies that also have shown a blunting of the anabolic have shown a blunting of the anabolic have shown a blunting of the anabolic signaling so the there's a Cascade uh signaling so the there's a Cascade uh signaling so the there's a Cascade uh that is involved in carrying out muscle that is involved in carrying out muscle that is involved in carrying out muscle protein synthesis which involves various protein synthesis which involves various protein synthesis which involves various anabolic enzymes that there's a there's anabolic enzymes that there's a there's anabolic enzymes that there's a there's a Cascade of enzymes so a enzymatic a Cascade of enzymes so a enzymatic a Cascade of enzymes so a enzymatic Cascade that ultimately channels to the Cascade that ultimately channels to the Cascade that ultimately channels to the protein synthetic response and this has protein synthetic response and this has protein synthetic response and this has been shown to be blunted so this does been shown to be blunted so this does been shown to be blunted so this does follow a pattern where there's on the follow a pattern where there's on the follow a pattern where there's on the acute level it's been shown that there acute level it's been shown that there acute level it's been shown that there is there is a blunting that would is there is a blunting that would is there is a blunting that would conceivably lead to a blunting of muscle conceivably lead to a blunting of muscle conceivably lead to a blunting of muscle development and in fact that's what we development and in fact that's what we development and in fact that's what we did find but again it is not a huge it's did find but again it is not a huge it's did find but again it is not a huge it's blun it enough now with that you then blun it enough now with that you then blun it enough now with that you then have to say how how meaning practically have to say how how meaning practically have to say how how meaning practically meaningful are those results and that I meaningful are those results and that I meaningful are those results and that I would always say that would be it would always say that would be it would always say that would be it depends on your uh your goals yeah it's
09:00depends on your uh your goals yeah it's depends on your uh your goals yeah it's interesting um you know one thing you interesting um you know one thing you interesting um you know one thing you mentioned with when you're talking about mentioned with when you're talking about mentioned with when you're talking about nids uh sort anti-inflammatory um drugs nids uh sort anti-inflammatory um drugs nids uh sort anti-inflammatory um drugs it it actually had a different effect in it it actually had a different effect in it it actually had a different effect in younger people to older people was there younger people to older people was there younger people to older people was there any indication that there might be an any indication that there might be an any indication that there might be an age related component to the to cold age related component to the to cold age related component to the to cold water immersion in the in the I believe water immersion in the in the I believe water immersion in the in the I believe it was 8 studies that you looked at well it was 8 studies that you looked at well it was 8 studies that you looked at well unfortunately no because every study unfortunately no because every study unfortunately no because every study involved young subjects so that has not involved young subjects so that has not involved young subjects so that has not been looked at these are again certain been looked at these are again certain been looked at these are again certain limitations when you look at the limitations when you look at the limitations when you look at the research there's been no I don't think research there's been no I don't think research there's been no I don't think there were any maybe there was one that there were any maybe there was one that there were any maybe there was one that was in both men and women but I know I was in both men and women but I know I was in both men and women but I know I think seven out of the eight were men so think seven out of the eight were men so think seven out of the eight were men so again you can't really tease out I don't again you can't really tease out I don't again you can't really tease out I don't really I can't logically think of why really I can't logically think of why really I can't logically think of why women would respond differently but women would respond differently but women would respond differently but until you have studies you can't say for until you have studies you can't say for until you have studies you can't say for sure certainly with older individuals sure certainly with older individuals sure certainly with older individuals and there you could make a potential and there you could make a potential and there you could make a potential case why uh that may have alternative case why uh that may have alternative case why uh that may have alternative for results on older
10:00for results on older for results on older individuals um we can't say so since individuals um we can't say so since individuals um we can't say so since we're talking about building muscle here we're talking about building muscle here we're talking about building muscle here what and I know that you've written like what and I know that you've written like what and I know that you've written like five books on this so this is probably a five books on this so this is probably a five books on this so this is probably a cheap question and impossible one but cheap question and impossible one but cheap question and impossible one but what is the best way to build bustle uh what is the best way to build bustle uh what is the best way to build bustle uh would you would you would you say well that would require a very long say well that would require a very long say well that would require a very long podcast I mean there you know that that podcast I mean there you know that that podcast I mean there you know that that ultimately when you say the best way to ultimately when you say the best way to ultimately when you say the best way to optimize IED muscle building that optimize IED muscle building that optimize IED muscle building that involves a very nuanced understanding involves a very nuanced understanding involves a very nuanced understanding both of the science and and the both of the science and and the both of the science and and the individual because there's not a cookie individual because there's not a cookie individual because there's not a cookie cut or prescription each person responds cut or prescription each person responds cut or prescription each person responds somewhat differently and there are somewhat differently and there are somewhat differently and there are various principles or guidelines that I various principles or guidelines that I various principles or guidelines that I can give but again that would be a very can give but again that would be a very can give but again that would be a very lengthy podcast which I'm not sure you lengthy podcast which I'm not sure you lengthy podcast which I'm not sure you want to go into but it involves want to go into but it involves want to go into but it involves resistance training I I will to boil it resistance training I I will to boil it resistance training I I will to boil it down consistent resistance training uh down consistent resistance training uh down consistent resistance training uh with um somewhat High with um somewhat High with um somewhat High volumes uh spectrum of repetition
11:00volumes uh spectrum of repetition volumes uh spectrum of repetition loading um any the it is a very nuanced loading um any the it is a very nuanced loading um any the it is a very nuanced topic I I don't I don't even want to go topic I I don't I don't even want to go topic I I don't I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole because it will down that rabbit hole because it will down that rabbit hole because it will end up being a very wrong talk yeah I'm end up being a very wrong talk yeah I'm end up being a very wrong talk yeah I'm feeling that I'm on the edge of a feeling that I'm on the edge of a feeling that I'm on the edge of a precipice there with Eddie follow-up precipice there with Eddie follow-up precipice there with Eddie follow-up question because obviously um every question because obviously um every question because obviously um every individual is different hi I am just individual is different hi I am just individual is different hi I am just doing a very quick Interruption of this doing a very quick Interruption of this doing a very quick Interruption of this show to say thank you for being here and show to say thank you for being here and show to say thank you for being here and this is that sort of scheduled this is that sort of scheduled this is that sort of scheduled announcement where I say it would be announcement where I say it would be announcement where I say it would be great if you would consider supporting great if you would consider supporting great if you would consider supporting the work that I do I am a completely the work that I do I am a completely the work that I do I am a completely independent journalist and I love being independent journalist and I love being independent journalist and I love being able to do interviews and long form able to do interviews and long form able to do interviews and long form content uh on a Sho string budget so if content uh on a Sho string budget so if content uh on a Sho string budget so if you are the kind of person who likes uh you are the kind of person who likes uh you are the kind of person who likes uh seeing this sort of stuff and wants to seeing this sort of stuff and wants to seeing this sort of stuff and wants to get early access to the stuff I do come get early access to the stuff I do come get early access to the stuff I do come check my stuff out on patreon uh we have check my stuff out on patreon uh we have check my stuff out on patreon uh we have like lots of subscriber levels coming in like lots of subscriber levels coming in like lots of subscriber levels coming in starting at like five bucks a month I'd starting at like five bucks a month I'd starting at like five bucks a month I'd love you to be a part of that and if not love you to be a part of that and if not love you to be a part of that and if not no worries you will still be able to see no worries you will still be able to see no worries you will still be able to see all of my stuff for free here on YouTube
12:00all of my stuff for free here on YouTube all of my stuff for free here on YouTube and my podcast and my free newsletter um and my podcast and my free newsletter um and my podcast and my free newsletter um go check all that stuff out and you know go check all that stuff out and you know go check all that stuff out and you know hit that like And subscribe button and hit that like And subscribe button and hit that like And subscribe button and without any further Ado we are back to without any further Ado we are back to without any further Ado we are back to the show consistency does seem to be uh the show consistency does seem to be uh the show consistency does seem to be uh an important component when I look at an important component when I look at an important component when I look at like sort of the work of um you know like sort of the work of um you know like sort of the work of um you know Steve Magnus for instance it's not about Steve Magnus for instance it's not about Steve Magnus for instance it's not about the one optimal thing that you do in a the one optimal thing that you do in a the one optimal thing that you do in a moment but actually things you do over moment but actually things you do over moment but actually things you do over time would that be fair to say well time would that be fair to say well time would that be fair to say well absolutely uh consistency is the most absolutely uh consistency is the most absolutely uh consistency is the most important thing well that and training important thing well that and training important thing well that and training with sufficient effort so you could be with sufficient effort so you could be with sufficient effort so you could be very consistent but if you're using very consistent but if you're using very consistent but if you're using suboptimal effort you're going to have suboptimal effort you're going to have suboptimal effort you're going to have very limited ability to build muscles so very limited ability to build muscles so very limited ability to build muscles so the the most important the the most important the the most important variable uh when we talk about the variable uh when we talk about the variable uh when we talk about the resistance training variables is the resistance training variables is the resistance training variables is the effort that you put in you need to train effort that you put in you need to train effort that you put in you need to train you need to challenge your muscles you need to challenge your muscles you need to challenge your muscles beyond their present capacity over time beyond their present capacity over time beyond their present capacity over time but within that you need to do it but within that you need to do it but within that you need to do it consistently if you just train once you consistently if you just train once you consistently if you just train once you could train very hard but just do it
13:00could train very hard but just do it could train very hard but just do it once a month and that's not going to once a month and that's not going to once a month and that's not going to really do anything either so there has really do anything either so there has really do anything either so there has to be repetition over the course of to be repetition over the course of to be repetition over the course of weeks months years and then like I said weeks months years and then like I said weeks months years and then like I said the manipulation of variables on an the manipulation of variables on an the manipulation of variables on an individual level we have some science to individual level we have some science to individual level we have some science to provide guidelines but uh there is no provide guidelines but uh there is no provide guidelines but uh there is no cookie cutter everyone does not respond cookie cutter everyone does not respond cookie cutter everyone does not respond the same to the manipulation of the same to the manipulation of the same to the manipulation of variables sure what was the when you variables sure what was the when you variables sure what was the when you said that the difference was small I said that the difference was small I said that the difference was small I think I'd like to dig down into that a think I'd like to dig down into that a think I'd like to dig down into that a little bit more and I'm talking about um little bit more and I'm talking about um little bit more and I'm talking about um cold water immersion after working out cold water immersion after working out cold water immersion after working out um how small is this is is this small um how small is this is is this small um how small is this is is this small enough to be like sort of negligible do enough to be like sort of negligible do enough to be like sort of negligible do what you want or is this actually maybe what you want or is this actually maybe what you want or is this actually maybe you should switch some of your chain you should switch some of your chain you should switch some of your chain training protocols like how how big is training protocols like how how big is training protocols like how how big is that Gap would you say it's a great that Gap would you say it's a great that Gap would you say it's a great question and the way we determine this question and the way we determine this question and the way we determine this is through what's called an effect size is through what's called an effect size is through what's called an effect size so when you do a ma analysis basically so when you do a ma analysis basically so when you do a ma analysis basically you are combining all studies into one you are combining all studies into one you are combining all studies into one big study by statistically a standard big study by statistically a standard big study by statistically a standard iing the results because different
14:00iing the results because different iing the results because different studies use different metrics for their studies use different metrics for their studies use different metrics for their uh to to determine muscle development uh to to determine muscle development uh to to determine muscle development which by the way would be a limitation which by the way would be a limitation which by the way would be a limitation because some studies use like uh dexa because some studies use like uh dexa because some studies use like uh dexa others use bi b electrical impedance others use bi b electrical impedance others use bi b electrical impedance others use MRI and ultrasound so some others use MRI and ultrasound so some others use MRI and ultrasound so some were more accurate than others in their were more accurate than others in their were more accurate than others in their interpretation but anyway in order to interpretation but anyway in order to interpretation but anyway in order to standardize these we look at what's standardize these we look at what's standardize these we look at what's called a standardized mean difference called a standardized mean difference called a standardized mean difference and and and um um um the standardized mean Difference by by the standardized mean Difference by by the standardized mean Difference by by that definition by the by the metric that definition by the by the metric that definition by the by the metric that we use was a relatively small that we use was a relatively small that we use was a relatively small effect it was we had good confidence effect it was we had good confidence effect it was we had good confidence that there was an effect but the that there was an effect but the that there was an effect but the magnitude of the effect we didn't it's magnitude of the effect we didn't it's magnitude of the effect we didn't it's not Quantified in a percentage and it's not Quantified in a percentage and it's not Quantified in a percentage and it's somewhat difficult to say but what I somewhat difficult to say but what I somewhat difficult to say but what I would say to you is that in my opinion would say to you is that in my opinion would say to you is that in my opinion uh based on the results that for a uh based on the results that for a uh based on the results that for a bodybuilder or even someone that just bodybuilder or even someone that just bodybuilder or even someone that just wants to you know get optim their muscle wants to you know get optim their muscle wants to you know get optim their muscle development or even come not necessarily
15:00development or even come not necessarily development or even come not necessarily even optimize but get more muscle even optimize but get more muscle even optimize but get more muscle development it could be meaningful uh development it could be meaningful uh development it could be meaningful uh for someone who just wants to feel for someone who just wants to feel for someone who just wants to feel better and yeah if I get some muscle better and yeah if I get some muscle better and yeah if I get some muscle that's a secondary thing then I don't that's a secondary thing then I don't that's a secondary thing then I don't think it's meaningful so again that's think it's meaningful so again that's think it's meaningful so again that's where there's the Spectrum based on on where there's the Spectrum based on on where there's the Spectrum based on on your goals I would say that uh anyone your goals I would say that uh anyone your goals I would say that uh anyone who does want to build has a goal of who does want to build has a goal of who does want to build has a goal of building muscle that the results building muscle that the results building muscle that the results potentially could be meaningful it's not potentially could be meaningful it's not potentially could be meaningful it's not going to be the difference between not going to be the difference between not going to be the difference between not fitting into a shirt or fitting into a fitting into a shirt or fitting into a fitting into a shirt or fitting into a shirt shirt shirt but uh but it you know we having your but uh but it you know we having your but uh but it you know we having your sleeves like bulging out and needing an sleeves like bulging out and needing an sleeves like bulging out and needing an extra extra wide size but it certainly extra extra wide size but it certainly extra extra wide size but it certainly could be a noticeable difference could be a noticeable difference could be a noticeable difference potentially yeah it's it's interesting I potentially yeah it's it's interesting I potentially yeah it's it's interesting I certainly know a lot of people who are certainly know a lot of people who are certainly know a lot of people who are athletes and I'm not an athlete I'm a athletes and I'm not an athlete I'm a athletes and I'm not an athlete I'm a journalist um uh and I have friends who journalist um uh and I have friends who journalist um uh and I have friends who are like properly jacked like big big are like properly jacked like big big are like properly jacked like big big dudes with their six- packs in the whole dudes with their six- packs in the whole dudes with their six- packs in the whole thing who um do religiously ice bath and thing who um do religiously ice bath and thing who um do religiously ice bath and sauna every day at at the end of the day
16:00sauna every day at at the end of the day sauna every day at at the end of the day I think they do their workouts in the I think they do their workouts in the I think they do their workouts in the morning um uh and maybe the a second morning um uh and maybe the a second morning um uh and maybe the a second workout at like workout at like workout at like noon and it hasn't certainly impeded noon and it hasn't certainly impeded noon and it hasn't certainly impeded them uh in their and i' I've actually I them uh in their and i' I've actually I them uh in their and i' I've actually I showed them your study and he was like showed them your study and he was like showed them your study and he was like huh that's interesting cool I'm Gonna huh that's interesting cool I'm Gonna huh that's interesting cool I'm Gonna Keep on doing what I'm doing and I think Keep on doing what I'm doing and I think Keep on doing what I'm doing and I think this leads to something that you wrote this leads to something that you wrote this leads to something that you wrote at the end of your um I think this was at the end of your um I think this was at the end of your um I think this was at the end of your blog post on the on at the end of your blog post on the on at the end of your blog post on the on the topic which I'll link too um for the topic which I'll link too um for the topic which I'll link too um for anyone who's interested in reading it uh anyone who's interested in reading it uh anyone who's interested in reading it uh and where you wrote If optimiz izing and where you wrote If optimiz izing and where you wrote If optimiz izing muscular adaptations is not a high muscular adaptations is not a high muscular adaptations is not a high priority and you enjoy ice baths feel priority and you enjoy ice baths feel priority and you enjoy ice baths feel free to take the plunge our results show free to take the plunge our results show free to take the plunge our results show that while CWI which is cold water that while CWI which is cold water that while CWI which is cold water immersion does blunt hypertrophy you can immersion does blunt hypertrophy you can immersion does blunt hypertrophy you can still make some gains when employing the still make some gains when employing the still make some gains when employing the strategy ultimately adherence to exercis strategy ultimately adherence to exercis strategy ultimately adherence to exercis is Paramount to anything that keeps you is Paramount to anything that keeps you is Paramount to anything that keeps you in the gym is a plus and there are a in the gym is a plus and there are a in the gym is a plus and there are a plethora of health related benefits to plethora of health related benefits to plethora of health related benefits to resistance training which is you know resistance training which is you know resistance training which is you know again I'm just repeating what you just again I'm just repeating what you just again I'm just repeating what you just said before this is that it's it's about said before this is that it's it's about said before this is that it's it's about getting that getting that getting that consistency uh and I think to to build
17:00consistency uh and I think to to build consistency uh and I think to to build on this the question that I have for you on this the question that I have for you on this the question that I have for you is how do we think about the difference is how do we think about the difference is how do we think about the difference between scientific results that come in between scientific results that come in between scientific results that come in at their sort of slow pace uh and at their sort of slow pace uh and at their sort of slow pace uh and coaching philosophy where you're coaching philosophy where you're coaching philosophy where you're actually trying to motivate say a team actually trying to motivate say a team actually trying to motivate say a team or a specific bodybuilder to do it how or a specific bodybuilder to do it how or a specific bodybuilder to do it how do you get those like that motivation do you get those like that motivation do you get those like that motivation component to match up to um what the component to match up to um what the component to match up to um what the science says yeah so before answering science says yeah so before answering science says yeah so before answering that I do want to push back back a that I do want to push back back a that I do want to push back back a little on the point you made that it little on the point you made that it little on the point you made that it didn't seem to impede their gains the didn't seem to impede their gains the didn't seem to impede their gains the Jack people you know you don't know that Jack people you know you don't know that Jack people you know you don't know that I mean they might be jacked and they I mean they might be jacked and they I mean they might be jacked and they could have been more jacked if they had could have been more jacked if they had could have been more jacked if they had have done it so that's generally a have done it so that's generally a have done it so that's generally a logical fallacy that's often made with logical fallacy that's often made with logical fallacy that's often made with bodybuilders and they say oh that what bodybuilders and they say oh that what bodybuilders and they say oh that what he's doing has to be the best thing he's doing has to be the best thing he's doing has to be the best thing since you know since air conditioning since you know since air conditioning since you know since air conditioning and and it doesn't mean that that and and it doesn't mean that that and and it doesn't mean that that bodybuilder might not have gotten even bodybuilder might not have gotten even bodybuilder might not have gotten even better results uh if they had have done better results uh if they had have done better results uh if they had have done something else so it's
19:00there's some limitations to what you can get into from that standpoint but um get into from that standpoint but um get into from that standpoint but um ultimately number one uh the science is ultimately number one uh the science is ultimately number one uh the science is lagging what happens in the field lagging what happens in the field lagging what happens in the field because generally science progresses because generally science progresses because generally science progresses from what I want to study things that from what I want to study things that from what I want to study things that people are testing out athletes are people are testing out athletes are people are testing out athletes are testing out in the field so first they testing out in the field so first they testing out in the field so first they have to test them out and then the have to test them out and then the have to test them out and then the science will will try to look into that science will will try to look into that science will will try to look into that and you one study is only going to be a and you one study is only going to be a and you one study is only going to be a piece in a puzzle so you you need piece in a puzzle so you you need piece in a puzzle so you you need multiple studies and that can take a multiple studies and that can take a multiple studies and that can take a long time to ultimately develop that long time to ultimately develop that long time to ultimately develop that type of uh understanding from the type of uh understanding from the type of uh understanding from the science to have any strong conclusions science to have any strong conclusions science to have any strong conclusions so you then look at the strength of the so you then look at the strength of the so you then look at the strength of the evidence so with scient scientific evidence so with scient scientific evidence so with scient scientific evidence we can have anything from very evidence we can have anything from very evidence we can have anything from very weak evidence to very strong evidence um weak evidence to very strong evidence um weak evidence to very strong evidence um ma analyses often if they're properly ma analyses often if they're properly ma analyses often if they're properly carried out tend to provide stronger carried out tend to provide stronger carried out tend to provide stronger evidence because they're synthesizing evidence because they're synthesizing evidence because they're synthesizing the body of the literature but even then the body of the literature but even then the body of the literature but even then again and we've just hopefully covered
20:00again and we've just hopefully covered again and we've just hopefully covered uh that pretty well that uh there is uh that pretty well that uh there is uh that pretty well that uh there is going to be nuances to this um I I would going to be nuances to this um I I would going to be nuances to this um I I would point out I think this is another very point out I think this is another very point out I think this is another very important thing to to remember that important thing to to remember that important thing to to remember that um the uh when we look at something um the uh when we look at something um the uh when we look at something let's say a topic like CWI number one let's say a topic like CWI number one let's say a topic like CWI number one you could do it you could do it you could do it acutely uh it's not like we looked at it acutely uh it's not like we looked at it acutely uh it's not like we looked at it it was done the same time you know it was done the same time you know it was done the same time you know within 10 minutes or so post exercise within 10 minutes or so post exercise within 10 minutes or so post exercise every time number one you you can do it every time number one you you can do it every time number one you you can do it at different times that has been studied at different times that has been studied at different times that has been studied I have some doubts that it would matter I have some doubts that it would matter I have some doubts that it would matter uh but it might attenuate at least the uh but it might attenuate at least the uh but it might attenuate at least the impairments number two nothing says you impairments number two nothing says you impairments number two nothing says you have to do it after every workout so you have to do it after every workout so you have to do it after every workout so you might just decide to do it once look I'm might just decide to do it once look I'm might just decide to do it once look I'm feeling sore I want to try you know it feeling sore I want to try you know it feeling sore I want to try you know it makes me feel better uh and there's no makes me feel better uh and there's no makes me feel better uh and there's no evidence that doing it very occasionally evidence that doing it very occasionally evidence that doing it very occasionally once a month or so a couple times a once a month or so a couple times a once a month or so a couple times a month even would necessarily have any
21:00month even would necessarily have any month even would necessarily have any negative results on the other hand which negative results on the other hand which negative results on the other hand which is also interesting I'm not convinced in is also interesting I'm not convinced in is also interesting I'm not convinced in my review of the literature that CWI my review of the literature that CWI my review of the literature that CWI actually does anything to improve actually does anything to improve actually does anything to improve recovery um that the thought that it recovery um that the thought that it recovery um that the thought that it actually like I said the evidence on actually like I said the evidence on actually like I said the evidence on inflammation is uh equivocal and and inflammation is uh equivocal and and inflammation is uh equivocal and and again that could be a bad thing if it again that could be a bad thing if it again that could be a bad thing if it actually did uh suppress acute actually did uh suppress acute actually did uh suppress acute consistently uh suppress acute the acute consistently uh suppress acute the acute consistently uh suppress acute the acute inflammatory response but inflammatory response but inflammatory response but um it could just be a placebo Placebo um it could just be a placebo Placebo um it could just be a placebo Placebo for those who don't know is something for those who don't know is something for those who don't know is something that you think is H is helping you but that you think is H is helping you but that you think is H is helping you but there's really nothing no underlying there's really nothing no underlying there's really nothing no underlying effects no underlying uh um reason why effects no underlying uh um reason why effects no underlying uh um reason why it should do that and it's just a hard it should do that and it's just a hard it should do that and it's just a hard thing to sh you can't there there's thing to sh you can't there there's thing to sh you can't there there's what's called a sham uh under certain what's called a sham uh under certain what's called a sham uh under certain circumstances you can use a sham circumstances you can use a sham circumstances you can use a sham procedure happens all the time in procedure happens all the time in procedure happens all the time in supplements where you give someone supplements where you give someone supplements where you give someone here's the supplement you give and you here's the supplement you give and you here's the supplement you give and you give someone else like sugar water or
22:00give someone else like sugar water or give someone else like sugar water or something and they think they're getting something and they think they're getting something and they think they're getting you don't tell them which supplement you don't tell them which supplement you don't tell them which supplement they're getting so you're taking out they're getting so you're taking out they're getting so you're taking out that the mental effect that they think that the mental effect that they think that the mental effect that they think they are getting a benefit from it when they are getting a benefit from it when they are getting a benefit from it when you're doing CWI you know you're getting you're doing CWI you know you're getting you're doing CWI you know you're getting punched into a cold bath getting an ice punched into a cold bath getting an ice punched into a cold bath getting an ice bath you can't sham that uh so again it bath you can't sham that uh so again it bath you can't sham that uh so again it could be that this is just the placebo could be that this is just the placebo could be that this is just the placebo effect that people get in they're like effect that people get in they're like effect that people get in they're like oh my God this feels you know I'm I'm oh my God this feels you know I'm I'm oh my God this feels you know I'm I'm like I I can't move now I'm feeling like I I can't move now I'm feeling like I I can't move now I'm feeling something happening to my muscles and it something happening to my muscles and it something happening to my muscles and it also could just be that it temporarily also could just be that it temporarily also could just be that it temporarily is blunting that effect and that makes is blunting that effect and that makes is blunting that effect and that makes them feel they're recovering better so them feel they're recovering better so them feel they're recovering better so these are all things that need to be these are all things that need to be these are all things that need to be taken into account have you looked into taken into account have you looked into taken into account have you looked into any of the science around um people any of the science around um people any of the science around um people using cold exposure for weight loss um using cold exposure for weight loss um using cold exposure for weight loss um this is this is a you know this has been this is this is a you know this has been this is this is a you know this has been a big thing for many years and something a big thing for many years and something a big thing for many years and something that I've looked into and I've I've sort that I've looked into and I've I've sort that I've looked into and I've I've sort of come across in both way so there's of come across in both way so there's of come across in both way so there's for instance a lot of research on Brown
23:00for instance a lot of research on Brown for instance a lot of research on Brown fat Brown fat activation because Brown fat Brown fat activation because Brown fat Brown fat activation because Brown fat will supposedly suck calories from fat will supposedly suck calories from fat will supposedly suck calories from your body and could be used or or sorry your body and could be used or or sorry your body and could be used or or sorry will metabolize white fat for heat will metabolize white fat for heat will metabolize white fat for heat energy and then you know instigate energy and then you know instigate energy and then you know instigate weight loss and there's a lot of people weight loss and there's a lot of people weight loss and there's a lot of people selling protocols about how to do that selling protocols about how to do that selling protocols about how to do that um I have sort of begun to think that um I have sort of begun to think that um I have sort of begun to think that perhaps maybe acutely in the short term perhaps maybe acutely in the short term perhaps maybe acutely in the short term maybe there's a sort of increase energy maybe there's a sort of increase energy maybe there's a sort of increase energy expenditure which occurs with um cold expenditure which occurs with um cold expenditure which occurs with um cold water immersion but over the long term water immersion but over the long term water immersion but over the long term I'm noticing and this is purely I'm noticing and this is purely I'm noticing and this is purely anecdotal um I'm noticing people who anecdotal um I'm noticing people who anecdotal um I'm noticing people who have been doing this for a long time have been doing this for a long time have been doing this for a long time actually gaining a lot of weight over actually gaining a lot of weight over actually gaining a lot of weight over time because perhaps the body chooses to time because perhaps the body chooses to time because perhaps the body chooses to do an insulation strategy in response to do an insulation strategy in response to do an insulation strategy in response to extensive cold water instead of a um extensive cold water instead of a um extensive cold water instead of a um energy expenditure uh uh energy expenditure uh uh energy expenditure uh uh model yeah it's an interesting question model yeah it's an interesting question model yeah it's an interesting question I have not looked looked into that uh
24:00I have not looked looked into that uh I have not looked looked into that uh the research on that I so here's what the research on that I so here's what the research on that I so here's what I'll say there's certainly good research I'll say there's certainly good research I'll say there's certainly good research that shivering is a uh is a response that shivering is a uh is a response that shivering is a uh is a response that increases internal heat that increases internal heat that increases internal heat thermogenesis and thus uh can help with thermogenesis and thus uh can help with thermogenesis and thus uh can help with conceivably help with fat loss um I know conceivably help with fat loss um I know conceivably help with fat loss um I know there's been I remember a book going way there's been I remember a book going way there's been I remember a book going way back uh into the 90s I believe uh that back uh into the 90s I believe uh that back uh into the 90s I believe uh that promoted turning on your air conditioner promoted turning on your air conditioner promoted turning on your air conditioner really high so that you're you know really high so that you're you know really high so that you're you know shiver all the time to as a strategy to shiver all the time to as a strategy to shiver all the time to as a strategy to lose weight I think that's somewhat lose weight I think that's somewhat lose weight I think that's somewhat silly and not certainly nothing I would silly and not certainly nothing I would silly and not certainly nothing I would recommend there uh fun to to be to stay recommend there uh fun to to be to stay recommend there uh fun to to be to stay uncomfortable and have your teeth uncomfortable and have your teeth uncomfortable and have your teeth chattering all the time doesn't seem chattering all the time doesn't seem chattering all the time doesn't seem like a I think there are better ways to like a I think there are better ways to like a I think there are better ways to go about losing weight uh on the other go about losing weight uh on the other go about losing weight uh on the other hand there is I I know hand there is I I know hand there is I I know theoretically um being in cold water theoretically um being in cold water theoretically um being in cold water conceivably can cause the body to want conceivably can cause the body to want conceivably can cause the body to want to I think like you just pointed out uh to I think like you just pointed out uh to I think like you just pointed out uh insulate itself with fat I mean they use insulate itself with fat I mean they use insulate itself with fat I mean they use the example where seals you know develop
25:00the example where seals you know develop the example where seals you know develop this layer of blubber around them to this layer of blubber around them to this layer of blubber around them to insulate themselves from the cold insulate themselves from the cold insulate themselves from the cold weather so I'm not sure how that would weather so I'm not sure how that would weather so I'm not sure how that would play out I just think that that just play out I just think that that just play out I just think that that just logically to me that would not be a logically to me that would not be a logically to me that would not be a strategy that I think would be tenable strategy that I think would be tenable strategy that I think would be tenable or when I say tenable I just think it or when I say tenable I just think it or when I say tenable I just think it would be a the wrong way to go about would be a the wrong way to go about would be a the wrong way to go about losing weight I think that there are losing weight I think that there are losing weight I think that there are much easier strategies that aren't as owners let's want to get a little um owners let's want to get a little um more General here for a second you have more General here for a second you have more General here for a second you have a long career in in the the muscle a long career in in the the muscle a long career in in the the muscle gaining and fitness space and you've gaining and fitness space and you've gaining and fitness space and you've seen a lot of Trends come and go in that seen a lot of Trends come and go in that seen a lot of Trends come and go in that time what would you say makes Fitness time what would you say makes Fitness time what would you say makes Fitness Trends take off and what are their time Trends take off and what are their time Trends take off and what are their time Horizons in reality like you know that Horizons in reality like you know that Horizons in reality like you know that you might be doing something for five you might be doing something for five you might be doing something for five years 10 years or whatever and they're years 10 years or whatever and they're years 10 years or whatever and they're like oh no that was terrible and we get like oh no that was terrible and we get like oh no that was terrible and we get to a new paradigm I guess you could say to a new paradigm I guess you could say to a new paradigm I guess you could say do you have any insight to what makes
26:00do you have any insight to what makes do you have any insight to what makes things take off and and how things things take off and and how things things take off and and how things change over time yeah so usually or I change over time yeah so usually or I change over time yeah so usually or I should at least say often TR quote should at least say often TR quote should at least say often TR quote unquote Trends uh manifest through unquote Trends uh manifest through unquote Trends uh manifest through celebrities uh doing things that's uh celebrities uh doing things that's uh celebrities uh doing things that's uh quite often at least um brought into quite often at least um brought into quite often at least um brought into public attention through celebrities public attention through celebrities public attention through celebrities with social media now there's uh it's with social media now there's uh it's with social media now there's uh it's we're kind of changing into a society we're kind of changing into a society we're kind of changing into a society that Tik Tock influencers Etc can drive that Tik Tock influencers Etc can drive that Tik Tock influencers Etc can drive these typ types of Trends um usually it these typ types of Trends um usually it these typ types of Trends um usually it involves in the fitness field people involves in the fitness field people involves in the fitness field people that are jacked uh you know that that that are jacked uh you know that that that are jacked uh you know that that looked the part that are taking their looked the part that are taking their looked the part that are taking their shirt off and um but uh other I mean shirt off and um but uh other I mean shirt off and um but uh other I mean certainly there are health related certainly there are health related certainly there are health related factors that can be uh promoted factors that can be uh promoted factors that can be uh promoted through um sometimes unscrupulous through um sometimes unscrupulous through um sometimes unscrupulous sometimes well-meaning uh Educators but sometimes well-meaning uh Educators but sometimes well-meaning uh Educators but sometimes people that just want to earn sometimes people that just want to earn sometimes people that just want to earn money and and have credentials that money and and have credentials that money and and have credentials that would give themselves uh cache as far as
27:00would give themselves uh cache as far as would give themselves uh cache as far as someone to turn to and how long do they someone to turn to and how long do they someone to turn to and how long do they last uh it would depend on the I think last uh it would depend on the I think last uh it would depend on the I think fed often is a better word because Trend fed often is a better word because Trend fed often is a better word because Trend can be I mean there are there are things can be I mean there are there are things can be I mean there are there are things certainly shifts Paradigm shifts that certainly shifts Paradigm shifts that certainly shifts Paradigm shifts that are uh not I wouldn't call Trends they are uh not I wouldn't call Trends they are uh not I wouldn't call Trends they are based on science I mean I'll give are based on science I mean I'll give are based on science I mean I'll give you one that I've been heavily involved you one that I've been heavily involved you one that I've been heavily involved in is the uh Focus now that you don't in is the uh Focus now that you don't in is the uh Focus now that you don't necessarily need to lift heavy loads to necessarily need to lift heavy loads to necessarily need to lift heavy loads to make to build muscle I mean there when I make to build muscle I mean there when I make to build muscle I mean there when I was an upand cominging exercise was an upand cominging exercise was an upand cominging exercise scientist it was promoted that and scientist it was promoted that and scientist it was promoted that and preached that you needed to lift heavy preached that you needed to lift heavy preached that you needed to lift heavy and that if you lifted lightweights and that if you lifted lightweights and that if you lifted lightweights basically you were not going to build basically you were not going to build basically you were not going to build muscle it was glorified cardio and we muscle it was glorified cardio and we muscle it was glorified cardio and we now have compelling evidence our lab has now have compelling evidence our lab has now have compelling evidence our lab has carried out a lot of research in this carried out a lot of research in this carried out a lot of research in this but many others have as well that uh but many others have as well that uh but many others have as well that uh loading across a wide spectrum of of loading across a wide spectrum of of loading across a wide spectrum of of zones of um loading zones repetition zones of um loading zones repetition zones of um loading zones repetition ranges can promote similar whole muscle ranges can promote similar whole muscle ranges can promote similar whole muscle hypertrophy to heavy loads provided that hypertrophy to heavy loads provided that hypertrophy to heavy loads provided that you train close to failure that you are
28:00you train close to failure that you are you train close to failure that you are lifting with a high level of effort so lifting with a high level of effort so lifting with a high level of effort so so there are things there are Paradigm so there are things there are Paradigm so there are things there are Paradigm shifts when when I would talk about a shifts when when I would talk about a shifts when when I would talk about a paradigm shift it's something that is paradigm shift it's something that is paradigm shift it's something that is happening because there is evidence to happening because there is evidence to happening because there is evidence to support that other things uh you know support that other things uh you know support that other things uh you know become fads if you will uh and that become fads if you will uh and that become fads if you will uh and that those usually have somewhat short shelf those usually have somewhat short shelf those usually have somewhat short shelf lives usually a couple years or so so it lives usually a couple years or so so it lives usually a couple years or so so it depends what you call it that or not you depends what you call it that or not you depends what you call it that or not you know earlier you had mentioned when I know earlier you had mentioned when I know earlier you had mentioned when I asked you this sort of like very leading asked you this sort of like very leading asked you this sort of like very leading question uh which was what's the best question uh which was what's the best question uh which was what's the best way to build muscle you had an way to build muscle you had an way to build muscle you had an interesting uh way to frame the response interesting uh way to frame the response interesting uh way to frame the response where you said well you know what is where you said well you know what is where you said well you know what is optimal for you I can't tell and then optimal for you I can't tell and then optimal for you I can't tell and then it's it's obviously equivocal based on a it's it's obviously equivocal based on a it's it's obviously equivocal based on a number of factors and yet there are also number of factors and yet there are also number of factors and yet there are also an entire world of fitness influencers an entire world of fitness influencers an entire world of fitness influencers and and protocols and all these things and and protocols and all these things and and protocols and all these things which tell you about how to optimize which tell you about how to optimize which tell you about how to optimize yourself um sort of like that's that's yourself um sort of like that's that's yourself um sort of like that's that's the like if I if I named this video Brad
29:00the like if I if I named this video Brad the like if I if I named this video Brad shenfeld keys to shenfeld keys to shenfeld keys to optimizing muscle gains and or cold optimizing muscle gains and or cold optimizing muscle gains and or cold water exposure and or whatever uh it's water exposure and or whatever uh it's water exposure and or whatever uh it's gonna get a lot of gonna get a lot of gonna get a lot of interest why you wouldn't do that though interest why you wouldn't do that though interest why you wouldn't do that though right no no no no we're not gonna do right no no no no we're not gonna do right no no no no we're not gonna do that we're not gonna do that um because that we're not gonna do that um because that we're not gonna do that um because I personally my take well let me not I personally my take well let me not I personally my take well let me not tell you my take I want to hear your tell you my take I want to hear your tell you my take I want to hear your take what what is going on with this take what what is going on with this take what what is going on with this this uh desire to to optimize everything this uh desire to to optimize everything this uh desire to to optimize everything so It ultimately depends what the goal so It ultimately depends what the goal so It ultimately depends what the goal of the individual is so from a fitness of the individual is so from a fitness of the individual is so from a fitness standpoint uh if you're talking about standpoint uh if you're talking about standpoint uh if you're talking about hypertrophy if you're a bodybuilder hypertrophy if you're a bodybuilder hypertrophy if you're a bodybuilder optimization is optimization is optimization is everything uh that's going to be the everything uh that's going to be the everything uh that's going to be the difference between you winning difference between you winning difference between you winning potentially winning or losing your potentially winning or losing your potentially winning or losing your competition being an also rant for the competition being an also rant for the competition being an also rant for the average individual they might not care average individual they might not care average individual they might not care about optim it their goal hypertrophy about optim it their goal hypertrophy about optim it their goal hypertrophy might be completely secondary or might be completely secondary or might be completely secondary or irrelevant to them if you're a distance irrelevant to them if you're a distance irrelevant to them if you're a distance Runner hypertrophy not wouldn't be a Runner hypertrophy not wouldn't be a Runner hypertrophy not wouldn't be a goal it would be a negative maybe you
30:00goal it would be a negative maybe you goal it would be a negative maybe you want to do want to do want to do CWI uh somewhat joking but you know yeah CWI uh somewhat joking but you know yeah CWI uh somewhat joking but you know yeah you there's no uh no benefit and you there's no uh no benefit and you there's no uh no benefit and actually some detriments potentially actually some detriments potentially actually some detriments potentially hyper so ultimately optimization only hyper so ultimately optimization only hyper so ultimately optimization only matters if you're interested in matters if you're interested in matters if you're interested in optimizing that factor and then it also optimizing that factor and then it also optimizing that factor and then it also has to come into play as to what are you has to come into play as to what are you has to come into play as to what are you willing to do for the optimization so willing to do for the optimization so willing to do for the optimization so there's a cost benefit to everything uh there's a cost benefit to everything uh there's a cost benefit to everything uh I can tell you what will optimize or I I can tell you what will optimize or I I can tell you what will optimize or I can give you guidelines what will can give you guidelines what will can give you guidelines what will optimize hypertrophy you might not have optimize hypertrophy you might not have optimize hypertrophy you might not have the desire or the time to put in the the desire or the time to put in the the desire or the time to put in the necessary time and effort to achieving necessary time and effort to achieving necessary time and effort to achieving that so if I tell you hey look here are that so if I tell you hey look here are that so if I tell you hey look here are the guidelines to optimize hypert and the guidelines to optimize hypert and the guidelines to optimize hypert and you're going to need to train X number you're going to need to train X number you're going to need to train X number of days a week for X number of hours of days a week for X number of hours of days a week for X number of hours it's like I only have two hours a week it's like I only have two hours a week it's like I only have two hours a week to train well that's nice but you're not to train well that's nice but you're not to train well that's nice but you're not you then are not going to be a candidate you then are not going to be a candidate you then are not going to be a candidate for optimization so it's say look health for optimization so it's say look health for optimization so it's say look health I think everyone wants to conceivably I think everyone wants to conceivably I think everyone wants to conceivably optimize their health um but you know optimize their health um but you know optimize their health um but you know what are you willing to do and how what are you willing to do and how what are you willing to do and how important is that optimization versus
31:00important is that optimization versus important is that optimization versus getting that right I'm pretty close to getting that right I'm pretty close to getting that right I'm pretty close to optimizing because you're never going to optimizing because you're never going to optimizing because you're never going to know anyway like optimization as I know anyway like optimization as I know anyway like optimization as I mentioned always in virtually every uh mentioned always in virtually every uh mentioned always in virtually every uh outcome you're going to look at outcome you're going to look at outcome you're going to look at including health will be specific to the including health will be specific to the including health will be specific to the individual uh some of this is is a individual uh some of this is is a individual uh some of this is is a little beyond my area of expertise but little beyond my area of expertise but little beyond my area of expertise but when you're talking about like uh a when you're talking about like uh a when you're talking about like uh a atherosclerosis the buildup of plaques atherosclerosis the buildup of plaques atherosclerosis the buildup of plaques from my readings of the literature some from my readings of the literature some from my readings of the literature some people oxidize low density lipoproteins people oxidize low density lipoproteins people oxidize low density lipoproteins very readily and some don't so some very readily and some don't so some very readily and some don't so some people may be more prone to to people may be more prone to to people may be more prone to to atherosclerosis by eating saturated fat atherosclerosis by eating saturated fat atherosclerosis by eating saturated fat where others wouldn't and and that's where others wouldn't and and that's where others wouldn't and and that's just a basic example where you can't just a basic example where you can't just a basic example where you can't give a one-size my point is you not give a one-size my point is you not give a one-size my point is you not can't necessarily give a one- siiz can't necessarily give a one- siiz can't necessarily give a one- siiz fits-all optimization strategy uh and fits-all optimization strategy uh and fits-all optimization strategy uh and then ultimately are they willing to eat then ultimately are they willing to eat then ultimately are they willing to eat the way they need to are they willing the way they need to are they willing the way they need to are they willing to sleep the way they need to Etc to to sleep the way they need to Etc to to sleep the way they need to Etc to achieve and it seems It's seems to achieve and it seems It's seems to achieve and it seems It's seems to require a great deal of almost you could
32:00require a great deal of almost you could require a great deal of almost you could say hypervigilance like the especially say hypervigilance like the especially say hypervigilance like the especially in sort of the public media this idea in sort of the public media this idea in sort of the public media this idea that you can optimize by taking a that you can optimize by taking a that you can optimize by taking a certain supplement protocol a certain certain supplement protocol a certain certain supplement protocol a certain you know a stack of neurotransmitters you know a stack of neurotransmitters you know a stack of neurotransmitters and then hyper look at your diet and and and then hyper look at your diet and and and then hyper look at your diet and and these are people who are maybe not these are people who are maybe not these are people who are maybe not trying to get that last one or two per trying to get that last one or two per trying to get that last one or two per that optimal really gets you but they're that optimal really gets you but they're that optimal really gets you but they're they're trying to go from I don't know they're trying to go from I don't know they're trying to go from I don't know 50% optimal whatever that means up to 50% optimal whatever that means up to 50% optimal whatever that means up to Better Health and they're and they're Better Health and they're and they're Better Health and they're and they're sort of trying to be race cars they're sort of trying to be race cars they're sort of trying to be race cars they're trying to be to get that last 2% when trying to be to get that last 2% when trying to be to get that last 2% when these bigger gains can be be maintained these bigger gains can be be maintained these bigger gains can be be maintained by as you say in your paper being by as you say in your paper being by as you say in your paper being consistent right like Optimal might just consistent right like Optimal might just consistent right like Optimal might just be be consistent in the stuff you do uh be be consistent in the stuff you do uh be be consistent in the stuff you do uh versus you know I've always been worried versus you know I've always been worried versus you know I've always been worried about media influencers with their six about media influencers with their six about media influencers with their six packs and there you know like lared packs and there you know like lared packs and there you know like lared Hamilton who I actually really like as a Hamilton who I actually really like as a Hamilton who I actually really like as a person I think he's great um but people person I think he's great um but people person I think he's great um but people are to be lared Hamilton it's like well are to be lared Hamilton it's like well are to be lared Hamilton it's like well why would I want to be lared Hamilton or
33:00why would I want to be lared Hamilton or why would I want to be lared Hamilton or Michael Jordan or whoever else I am Michael Jordan or whoever else I am Michael Jordan or whoever else I am never going to get there I shouldn't try never going to get there I shouldn't try never going to get there I shouldn't try to imitate their Fitness plans yeah and to imitate their Fitness plans yeah and to imitate their Fitness plans yeah and I I can tell you it's a really great I I can tell you it's a really great I I can tell you it's a really great point from I'll speak specifically in my point from I'll speak specifically in my point from I'll speak specifically in my area of expertise which is muscle area of expertise which is muscle area of expertise which is muscle building you can achieve a majority of building you can achieve a majority of building you can achieve a majority of your gains muscular gains strength gains your gains muscular gains strength gains your gains muscular gains strength gains Etc from a Etc from a Etc from a minimalistic as long as you're minimalistic as long as you're minimalistic as long as you're consistent you know two three days a consistent you know two three days a consistent you know two three days a week uh half hour 45 minute sessions uh week uh half hour 45 minute sessions uh week uh half hour 45 minute sessions uh so you're talking an hour hour and a so you're talking an hour hour and a so you're talking an hour hour and a half to two hours a week uh provided you half to two hours a week uh provided you half to two hours a week uh provided you are consistent and you train hard that are consistent and you train hard that are consistent and you train hard that you're training relatively close to you're training relatively close to you're training relatively close to failure the majority of your gains will failure the majority of your gains will failure the majority of your gains will be achieved so everything else again the be achieved so everything else again the be achieved so everything else again the optimization comes yeah if you want to optimization comes yeah if you want to optimization comes yeah if you want to be a bodybuilder or gain more you know be a bodybuilder or gain more you know be a bodybuilder or gain more you know achieve your genetic potential you're achieve your genetic potential you're achieve your genetic potential you're going to need to do more than that but I going to need to do more than that but I going to need to do more than that but I I also to your point from a I also to your point from a I also to your point from a supplementation uh supplementation uh supplementation uh standpoint when with respect to muscle
34:00standpoint when with respect to muscle standpoint when with respect to muscle building and and strength gains building and and strength gains building and and strength gains generally resistance training based generally resistance training based generally resistance training based gains supplementation is the cherry on gains supplementation is the cherry on gains supplementation is the cherry on the Sunday the proverbial Sunday uh it's the Sunday the proverbial Sunday uh it's the Sunday the proverbial Sunday uh it's F less than five% for the most part of F less than five% for the most part of F less than five% for the most part of your gain so it's going to give you at your gain so it's going to give you at your gain so it's going to give you at most a small Edge yeah if you're a most a small Edge yeah if you're a most a small Edge yeah if you're a bodybuilder that can be a meaningful bodybuilder that can be a meaningful bodybuilder that can be a meaningful Edge um but certainly like you said it's Edge um but certainly like you said it's Edge um but certainly like you said it's the majority of it is training hard get the majority of it is training hard get the majority of it is training hard get getting proper nutrition particularly getting proper nutrition particularly getting proper nutrition particularly getting uh the optimal amount of protein getting uh the optimal amount of protein getting uh the optimal amount of protein or the necessary amount of protein in or the necessary amount of protein in or the necessary amount of protein in and getting proper rest and and and getting proper rest and and and getting proper rest and and Recovery how would you say in in in the Recovery how would you say in in in the Recovery how would you say in in in the world of sort of Fitness science and world of sort of Fitness science and world of sort of Fitness science and maybe to some degree Health Science in maybe to some degree Health Science in maybe to some degree Health Science in general but we'll just stick to Fitness general but we'll just stick to Fitness general but we'll just stick to Fitness for you right now how do we think for you right now how do we think for you right now how do we think rationally about scientific evidence rationally about scientific evidence rationally about scientific evidence like how do we spot things that are hype like how do we spot things that are hype like how do we spot things that are hype and how does we spot things that are oh and how does we spot things that are oh and how does we spot things that are oh yeah is actually a really important yeah is actually a really important yeah is actually a really important result because I I I feel like the
35:00result because I I I feel like the result because I I I feel like the comments in my my YouTube videos are comments in my my YouTube videos are comments in my my YouTube videos are often people who are just really really often people who are just really really often people who are just really really confused uh even when somebody has PhD confused uh even when somebody has PhD confused uh even when somebody has PhD at the end of their name because I feel at the end of their name because I feel at the end of their name because I feel like like like personally I want to be open enough to personally I want to be open enough to personally I want to be open enough to try new things like I want to be like oh try new things like I want to be like oh try new things like I want to be like oh cool there's a new idea I want to see if cool there's a new idea I want to see if cool there's a new idea I want to see if I can go try this and and and maybe I can go try this and and and maybe I can go try this and and and maybe that's a key to progress on the other that's a key to progress on the other that's a key to progress on the other hand a lot of that's flimflam and I have hand a lot of that's flimflam and I have hand a lot of that's flimflam and I have been burned several times when I've been burned several times when I've been burned several times when I've tried to be open about things so how do tried to be open about things so how do tried to be open about things so how do you as a person or as a scientist how do you as a person or as a scientist how do you as a person or as a scientist how do you navigate this or or at least what you navigate this or or at least what you navigate this or or at least what would you recommend other people do to would you recommend other people do to would you recommend other people do to navigate that yeah so I think and this navigate that yeah so I think and this navigate that yeah so I think and this is uh again one of my hobby horses is is uh again one of my hobby horses is is uh again one of my hobby horses is that uh most people do not have proper that uh most people do not have proper that uh most people do not have proper are not taught proper critical thinking are not taught proper critical thinking are not taught proper critical thinking skills I think that is a fault certainly skills I think that is a fault certainly skills I think that is a fault certainly in the US I don't know in other in the US I don't know in other in the US I don't know in other countries but certainly here in the US countries but certainly here in the US countries but certainly here in the US it's a fault of the uh system our school it's a fault of the uh system our school it's a fault of the uh system our school system we teach teach math we teach uh system we teach teach math we teach uh system we teach teach math we teach uh science we teach you know the basic
36:00science we teach you know the basic science we teach you know the basic history but we don't teach people how to history but we don't teach people how to history but we don't teach people how to think critically uh about many of these think critically uh about many of these think critically uh about many of these things and having a basic understanding things and having a basic understanding things and having a basic understanding of the scientific method and and of the scientific method and and of the scientific method and and critical thinking skills I think should critical thinking skills I think should critical thinking skills I think should be a part of the uh education process be a part of the uh education process be a part of the uh education process I'm that's my get I'll get off my I'm that's my get I'll get off my I'm that's my get I'll get off my soapbox now um but with that said you soapbox now um but with that said you soapbox now um but with that said you need to devel if you don't have that you need to devel if you don't have that you need to devel if you don't have that you need to develop that if you really want need to develop that if you really want need to develop that if you really want to understand that ultim or ultimately to understand that ultim or ultimately to understand that ultim or ultimately you're going to be prone towards you're going to be prone towards you're going to be prone towards the endless amount of husters that are the endless amount of husters that are the endless amount of husters that are on social media and and look with that on social media and and look with that on social media and and look with that said there's also plenty of really uh said there's also plenty of really uh said there's also plenty of really uh people that I I really look up to and people that I I really look up to and people that I I really look up to and admire and and call colleagues on social admire and and call colleagues on social admire and and call colleagues on social media as well are trying to do good media as well are trying to do good media as well are trying to do good things but often they get overshadowed things but often they get overshadowed things but often they get overshadowed by the you know one plus million uh by the you know one plus million uh by the you know one plus million uh follower influencers who are not and follower influencers who are not and follower influencers who are not and basically they're the people that take basically they're the people that take basically they're the people that take their shirts off from a fitness their shirts off from a fitness their shirts off from a fitness standpoint um and I think understand if standpoint um and I think understand if standpoint um and I think understand if you're not going to have the critical
37:00you're not going to have the critical you're not going to have the critical thinking skills you need to be able to thinking skills you need to be able to thinking skills you need to be able to identify those who are not out for uh to identify those who are not out for uh to identify those who are not out for uh to sell you some you know bill of goods if sell you some you know bill of goods if sell you some you know bill of goods if you will and that uh just are looking to you will and that uh just are looking to you will and that uh just are looking to convey science uh so it is it is tough convey science uh so it is it is tough convey science uh so it is it is tough and look I I think uh so if you're and look I I think uh so if you're and look I I think uh so if you're asking me in an area that I'm not uh of asking me in an area that I'm not uh of asking me in an area that I'm not uh of sufficient expertise I try to identify sufficient expertise I try to identify sufficient expertise I try to identify those who are uh researchers in the those who are uh researchers in the those who are uh researchers in the field people who would who again I have field people who would who again I have field people who would who again I have certainly very good critical thinking certainly very good critical thinking certainly very good critical thinking skills and can can make that leap to to skills and can can make that leap to to skills and can can make that leap to to understand who they are but also who are understand who they are but also who are understand who they are but also who are ready and willing to communicate ideas ready and willing to communicate ideas ready and willing to communicate ideas in a somewhat consumer friendly fashion in a somewhat consumer friendly fashion in a somewhat consumer friendly fashion because many of the topics they they can because many of the topics they they can because many of the topics they they can be talking in their Ivory Tower to other be talking in their Ivory Tower to other be talking in their Ivory Tower to other uh you know other doctoral other phds uh you know other doctoral other phds uh you know other doctoral other phds researchers in their own area of researchers in their own area of researchers in their own area of expertise which I'm if you're talking expertise which I'm if you're talking expertise which I'm if you're talking rocket science I'm not going to rocket science I'm not going to rocket science I'm not going to understand that lingo understand that lingo understand that lingo so I would need someone that's going to so I would need someone that's going to so I would need someone that's going to be able to communicate that in a fairly
38:00be able to communicate that in a fairly be able to communicate that in a fairly consumer friendly fashion my heris stic consumer friendly fashion my heris stic consumer friendly fashion my heris stic for trying to understand whether for trying to understand whether for trying to understand whether somebody's going to be uh okay or not somebody's going to be uh okay or not somebody's going to be uh okay or not like somebody to take advice is I I like somebody to take advice is I I like somebody to take advice is I I check to see if they sell products Andor check to see if they sell products Andor check to see if they sell products Andor supplements because I feel like if supplements because I feel like if supplements because I feel like if someone sells a supplement they're someone sells a supplement they're someone sells a supplement they're probably not real they're probably probably not real they're probably probably not real they're probably influenced by the products that they influenced by the products that they influenced by the products that they sell that's my heuristic when I go out sell that's my heuristic when I go out sell that's my heuristic when I go out and I look at people because so easy to and I look at people because so easy to and I look at people because so easy to get conflicts of interest out there um get conflicts of interest out there um get conflicts of interest out there um especially since some of these people especially since some of these people especially since some of these people are pulling in literally millions of are pulling in literally millions of are pulling in literally millions of dollars um for instance with ag1 dollars um for instance with ag1 dollars um for instance with ag1 athletic greens um millions of dollars athletic greens um millions of dollars athletic greens um millions of dollars might come in from that they have every might come in from that they have every might come in from that they have every incentive to follow the money in favor incentive to follow the money in favor incentive to follow the money in favor in favor of what the science actually in favor of what the science actually in favor of what the science actually says or maybe they will just reinterpret says or maybe they will just reinterpret says or maybe they will just reinterpret the science to be more favorable yeah the science to be more favorable yeah the science to be more favorable yeah look conflicts of interest in that in look conflicts of interest in that in look conflicts of interest in that in this type of thing can be uh an issue this type of thing can be uh an issue this type of thing can be uh an issue um I I don't judge people for how they
39:00um I I don't judge people for how they um I I don't judge people for how they want to make money but that certainly want to make money but that certainly want to make money but that certainly would be something you would take into would be something you would take into would be something you would take into account and yes I do not sell account and yes I do not sell account and yes I do not sell supplements and I I wouldn't excellent supplements and I I wouldn't excellent supplements and I I wouldn't excellent yeah I don't sell any supplements either yeah I don't sell any supplements either yeah I don't sell any supplements either um so uh there we go um anyway thank you um so uh there we go um anyway thank you um so uh there we go um anyway thank you so much for being on the show uh I so much for being on the show uh I so much for being on the show uh I really appreciate you taking the time really appreciate you taking the time really appreciate you taking the time and you know sort of giving your wisdom and you know sort of giving your wisdom and you know sort of giving your wisdom um to my audience and uh if people are um to my audience and uh if people are um to my audience and uh if people are going to go find you on the internet I'm going to go find you on the internet I'm going to go find you on the internet I'm going to put a link down to your blog going to put a link down to your blog going to put a link down to your blog post about um CWI down below but where post about um CWI down below but where post about um CWI down below but where else should they look for you I would else should they look for you I would else should they look for you I would just say Google me um I'm on Instagram just say Google me um I'm on Instagram just say Google me um I'm on Instagram Twitter in particular but yeah you Twitter in particular but yeah you Twitter in particular but yeah you Google me you'll get all the all the Google me you'll get all the all the Google me you'll get all the all the info you need awesome all right well I info you need awesome all right well I info you need awesome all right well I really appreciate you being on here and really appreciate you being on here and really appreciate you being on here and from poke bear LLC in Denver Colorado from poke bear LLC in Denver Colorado from poke bear LLC in Denver Colorado this was Scott Carney this was Scott Carney this was Scott Carney investigates