SPECIAL GUEST MOULTON AVERY founder and director of the National Center for Cold
00:00hello everyone and welcome to the dub hello everyone and welcome to the dub cast with Dub Side the podcast where we cast with Dub Side the podcast where we cast with Dub Side the podcast where we talk about the art of Greenland style talk about the art of Greenland style talk about the art of Greenland style kayaking kayaking kayaking I'm Andrew lazaga and I'll be your host I'm Andrew lazaga and I'll be your host I'm Andrew lazaga and I'll be your host for this special episode for this special episode for this special episode today I'm very excited to be today I'm very excited to be today I'm very excited to be interviewing mom Avery an interviewing mom Avery an interviewing mom Avery an internationally recognized Authority on internationally recognized Authority on internationally recognized Authority on cold water safety Bolton is the founder cold water safety Bolton is the founder cold water safety Bolton is the founder and director of the national Center for and director of the national Center for and director of the national Center for cold water safety and has been a key cold water safety and has been a key cold water safety and has been a key figure in promoting cold water safety figure in promoting cold water safety figure in promoting cold water safety for over 40 years for over 40 years for over 40 years he has developed and taught courses on he has developed and taught courses on he has developed and taught courses on Wilderness survival and has authored Wilderness survival and has authored Wilderness survival and has authored numerous articles on the subject of heat numerous articles on the subject of heat numerous articles on the subject of heat and cold stress Bolton's work has been and cold stress Bolton's work has been and cold stress Bolton's work has been featured nationally in hundreds of featured nationally in hundreds of featured nationally in hundreds of newspaper articles radio programs and newspaper articles radio programs and newspaper articles radio programs and television shows he was a founding television shows he was a founding television shows he was a founding member of the American canoe member of the American canoe member of the American canoe association's National Coastal Kai association's National Coastal Kai association's National Coastal Kai committee and contributed to the committee and contributed to the committee and contributed to the development of the aca's coastal development of the aca's coastal development of the aca's coastal kayaking program kayaking program kayaking program Bolton also happens to be a Greenland
01:00Bolton also happens to be a Greenland Bolton also happens to be a Greenland style Enthusiast and a good friend of style Enthusiast and a good friend of style Enthusiast and a good friend of debsight debsight debsight welcome molten and thanks so much for welcome molten and thanks so much for welcome molten and thanks so much for agreeing to be on the dub cast agreeing to be on the dub cast agreeing to be on the dub cast well thank you so much for having me I well thank you so much for having me I well thank you so much for having me I really appreciate it and I'm looking really appreciate it and I'm looking really appreciate it and I'm looking forward to speaking with you about all forward to speaking with you about all forward to speaking with you about all those things you said [Music] okay so to start off with could you tell okay so to start off with could you tell us a little bit more about your us a little bit more about your us a little bit more about your background and how you became an expert background and how you became an expert background and how you became an expert in the field of wilderness survival and in the field of wilderness survival and in the field of wilderness survival and heat and cold stress heat and cold stress heat and cold stress well I uh I was a city boy and I really well I uh I was a city boy and I really well I uh I was a city boy and I really didn't know much of anything about how didn't know much of anything about how didn't know much of anything about how to get along in the outdoors and when I to get along in the outdoors and when I to get along in the outdoors and when I started college my mom had died and that started college my mom had died and that started college my mom had died and that kind of orphaned my brother and sister kind of orphaned my brother and sister kind of orphaned my brother and sister and I and and I and and I and I I would say you could I I would say you could I I would say you could you could characterize me as a guy who you could characterize me as a guy who you could characterize me as a guy who had a chip on his shoulder the size of had a chip on his shoulder the size of had a chip on his shoulder the size of Rhode Island and Rhode Island and Rhode Island and as it turned out the place that I found
02:00as it turned out the place that I found as it turned out the place that I found uh some respite uh from you know that uh some respite uh from you know that uh some respite uh from you know that anger and that anger and that anger and that that sadness was in the outdoors that sadness was in the outdoors that sadness was in the outdoors and I just had the Good Fortune of and I just had the Good Fortune of and I just had the Good Fortune of running into a book by an Englishman by running into a book by an Englishman by running into a book by an Englishman by the name of Colin Fletcher and he wrote the name of Colin Fletcher and he wrote the name of Colin Fletcher and he wrote this book called The Complete Walker and this book called The Complete Walker and this book called The Complete Walker and his whole idea was he was he was pushing his whole idea was he was he was pushing his whole idea was he was he was pushing backpacking so the idea was you could backpacking so the idea was you could backpacking so the idea was you could carry your house on your back and I carry your house on your back and I carry your house on your back and I thought well this is just marvelous I thought well this is just marvelous I thought well this is just marvelous I was hooked but was hooked but was hooked but uh there's a difference between book uh there's a difference between book uh there's a difference between book learning and practical experience you learning and practical experience you learning and practical experience you know they know they know they they have a nice uh a nice relationship they have a nice uh a nice relationship they have a nice uh a nice relationship but somehow in his book but somehow in his book but somehow in his book I missed the idea of rain gear and I was I missed the idea of rain gear and I was I missed the idea of rain gear and I was ambitious so I'd gone out to Sears and I ambitious so I'd gone out to Sears and I ambitious so I'd gone out to Sears and I I picked up a backpack and a line of I picked up a backpack and a line of I picked up a backpack and a line of stuff that they had that carried Edmund stuff that they had that carried Edmund stuff that they had that carried Edmund Hillary's name you know a guy from
03:00Hillary's name you know a guy from Hillary's name you know a guy from Everest and so they were like Hillary Everest and so they were like Hillary Everest and so they were like Hillary backpack Hillary sleeping bag it was backpack Hillary sleeping bag it was backpack Hillary sleeping bag it was awful gear awful gear awful gear but it got me started but I was I was but it got me started but I was I was but it got me started but I was I was ambitious ambitious ambitious um a little too ambitious and I picked um a little too ambitious and I picked um a little too ambitious and I picked for my first hike the Appalachian Trail for my first hike the Appalachian Trail for my first hike the Appalachian Trail along the crest of the Great Smoky along the crest of the Great Smoky along the crest of the Great Smoky Mountains in North Carolina and that Mountains in North Carolina and that Mountains in North Carolina and that runs around 6 000 feet and the part that runs around 6 000 feet and the part that runs around 6 000 feet and the part that I missed was that above 4 500 feet I missed was that above 4 500 feet I missed was that above 4 500 feet in the Smokies it's a temperate rain in the Smokies it's a temperate rain in the Smokies it's a temperate rain forest forest forest it gets almost as much rain as the it gets almost as much rain as the it gets almost as much rain as the Pacific Northwest and so predictably you Pacific Northwest and so predictably you Pacific Northwest and so predictably you know I got a little bit above 4 000 feet know I got a little bit above 4 000 feet know I got a little bit above 4 000 feet and it started raining and it started raining and it started raining and I didn't have any rain gear oh wow and I didn't have any rain gear oh wow and I didn't have any rain gear oh wow but one of the things that you couldn't but one of the things that you couldn't but one of the things that you couldn't miss with Colin Fletcher's book was a miss with Colin Fletcher's book was a miss with Colin Fletcher's book was a tarp because it was on the front page of tarp because it was on the front page of tarp because it was on the front page of the book and he had all his gear laid the book and he had all his gear laid the book and he had all his gear laid out on it so I had gotten a tarp I set out on it so I had gotten a tarp I set out on it so I had gotten a tarp I set it up over the trail because what else it up over the trail because what else it up over the trail because what else can I do can I do can I do and that was my baptism in the
04:00and that was my baptism in the and that was my baptism in the wilderness in the sense that wilderness in the sense that wilderness in the sense that I realized there was a lot more to it I realized there was a lot more to it I realized there was a lot more to it and a lot I didn't understand and a lot I didn't understand and a lot I didn't understand and also and also and also that you could really get into trouble that you could really get into trouble that you could really get into trouble because I spent the entire night sitting because I spent the entire night sitting because I spent the entire night sitting on top of my my pack and there's a on top of my my pack and there's a on top of my my pack and there's a little stream running down the trail and little stream running down the trail and little stream running down the trail and I had my damp sleeping bag wrapped I had my damp sleeping bag wrapped I had my damp sleeping bag wrapped around my shoulders and the wind was around my shoulders and the wind was around my shoulders and the wind was howling and the tarp was flapping and my howling and the tarp was flapping and my howling and the tarp was flapping and my teeth were chattering teeth were chattering teeth were chattering that was a long long night and when the that was a long long night and when the that was a long long night and when the Sun finally Rose in the morning you know Sun finally Rose in the morning you know Sun finally Rose in the morning you know this pale light kind of this pale light kind of this pale light kind of comes into the comes into the comes into the the forest and this is a stunningly the forest and this is a stunningly the forest and this is a stunningly beautiful area and the Mist is kind of beautiful area and the Mist is kind of beautiful area and the Mist is kind of rolling through rolling through rolling through and and and I packed up my stuff and I put my tail I packed up my stuff and I put my tail I packed up my stuff and I put my tail firmly between my legs and I hauled ass firmly between my legs and I hauled ass firmly between my legs and I hauled ass down off that mountain as fast as I
05:00down off that mountain as fast as I down off that mountain as fast as I could and that was my first trip and could and that was my first trip and could and that was my first trip and a little bit later I ran into a book by a little bit later I ran into a book by a little bit later I ran into a book by a fellow a fellow a fellow who was uh a physician who was uh a physician who was uh a physician Ted Lathrop and he was with this Ted Lathrop and he was with this Ted Lathrop and he was with this organization called the mazamas which is organization called the mazamas which is organization called the mazamas which is kind of the counterpart of the kind of the counterpart of the kind of the counterpart of the Mountaineers in the in Washington state Mountaineers in the in Washington state Mountaineers in the in Washington state well mazamas are in Oregon and he'd well mazamas are in Oregon and he'd well mazamas are in Oregon and he'd written this little booklet written this little booklet written this little booklet hypothermia killer of the unprepared hypothermia killer of the unprepared hypothermia killer of the unprepared and of course with this and of course with this and of course with this teeth chattering episode fresh in my in teeth chattering episode fresh in my in teeth chattering episode fresh in my in my memory you know there was his book my memory you know there was his book my memory you know there was his book and every other page of it was a horror and every other page of it was a horror and every other page of it was a horror story story story I mean there was the you know physiology I mean there was the you know physiology I mean there was the you know physiology of hypothermia and heat production heat of hypothermia and heat production heat of hypothermia and heat production heat loss and heat conservation all that but loss and heat conservation all that but loss and heat conservation all that but then boom here was one case and and a then boom here was one case and and a then boom here was one case and and a little more information boom here was little more information boom here was little more information boom here was another case and it made this tremendous another case and it made this tremendous another case and it made this tremendous impression on me and I thought impression on me and I thought impression on me and I thought hypothermia because I'd never heard of hypothermia because I'd never heard of hypothermia because I'd never heard of it there was nothing about it in
06:00it there was nothing about it in it there was nothing about it in Fletcher's book Fletcher's book Fletcher's book and so I kind of got on a little bit of and so I kind of got on a little bit of and so I kind of got on a little bit of a mission to spread the word a mission to spread the word a mission to spread the word you know you picture me wrapping myself you know you picture me wrapping myself you know you picture me wrapping myself in lathrop's book and I was going to go in lathrop's book and I was going to go in lathrop's book and I was going to go out and I became a hypothermia prophet and so that was the beginning and and and so that was the beginning and and it's it's one thing I think to read a it's it's one thing I think to read a it's it's one thing I think to read a book like that and then try to spread book like that and then try to spread book like that and then try to spread the word there but I was very curious the word there but I was very curious the word there but I was very curious about the whole subject and so I uh about the whole subject and so I uh about the whole subject and so I uh started I guess in college one of the started I guess in college one of the started I guess in college one of the things I learned is you better do your things I learned is you better do your things I learned is you better do your homework homework homework if you're going to write a paper you if you're going to write a paper you if you're going to write a paper you know it better be well researched and know it better be well researched and know it better be well researched and there's a superficial level of there's a superficial level of there's a superficial level of understanding and then there's a deeper understanding and then there's a deeper understanding and then there's a deeper level of understanding and so I read level of understanding and so I read level of understanding and so I read every single article that I could get my every single article that I could get my every single article that I could get my hands on from scientific and medical hands on from scientific and medical hands on from scientific and medical literature so literature so literature so that continued while I was in college I that continued while I was in college I that continued while I was in college I did a lot more backpacking and I got out
07:00did a lot more backpacking and I got out did a lot more backpacking and I got out of college I was I was actually had of college I was I was actually had of college I was I was actually had become fairly skilled at it and become fairly skilled at it and become fairly skilled at it and certainly had a very deep understanding certainly had a very deep understanding certainly had a very deep understanding of hypothermia and I felt like of hypothermia and I felt like of hypothermia and I felt like I was prepared to to share that I was prepared to to share that I was prepared to to share that knowledge on on a larger basis I had a knowledge on on a larger basis I had a knowledge on on a larger basis I had a mentor a Woman by the name of Louise mentor a Woman by the name of Louise mentor a Woman by the name of Louise Chatfield who was a conservationist she Chatfield who was a conservationist she Chatfield who was a conservationist she introduced me to conservation introduced me to conservation introduced me to conservation and she also said why don't you start a and she also said why don't you start a and she also said why don't you start a school where you can teach people how to school where you can teach people how to school where you can teach people how to travel in the wilderness there were two travel in the wilderness there were two travel in the wilderness there were two gifts she gave me one of them was it she gifts she gave me one of them was it she gifts she gave me one of them was it she called education the gift of knowledge called education the gift of knowledge called education the gift of knowledge and that really resonated me and the and that really resonated me and the and that really resonated me and the other one was her firm belief that other one was her firm belief that other one was her firm belief that unless we could get more people unless we could get more people unless we could get more people traveling through the Wilderness and traveling through the Wilderness and traveling through the Wilderness and experiencing the Wilderness we couldn't experiencing the Wilderness we couldn't experiencing the Wilderness we couldn't expect them to expect them to expect them to strongly support conservation strongly support conservation strongly support conservation because they wouldn't have because they wouldn't have because they wouldn't have you know they wouldn't have a stake in
08:00you know they wouldn't have a stake in you know they wouldn't have a stake in the game not not an emotional stake the the game not not an emotional stake the the game not not an emotional stake the way they would if they'd gone out and way they would if they'd gone out and way they would if they'd gone out and had these Wilderness experiences and I had these Wilderness experiences and I had these Wilderness experiences and I thought well based on my first thought well based on my first thought well based on my first experience experience experience there were a couple of things I wanted there were a couple of things I wanted there were a couple of things I wanted to bring to the game and and the gift of to bring to the game and and the gift of to bring to the game and and the gift of knowledge thinking about that I thought knowledge thinking about that I thought knowledge thinking about that I thought what are the two things that I really what are the two things that I really what are the two things that I really want my students to be able to do and it want my students to be able to do and it want my students to be able to do and it was no matter what the terrain no matter was no matter what the terrain no matter was no matter what the terrain no matter what Mother Nature throughout them I what Mother Nature throughout them I what Mother Nature throughout them I wanted them to be able to travel through wanted them to be able to travel through wanted them to be able to travel through the Wilderness safely and comfortably the Wilderness safely and comfortably the Wilderness safely and comfortably and those two things and those two things and those two things um um um you know by their very nature involve you know by their very nature involve you know by their very nature involve understanding things like hypothermia understanding things like hypothermia understanding things like hypothermia and how to keep warm and freezing and how to keep warm and freezing and how to keep warm and freezing weather and so forth so that was kind of weather and so forth so that was kind of weather and so forth so that was kind of the Genesis of it so I ran the the Genesis of it so I ran the the Genesis of it so I ran the Wilderness school for six years and uh Wilderness school for six years and uh Wilderness school for six years and uh and it was a wonderful and it was a wonderful and it was a wonderful experience we had a great group of experience we had a great group of experience we had a great group of people it was a non-profit everybody was
09:00people it was a non-profit everybody was people it was a non-profit everybody was a volunteer this was right out of a volunteer this was right out of a volunteer this was right out of college or what did you yeah what did college or what did you yeah what did college or what did you yeah what did you study in college well you know it was the uh it was the well you know it was the uh it was the late 60s early 70s and yeah the Vietnam late 60s early 70s and yeah the Vietnam late 60s early 70s and yeah the Vietnam War was going long and you know there War was going long and you know there War was going long and you know there were a lot of uh were a lot of uh were a lot of uh a lot of issues with society that I a lot of issues with society that I a lot of issues with society that I thought needed to be addressed so I thought needed to be addressed so I thought needed to be addressed so I majored in political science okay A majored in political science okay A majored in political science okay A friend of mine friend of mine friend of mine says that you know that's says that you know that's says that you know that's that is not exactly the most lucrative that is not exactly the most lucrative that is not exactly the most lucrative degree that one could obtain and so we refer to that one could obtain and so we refer to ourselves as political scientists we put ourselves as political scientists we put ourselves as political scientists we put a p in front of the science of an a p in front of the science of an a p in front of the science of an audible P scientists we're scientists to audible P scientists we're scientists to audible P scientists we're scientists to distinguish you know ourselves really distinguish you know ourselves really distinguish you know ourselves really from a deep respect that we have for for from a deep respect that we have for for from a deep respect that we have for for actual circuits but the political actual circuits but the political actual circuits but the political science actually uh you know it did come
10:00science actually uh you know it did come science actually uh you know it did come in handy in terms of conservation I have in handy in terms of conservation I have in handy in terms of conservation I have came in handy in terms of pushing for came in handy in terms of pushing for came in handy in terms of pushing for environmentally uh environmentally uh environmentally uh good legislation and it was somewhat good legislation and it was somewhat good legislation and it was somewhat helpful after the Wilderness school when helpful after the Wilderness school when helpful after the Wilderness school when I went to Washington DC and started this I went to Washington DC and started this I went to Washington DC and started this other non-profit devoted to other non-profit devoted to other non-profit devoted to addressing Heat Wave mortality in the addressing Heat Wave mortality in the addressing Heat Wave mortality in the United States so I guess the lesson United States so I guess the lesson United States so I guess the lesson there is that you know you're going to there is that you know you're going to there is that you know you're going to make of it what you what you will and make of it what you what you will and make of it what you what you will and even though we joke about it it did come even though we joke about it it did come even though we joke about it it did come in pretty handy from time to time in pretty handy from time to time in pretty handy from time to time so what was the Wilderness school like so what was the Wilderness school like so what was the Wilderness school like well it was it turns out there are well it was it turns out there are well it was it turns out there are philosophies two philosophies that philosophies two philosophies that philosophies two philosophies that govern govern govern Wilderness education and one of them is Wilderness education and one of them is Wilderness education and one of them is exemplified by Outward Bound exemplified by Outward Bound exemplified by Outward Bound and that is a philosophy it's called and that is a philosophy it's called and that is a philosophy it's called experiential stress challenge experiential stress challenge experiential stress challenge so the idea is you might not know all
11:00so the idea is you might not know all so the idea is you might not know all that much about it we're going to take that much about it we're going to take that much about it we're going to take you out into the Wilderness and the you out into the Wilderness and the you out into the Wilderness and the Wilderness is going to serve as a Wilderness is going to serve as a Wilderness is going to serve as a crucible where you're going to learn crucible where you're going to learn crucible where you're going to learn that you have uh that you have uh that you have uh oh let's say greater mental and physical oh let's say greater mental and physical oh let's say greater mental and physical resources than you thought possible and resources than you thought possible and resources than you thought possible and so part of that is a three-day solo so part of that is a three-day solo so part of that is a three-day solo experience experience and so forth so I don't I don't discount and so forth so I don't I don't discount and so forth so I don't I don't discount that as a that as a that as a as a way to as a way to as a way to affect change in an individual affect change in an individual affect change in an individual but I don't think that but I don't think that but I don't think that it gives you the foundation for it gives you the foundation for it gives you the foundation for a lifetime of going out into the a lifetime of going out into the a lifetime of going out into the Wilderness and appreciating the Wilderness and appreciating the Wilderness and appreciating the Wilderness for what it is Wilderness for what it is Wilderness for what it is it's not just a crucible where you're it's not just a crucible where you're it's not just a crucible where you're going to be tested it's a uh you know going to be tested it's a uh you know going to be tested it's a uh you know it's something far more deep far more it's something far more deep far more it's something far more deep far more Primal and I think it speaks to Primal and I think it speaks to Primal and I think it speaks to something very Primal in anyone who
12:00something very Primal in anyone who something very Primal in anyone who gives it a chance and that's because gives it a chance and that's because gives it a chance and that's because this Urban environment that we live in this Urban environment that we live in this Urban environment that we live in this civilization is a relative newcomer this civilization is a relative newcomer this civilization is a relative newcomer on the stage up until what maybe 15 000 on the stage up until what maybe 15 000 on the stage up until what maybe 15 000 years ago everybody was 100 gatherer years ago everybody was 100 gatherer years ago everybody was 100 gatherer uh and then all of a sudden Here Comes uh and then all of a sudden Here Comes uh and then all of a sudden Here Comes Agriculture and so forth and uh so I Agriculture and so forth and uh so I Agriculture and so forth and uh so I think the experiential stress challenge think the experiential stress challenge think the experiential stress challenge did not impress me it wasn't something I did not impress me it wasn't something I did not impress me it wasn't something I was interested in the other model I was interested in the other model I was interested in the other model I thought was the national outdoor thought was the national outdoor thought was the national outdoor Leadership School which had been started Leadership School which had been started Leadership School which had been started by Paul petzl and petzl was basically by Paul petzl and petzl was basically by Paul petzl and petzl was basically he was kind of a he was kind of a he was kind of a a crusty guy who really felt it you a crusty guy who really felt it you a crusty guy who really felt it you needed to learn some techniques in order needed to learn some techniques in order needed to learn some techniques in order to go out there and have this Wilderness to go out there and have this Wilderness to go out there and have this Wilderness experience and not get yourself killed experience and not get yourself killed experience and not get yourself killed and so you know given my first and so you know given my first and so you know given my first backpacking experience you know that backpacking experience you know that backpacking experience you know that kind of resonated deeply with me and so kind of resonated deeply with me and so kind of resonated deeply with me and so this was going to be a school where you this was going to be a school where you this was going to be a school where you would learn and not just to respect for
13:00would learn and not just to respect for would learn and not just to respect for the Wilderness but but also the the Wilderness but but also the the Wilderness but but also the techniques to travel again safely and techniques to travel again safely and techniques to travel again safely and comfortably through that environment so comfortably through that environment so comfortably through that environment so that was the model that I wanted and so that was the model that I wanted and so that was the model that I wanted and so all of the all of the all of the as it turns out most of these classes as it turns out most of these classes as it turns out most of these classes were taught through a local community were taught through a local community were taught through a local community college they were taught in our school college they were taught in our school college they were taught in our school with this handshake arrangement with the with this handshake arrangement with the with this handshake arrangement with the local Community College where they would local Community College where they would local Community College where they would help to fund them help to fund them help to fund them and we wound up oh gosh with maybe and we wound up oh gosh with maybe and we wound up oh gosh with maybe I don't know 15 or 20 different courses I don't know 15 or 20 different courses I don't know 15 or 20 different courses over time and so we'd have like over time and so we'd have like over time and so we'd have like Wilderness Travel techniques one two Wilderness Travel techniques one two Wilderness Travel techniques one two three three three in a winter Wilderness Travel Wilderness in a winter Wilderness Travel Wilderness in a winter Wilderness Travel Wilderness emergency classes it's kind of like a emergency classes it's kind of like a emergency classes it's kind of like a all-you-can-eat buffet except you you all-you-can-eat buffet except you you all-you-can-eat buffet except you you didn't have to have every every single didn't have to have every every single didn't have to have every every single piece if you wanted to take the piece if you wanted to take the piece if you wanted to take the Wilderness Travel techniques one that Wilderness Travel techniques one that Wilderness Travel techniques one that was enough where you find if you wanted was enough where you find if you wanted was enough where you find if you wanted to go deeper you could certainly do that to go deeper you could certainly do that to go deeper you could certainly do that and my instructors and my instructors and my instructors came from my students came from my students came from my students so so so that was kind of how we built you know
14:00that was kind of how we built you know that was kind of how we built you know built the house if you will built the house if you will built the house if you will you know they'd start out and they'd you know they'd start out and they'd you know they'd start out and they'd fall in love with it and they'd learn fall in love with it and they'd learn fall in love with it and they'd learn more and more more and more more and more eventually you know they'd want to share eventually you know they'd want to share eventually you know they'd want to share that knowledge too and so that's how we that knowledge too and so that's how we that knowledge too and so that's how we did it but it was uh did it but it was uh did it but it was uh it was it was a real exciting time I it was it was a real exciting time I it was it was a real exciting time I always think back on it fondly every always think back on it fondly every always think back on it fondly every once in a while I'll hear from a student once in a while I'll hear from a student once in a while I'll hear from a student who gets in touch with me just sort of who gets in touch with me just sort of who gets in touch with me just sort of out of the blue because they stumble out of the blue because they stumble out of the blue because they stumble across me on Facebook and they'll say across me on Facebook and they'll say across me on Facebook and they'll say you know something really sweet about you know something really sweet about you know something really sweet about how much how much how much the knowledge meant to them and you know the knowledge meant to them and you know the knowledge meant to them and you know how they went on to have these wonderful how they went on to have these wonderful how they went on to have these wonderful experiences in the outdoors and so forth experiences in the outdoors and so forth experiences in the outdoors and so forth and that makes me feel good because uh and that makes me feel good because uh and that makes me feel good because uh you know I feel like I'm carrying a you know I feel like I'm carrying a you know I feel like I'm carrying a torch Louise Chatfield passed to me and torch Louise Chatfield passed to me and torch Louise Chatfield passed to me and and that then you know in turn I'm and that then you know in turn I'm and that then you know in turn I'm teaching other people and they're teaching other people and they're teaching other people and they're passing that knowledge along and I feel passing that knowledge along and I feel passing that knowledge along and I feel the same way about the Cold Water Center the same way about the Cold Water Center the same way about the Cold Water Center you know I'm just one guy and you know
15:00you know I'm just one guy and you know you know I'm just one guy and you know there's a real limit to what any one there's a real limit to what any one there's a real limit to what any one person can accomplish by themselves and person can accomplish by themselves and person can accomplish by themselves and so we have people all over the country so we have people all over the country so we have people all over the country that are enthusiastically sharing that that are enthusiastically sharing that that are enthusiastically sharing that message message message so I feel like it has a a longevity and so I feel like it has a a longevity and so I feel like it has a a longevity and that that's the reason that we've had that that's the reason that we've had that that's the reason that we've had so much success in changing the paddling so much success in changing the paddling so much success in changing the paddling communities thinking over the years communities thinking over the years communities thinking over the years about the danger of cold water it's not about the danger of cold water it's not about the danger of cold water it's not just me you know I'm just one guy but just me you know I'm just one guy but just me you know I'm just one guy but it's all these other people who believe it's all these other people who believe it's all these other people who believe in it and who are sharing the gift of in it and who are sharing the gift of in it and who are sharing the gift of knowledge and so knowledge and so knowledge and so that's a good feeling I mean I feel you that's a good feeling I mean I feel you that's a good feeling I mean I feel you know that gives my life meaning and it's know that gives my life meaning and it's know that gives my life meaning and it's also a community of people and I think also a community of people and I think also a community of people and I think if you've got if you've got if you've got community and meaning in your life you community and meaning in your life you community and meaning in your life you could do a lot worse than that yeah well so how did you get involved in seek well so how did you get involved in seek hiking hiking hiking well you know I was a canoe guy okay and
16:00well you know I was a canoe guy okay and well you know I was a canoe guy okay and uh uh uh I'd uh been certified as a flat water I'd uh been certified as a flat water I'd uh been certified as a flat water canoe instructor and then a white water canoe instructor and then a white water canoe instructor and then a white water canoe instructor flat water through the canoe instructor flat water through the canoe instructor flat water through the American Red Cross because that's that's American Red Cross because that's that's American Red Cross because that's that's the outfit that was doing that back in the outfit that was doing that back in the outfit that was doing that back in the day and but white water was the the day and but white water was the the day and but white water was the American canoe Association and I got my American canoe Association and I got my American canoe Association and I got my white water certification at the Navajo white water certification at the Navajo white water certification at the Navajo Outdoor Center and right in the Smoky Outdoor Center and right in the Smoky Outdoor Center and right in the Smoky Mountains of North Carolina actually in Mountains of North Carolina actually in Mountains of North Carolina actually in that Halo mountains but they're right that Halo mountains but they're right that Halo mountains but they're right next door so I you know I've been next door so I you know I've been next door so I you know I've been teaching canoeing and really loved teaching canoeing and really loved teaching canoeing and really loved canoes and canoes and canoes and I got up to Washington DC in 1984 Rolls I got up to Washington DC in 1984 Rolls I got up to Washington DC in 1984 Rolls around and I see a picture of a valley around and I see a picture of a valley around and I see a picture of a valley Nord cap see kayak and these were the Nord cap see kayak and these were the Nord cap see kayak and these were the Expedition boats yeah back in the day Expedition boats yeah back in the day Expedition boats yeah back in the day and they were extraordinary boats they and they were extraordinary boats they and they were extraordinary boats they had so many Innovations and you know it had so many Innovations and you know it had so many Innovations and you know it was not uncommon to see a picture of a was not uncommon to see a picture of a was not uncommon to see a picture of a couple of them on a beach you know some couple of them on a beach you know some couple of them on a beach you know some cup guys you know taking this Expedition cup guys you know taking this Expedition cup guys you know taking this Expedition so the first ones I saw I thought oh my
17:00so the first ones I saw I thought oh my so the first ones I saw I thought oh my God what a beautiful absolutely stunning God what a beautiful absolutely stunning God what a beautiful absolutely stunning looking kayak looking kayak looking kayak there was one guy Ken Fink who was there was one guy Ken Fink who was there was one guy Ken Fink who was importing him he lived up in Maine importing him he lived up in Maine importing him he lived up in Maine oceanographer so on one of my trips oceanographer so on one of my trips oceanographer so on one of my trips around the country I flew into uh see around the country I flew into uh see around the country I flew into uh see him spent the night of his house tried him spent the night of his house tried him spent the night of his house tried out the boats and ordered one and I out the boats and ordered one and I out the boats and ordered one and I don't know if this is true now but in don't know if this is true now but in don't know if this is true now but in those days you could if you custom those days you could if you custom those days you could if you custom ordered the boat they would fit the ordered the boat they would fit the ordered the boat they would fit the forward bulkhead to your leg length oh forward bulkhead to your leg length oh forward bulkhead to your leg length oh wow wow wow so that was nice so that was the start so that was nice so that was the start so that was nice so that was the start that was 1984 and that was 1984 and that was 1984 and Ken had sold another Nord cap Ken had sold another Nord cap Ken had sold another Nord cap to a fellow who lived in the Washington to a fellow who lived in the Washington to a fellow who lived in the Washington DC area and he gave me the guy's name DC area and he gave me the guy's name DC area and he gave me the guy's name and so we we hooked up and that was and so we we hooked up and that was and so we we hooked up and that was Brian price and we became kayak partners Brian price and we became kayak partners Brian price and we became kayak partners and so that was pretty much how I got and so that was pretty much how I got and so that was pretty much how I got started in Sea kayaking one of the started in Sea kayaking one of the started in Sea kayaking one of the interesting things is that back in the interesting things is that back in the interesting things is that back in the day day day we were introduced to the green Landing
18:00we were introduced to the green Landing we were introduced to the green Landing tradition by John Heath okay with that tradition by John Heath okay with that tradition by John Heath okay with that time was running around he had a little time was running around he had a little time was running around he had a little dog and pony show that was fascinating dog and pony show that was fascinating dog and pony show that was fascinating and he was like the Johnny Appleseed and he was like the Johnny Appleseed and he was like the Johnny Appleseed Greenland typing and he'd just make the Greenland typing and he'd just make the Greenland typing and he'd just make the rounds and you know we caught one of his rounds and you know we caught one of his rounds and you know we caught one of his lectures and it's like oh my God I had lectures and it's like oh my God I had lectures and it's like oh my God I had no idea huh this was over the ACA no idea huh this was over the ACA no idea huh this was over the ACA no not at all ACA is completely no not at all ACA is completely no not at all ACA is completely oblivious oh to Green kayaking it's not oblivious oh to Green kayaking it's not oblivious oh to Green kayaking it's not I didn't know anything about it no this I didn't know anything about it no this I didn't know anything about it no this was just happened to be you know the was just happened to be you know the was just happened to be you know the paddling Community somebody said hey paddling Community somebody said hey paddling Community somebody said hey this guy's going to give a talk this guy's going to give a talk this guy's going to give a talk so Brian and I said oh wow yeah let's go so Brian and I said oh wow yeah let's go so Brian and I said oh wow yeah let's go check it out and he just blew the socks check it out and he just blew the socks check it out and he just blew the socks right off our feet right off our feet right off our feet it was absolutely you know just to it it it was absolutely you know just to it it it was absolutely you know just to it it informed our feeling about Kayaking it informed our feeling about Kayaking it informed our feeling about Kayaking it cave it placed these kayaks in this cave it placed these kayaks in this cave it placed these kayaks in this historical context and
19:00historical context and historical context and you know if you were even paying a you know if you were even paying a you know if you were even paying a little bit of attention you couldn't little bit of attention you couldn't little bit of attention you couldn't help but feel a gratitude help but feel a gratitude help but feel a gratitude a gratitude towards an admiration for a gratitude towards an admiration for a gratitude towards an admiration for the Inuit who had designed these kayaks the Inuit who had designed these kayaks the Inuit who had designed these kayaks and and you know the Nord cap is not exactly you know the Nord cap is not exactly you know the Nord cap is not exactly what you'd call a Greenland boat it what you'd call a Greenland boat it what you'd call a Greenland boat it approximates to a certain degree you approximates to a certain degree you approximates to a certain degree you know know know it kind of channels the love but uh so we became very very interested but uh so we became very very interested in this whole green Landing thing in this whole green Landing thing in this whole green Landing thing Meanwhile we're paddling with 90 degree Meanwhile we're paddling with 90 degree Meanwhile we're paddling with 90 degree feather Euro blades yeah feather Euro blades yeah feather Euro blades yeah but we learned low angle green Landing but we learned low angle green Landing but we learned low angle green Landing stroke from people like John Heath and stroke from people like John Heath and stroke from people like John Heath and others you know so it was funny I others you know so it was funny I others you know so it was funny I developed this this lovely low angle developed this this lovely low angle developed this this lovely low angle green Landing stroke uh with a 90 degree green Landing stroke uh with a 90 degree green Landing stroke uh with a 90 degree feather Euro which maybe we'll get back feather Euro which maybe we'll get back feather Euro which maybe we'll get back to later but we were so impressed with
20:00to later but we were so impressed with to later but we were so impressed with this that we we were members of this uh this that we we were members of this uh this that we we were members of this uh club called the Washington Canoe Club in club called the Washington Canoe Club in club called the Washington Canoe Club in DC and that's where we we kept our DC and that's where we we kept our DC and that's where we we kept our Kayaks at their Boathouse and Kayaks at their Boathouse and Kayaks at their Boathouse and when we heard it that there was a club when we heard it that there was a club when we heard it that there was a club in Greenland and you know all this stuff in Greenland and you know all this stuff in Greenland and you know all this stuff was going on in Greenland we thought was going on in Greenland we thought was going on in Greenland we thought well what could we do well what could we do well what could we do to show our respect for that you know to show our respect for that you know to show our respect for that you know how could we kind of maybe reach out a how could we kind of maybe reach out a how could we kind of maybe reach out a hand of friendship to the the hand of friendship to the the hand of friendship to the the greenlandic paddlers greenlandic paddlers greenlandic paddlers in Greenland and so we enlisted John in Greenland and so we enlisted John in Greenland and so we enlisted John he's help with that and we contacted the he's help with that and we contacted the he's help with that and we contacted the Danish Embassy because you know it's Danish Embassy because you know it's Danish Embassy because you know it's like that was Greenland you couldn't like that was Greenland you couldn't like that was Greenland you couldn't pick up the phone and call I mean who pick up the phone and call I mean who pick up the phone and call I mean who the hell knew anything about it but John the hell knew anything about it but John the hell knew anything about it but John did and so we sent a letter off to the did and so we sent a letter off to the did and so we sent a letter off to the club in Greenland and we proposed that club in Greenland and we proposed that club in Greenland and we proposed that we would have uh assisted we would be a we would have uh assisted we would be a we would have uh assisted we would be a sister Club oh okay that never went
21:00sister Club oh okay that never went sister Club oh okay that never went anywhere formally but what did happen it anywhere formally but what did happen it anywhere formally but what did happen it was kind of interesting was they needed was kind of interesting was they needed was kind of interesting was they needed some money to send a couple of people some money to send a couple of people some money to send a couple of people from Greenland to Alaska where there was from Greenland to Alaska where there was from Greenland to Alaska where there was some kind of a some kind of a some kind of a you know there was a conference that was you know there was a conference that was you know there was a conference that was going on on going on on going on on boats or something I don't remember boats or something I don't remember boats or something I don't remember exactly but we were able to raise money exactly but we were able to raise money exactly but we were able to raise money to help send to help send to help send to of their folks to Alaska to of their folks to Alaska to of their folks to Alaska and you know that was uh kind of about and you know that was uh kind of about and you know that was uh kind of about as far as it went I mean we were kind of as far as it went I mean we were kind of as far as it went I mean we were kind of I was going through some changes in my I was going through some changes in my I was going through some changes in my life life life I was married my first daughter was born I was married my first daughter was born I was married my first daughter was born and and Brian moved to Colorado and so Brian moved to Colorado and so Brian moved to Colorado and so I was powering back a little bit on the I was powering back a little bit on the I was powering back a little bit on the kayaking kayaking there was this sense you know of there was this sense you know of there was this sense you know of excitement excitement excitement in in that period because sea Coggin was in in that period because sea Coggin was in in that period because sea Coggin was a relatively new sport in the states a relatively new sport in the states a relatively new sport in the states then here was John Heath and and I have
22:00then here was John Heath and and I have then here was John Heath and and I have to say that my knowledge of the Inuit to say that my knowledge of the Inuit to say that my knowledge of the Inuit I think about I think about I think about it makes me happy it makes me happy it makes me happy it makes me happy to have met people it makes me happy to have met people it makes me happy to have met people like John Peterson at Delmarva like John Peterson at Delmarva like John Peterson at Delmarva because it because it because it it gives it gives it gives every stroke I take a richer meaning every stroke I take a richer meaning every stroke I take a richer meaning because I'm so I'm mindful of that because I'm so I'm mindful of that because I'm so I'm mindful of that tradition and I think we owe the Inuit a tradition and I think we owe the Inuit a tradition and I think we owe the Inuit a tremendous uh sense of gratitude now when you when you met uh John Heath now when you when you met uh John Heath was he touring with malagiac was he touring with malagiac was he touring with malagiac no I I didn't I I didn't meet maligyak no I I didn't I I didn't meet maligyak no I I didn't I I didn't meet maligyak until until until much later okay much later okay much later okay I met maligniak for the first time at I met maligniak for the first time at I met maligniak for the first time at the um Chesapeake paddlers Association the um Chesapeake paddlers Association the um Chesapeake paddlers Association uh there's a gathering they have there uh there's a gathering they have there uh there's a gathering they have there called sea kayak 102 and Dub Side was called sea kayak 102 and Dub Side was called sea kayak 102 and Dub Side was the Dub Side frequency and he and
23:00the Dub Side frequency and he and the Dub Side frequency and he and malignant were there and that was the malignant were there and that was the malignant were there and that was the first time in my recollection that I met first time in my recollection that I met first time in my recollection that I met upside ornamiak upside ornamiak upside ornamiak and boy and boy and boy synchronized rolling by those two wow so you know I had this love of Greenland you know I had this love of Greenland you know I had this love of Greenland Heritage but Heritage but Heritage but it was quite a while before I was able it was quite a while before I was able it was quite a while before I was able to divest myself of the 90 degree to divest myself of the 90 degree to divest myself of the 90 degree feather Euro feather Euro feather Euro one of the Spurs there was I'd started one of the Spurs there was I'd started one of the Spurs there was I'd started going back to Delmarva I was at the going back to Delmarva I was at the going back to Delmarva I was at the first first first three Delmarva things and then I kind of three Delmarva things and then I kind of three Delmarva things and then I kind of didn't go for a long time didn't go for a long time didn't go for a long time raising a family and so forth and so raising a family and so forth and so raising a family and so forth and so when I went back there I was with my old when I went back there I was with my old when I went back there I was with my old Nord cap and you know I knew some of the Nord cap and you know I knew some of the Nord cap and you know I knew some of the old hands uh they were very very old hands uh they were very very old hands uh they were very very gracious and welcoming but there I was gracious and welcoming but there I was gracious and welcoming but there I was with a 90 degree feather Euro and I felt with a 90 degree feather Euro and I felt with a 90 degree feather Euro and I felt in retrospect you know that was a little in retrospect you know that was a little in retrospect you know that was a little cheeky of me and it's very nice that
24:00cheeky of me and it's very nice that cheeky of me and it's very nice that they were so gracious they were so gracious they were so gracious about it and so then I I on this paddle about it and so then I I on this paddle about it and so then I I on this paddle and I developed this tendonitis like and I developed this tendonitis like and I developed this tendonitis like after about three hours in my left hand after about three hours in my left hand after about three hours in my left hand I had to stop oh wow I had to stop oh wow I had to stop oh wow and you know there's just a little voice and you know there's just a little voice and you know there's just a little voice thing you should be using a different thing you should be using a different thing you should be using a different panel did anybody come up to you and panel did anybody come up to you and panel did anybody come up to you and offer you a Greenland paddle oh yes oh offer you a Greenland paddle oh yes oh offer you a Greenland paddle oh yes oh yeah especially in the race okay yeah yeah especially in the race okay yeah yeah especially in the race okay yeah they have the race you know with the you they have the race you know with the you they have the race you know with the you got to go around this thing and it's got to go around this thing and it's got to go around this thing and it's followed by the you know followed by the you know followed by the you know person on the back of the kayak you know person on the back of the kayak you know person on the back of the kayak you know I think that's the third stage this is a I think that's the third stage this is a I think that's the third stage this is a second stage so oh yeah they were so second stage so oh yeah they were so second stage so oh yeah they were so gracious now here's I'm like no way in gracious now here's I'm like no way in gracious now here's I'm like no way in hell I don't know how to use that thing hell I don't know how to use that thing hell I don't know how to use that thing this is a race are you kidding me this is a race are you kidding me this is a race are you kidding me I think we're so sweet about it really I think we're so sweet about it really I think we're so sweet about it really really sweet about it really sweet about it really sweet about it but yes many people offered and many but yes many people offered and many but yes many people offered and many people uh you know suggested that
25:00people uh you know suggested that people uh you know suggested that perhaps I'd like to try a Greenland perhaps I'd like to try a Greenland perhaps I'd like to try a Greenland paddle and So within a year uh I'd paddle and So within a year uh I'd paddle and So within a year uh I'd attended a workshop and I'm not very attended a workshop and I'm not very attended a workshop and I'm not very good with visualizing good with visualizing good with visualizing geometric stuff and making the paddle geometric stuff and making the paddle geometric stuff and making the paddle appear out of a piece of wood I mean appear out of a piece of wood I mean appear out of a piece of wood I mean that's sculpture my mind doesn't work that's sculpture my mind doesn't work that's sculpture my mind doesn't work very well like that but somebody was at very well like that but somebody was at very well like that but somebody was at my elbow and helped me carve my first my elbow and helped me carve my first my elbow and helped me carve my first Greenland paddle and I have never looked Greenland paddle and I have never looked Greenland paddle and I have never looked back back back you know I mean we affectionately call you know I mean we affectionately call you know I mean we affectionately call them sticks but this is them sticks but this is them sticks but this is if you want to get right down to it this if you want to get right down to it this if you want to get right down to it this is a hydrodynamically very sophisticated is a hydrodynamically very sophisticated is a hydrodynamically very sophisticated piece of equipment piece of equipment piece of equipment and it's beautiful and and it's beautiful and and it's beautiful and I think it's funny that when Western I think it's funny that when Western I think it's funny that when Western culture meets culture meets culture meets native technology they always think that native technology they always think that native technology they always think that they can improve on the game yeah they can improve on the game yeah they can improve on the game yeah somehow yeah somehow yeah somehow yeah oh no no we've got this better paddle oh no no we've got this better paddle oh no no we've got this better paddle and so forth and so on and so I I can and so forth and so on and so I I can and so forth and so on and so I I can give you a whole 20 minutes on why the
26:00give you a whole 20 minutes on why the give you a whole 20 minutes on why the 90 degree feather Euro was just 90 degree feather Euro was just 90 degree feather Euro was just something I would not recommend to any something I would not recommend to any something I would not recommend to any beginning paddler and yet the stick is beginning paddler and yet the stick is beginning paddler and yet the stick is uh the Greenland town is just it's a uh the Greenland town is just it's a uh the Greenland town is just it's a beautiful thing and a lot of people used beautiful thing and a lot of people used beautiful thing and a lot of people used to say oh well it's fine for touring but to say oh well it's fine for touring but to say oh well it's fine for touring but you know I wouldn't want to take it in you know I wouldn't want to take it in you know I wouldn't want to take it in you know yes or for whatever and then you know yes or for whatever and then you know yes or for whatever and then all of a sudden you know somebody comes all of a sudden you know somebody comes all of a sudden you know somebody comes out and they're just surfing with it out and they're just surfing with it out and they're just surfing with it like a champ and it's like well like a champ and it's like well like a champ and it's like well or it's good for Rolling but um oh yes or it's good for Rolling but um oh yes or it's good for Rolling but um oh yes give me those tricks yeah yeah but it's give me those tricks yeah yeah but it's give me those tricks yeah yeah but it's good for butt it's good for butt good for butt it's good for butt good for butt it's good for butt but you know I I don't fault anyone for but you know I I don't fault anyone for but you know I I don't fault anyone for for using a Euro or whatever but I do for using a Euro or whatever but I do for using a Euro or whatever but I do think that uh think that uh think that uh I'm 74 now and I've never had a single I'm 74 now and I've never had a single I'm 74 now and I've never had a single problem with my wrists or shoulders or problem with my wrists or shoulders or problem with my wrists or shoulders or anything else since I started using the anything else since I started using the anything else since I started using the uh the Greenland paddle and I think it uh the Greenland paddle and I think it uh the Greenland paddle and I think it is is is extraordinary for extended paddle extraordinary for extended paddle extraordinary for extended paddle techniques I mean so much techniques I mean so much techniques I mean so much so much better than the Euro for that
27:00so much better than the Euro for that so much better than the Euro for that kind of thing so what was your kind of thing so what was your kind of thing so what was your experience of learning to roll with it experience of learning to roll with it experience of learning to roll with it and um how good were you at rolling with and um how good were you at rolling with and um how good were you at rolling with a euroblade I was fine fine rolling with a euroblade I was fine fine rolling with a euroblade I was fine fine rolling with it the Euro blade uh though I think just it the Euro blade uh though I think just it the Euro blade uh though I think just my own personal opinion but I think it my own personal opinion but I think it my own personal opinion but I think it it allows you to be a little sloppier it allows you to be a little sloppier it allows you to be a little sloppier because it has that big spoon and and I because it has that big spoon and and I because it has that big spoon and and I you know I'm not not a good I'm not you know I'm not not a good I'm not you know I'm not not a good I'm not really a good roller I don't I teach a really a good roller I don't I teach a really a good roller I don't I teach a lot of stuff in kayaking rolling is not lot of stuff in kayaking rolling is not lot of stuff in kayaking rolling is not something that I teach and it's because something that I teach and it's because something that I teach and it's because I don't feel that I'm good enough or I don't feel that I'm good enough or I don't feel that I'm good enough or experienced enough experienced enough experienced enough a good rolling coach I mean they are a good rolling coach I mean they are a good rolling coach I mean they are they're marvelous they have so much they're marvelous they have so much they're marvelous they have so much experience and they can spot and they experience and they can spot and they experience and they can spot and they have so many different ways of of have so many different ways of of have so many different ways of of communicating the information to see communicating the information to see communicating the information to see what you know what's going to resonate what you know what's going to resonate what you know what's going to resonate with you and I don't have that it's not with you and I don't have that it's not with you and I don't have that it's not a skill set I have but I do love a skill set I have but I do love a skill set I have but I do love teachings going teachings going teachings going and I'm kind of along with Warren and I'm kind of along with Warren and I'm kind of along with Warren Williams and I think sculling is a
28:00Williams and I think sculling is a Williams and I think sculling is a marvelous absolutely marvelous skill marvelous absolutely marvelous skill marvelous absolutely marvelous skill and I think it is uh so much easier with and I think it is uh so much easier with and I think it is uh so much easier with the Greenland panel so the Greenland panel so the Greenland panel so my wife's role was actually prettier my wife's role was actually prettier my wife's role was actually prettier than mine because she learned how to than mine because she learned how to than mine because she learned how to write the first time so she has a write the first time so she has a write the first time so she has a beautiful way back home beautiful way back home beautiful way back home you must have learned rolling for a you must have learned rolling for a you must have learned rolling for a white water white water white water yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and bad habits and and bad habits and and bad habits and I think probably for with rolling you I think probably for with rolling you I think probably for with rolling you know it's uh know it's uh know it's uh if you don't come out of your boat if you don't come out of your boat if you don't come out of your boat that's that's that's the thing that's that's that's that's the thing that's that's that's that's the thing that's the good thing but you have to admire the good thing but you have to admire the good thing but you have to admire the grace the grace the grace that people like Dub's side or that people like Dub's side or that people like Dub's side or Helen Wilson or any of these other Helen Wilson or any of these other Helen Wilson or any of these other top-notch coaches bringing you know to top-notch coaches bringing you know to top-notch coaches bringing you know to and they do so many different roles and and they do so many different roles and and they do so many different roles and it's a beautiful thing to see it's a beautiful thing to see it's a beautiful thing to see I mean that's what really attracted me I mean that's what really attracted me I mean that's what really attracted me to Greenland style was the rolling demo to Greenland style was the rolling demo to Greenland style was the rolling demo Chris Cunningham's rolling demo at the Chris Cunningham's rolling demo at the Chris Cunningham's rolling demo at the West Coast Seacock symposium well I
29:00West Coast Seacock symposium well I West Coast Seacock symposium well I think it's a think it's a think it's a no matter what kind of of a role I think no matter what kind of of a role I think no matter what kind of of a role I think if you do a couple of them in succession if you do a couple of them in succession if you do a couple of them in succession people on Shore they feel the people on Shore they feel the people on Shore they feel the spontaneous need to break into Applause spontaneous need to break into Applause spontaneous need to break into Applause because it is it is the ultimate magic because it is it is the ultimate magic because it is it is the ultimate magic trick but sometimes but sometimes no they can't help themselves they're no they can't help themselves they're no they can't help themselves they're like oh my God oh my God like oh my God oh my God like oh my God oh my God you're back up and they're like oh my you're back up and they're like oh my you're back up and they're like oh my God oh my God God oh my God God oh my God so I just I think it's I think it's so I just I think it's I think it's so I just I think it's I think it's wonderful and you know I I there are wonderful and you know I I there are wonderful and you know I I there are people who will try to make Arguments people who will try to make Arguments people who will try to make Arguments for why the role isn't necessary for why the role isn't necessary for why the role isn't necessary [Music] [Music] oh yeah you run into that every every oh yeah you run into that every every oh yeah you run into that every every now and then there are always people who now and then there are always people who now and then there are always people who can't roll can't roll can't roll or they've had trouble with a role and or they've had trouble with a role and or they've had trouble with a role and you know a number of them are you know a number of them are you know a number of them are instructors when we started that ACA instructors when we started that ACA instructors when we started that ACA program there was one certification and
30:00program there was one certification and program there was one certification and I was sea kayaking instructor they're a I was sea kayaking instructor they're a I was sea kayaking instructor they're a whole bunch of them now all different whole bunch of them now all different whole bunch of them now all different levels and this that and the other so so levels and this that and the other so so levels and this that and the other so so damn complicated you can hardly figure damn complicated you can hardly figure damn complicated you can hardly figure it out it out it out but then there was one and if you but then there was one and if you but then there was one and if you couldn't roll couldn't roll couldn't roll you weren't going to get your ticket you weren't going to get your ticket you weren't going to get your ticket snapped snapped snapped period period period and it was our feeling that you're a guy and it was our feeling that you're a guy and it was our feeling that you're a guy hacker hacker hacker if you can't roll if you can't roll if you can't roll what kind of street cred are you gonna what kind of street cred are you gonna what kind of street cred are you gonna have with your students have with your students have with your students you know when we were when I started in you know when we were when I started in you know when we were when I started in 84 especially in the Nord cap because 84 especially in the Nord cap because 84 especially in the Nord cap because compared to a canoe that thing is pretty compared to a canoe that thing is pretty compared to a canoe that thing is pretty Twitchy compared to uh racing sit on top Twitchy compared to uh racing sit on top Twitchy compared to uh racing sit on top it's not Twitchy at all it's not Twitchy at all it's not Twitchy at all but uh it was Twitchy enough for me that but uh it was Twitchy enough for me that but uh it was Twitchy enough for me that I really was motivated to learn how to I really was motivated to learn how to I really was motivated to learn how to roll it was not easy in those days roll it was not easy in those days roll it was not easy in those days because you had to find somebody that because you had to find somebody that because you had to find somebody that would teach you and there were no formal would teach you and there were no formal would teach you and there were no formal instruction programs so everything was instruction programs so everything was instruction programs so everything was passed in a mentorship way or by passed in a mentorship way or by passed in a mentorship way or by doing it
31:00doing it doing it now it's it's real different but we were now it's it's real different but we were now it's it's real different but we were motivated to do it and I think motivated to do it and I think motivated to do it and I think anyone anyone anyone that doesn't see the what a marvelous that doesn't see the what a marvelous that doesn't see the what a marvelous thing it is if you can roll uh you have thing it is if you can roll uh you have thing it is if you can roll uh you have no reservation about practicing bracing no reservation about practicing bracing no reservation about practicing bracing for example for example for example none at all you know you you miss a none at all you know you you miss a none at all you know you you miss a stroke or catch a paddle or something stroke or catch a paddle or something stroke or catch a paddle or something over you go and then right back up you over you go and then right back up you over you go and then right back up you come and it's nothing it's no big deal come and it's nothing it's no big deal come and it's nothing it's no big deal it's not oh we got to do a rescue now yeah it opens up so much for you in yeah it opens up so much for you in terms of going on to more challenging terms of going on to more challenging terms of going on to more challenging conditions and currents and um tidal conditions and currents and um tidal conditions and currents and um tidal races and surf yeah races and surf yeah races and surf yeah so back in the 80s when you were working so back in the 80s when you were working so back in the 80s when you were working with the American canoe Association yeah with the American canoe Association yeah with the American canoe Association yeah what was known about how people died what was known about how people died what was known about how people died while sea kayaking and how did that while sea kayaking and how did that while sea kayaking and how did that thinking evolve over the years thinking evolve over the years thinking evolve over the years well the fatalities that we we usually
32:00well the fatalities that we we usually well the fatalities that we we usually ran into were associated with uh ran into were associated with uh ran into were associated with uh with cold water with cold water with cold water that had been true for quite some time that had been true for quite some time that had been true for quite some time but it wasn't you know the but it wasn't you know the but it wasn't you know the you didn't have the internet and you didn't have the internet and you didn't have the internet and you had like on the East Coast there was you had like on the East Coast there was you had like on the East Coast there was a newsletter called anorak which was the a newsletter called anorak which was the a newsletter called anorak which was the association of North Atlantic kayakers association of North Atlantic kayakers association of North Atlantic kayakers and that was pretty much it and that was pretty much it and that was pretty much it you know and then there was Hutchison you know and then there was Hutchison you know and then there was Hutchison had written a book and Dowd had written had written a book and Dowd had written had written a book and Dowd had written a book a book a book Dowd who was he he never was able to Dowd who was he he never was able to Dowd who was he he never was able to reconcile himself with the wisdom of reconcile himself with the wisdom of reconcile himself with the wisdom of wearing a wetsuit or dry suit just never wearing a wetsuit or dry suit just never wearing a wetsuit or dry suit just never could you know and and Hutchinson he could you know and and Hutchinson he could you know and and Hutchinson he didn't like them because they were you didn't like them because they were you didn't like them because they were you know they were cumbersome know they were cumbersome know they were cumbersome but Hutchison was a was a very but Hutchison was a was a very but Hutchison was a was a very accomplished paddler and he's going to accomplished paddler and he's going to accomplished paddler and he's going to roll up roll up roll up in John dowd's book see kayaking isn't in John dowd's book see kayaking isn't in John dowd's book see kayaking isn't he in a Clepper and um yeah he's in a he in a Clepper and um yeah he's in a he in a Clepper and um yeah he's in a Clapper he's uh he's sailing around the Clapper he's uh he's sailing around the Clapper he's uh he's sailing around the Caribbean he was also a resident of the
33:00Caribbean he was also a resident of the Caribbean he was also a resident of the Pacific Northwest oh okay and he knew Pacific Northwest oh okay and he knew Pacific Northwest oh okay and he knew damn well that the water was cold up damn well that the water was cold up damn well that the water was cold up there he advised sitting on your wetsuit there he advised sitting on your wetsuit there he advised sitting on your wetsuit and then if you capsized try to get into and then if you capsized try to get into and then if you capsized try to get into it and fire off your flare okay it and fire off your flare okay it and fire off your flare okay um you know which was really um you know which was really um you know which was really I wonder how hard that would be I wonder how hard that would be I wonder how hard that would be well it'd be damn hard very hard and the well it'd be damn hard very hard and the well it'd be damn hard very hard and the other part about it is you'd have to other part about it is you'd have to other part about it is you'd have to take your PFD off if you were wearing a take your PFD off if you were wearing a take your PFD off if you were wearing a PFT in order to put the wetsuit on PFT in order to put the wetsuit on PFT in order to put the wetsuit on and that that does not work out very and that that does not work out very and that that does not work out very well at all well at all well at all because then you got you try to struggle because then you got you try to struggle because then you got you try to struggle into this and get no flotation and at into this and get no flotation and at into this and get no flotation and at the same time you are completely the same time you are completely the same time you are completely incapacitated by cold incapacitated by cold incapacitated by cold and this was one thing I don't think and this was one thing I don't think and this was one thing I don't think Dowd appreciated I don't think Hutchison Dowd appreciated I don't think Hutchison Dowd appreciated I don't think Hutchison appreciated at the time appreciated at the time appreciated at the time I don't think they knew much about what I don't think they knew much about what I don't think they knew much about what happens to you when you fall in into happens to you when you fall in into happens to you when you fall in into cold water I think they they knew about cold water I think they they knew about cold water I think they they knew about hypothermia and passing hypothermia and passing
34:00hypothermia and passing and that's about it and that's about it and that's about it the thing that I thought people like the thing that I thought people like the thing that I thought people like Dowd for and in fact many of these guys Dowd for and in fact many of these guys Dowd for and in fact many of these guys on the west coast who were manufacturers on the west coast who were manufacturers on the west coast who were manufacturers of kayaks of kayaks of kayaks they didn't want to hear the cold water they didn't want to hear the cold water they didn't want to hear the cold water was dangerous they thought it was going was dangerous they thought it was going was dangerous they thought it was going to hurt business to hurt business to hurt business and they were pretty much impervious to and they were pretty much impervious to and they were pretty much impervious to reason so you could sit down there and reason so you could sit down there and reason so you could sit down there and you'd lay it all out in front of them you'd lay it all out in front of them you'd lay it all out in front of them and they just you know they just turn and they just you know they just turn and they just you know they just turn you off you off you off I've had many many conversations at I've had many many conversations at I've had many many conversations at symposia with with these guys symposia with with these guys symposia with with these guys all the big names all the big names all the big names manufacturers on the west coast and manufacturers on the west coast and manufacturers on the west coast and absolutely nothing they were never absolutely nothing they were never absolutely nothing they were never supportive of the supportive of the supportive of the the idea of educating people about cold the idea of educating people about cold the idea of educating people about cold water safety they diminished the danger water safety they diminished the danger water safety they diminished the danger and they came up with an alternative and they came up with an alternative and they came up with an alternative idea which was oh you know you don't idea which was oh you know you don't idea which was oh you know you don't need this need this need this unless perhaps you plan on encountering
35:00unless perhaps you plan on encountering unless perhaps you plan on encountering quote-unquote challenging conditions quote-unquote challenging conditions quote-unquote challenging conditions okay in in that case you know okay yeah okay in in that case you know okay yeah okay in in that case you know okay yeah you might want to consider a wetsuit the you might want to consider a wetsuit the you might want to consider a wetsuit the problem with that of course is that problem with that of course is that problem with that of course is that nobody plans on dying nobody plans on dying nobody plans on dying nobody plans on capsizing nobody plans nobody plans on capsizing nobody plans nobody plans on capsizing nobody plans on getting into trouble on getting into trouble on getting into trouble it's not easy to dismantle that argument it's not easy to dismantle that argument it's not easy to dismantle that argument as having no merit but as having no merit but as having no merit but that doesn't matter it's still around that doesn't matter it's still around that doesn't matter it's still around and it's still a thorn in my side trying and it's still a thorn in my side trying and it's still a thorn in my side trying to educate people to educate people to educate people I think really that uh I think really that uh I think really that uh starting in the 80s since I knew about starting in the 80s since I knew about starting in the 80s since I knew about hypothermia I also haven't done the hypothermia I also haven't done the hypothermia I also haven't done the research I was very familiar the British research I was very familiar the British research I was very familiar the British kind of pioneered this kind of pioneered this kind of pioneered this Research into cold water a lot of it and Research into cold water a lot of it and Research into cold water a lot of it and I was familiar with all of their I was familiar with all of their I was familiar with all of their research and research and research and it was Apparent at the time that cold it was Apparent at the time that cold it was Apparent at the time that cold shock was the significant shock was the significant shock was the significant danger and that hypothermia was actually danger and that hypothermia was actually danger and that hypothermia was actually sort of a tertiary issue you know it
36:00sort of a tertiary issue you know it sort of a tertiary issue you know it takes about 20 to 30 minutes takes about 20 to 30 minutes takes about 20 to 30 minutes for hypothermia to develop in an average for hypothermia to develop in an average for hypothermia to develop in an average person even in very cold water because person even in very cold water because person even in very cold water because your your body mounts a very vigorous your your body mounts a very vigorous your your body mounts a very vigorous defense against that heat loss and it defense against that heat loss and it defense against that heat loss and it can take even longer if you happen to be can take even longer if you happen to be can take even longer if you happen to be fat because fat is a marvelous insulator fat because fat is a marvelous insulator fat because fat is a marvelous insulator against cold water this is look at a against cold water this is look at a against cold water this is look at a walrus you know look at seals look at walrus you know look at seals look at walrus you know look at seals look at any of these aquatic mammals and what any of these aquatic mammals and what any of these aquatic mammals and what you see is a you see is a you see is a somebody with the same physiology that somebody with the same physiology that somebody with the same physiology that we have except they're surrounded we have except they're surrounded we have except they're surrounded by a layer of fat we call it blubber but by a layer of fat we call it blubber but by a layer of fat we call it blubber but it's fat it's fat it's fat when uh you would confront people like when uh you would confront people like when uh you would confront people like Dowd and Hutchinson about what the Dowd and Hutchinson about what the Dowd and Hutchinson about what the research showed what was the data that research showed what was the data that research showed what was the data that you would provide for them you would provide for them you would provide for them at that time there was uh quite a bit of at that time there was uh quite a bit of at that time there was uh quite a bit of of human subject research that had been of human subject research that had been of human subject research that had been done done done particularly in Great Britain particularly in Great Britain particularly in Great Britain it's the usual thing you know at
37:00it's the usual thing you know at it's the usual thing you know at universities they get a bunch of grad universities they get a bunch of grad universities they get a bunch of grad students students students that's their subjects from the that's their subjects from the that's their subjects from the physiology department and off they go physiology department and off they go physiology department and off they go and they've got pools cool to the proper and they've got pools cool to the proper and they've got pools cool to the proper temperature and they're measuring temperature and they're measuring temperature and they're measuring respiration in their measuring blood respiration in their measuring blood respiration in their measuring blood flow and they're doing all sorts of flow and they're doing all sorts of flow and they're doing all sorts of stuff but it was real Apparent at the stuff but it was real Apparent at the stuff but it was real Apparent at the time that this was dangerous that sudden time that this was dangerous that sudden time that this was dangerous that sudden a sudden unprotected immersion in cold a sudden unprotected immersion in cold a sudden unprotected immersion in cold water water water was a life-threatening event and was a life-threatening event and was a life-threatening event and that realization was growing that realization was growing that realization was growing and more and more people were looking and more and more people were looking and more and more people were looking into it more research was being done so into it more research was being done so into it more research was being done so that was more than enough out there at that was more than enough out there at that was more than enough out there at the time the time the time that anyone with an open mind could have that anyone with an open mind could have that anyone with an open mind could have looked at it and said well yeah this looked at it and said well yeah this looked at it and said well yeah this makes sense besides it's science makes sense besides it's science makes sense besides it's science it's not like I'm coming around and I'm it's not like I'm coming around and I'm it's not like I'm coming around and I'm going well this is my personal opinion going well this is my personal opinion going well this is my personal opinion my personal opinion was that you should my personal opinion was that you should my personal opinion was that you should wear thermal protection wear thermal protection wear thermal protection but cold shock was not my personal
38:00but cold shock was not my personal but cold shock was not my personal opinion that was settled science at the opinion that was settled science at the opinion that was settled science at the time okay time okay time okay I'm not as widely recognized for example I'm not as widely recognized for example I'm not as widely recognized for example the Coast Guard the Coast Guard the Coast Guard U.S Coast Guard recognized that there U.S Coast Guard recognized that there U.S Coast Guard recognized that there was something going on when people was something going on when people was something going on when people capsized let's say a canoe in cold water capsized let's say a canoe in cold water capsized let's say a canoe in cold water and they just never resurfaced and they just never resurfaced and they just never resurfaced hmm hmm hmm it happened often enough that they it happened often enough that they it happened often enough that they coined a special terms work which is coined a special terms work which is coined a special terms work which is sudden disappearance syndrome sudden disappearance syndrome sudden disappearance syndrome and I don't know if you you run into and I don't know if you you run into and I don't know if you you run into this a lot but in medicine this a lot but in medicine this a lot but in medicine now if you have a syndrome it means that now if you have a syndrome it means that now if you have a syndrome it means that there's something going on but you're there's something going on but you're there's something going on but you're not really exactly sure it was sudden disappearance syndrome it was sudden disappearance syndrome because suddenly they disappeared and because suddenly they disappeared and because suddenly they disappeared and you interview the people who were with you interview the people who were with you interview the people who were with them or people who saw it happen them or people who saw it happen them or people who saw it happen and they would go well I don't know and they would go well I don't know and they would go well I don't know they fell in they suddenly disappeared they fell in they suddenly disappeared they fell in they suddenly disappeared wow and it was not until later that they
39:00wow and it was not until later that they wow and it was not until later that they made this connection with the fact that made this connection with the fact that made this connection with the fact that if you capsize in cold water you have no if you capsize in cold water you have no if you capsize in cold water you have no protection you're not wearing a PFD and protection you're not wearing a PFD and protection you're not wearing a PFD and you gasp which you're very likely to do you gasp which you're very likely to do you gasp which you're very likely to do when your mouth is underwater when your mouth is underwater when your mouth is underwater that gasp is huge it's a if it's above that gasp is huge it's a if it's above that gasp is huge it's a if it's above the water level this is a full lung the water level this is a full lung the water level this is a full lung inflation it's like you've taken as much inflation it's like you've taken as much inflation it's like you've taken as much air as fast as you can air as fast as you can air as fast as you can full lung inflation and if your mouth is full lung inflation and if your mouth is full lung inflation and if your mouth is underwater when you do that you you underwater when you do that you you underwater when you do that you you drown it's not like you might drown drown it's not like you might drown drown it's not like you might drown maybe you can no you ground and you go maybe you can no you ground and you go maybe you can no you ground and you go straight to the bottom oh my God straight to the bottom oh my God straight to the bottom oh my God so so that's that's that's that's kind of the first that's kind of the first that's kind of the first the first thing that can happen to you the first thing that can happen to you the first thing that can happen to you let's say in a cold water immersion and let's say in a cold water immersion and let's say in a cold water immersion and if you contrast that with the 20 or 30 if you contrast that with the 20 or 30 if you contrast that with the 20 or 30 minutes that it takes to develop minutes that it takes to develop minutes that it takes to develop hypothermia then it becomes real hypothermia then it becomes real hypothermia then it becomes real apparent that you're dealing with apparent that you're dealing with apparent that you're dealing with something that is something that is something that is immediate immediate immediate you know the the danger doesn't get
40:00you know the the danger doesn't get you know the the danger doesn't get mitigated by the fact that you have mitigated by the fact that you have mitigated by the fact that you have practiced doing a rescue practiced doing a rescue practiced doing a rescue the hazard's still there and today let's the hazard's still there and today let's the hazard's still there and today let's if you switch it over to White Water if you switch it over to White Water if you switch it over to White Water there's a phenomenon White Water called there's a phenomenon White Water called there's a phenomenon White Water called flush drowning kind of square person's flush drowning kind of square person's flush drowning kind of square person's out of the boat they haven't rolled they out of the boat they haven't rolled they out of the boat they haven't rolled they bail out they're getting flushed down bail out they're getting flushed down bail out they're getting flushed down the river through Rapids and they're the river through Rapids and they're the river through Rapids and they're trying to swim trying to swim trying to swim and in that situation I think that cold and in that situation I think that cold and in that situation I think that cold shock is still in the Whitewater shock is still in the Whitewater shock is still in the Whitewater Community an underappreciated hazard Community an underappreciated hazard Community an underappreciated hazard which I'm doing my best to change I which I'm doing my best to change I which I'm doing my best to change I think in academic researchers who have think in academic researchers who have think in academic researchers who have looked at flush drownings I think looked at flush drownings I think looked at flush drownings I think there's an under under appreciation there's an under under appreciation there's an under under appreciation there as well although I do think that's there as well although I do think that's there as well although I do think that's going to change in the next maybe three going to change in the next maybe three going to change in the next maybe three or five years as they become more aware or five years as they become more aware or five years as they become more aware of that Culture Connection okay so you of that Culture Connection okay so you of that Culture Connection okay so you think that flush drowning is related to think that flush drowning is related to think that flush drowning is related to cold shock yes it is and the thing cold shock yes it is and the thing cold shock yes it is and the thing here's the thing to understand about
41:00here's the thing to understand about here's the thing to understand about cold shock okay cold shock okay cold shock okay if you had to characterize it just in if you had to characterize it just in if you had to characterize it just in one little short sentence it would be one little short sentence it would be one little short sentence it would be that that that cold shock results in a complete loss of cold shock results in a complete loss of cold shock results in a complete loss of breathing control breathing control breathing control so you completely lose control of your so you completely lose control of your so you completely lose control of your breathing you're gasping and these are breathing you're gasping and these are breathing you're gasping and these are huge gas there may be two or three of huge gas there may be two or three of huge gas there may be two or three of them in a row that's followed them in a row that's followed them in a row that's followed immediately by hyperventilation which is immediately by hyperventilation which is immediately by hyperventilation which is your breathing's out of control your your breathing's out of control your your breathing's out of control your breathing in and out as fast as you breathing in and out as fast as you breathing in and out as fast as you possibly can possibly can possibly can at the same time at the same time at the same time you have this feeling that you can't get you have this feeling that you can't get you have this feeling that you can't get enough air so that drives the enough air so that drives the enough air so that drives the hyperventilation hyperventilation hyperventilation on top of that your ability to hold your on top of that your ability to hold your on top of that your ability to hold your breath breath breath is dramatically reduced is dramatically reduced is dramatically reduced so you're being flushed down river so you're being flushed down river so you're being flushed down river you've got a PFD on you've got a PFD on you've got a PFD on you're going through Rapids and your you're going through Rapids and your you're going through Rapids and your head is being periodically submerged
42:00head is being periodically submerged head is being periodically submerged because they're Rapids because they're Rapids because they're Rapids that's a scenario in which you're very that's a scenario in which you're very that's a scenario in which you're very likely to drown mm-hmm if you don't have likely to drown mm-hmm if you don't have likely to drown mm-hmm if you don't have control of your breathing and you're in control of your breathing and you're in control of your breathing and you're in rough water the chance of water rough water the chance of water rough water the chance of water inhalation inhalation inhalation and drowning or near grounding is and drowning or near grounding is and drowning or near grounding is dramatically increased dramatically increased dramatically increased the other thing about it the other thing about it the other thing about it is that is that is that since you don't have control of your since you don't have control of your since you don't have control of your breathing breathing breathing swimming failure occurs swimming failure occurs swimming failure occurs because if you cannot coordinate if your because if you cannot coordinate if your because if you cannot coordinate if your breathing's out of control and you breathing's out of control and you breathing's out of control and you cannot coordinate the swim Strokes with cannot coordinate the swim Strokes with cannot coordinate the swim Strokes with your breathing your breathing your breathing it becomes very difficult to swim it becomes very difficult to swim it becomes very difficult to swim if you're not wearing a PFD the second if you're not wearing a PFD the second if you're not wearing a PFD the second you can't swim you're done there's you can't swim you're done there's you can't swim you're done there's something you know unless you find something you know unless you find something you know unless you find something to hold on to for flotation something to hold on to for flotation something to hold on to for flotation you are done you're gonna drown you are done you're gonna drown you are done you're gonna drown and you know we've got plenty of and you know we've got plenty of and you know we've got plenty of statistics on this that people who are
43:00statistics on this that people who are statistics on this that people who are considered to be good swimmers drown uh considered to be good swimmers drown uh considered to be good swimmers drown uh when they're within six to ten feet of when they're within six to ten feet of when they're within six to ten feet of safety safety safety because they cannot swim that distance because they cannot swim that distance because they cannot swim that distance without drowning in order to save their without drowning in order to save their without drowning in order to save their own lives own lives own lives people who are you know considered by people who are you know considered by people who are you know considered by their friends and families to be quote their friends and families to be quote their friends and families to be quote unquote good swimmers whatever that unquote good swimmers whatever that unquote good swimmers whatever that means but they can swim means but they can swim means but they can swim but not enough to overcome that and so but not enough to overcome that and so but not enough to overcome that and so when you look at the Gasping and the when you look at the Gasping and the when you look at the Gasping and the hyperventilation and the fact that you hyperventilation and the fact that you hyperventilation and the fact that you can't control your breathing and you can't control your breathing and you can't control your breathing and you can't hold your breath worth a damn and can't hold your breath worth a damn and can't hold your breath worth a damn and you're experiencing swimming failure and you're experiencing swimming failure and you're experiencing swimming failure and you know let's say at a water you know let's say at a water you know let's say at a water temperature below 45 temperature below 45 temperature below 45 the water is so cold that it feels like the water is so cold that it feels like the water is so cold that it feels like it's burning your skin it's burning your skin it's burning your skin so it's a terrifying absolutely so it's a terrifying absolutely so it's a terrifying absolutely terrifying experience terrifying experience terrifying experience and it will honestly it will rattle your and it will honestly it will rattle your and it will honestly it will rattle your cage like cage like cage like you know we're talking people
44:00you know we're talking people you know we're talking people can't look at their kayaks without can't look at their kayaks without can't look at their kayaks without experiencing anxiety sometimes for experiencing anxiety sometimes for experiencing anxiety sometimes for months after that occurs months after that occurs months after that occurs oh Craigslist kayak for sale happens oh Craigslist kayak for sale happens oh Craigslist kayak for sale happens plenty for the survivors plenty for the survivors plenty for the survivors it's uh it's not an inconsequential it's uh it's not an inconsequential it's uh it's not an inconsequential experience it is perhaps one of the most experience it is perhaps one of the most experience it is perhaps one of the most profound profound profound shocks physiological shocks that your shocks physiological shocks that your shocks physiological shocks that your body can experience and so that's body can experience and so that's body can experience and so that's that that I think the other part about it that I think the other part about it that I think the other part about it that Dowd and the rest of them didn't Dowd and the rest of them didn't Dowd and the rest of them didn't appreciate appreciate appreciate because they really didn't understand it because they really didn't understand it because they really didn't understand it maybe they didn't want to understand it maybe they didn't want to understand it maybe they didn't want to understand it was the fact that was the fact that was the fact that temperatures don't have to be what we temperatures don't have to be what we temperatures don't have to be what we would consider that low in order for would consider that low in order for would consider that low in order for cold shock to occur so for example the cold shock to occur so for example the cold shock to occur so for example the reason we say reason we say reason we say below 70 Fahrenheit water temperature below 70 Fahrenheit water temperature below 70 Fahrenheit water temperature you should be wearing you should be wearing you should be wearing a wetsuit or dry suit
45:00a wetsuit or dry suit a wetsuit or dry suit is because is because is because from Human subject research we know that from Human subject research we know that from Human subject research we know that most people most people most people if they're immersed in cold water below if they're immersed in cold water below if they're immersed in cold water below let's say between 50 and 60 degrees let's say between 50 and 60 degrees let's say between 50 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit which you know if you talk to Fahrenheit which you know if you talk to Fahrenheit which you know if you talk to somebody say 55 degrees they think about somebody say 55 degrees they think about somebody say 55 degrees they think about 55 degree air 55 degree air 55 degree air and so they don't think it's that cold and so they don't think it's that cold and so they don't think it's that cold it isn't air wise but in water it's it isn't air wise but in water it's it isn't air wise but in water it's brutally cold and so between 50 and 60 brutally cold and so between 50 and 60 brutally cold and so between 50 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit you're going to degrees Fahrenheit you're going to degrees Fahrenheit you're going to experience maximum intensity Cold Shot experience maximum intensity Cold Shot experience maximum intensity Cold Shot gasping hyperventilating as hard as fast gasping hyperventilating as hard as fast gasping hyperventilating as hard as fast as you can you cannot control it it as you can you cannot control it it as you can you cannot control it it reaches its maximum if you go lower it reaches its maximum if you go lower it reaches its maximum if you go lower it doesn't get any worse right that's doesn't get any worse right that's doesn't get any worse right that's exactly right it doesn't get any worse exactly right it doesn't get any worse exactly right it doesn't get any worse because it can't it's already at its because it can't it's already at its because it can't it's already at its maximum level of between 50 and 60 maximum level of between 50 and 60 maximum level of between 50 and 60 degrees what happens is the temperature degrees what happens is the temperature degrees what happens is the temperature gets lower is that the experience gets lower is that the experience gets lower is that the experience becomes more painful
46:00becomes more painful becomes more painful and then you also become incapacitated and then you also become incapacitated and then you also become incapacitated more quickly you can lose the use of more quickly you can lose the use of more quickly you can lose the use of your hands more quickly that kind of your hands more quickly that kind of your hands more quickly that kind of thing but the actual cold shock response thing but the actual cold shock response thing but the actual cold shock response itself isn't any more itself isn't any more itself isn't any more severe at 40 than it is let's say 53 or severe at 40 than it is let's say 53 or severe at 40 than it is let's say 53 or 55 or whatever does that require 55 or whatever does that require 55 or whatever does that require immersion of the face at all or no no no immersion of the face at all or no no no immersion of the face at all or no no no no no uh you know some people Splash no no uh you know some people Splash no no uh you know some people Splash cold water on their face you know when cold water on their face you know when cold water on their face you know when they're getting started kayaking and so they're getting started kayaking and so they're getting started kayaking and so forth there's not enough forth there's not enough forth there's not enough not enough research to indicate whether not enough research to indicate whether not enough research to indicate whether that's whether that's of any value cold that's whether that's of any value cold that's whether that's of any value cold shock is triggered when cold water shock is triggered when cold water shock is triggered when cold water contacts a large enough area of your contacts a large enough area of your contacts a large enough area of your skin surface so skin surface so skin surface so for example your chest for example your chest for example your chest you can't get it just by sticking your you can't get it just by sticking your you can't get it just by sticking your head in the water or sticking your hands head in the water or sticking your hands head in the water or sticking your hands in the water something like that it has in the water something like that it has in the water something like that it has to be a sufficient because it's it's a to be a sufficient because it's it's a to be a sufficient because it's it's a nerves responding to the cold send this
47:00nerves responding to the cold send this nerves responding to the cold send this light and bolt size signal to your brain light and bolt size signal to your brain light and bolt size signal to your brain which immediately initiates this which immediately initiates this which immediately initiates this response response response have you ever experienced it have you ever experienced it have you ever experienced it oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah deliberately deliberately deliberately yeah back in the back in the day you yeah back in the back in the day you yeah back in the back in the day you know when I was in my 20s 30s you know I know when I was in my 20s 30s you know I know when I was in my 20s 30s you know I would I would do that I'd I would never would I would do that I'd I would never would I would do that I'd I would never I would never do it now because it I would never do it now because it I would never do it now because it places a tremendous train on your heart places a tremendous train on your heart places a tremendous train on your heart and blood vessels and blood vessels and blood vessels so for somebody 74 years old I'm not so for somebody 74 years old I'm not so for somebody 74 years old I'm not looking to have a giant instantaneous looking to have a giant instantaneous looking to have a giant instantaneous spike in my blood pressure spike in my blood pressure spike in my blood pressure that I think is you know something that I think is you know something that I think is you know something that's avoided well isn't that practice that's avoided well isn't that practice that's avoided well isn't that practice of um going into sauna and oh sure exactly but there what you've oh sure exactly but there what you've got is you're warm
48:00got is you're warm got is you're warm and the skin is warm and the skin is warm and the skin is warm you don't see these people just you don't see these people just you don't see these people just frolicking around most of them are frolicking around most of them are frolicking around most of them are jumping in and getting back out pretty jumping in and getting back out pretty jumping in and getting back out pretty quickly quickly quickly but you have this kind of reservoir of but you have this kind of reservoir of but you have this kind of reservoir of heat if you will I think and and that heat if you will I think and and that heat if you will I think and and that that uh that uh that uh prevents that from happening but the prevents that from happening but the prevents that from happening but the other thing that sometimes can confuse other thing that sometimes can confuse other thing that sometimes can confuse the picture is that it's possible to the picture is that it's possible to the picture is that it's possible to adjust to the cold water so that cold adjust to the cold water so that cold adjust to the cold water so that cold shock is either grammatically reduced or shock is either grammatically reduced or shock is either grammatically reduced or eliminated eliminated eliminated and you can do this by several three to and you can do this by several three to and you can do this by several three to five minute immersions and cold water five minute immersions and cold water five minute immersions and cold water over the course of a couple of weeks and over the course of a couple of weeks and over the course of a couple of weeks and oh okay so you can train yourself too oh okay so you can train yourself too oh okay so you can train yourself too yes you absolutely you absolutely can to yes you absolutely you absolutely can to yes you absolutely you absolutely can to reduce or eliminate cold shock but most reduce or eliminate cold shock but most reduce or eliminate cold shock but most it's a very unpleasant it's a very unpleasant it's a very unpleasant sensation sensation sensation and certainly if you're going to do that and certainly if you're going to do that and certainly if you're going to do that then the advice is you know wade into then the advice is you know wade into then the advice is you know wade into cold water very slowly okay and
49:00cold water very slowly okay and cold water very slowly okay and gradually and then you know kind of gradually and then you know kind of gradually and then you know kind of squat down and so forth do it where you squat down and so forth do it where you squat down and so forth do it where you can stand up that kind of thing you know can stand up that kind of thing you know can stand up that kind of thing you know don't just jump off the side of a boat don't just jump off the side of a boat don't just jump off the side of a boat or a pier or something like that because or a pier or something like that because or a pier or something like that because a sudden disappearance happens a lot in a sudden disappearance happens a lot in a sudden disappearance happens a lot in those cases so I would say yeah you can those cases so I would say yeah you can those cases so I would say yeah you can do it however most people aren't willing do it however most people aren't willing do it however most people aren't willing to do that because it is to do that because it is to do that because it is it's quite painful and unpleasant let's it's quite painful and unpleasant let's it's quite painful and unpleasant let's say they do go through that can they say they do go through that can they say they do go through that can they then just forget about a wetsuit or dry then just forget about a wetsuit or dry then just forget about a wetsuit or dry suit and I would say well suit and I would say well suit and I would say well that's still not a good idea because that's still not a good idea because that's still not a good idea because the next thing that you have to worry the next thing that you have to worry the next thing that you have to worry about and cold chalk is not going to about and cold chalk is not going to about and cold chalk is not going to last last last you know forever you know forever you know forever they'll say Well it lasts for they'll say Well it lasts for they'll say Well it lasts for three to four minutes that's in relaxed three to four minutes that's in relaxed three to four minutes that's in relaxed volunteers grad students in a lab with a volunteers grad students in a lab with a volunteers grad students in a lab with a professor there and they're not scared professor there and they're not scared professor there and they're not scared half to death you know but we what we half to death you know but we what we half to death you know but we what we see and we've got some examples of that
50:00see and we've got some examples of that see and we've got some examples of that on our website and on our website and on our website and you know one fellow was hyperventilating you know one fellow was hyperventilating you know one fellow was hyperventilating 30 40 minutes after he got back in his 30 40 minutes after he got back in his 30 40 minutes after he got back in his boat oh wow so boat oh wow so boat oh wow so so it's not as psychological phenomena so it's not as psychological phenomena so it's not as psychological phenomena well some of it's psychological but a well some of it's psychological but a well some of it's psychological but a lot of it is uh it's physiological on lot of it is uh it's physiological on lot of it is uh it's physiological on the front end it can't be controlled the front end it can't be controlled the front end it can't be controlled after a certain point it can be you know after a certain point it can be you know after a certain point it can be you know you can gradually get control of your you can gradually get control of your you can gradually get control of your breathing but the question is what are breathing but the question is what are breathing but the question is what are the circumstances the circumstances the circumstances it's the first time it happened to you it's the first time it happened to you it's the first time it happened to you like Randy moorgaard I mean he's he's like Randy moorgaard I mean he's he's like Randy moorgaard I mean he's he's just gotten back into his kayak with a just gotten back into his kayak with a just gotten back into his kayak with a paddle float rescue on the last try paddle float rescue on the last try paddle float rescue on the last try previous attempts having failed he knows previous attempts having failed he knows previous attempts having failed he knows it's his last shot it's his last shot it's his last shot he gets back in he gets back in he gets back in and and it's kind of a half-assed get and and it's kind of a half-assed get and and it's kind of a half-assed get back in because he's got something under back in because he's got something under back in because he's got something under his between his butt and the seat he's a his between his butt and the seat he's a his between his butt and the seat he's a little high and kayaks unstable and little high and kayaks unstable and little high and kayaks unstable and there's water in the rear hatch and he's
51:00there's water in the rear hatch and he's there's water in the rear hatch and he's paddling back to the to the put in paddling back to the to the put in paddling back to the to the put in well put yourself in his shoes well put yourself in his shoes well put yourself in his shoes psychologically I mean he could barely psychologically I mean he could barely psychologically I mean he could barely think straight when he finally got to think straight when he finally got to think straight when he finally got to the got to the takeout and he's the got to the takeout and he's the got to the takeout and he's he's he's out of the kayak and he's on he's he's out of the kayak and he's on he's he's out of the kayak and he's on Shore he is he is so rattled Shore he is he is so rattled Shore he is he is so rattled psychologically psychologically psychologically that he's just making all sorts of that he's just making all sorts of that he's just making all sorts of mistakes mistakes mistakes you know he starts the car turns the you know he starts the car turns the you know he starts the car turns the blower on doesn't turn on the heat I mean you know so I'm just saying it's I mean you know so I'm just saying it's this is a this is a this is a this is an extraordinarily big jolt to this is an extraordinarily big jolt to this is an extraordinarily big jolt to you physically and mentally and and that you physically and mentally and and that you physically and mentally and and that has to be appreciated has to be appreciated has to be appreciated back in the day 84 most of us had never back in the day 84 most of us had never back in the day 84 most of us had never seen a dry suit so it was wetsuits seen a dry suit so it was wetsuits seen a dry suit so it was wetsuits I have a wetsuit it's a seven mil Farmer I have a wetsuit it's a seven mil Farmer I have a wetsuit it's a seven mil Farmer John covered by a seven mil long sleeve John covered by a seven mil long sleeve John covered by a seven mil long sleeve shorty that's 14 millimeters of neoprene
52:00shorty that's 14 millimeters of neoprene shorty that's 14 millimeters of neoprene over my core over my core over my core and I can tell you back when I was in my and I can tell you back when I was in my and I can tell you back when I was in my 30s that wasn't a problem 30s that wasn't a problem 30s that wasn't a problem but but but I think it would be bloody exhausting I think it would be bloody exhausting I think it would be bloody exhausting boing boing try to paddle in that thing boing boing try to paddle in that thing boing boing try to paddle in that thing yeah but if we were going to paddle in yeah but if we were going to paddle in yeah but if we were going to paddle in Winter and the water temperature is 35 Winter and the water temperature is 35 Winter and the water temperature is 35 degrees and the Potomac River the degrees and the Potomac River the degrees and the Potomac River the Chesapeake Bay or whatever that's what Chesapeake Bay or whatever that's what Chesapeake Bay or whatever that's what you need you need you need it was like that or else this sensible it was like that or else this sensible it was like that or else this sensible thing would be just to park the kayak thing would be just to park the kayak thing would be just to park the kayak and don't paddle during the winter pick and don't paddle during the winter pick and don't paddle during the winter pick it up you know when the water warms back it up you know when the water warms back it up you know when the water warms back up wherever it happens to be you can up wherever it happens to be you can up wherever it happens to be you can wear a two mil wetsuit and if it's snug wear a two mil wetsuit and if it's snug wear a two mil wetsuit and if it's snug it's going to prevent cold shock it's going to prevent cold shock it's going to prevent cold shock it's not going to delay incapacitation it's not going to delay incapacitation it's not going to delay incapacitation that long that long that long but it will prevent Cold Shot because it but it will prevent Cold Shot because it but it will prevent Cold Shot because it prevents the water from getting right prevents the water from getting right prevents the water from getting right next to your skin so there are nuances next to your skin so there are nuances next to your skin so there are nuances to this to this to this that I think people that I think people that I think people don't necessarily understand we go over
53:00don't necessarily understand we go over don't necessarily understand we go over all of that stuff on our website in the all of that stuff on our website in the all of that stuff on our website in the gear section and in the cold shock and gear section and in the cold shock and gear section and in the cold shock and capacitation section you know it's a capacitation section you know it's a capacitation section you know it's a it's a very robust website if anybody it's a very robust website if anybody it's a very robust website if anybody wants to to go there and dig deep you wants to to go there and dig deep you wants to to go there and dig deep you will come away knowing a lot about this will come away knowing a lot about this will come away knowing a lot about this yeah I found it extremely informative yeah I found it extremely informative yeah I found it extremely informative and um I especially like the case index and um I especially like the case index and um I especially like the case index where you have examples of uh all these where you have examples of uh all these where you have examples of uh all these case histories yeah real life examples case histories yeah real life examples case histories yeah real life examples of close calls and fatalities of close calls and fatalities of close calls and fatalities I think those really drive the point I think those really drive the point I think those really drive the point home and and I completely redid the home and and I completely redid the home and and I completely redid the website a year ago website a year ago website a year ago and God that was a lot of work I could and God that was a lot of work I could and God that was a lot of work I could have written three books about the time have written three books about the time have written three books about the time but I like the new platform in the sense but I like the new platform in the sense but I like the new platform in the sense that it enabled me to put a case index that it enabled me to put a case index that it enabled me to put a case index like that where you can find the cases like that where you can find the cases like that where you can find the cases at the end of each one of the golden at the end of each one of the golden at the end of each one of the golden rules we've got five golden rules for rules we've got five golden rules for rules we've got five golden rules for colder safety at the end of each one of colder safety at the end of each one of colder safety at the end of each one of those Golden Rule sections you know are
54:00those Golden Rule sections you know are those Golden Rule sections you know are some cases but you can find them all some cases but you can find them all some cases but you can find them all together in the case index and there's together in the case index and there's together in the case index and there's also a video uh index and there's a an also a video uh index and there's a an also a video uh index and there's a an index of Articles those three things I index of Articles those three things I index of Articles those three things I think make it it much easier to navigate think make it it much easier to navigate think make it it much easier to navigate let's say than the than the old website let's say than the than the old website let's say than the than the old website well now that you mentioned the five well now that you mentioned the five well now that you mentioned the five golden rules could you uh elaborate on golden rules could you uh elaborate on golden rules could you uh elaborate on those those those sure and they're practical well I was sure and they're practical well I was sure and they're practical well I was thinking about this I go what can we thinking about this I go what can we thinking about this I go what can we what can we tell people what can we tell people what can we tell people and you know you could come up with and you know you could come up with and you know you could come up with three golden rules I suppose or six old three golden rules I suppose or six old three golden rules I suppose or six old murals or whatever I settled on five murals or whatever I settled on five murals or whatever I settled on five because those were the five most because those were the five most because those were the five most important things and I think he said important things and I think he said important things and I think he said well what could you do to give people well what could you do to give people well what could you do to give people enough information to build themselves enough information to build themselves enough information to build themselves let's say a pretty good safety net for let's say a pretty good safety net for let's say a pretty good safety net for cold water kayaking cold water kayaking cold water kayaking so the first one of course is always so the first one of course is always so the first one of course is always wear your PFD wear your PFD wear your PFD and what we mean by that is not just and what we mean by that is not just and what we mean by that is not just stick it under your bungee cords but stick it under your bungee cords but stick it under your bungee cords but wear it make sure it's properly sized
55:00wear it make sure it's properly sized wear it make sure it's properly sized make sure it's properly fitted so there make sure it's properly fitted so there make sure it's properly fitted so there works when you're actually in the water works when you're actually in the water works when you're actually in the water because without the PFD as Chuck because without the PFD as Chuck because without the PFD as Chuck Sutherland used to say you don't stand a Sutherland used to say you don't stand a Sutherland used to say you don't stand a chance you really don't chance you really don't chance you really don't you're not going to be swimming for sure you're not going to be swimming for sure you're not going to be swimming for sure or whatever or whatever or whatever so that's the first one the second one so that's the first one the second one so that's the first one the second one is is always dressed for the water temperature always dressed for the water temperature always dressed for the water temperature and that means wetsuit or dry suit more and that means wetsuit or dry suit more and that means wetsuit or dry suit more some common hybrid combination at that some common hybrid combination at that some common hybrid combination at that yes yes yes and then there is uh field test your and then there is uh field test your and then there is uh field test your gear and swim test your gear and the gear and swim test your gear and the gear and swim test your gear and the difference between those two field tests difference between those two field tests difference between those two field tests just means you get a new piece of gear just means you get a new piece of gear just means you get a new piece of gear or you're going out in in colder water or you're going out in in colder water or you're going out in in colder water for the first time you need to check for the first time you need to check for the first time you need to check that gear out and make sure you know that gear out and make sure you know that gear out and make sure you know how it works how it works how it works you know if you're wearing pogies and you know if you're wearing pogies and you know if you're wearing pogies and you're going to find out very very you're going to find out very very you're going to find out very very quickly that when you pull your hands quickly that when you pull your hands quickly that when you pull your hands out of the pogies to do a rescue you out of the pogies to do a rescue you out of the pogies to do a rescue you have nothing have nothing have nothing for protection and so you can lose the for protection and so you can lose the for protection and so you can lose the use of your hands very quickly while
56:00use of your hands very quickly while use of your hands very quickly while you're still toasty warm in your dry you're still toasty warm in your dry you're still toasty warm in your dry suit suit suit and if you can't use your hands you're and if you can't use your hands you're and if you can't use your hands you're not in a very good situation so field not in a very good situation so field not in a very good situation so field test your gear test your gear test your gear our Point here is that all of this stuff our Point here is that all of this stuff our Point here is that all of this stuff should properly be viewed as survival should properly be viewed as survival should properly be viewed as survival gear because in a cold water capsize gear because in a cold water capsize gear because in a cold water capsize your life is going to definitely depend your life is going to definitely depend your life is going to definitely depend on it so you better know how it works on it so you better know how it works on it so you better know how it works you better make sure that it works you better make sure that it works you better make sure that it works properly if there are any flaws in the properly if there are any flaws in the properly if there are any flaws in the system system system those are going to become apparent those are going to become apparent those are going to become apparent during your field testing where should during your field testing where should during your field testing where should you feel tests someplace safe you know you feel tests someplace safe you know you feel tests someplace safe you know preferably with some buddies you know a preferably with some buddies you know a preferably with some buddies you know a little Cove or something where you little Cove or something where you little Cove or something where you you know you can get to shore quickly you know you can get to shore quickly you know you can get to shore quickly and somebody's there you know I got a and somebody's there you know I got a and somebody's there you know I got a great letter from a guy who wore his great letter from a guy who wore his great letter from a guy who wore his toaster knits for the first time and he toaster knits for the first time and he toaster knits for the first time and he um um he couldn't feel his grab Loop when he's he couldn't feel his grab Loop when he's he couldn't feel his grab Loop when he's upside down and um he finally had the upside down and um he finally had the upside down and um he finally had the presence of mind to hook his thumb into
57:00presence of mind to hook his thumb into presence of mind to hook his thumb into the ground Loop you found it enough to the ground Loop you found it enough to the ground Loop you found it enough to hook his thumb into it because he hook his thumb into it because he hook his thumb into it because he couldn't he couldn't grasp it well couldn't he couldn't grasp it well couldn't he couldn't grasp it well enough with the neoprene mittens and he enough with the neoprene mittens and he enough with the neoprene mittens and he popped the skirt popped the skirt popped the skirt and boy he's on a mission to tell people and boy he's on a mission to tell people and boy he's on a mission to tell people about that wow so that's field testing the other wow so that's field testing the other part is swim testing and that just means part is swim testing and that just means part is swim testing and that just means you know you get to put in uh way down you know you get to put in uh way down you know you get to put in uh way down into the water and make sure that uh you into the water and make sure that uh you into the water and make sure that uh you don't have too much air in the suit you don't have too much air in the suit you don't have too much air in the suit you haven't burped it so much that you've haven't burped it so much that you've haven't burped it so much that you've squashed your insulation squashed your insulation squashed your insulation and if you do that at the beginning of and if you do that at the beginning of and if you do that at the beginning of the let's say the off season if you swim the let's say the off season if you swim the let's say the off season if you swim test you just go in you know wade into test you just go in you know wade into test you just go in you know wade into the water and squat down swim around a the water and squat down swim around a the water and squat down swim around a little tiny bit you're going to get a little tiny bit you're going to get a little tiny bit you're going to get a very good sense as to whether or not you very good sense as to whether or not you very good sense as to whether or not you have enough insulation underneath that have enough insulation underneath that have enough insulation underneath that dry suit or whether or not the the dry suit or whether or not the the dry suit or whether or not the the wetsuit fits right or if it's going to wetsuit fits right or if it's going to wetsuit fits right or if it's going to work you're going to get some immediate work you're going to get some immediate work you're going to get some immediate feedback if you take the temperature of feedback if you take the temperature of feedback if you take the temperature of the water at the same time look at the the water at the same time look at the the water at the same time look at the thermometer that reinforces it in your thermometer that reinforces it in your thermometer that reinforces it in your brain and if you do that consistently
58:00brain and if you do that consistently brain and if you do that consistently then by the time the spring rolls around then by the time the spring rolls around then by the time the spring rolls around you're going to have a damn good sense you're going to have a damn good sense you're going to have a damn good sense of let's say somebody says well water of let's say somebody says well water of let's say somebody says well water temperature is 45 you're going to know temperature is 45 you're going to know temperature is 45 you're going to know what to wear because you've practiced it what to wear because you've practiced it what to wear because you've practiced it George gronseth of Kayak Academy would George gronseth of Kayak Academy would George gronseth of Kayak Academy would every year he would have people come in every year he would have people come in every year he would have people come in uh the middle of the winter uh the middle of the winter uh the middle of the winter yeah January 1st I think yo was it yeah yeah January 1st I think yo was it yeah yeah January 1st I think yo was it yeah it would sit in the Lake Sammamish and it would sit in the Lake Sammamish and it would sit in the Lake Sammamish and and see how long they could float in the and see how long they could float in the and see how long they could float in the water with their dry stuff I think I water with their dry stuff I think I water with their dry stuff I think I think that was a wonderful thing that think that was a wonderful thing that think that was a wonderful thing that George did a huge contribution because I George did a huge contribution because I George did a huge contribution because I was on the East Coast at the time didn't was on the East Coast at the time didn't was on the East Coast at the time didn't attend but um from what I hear and in my attend but um from what I hear and in my attend but um from what I hear and in my experience with these kind of of tests experience with these kind of of tests experience with these kind of of tests people really underestimate how long people really underestimate how long people really underestimate how long they're going to be able to stay in and they're going to be able to stay in and they're going to be able to stay in and they come back out of the water they come back out of the water they come back out of the water you know convinced that they need to do you know convinced that they need to do you know convinced that they need to do a little more homework oh yeah and a a little more homework oh yeah and a a little more homework oh yeah and a little more practice because they just little more practice because they just little more practice because they just think oh you know it's going to work and think oh you know it's going to work and think oh you know it's going to work and they're in there and they're freezing they're in there and they're freezing they're in there and they're freezing very quickly become very cold and
59:00very quickly become very cold and very quickly become very cold and they're surprised and I think that's they're surprised and I think that's they're surprised and I think that's good because that is a practical good because that is a practical good because that is a practical exercise that injects reality into the exercise that injects reality into the exercise that injects reality into the system because we are excellent system because we are excellent system because we are excellent at fooling ourselves surprised and lies at fooling ourselves surprised and lies at fooling ourselves surprised and lies justify you know tell tell ourselves justify you know tell tell ourselves justify you know tell tell ourselves stories that are just you know even stories that are just you know even stories that are just you know even wearing a dry suit and a reasonable wearing a dry suit and a reasonable wearing a dry suit and a reasonable amount of insulation yeah how long how amount of insulation yeah how long how amount of insulation yeah how long how long could you be in cold water no but long could you be in cold water no but long could you be in cold water no but nobody knows because that's uh going to nobody knows because that's uh going to nobody knows because that's uh going to depend number one on depend number one on depend number one on if you're a tall thin person it's going if you're a tall thin person it's going if you're a tall thin person it's going to be less than if you're a person with to be less than if you're a person with to be less than if you're a person with a lot about body fat so that's inside a lot about body fat so that's inside a lot about body fat so that's inside the dry suit or just in the water the dry suit or just in the water the dry suit or just in the water without the dry suit that's one of the without the dry suit that's one of the without the dry suit that's one of the variables that makes it hard to variables that makes it hard to variables that makes it hard to generalize the other one is how much generalize the other one is how much generalize the other one is how much insulation you're going to wear insulation you're going to wear insulation you're going to wear underneath the dry suit and whether or underneath the dry suit and whether or underneath the dry suit and whether or not you have burped not you have burped not you have burped the dry suit to get the excess air out the dry suit to get the excess air out the dry suit to get the excess air out and you burped it so much that you look
1:00and you burped it so much that you look and you burped it so much that you look like a shrink wrapped hot dog like a shrink wrapped hot dog like a shrink wrapped hot dog when that suit shrinks down it squashes when that suit shrinks down it squashes when that suit shrinks down it squashes the insulation underneath and there's an the insulation underneath and there's an the insulation underneath and there's an old adage and Wilderness Travel about old adage and Wilderness Travel about old adage and Wilderness Travel about keeping warm and that is that in terms keeping warm and that is that in terms keeping warm and that is that in terms of insulation thickness equals warmth of insulation thickness equals warmth of insulation thickness equals warmth so if you squash that thickness you're so if you squash that thickness you're so if you squash that thickness you're not going to last as long but this is not going to last as long but this is not going to last as long but this is why we say you need to go out there and why we say you need to go out there and why we say you need to go out there and field test your deer field test your deer field test your deer and swim test your gear because you need and swim test your gear because you need and swim test your gear because you need to know to know to know not from some generalized table but you not from some generalized table but you not from some generalized table but you need to know from direct personal need to know from direct personal need to know from direct personal experience how long you can stay out experience how long you can stay out experience how long you can stay out and whether or not your gear Works and whether or not your gear Works and whether or not your gear Works whether or not your gloves are whether or not your gloves are whether or not your gloves are sufficient sufficient sufficient and whether or not you left the relief and whether or not you left the relief and whether or not you left the relief zipper open which is something swim zipper open which is something swim zipper open which is something swim testing reveals to you at a high rate of testing reveals to you at a high rate of testing reveals to you at a high rate of speed and believe me I've done it it'll last you know there's a little it'll last you know there's a little last Notch you know on the and if you last Notch you know on the and if you last Notch you know on the and if you just don't you know if you're like you just don't you know if you're like you just don't you know if you're like you can't see down there the PFD is in the can't see down there the PFD is in the can't see down there the PFD is in the way you know you're like going on faith
1:01way you know you're like going on faith way you know you're like going on faith you don't quite get it all the way you don't quite get it all the way you don't quite get it all the way closed and you wait in this oh no usually it happens after you've stopped usually it happens after you've stopped on the beach for a bathroom break yeah on the beach for a bathroom break yeah on the beach for a bathroom break yeah exactly exactly exactly oh the final Golden Rule is uh try to oh the final Golden Rule is uh try to oh the final Golden Rule is uh try to figure out the worst thing that could figure out the worst thing that could figure out the worst thing that could happen all the bad things that could happen all the bad things that could happen all the bad things that could happen and prepare for them and we give happen and prepare for them and we give happen and prepare for them and we give you a whole list of things that have you a whole list of things that have you a whole list of things that have happened to help prime the pump because happened to help prime the pump because happened to help prime the pump because I think people that don't have a lot of I think people that don't have a lot of I think people that don't have a lot of experience or haven't read a lot of experience or haven't read a lot of experience or haven't read a lot of accident reports which is most kayakers accident reports which is most kayakers accident reports which is most kayakers they have trouble imagining they have trouble imagining they have trouble imagining all the things that can possibly go all the things that can possibly go all the things that can possibly go wrong on you in a simple outing and so wrong on you in a simple outing and so wrong on you in a simple outing and so that's the five golden rules and we sort that's the five golden rules and we sort that's the five golden rules and we sort of feel that if you pay attention to of feel that if you pay attention to of feel that if you pay attention to those you know you're gonna you're gonna those you know you're gonna you're gonna those you know you're gonna you're gonna be in a lot better position to be safe be in a lot better position to be safe be in a lot better position to be safe out on cold water now we didn't uh we out on cold water now we didn't uh we out on cold water now we didn't uh we talked about cold shock but we didn't talked about cold shock but we didn't talked about cold shock but we didn't talk too much about the next stage which talk too much about the next stage which talk too much about the next stage which would be hypothermia well you've got would be hypothermia well you've got would be hypothermia well you've got incapacitation okay in between them so
1:02incapacitation okay in between them so incapacitation okay in between them so cold Chuck let's say cold shock uh you cold Chuck let's say cold shock uh you cold Chuck let's say cold shock uh you know is diminishing it's over know is diminishing it's over know is diminishing it's over the second you get in the water even the second you get in the water even the second you get in the water even while coal shock is going on you're while coal shock is going on you're while coal shock is going on you're losing Heat losing Heat losing Heat and so the question is and so the question is and so the question is how long is it going to take how long is it going to take how long is it going to take before your muscles become too cold to before your muscles become too cold to before your muscles become too cold to function and your nerves become too cold function and your nerves become too cold function and your nerves become too cold to fire those muscles to fire those muscles to fire those muscles cold water drowning cold water drowning cold water drowning tends to occur in two places in this tends to occur in two places in this tends to occur in two places in this whole picture first in Cold Shot because whole picture first in Cold Shot because whole picture first in Cold Shot because you're completely lost control of your you're completely lost control of your you're completely lost control of your breathing and if your mouth is breathing and if your mouth is breathing and if your mouth is underwater of course you know you inhale underwater of course you know you inhale underwater of course you know you inhale water and drown okay that's one the water and drown okay that's one the water and drown okay that's one the other is when you become so cold other is when you become so cold other is when you become so cold that you can no longer function and that you can no longer function and that you can no longer function and that's that's true of swimming failure that's that's true of swimming failure that's that's true of swimming failure also so swimming failure can occur in also so swimming failure can occur in also so swimming failure can occur in the Cold Shot phase it can also occur in the Cold Shot phase it can also occur in the Cold Shot phase it can also occur in the incapacitation phase where your arms
1:03the incapacitation phase where your arms the incapacitation phase where your arms and legs become so cold that you know and legs become so cold that you know and legs become so cold that you know you just simply can't swim anymore okay you just simply can't swim anymore okay you just simply can't swim anymore okay that's something to be concerned about that's something to be concerned about that's something to be concerned about and how long that takes depends again on and how long that takes depends again on and how long that takes depends again on how much insulation you've got how much how much insulation you've got how much how much insulation you've got how much body fat I do think that one thing body fat I do think that one thing body fat I do think that one thing that's under appreciated is the fact that's under appreciated is the fact that's under appreciated is the fact that you can lose the use of your hands that you can lose the use of your hands that you can lose the use of your hands in minutes in minutes in minutes while you're still toasty warm inside while you're still toasty warm inside while you're still toasty warm inside your dry suit so the hand protection is your dry suit so the hand protection is your dry suit so the hand protection is very important I think very important I think very important I think um head protection is also very um head protection is also very um head protection is also very important important important incapacitation is a gradual thing at incapacitation is a gradual thing at incapacitation is a gradual thing at first you're cold you become weak then first you're cold you become weak then first you're cold you become weak then you become weaker and finally you can't you become weaker and finally you can't you become weaker and finally you can't function at all when I say you can't function at all when I say you can't function at all when I say you can't function at all I mean you're hanging function at all I mean you're hanging function at all I mean you're hanging in the water in the water in the water in your life jacket and you are helpless in your life jacket and you are helpless in your life jacket and you are helpless you can't move your arms and legs now in you can't move your arms and legs now in you can't move your arms and legs now in rough water especially when waves are rough water especially when waves are rough water especially when waves are coming at you from a certain direction coming at you from a certain direction coming at you from a certain direction the waves have a turning force on your
1:04the waves have a turning force on your the waves have a turning force on your body and so you will naturally be turned body and so you will naturally be turned body and so you will naturally be turned until you're facing waves now at that until you're facing waves now at that until you're facing waves now at that point they're hitting you and they're point they're hitting you and they're point they're hitting you and they're going up into your face going up into your face going up into your face not a good thing you automatically hold not a good thing you automatically hold not a good thing you automatically hold your breath if you're hit from behind by your breath if you're hit from behind by your breath if you're hit from behind by the wave but trying to synchronize your the wave but trying to synchronize your the wave but trying to synchronize your your breathing in rough water to this your breathing in rough water to this your breathing in rough water to this Wave Splash is something that is very Wave Splash is something that is very Wave Splash is something that is very difficult to do over time difficult to do over time difficult to do over time and so this is a slow and so this is a slow and so this is a slow nasty incremental process by which you nasty incremental process by which you nasty incremental process by which you inhale a little bit of water here a inhale a little bit of water here a inhale a little bit of water here a little bit of water there and eventually little bit of water there and eventually little bit of water there and eventually your lungs are so waterlogged down your lungs are so waterlogged down your lungs are so waterlogged down one of I think perhaps the most one of I think perhaps the most one of I think perhaps the most unpleasant ways to die that I I can unpleasant ways to die that I I can unpleasant ways to die that I I can think of in a natural environment so think of in a natural environment so think of in a natural environment so that's that part of it which I think that's that part of it which I think that's that part of it which I think again I don't think people have a very again I don't think people have a very again I don't think people have a very great appreciation of but hypothermia great appreciation of but hypothermia great appreciation of but hypothermia that happens when your body cools enough
1:05that happens when your body cools enough that happens when your body cools enough so that your core temperature begins to so that your core temperature begins to so that your core temperature begins to drop drop drop core temperature think of it as core temperature think of it as core temperature think of it as almost 100 degrees it's 99.6 average almost 100 degrees it's 99.6 average almost 100 degrees it's 99.6 average oral temperature is 98.6 core oral temperature is 98.6 core oral temperature is 98.6 core temperature is generally a degree higher temperature is generally a degree higher temperature is generally a degree higher and and because the British started the research because the British started the research because the British started the research they defined they defined they defined clinical hypothermia as anything below clinical hypothermia as anything below clinical hypothermia as anything below 95 core temperature 95 core temperature 95 core temperature so so from a medical standpoint if a doctor from a medical standpoint if a doctor from a medical standpoint if a doctor says well the person was hypothermic the says well the person was hypothermic the says well the person was hypothermic the definition there is that they had to be definition there is that they had to be definition there is that they had to be below 95. but by the time you get to 95 below 95. but by the time you get to 95 below 95. but by the time you get to 95 your your your going to be in pretty bad shape going to be in pretty bad shape going to be in pretty bad shape and if you think about you know moving and if you think about you know moving and if you think about you know moving down from 95 by the time you get to 85 down from 95 by the time you get to 85 down from 95 by the time you get to 85 which is only a 10 degree difference which is only a 10 degree difference which is only a 10 degree difference your heart becomes very vulnerable to uh
1:06your heart becomes very vulnerable to uh your heart becomes very vulnerable to uh abnormal heartbeats abnormal rhythms and abnormal heartbeats abnormal rhythms and abnormal heartbeats abnormal rhythms and so it's a very dangerous very dangerous so it's a very dangerous very dangerous so it's a very dangerous very dangerous situation it's all sorts of situation it's all sorts of situation it's all sorts of complications in terms of the difficulty complications in terms of the difficulty complications in terms of the difficulty of rewarming people and on and on and on of rewarming people and on and on and on of rewarming people and on and on and on for a practical standpoint what I for a practical standpoint what I for a practical standpoint what I say to kayakers is if you're out say to kayakers is if you're out say to kayakers is if you're out kayaking with a bunch of your mates kayaking with a bunch of your mates kayaking with a bunch of your mates the first question I ask in the winter the first question I ask in the winter the first question I ask in the winter time is is everybody's hands and feet time is is everybody's hands and feet time is is everybody's hands and feet horn horn horn hands and feet warm hands and feet warm hands and feet warm if not says to me that if not says to me that if not says to me that their body is not producing enough heat their body is not producing enough heat their body is not producing enough heat because the first thing that your body because the first thing that your body because the first thing that your body does if this is an automatic process it does if this is an automatic process it does if this is an automatic process it reduces circulation to the hands and reduces circulation to the hands and reduces circulation to the hands and feet the arms and legs feet the arms and legs feet the arms and legs and the hands if you look at them they and the hands if you look at them they and the hands if you look at them they are a little bit of palm and a whole are a little bit of palm and a whole are a little bit of palm and a whole bunch of bunch of bunch of small diameter cylinders which have a
1:07small diameter cylinders which have a small diameter cylinders which have a high surface area from which you can high surface area from which you can high surface area from which you can lose heat so they're very hard to keep lose heat so they're very hard to keep lose heat so they're very hard to keep warm there at the tail end of the warm there at the tail end of the warm there at the tail end of the pipeline the only thing pipeline the only thing pipeline the only thing that keeps them warm is blood flowing that keeps them warm is blood flowing that keeps them warm is blood flowing from the warmer core area out to the from the warmer core area out to the from the warmer core area out to the hands and down to the feet hands and down to the feet hands and down to the feet and if you are having difficulty keeping and if you are having difficulty keeping and if you are having difficulty keeping yourself warm the body automatically yourself warm the body automatically yourself warm the body automatically reduces that reduces that reduces that flow of warm blood so you know you're flow of warm blood so you know you're flow of warm blood so you know you're working against yourself there working against yourself there working against yourself there I always say hands and feet one if they I always say hands and feet one if they I always say hands and feet one if they are fine some people say oh you know you are fine some people say oh you know you are fine some people say oh you know you can't wear uh can't wear uh can't wear uh wetsuits or dry suits when the air wetsuits or dry suits when the air wetsuits or dry suits when the air temperature is high and the water temperature is high and the water temperature is high and the water temperature is cold because of a danger temperature is cold because of a danger temperature is cold because of a danger of overheating and I would say no that's of overheating and I would say no that's of overheating and I would say no that's not that's not the case at all you can not that's not the case at all you can not that's not the case at all you can finesse this we've got a whole section finesse this we've got a whole section finesse this we've got a whole section on the website how to avoid overheating on the website how to avoid overheating on the website how to avoid overheating which is you know which is you know which is you know my other area of expertise you know heat my other area of expertise you know heat my other area of expertise you know heat stress so how do you keep you cool in stress so how do you keep you cool in stress so how do you keep you cool in the heat very simple you use evaporation the heat very simple you use evaporation the heat very simple you use evaporation uh to cool yourself and it's takes a
1:08uh to cool yourself and it's takes a uh to cool yourself and it's takes a little bit of practice rolling is really little bit of practice rolling is really little bit of practice rolling is really good for keeping cool too good for keeping cool too good for keeping cool too absolutely it's wonderful for it my absolutely it's wonderful for it my absolutely it's wonderful for it my kayak partner Brian price used to call kayak partner Brian price used to call kayak partner Brian price used to call that rotary cooling that rotary cooling that rotary cooling but it is it's absolutely great and the but it is it's absolutely great and the but it is it's absolutely great and the other thing is you can take some very other thing is you can take some very other thing is you can take some very practical steps for example if I'm practical steps for example if I'm practical steps for example if I'm paddling along and I'm I'm getting a paddling along and I'm I'm getting a paddling along and I'm I'm getting a little too warm but I don't necessarily little too warm but I don't necessarily little too warm but I don't necessarily want a roll to keep cool because maybe I want a roll to keep cool because maybe I want a roll to keep cool because maybe I don't know there's the water isn't very don't know there's the water isn't very don't know there's the water isn't very pretty or whatever what I can do is I pretty or whatever what I can do is I pretty or whatever what I can do is I can reach up and I can grab the hood of can reach up and I can grab the hood of can reach up and I can grab the hood of my uh my wetsuit my neoprene hood and my uh my wetsuit my neoprene hood and my uh my wetsuit my neoprene hood and just pull it back off my head and splash just pull it back off my head and splash just pull it back off my head and splash some water on top of my hair you can be some water on top of my hair you can be some water on top of my hair you can be very active or participatory if you will very active or participatory if you will very active or participatory if you will in in making these adjustments to your in in making these adjustments to your in in making these adjustments to your level of comfort and since you're level of comfort and since you're level of comfort and since you're surrounded by warm water surrounded by warm water surrounded by warm water it's quite easy to do it's quite easy to do it's quite easy to do yeah it's a good time for rescue yeah it's a good time for rescue yeah it's a good time for rescue practice okay well let's just pause here practice okay well let's just pause here practice okay well let's just pause here for a second people are getting too warm
1:09for a second people are getting too warm for a second people are getting too warm top out of the boats or let's pull top out of the boats or let's pull top out of the boats or let's pull ashore and wade into the water ashore and wade into the water ashore and wade into the water you know lie around for three or four you know lie around for three or four you know lie around for three or four minutes it's not like it's going to take minutes it's not like it's going to take minutes it's not like it's going to take a huge amount of time off of the outing a huge amount of time off of the outing a huge amount of time off of the outing it's a habit of mind that you say well it's a habit of mind that you say well it's a habit of mind that you say well I'm a little too warm I'm dressed for I'm a little too warm I'm dressed for I'm a little too warm I'm dressed for the water temperature but I'm a little the water temperature but I'm a little the water temperature but I'm a little too warm because now all of a sudden the too warm because now all of a sudden the too warm because now all of a sudden the sun came out from behind the clouds so sun came out from behind the clouds so sun came out from behind the clouds so what am I going to do about that in what am I going to do about that in what am I going to do about that in order to reduce that feeling of being order to reduce that feeling of being order to reduce that feeling of being too warm and it's easy to do if you too warm and it's easy to do if you too warm and it's easy to do if you practice it and we really give you a practice it and we really give you a practice it and we really give you a a beautiful road map on the website for a beautiful road map on the website for a beautiful road map on the website for how to accomplish that how to accomplish that how to accomplish that back to hypothermia what are the most back to hypothermia what are the most back to hypothermia what are the most effective rewarming strategies effective rewarming strategies effective rewarming strategies well the first thing I would say is well the first thing I would say is well the first thing I would say is hypothermia is a hell of a lot easier to hypothermia is a hell of a lot easier to hypothermia is a hell of a lot easier to prevent than it is to treat in the field prevent than it is to treat in the field prevent than it is to treat in the field because what are you going to do because what are you going to do because what are you going to do you say well oh you say well oh you say well oh a person is too cold you know we're a person is too cold you know we're a person is too cold you know we're going to take them undertow well if you
1:10going to take them undertow well if you going to take them undertow well if you take them under toe they damn well take them under toe they damn well take them under toe they damn well better keep paddling better keep paddling better keep paddling because the minute they stop paddling because the minute they stop paddling because the minute they stop paddling all of a sudden you gotta drop in heat all of a sudden you gotta drop in heat all of a sudden you gotta drop in heat production production production and they're going to get even colder and they're going to get even colder and they're going to get even colder in Wilderness First Responders EMT in Wilderness First Responders EMT in Wilderness First Responders EMT courses and stuff what I would say to courses and stuff what I would say to courses and stuff what I would say to people is people is people is let's say it's a scenario you're on let's say it's a scenario you're on let's say it's a scenario you're on Shore Here Comes somebody paddling in Shore Here Comes somebody paddling in Shore Here Comes somebody paddling in and they they're supposedly hypothermic and they they're supposedly hypothermic and they they're supposedly hypothermic or they're chilled or they're shivering or they're chilled or they're shivering or they're chilled or they're shivering or whatever or whatever but they're you know coherent they're but they're you know coherent they're but they're you know coherent they're just really cold shivering just really cold shivering just really cold shivering is an early warning sign it occurs is an early warning sign it occurs is an early warning sign it occurs before long before hypothermia develops before long before hypothermia develops before long before hypothermia develops so if anybody is shivering that's a red so if anybody is shivering that's a red so if anybody is shivering that's a red flag flag flag so I would say you've got a couple of so I would say you've got a couple of so I would say you've got a couple of choices there you know you keep paddling choices there you know you keep paddling choices there you know you keep paddling where else you pull ashore and put more where else you pull ashore and put more where else you pull ashore and put more warm clothes on them you you warm clothes on them you you warm clothes on them you you troubleshoot the problem troubleshoot the problem troubleshoot the problem and maybe it's that uh you know their and maybe it's that uh you know their and maybe it's that uh you know their outer layer is too wet you need to slip outer layer is too wet you need to slip outer layer is too wet you need to slip a garbage bag over them with a couple of a garbage bag over them with a couple of a garbage bag over them with a couple of holes for arms and then get back on the
1:11holes for arms and then get back on the holes for arms and then get back on the water and keep paddling you know because water and keep paddling you know because water and keep paddling you know because you want to cut down on that evaporative you want to cut down on that evaporative you want to cut down on that evaporative heat loss heat loss heat loss in that scenario where people are coming in that scenario where people are coming in that scenario where people are coming to shore somebody's paddling sure to shore somebody's paddling sure to shore somebody's paddling sure they're shivering I get them out of the they're shivering I get them out of the they're shivering I get them out of the kayak and I'd immediately start them kayak and I'd immediately start them kayak and I'd immediately start them walking walking walking I don't want to put them down on a pad I don't want to put them down on a pad I don't want to put them down on a pad if they can make sense and they're if they can make sense and they're if they can make sense and they're simply cold then I want to get heat simply cold then I want to get heat simply cold then I want to get heat production going okay I want to I want production going okay I want to I want production going okay I want to I want to jump start the furnace I'm going to to jump start the furnace I'm going to to jump start the furnace I'm going to turn up the thermostat now if they've turn up the thermostat now if they've turn up the thermostat now if they've got wet clothes on and you can replace got wet clothes on and you can replace got wet clothes on and you can replace those with dry clothes quickly and then those with dry clothes quickly and then those with dry clothes quickly and then slap a garbage bag on them or whatever slap a garbage bag on them or whatever slap a garbage bag on them or whatever to cut down on windshield and so forth to cut down on windshield and so forth to cut down on windshield and so forth go ahead and do that real fast and then go ahead and do that real fast and then go ahead and do that real fast and then get them walking because they are going get them walking because they are going get them walking because they are going to warm up but if it's gone far enough to warm up but if it's gone far enough to warm up but if it's gone far enough that you're dealing with a with an that you're dealing with a with an that you're dealing with a with an actual hypothermia situation then you actual hypothermia situation then you actual hypothermia situation then you know know you're talking about a bivouac that you're talking about a bivouac that you're talking about a bivouac that means what are you going to do it's it's means what are you going to do it's it's means what are you going to do it's it's extraordinarily difficult to handle that extraordinarily difficult to handle that extraordinarily difficult to handle that in the field in the field in the field now let's say you get camping gear and
1:12now let's say you get camping gear and now let's say you get camping gear and so forth you pull out you can't just lay so forth you pull out you can't just lay so forth you pull out you can't just lay them down on the ground they're going to them down on the ground they're going to them down on the ground they're going to lose more heat to the ground so you got lose more heat to the ground so you got lose more heat to the ground so you got to have an insulating pad underneath to have an insulating pad underneath to have an insulating pad underneath them them them gotta get them out of their their wet gotta get them out of their their wet gotta get them out of their their wet clothes you know you gotta do the best clothes you know you gotta do the best clothes you know you gotta do the best you can to reduce heat loss by you can to reduce heat loss by you can to reduce heat loss by conduction convection radiation conduction convection radiation conduction convection radiation evaporation there are only a certain evaporation there are only a certain evaporation there are only a certain number of ways that the body loses heat number of ways that the body loses heat number of ways that the body loses heat you've got to address every single one you've got to address every single one you've got to address every single one of them of them of them I guess what I'm saying is you know I guess what I'm saying is you know I guess what I'm saying is you know there are a lot of these scenarios there are a lot of these scenarios there are a lot of these scenarios people want to learn all about how to people want to learn all about how to people want to learn all about how to treat hypothermia they're trying to get treat hypothermia they're trying to get treat hypothermia they're trying to get them to memorize the umbles and the them to memorize the umbles and the them to memorize the umbles and the humble stumble stuff I'm just thinking humble stumble stuff I'm just thinking humble stumble stuff I'm just thinking that's fine that's fine that's fine but wouldn't it be nice but wouldn't it be nice but wouldn't it be nice if we could prevent that from happening if we could prevent that from happening if we could prevent that from happening in the first place yeah in the first place yeah in the first place yeah so a lot of my career so a lot of my career so a lot of my career in the wilderness when I was in in the wilderness when I was in in the wilderness when I was in Washington DC running National heat Washington DC running National heat Washington DC running National heat stress programs it was prevention stress programs it was prevention stress programs it was prevention recognizing early warning signs and recognizing early warning signs and recognizing early warning signs and prevention
1:13prevention prevention because none of these things are easy to because none of these things are easy to because none of these things are easy to deal with once they get deal with once they get deal with once they get once the person gets hypothermic I mean once the person gets hypothermic I mean once the person gets hypothermic I mean man man man trying to deal with that in the field trying to deal with that in the field trying to deal with that in the field you got everybody else you know let's you got everybody else you know let's you got everybody else you know let's say it's winds blowing and it's raining say it's winds blowing and it's raining say it's winds blowing and it's raining you're trying to deal with this person you're trying to deal with this person you're trying to deal with this person with everybody else doing everybody else with everybody else doing everybody else with everybody else doing everybody else is standing around unless they're is standing around unless they're is standing around unless they're helping while they're standing around helping while they're standing around helping while they're standing around they're not paddling they're not they're not paddling they're not they're not paddling they're not producing heat and so you know it's producing heat and so you know it's producing heat and so you know it's you can get into a situation where the you can get into a situation where the you can get into a situation where the entire scenario goes into a downward entire scenario goes into a downward entire scenario goes into a downward spiral because you don't have enough spiral because you don't have enough spiral because you don't have enough gear to protect the whole group you gear to protect the whole group you gear to protect the whole group you don't have enough gear to rewarm the don't have enough gear to rewarm the don't have enough gear to rewarm the person it's it's a mess well um person it's it's a mess well um person it's it's a mess well um my seek hiking coach is up in uh San my seek hiking coach is up in uh San my seek hiking coach is up in uh San Juan Islands they would go through these Juan Islands they would go through these Juan Islands they would go through these exercises on treating people for exercises on treating people for exercises on treating people for hypothermia yeah so they would pull up hypothermia yeah so they would pull up hypothermia yeah so they would pull up on a beach on a beach on a beach and this was out on the coast and they
1:14and this was out on the coast and they and this was out on the coast and they would say this is a snap quiz or a test would say this is a snap quiz or a test would say this is a snap quiz or a test let's say your your paddle is your let's say your your paddle is your let's say your your paddle is your hypothermic partner and now you need to hypothermic partner and now you need to hypothermic partner and now you need to treat them for hypothermia so what do treat them for hypothermia so what do treat them for hypothermia so what do you do you do you do so everybody would get the action they so everybody would get the action they so everybody would get the action they would get out their sleeping bag and would get out their sleeping bag and would get out their sleeping bag and they would you know take off the wet they would you know take off the wet they would you know take off the wet clothes and put their their paddle in clothes and put their their paddle in clothes and put their their paddle in the sleeping bag and with with extra the sleeping bag and with with extra the sleeping bag and with with extra warm clothes and uh while they would do warm clothes and uh while they would do warm clothes and uh while they would do this this this all of a sudden a wave would show would all of a sudden a wave would show would all of a sudden a wave would show would crash on the shore and get everybody wet crash on the shore and get everybody wet crash on the shore and get everybody wet because they forgot to uh move them off because they forgot to uh move them off because they forgot to uh move them off of the beach well you know that's a of the beach well you know that's a of the beach well you know that's a that's a good scenario and it's uh that's a good scenario and it's uh that's a good scenario and it's uh it's realistic it's realistic it's realistic because you know we're used to having an because you know we're used to having an because you know we're used to having an environment where we're pretty much in environment where we're pretty much in environment where we're pretty much in control control control and Wilderness is not that environment and Wilderness is not that environment and Wilderness is not that environment in Wilderness really does and and I in Wilderness really does and and I in Wilderness really does and and I would carry you know you might say well would carry you know you might say well would carry you know you might say well the beach isn't necessarily Wilton as the beach isn't necessarily Wilton as the beach isn't necessarily Wilton as well it could be or it couldn't be but well it could be or it couldn't be but
1:15well it could be or it couldn't be but the fact is if you don't have a house the fact is if you don't have a house the fact is if you don't have a house that you can run to that you can run to that you can run to to get shelter might as well be to get shelter might as well be to get shelter might as well be those kind of exercises I think are those kind of exercises I think are those kind of exercises I think are really good and they inject reality into really good and they inject reality into really good and they inject reality into it but I think it also it but I think it also it but I think it also demonstrates that demonstrates that demonstrates that if the person that's paddling with you if the person that's paddling with you if the person that's paddling with you is hypothermic when they get to the is hypothermic when they get to the is hypothermic when they get to the beach beach beach mistakes have been made mistakes have been made mistakes have been made big mistakes big mistakes big mistakes not to to nip that in the bud when they not to to nip that in the bud when they not to to nip that in the bud when they were simply cold were simply cold were simply cold when they started to shiver when they started to shiver when they started to shiver when they continued the shower these are when they continued the shower these are when they continued the shower these are these are all these are all these are all preventable mistakes and so that's I preventable mistakes and so that's I preventable mistakes and so that's I think the role of education is to say think the role of education is to say think the role of education is to say hey everybody hands and feet everybody's hey everybody hands and feet everybody's hey everybody hands and feet everybody's hands and feet warm hands and feet warm key question I ask it a lot key question I ask it a lot key question I ask it a lot because it's my it's my way of gauging because it's my it's my way of gauging because it's my it's my way of gauging you know whether or not everybody's you know whether or not everybody's you know whether or not everybody's comfortable and again that's kind of comfortable and again that's kind of comfortable and again that's kind of back to back to back to my Mantra of wilderness education which
1:16my Mantra of wilderness education which my Mantra of wilderness education which is safety and comfort is safety and comfort is safety and comfort what about the idea of getting the what about the idea of getting the what about the idea of getting the sleeping bag with a hypothermic person sleeping bag with a hypothermic person sleeping bag with a hypothermic person with your clothes off with your clothes off with your clothes off well I think it's a it's an amusing idea well I think it's a it's an amusing idea well I think it's a it's an amusing idea but you know I'll tell you what we've but you know I'll tell you what we've but you know I'll tell you what we've tried it okay yeah I was wondering tried it okay yeah I was wondering tried it okay yeah I was wondering because I I heard there's a risk of because I I heard there's a risk of because I I heard there's a risk of getting hypothermic well if you have getting hypothermic well if you have getting hypothermic well if you have let's say you have let's say you have let's say you have even with two mummy bags that you can even with two mummy bags that you can even with two mummy bags that you can zip together because they're designed zip together because they're designed zip together because they're designed for that for that for that it's still going to be difficult it's still going to be difficult it's still going to be difficult I mean if you picture it what is the I mean if you picture it what is the I mean if you picture it what is the scenario scenario scenario are they inside a tent you know are they are they inside a tent you know are they are they inside a tent you know are they out on the ground do you have insulating out on the ground do you have insulating out on the ground do you have insulating pads underneath what's the weather like pads underneath what's the weather like pads underneath what's the weather like my feeling is that if you're going to go my feeling is that if you're going to go my feeling is that if you're going to go down the sleeping bag route down the sleeping bag route down the sleeping bag route then then then putting a person in the sleeping bag putting a person in the sleeping bag putting a person in the sleeping bag naked no you know get them out of their naked no you know get them out of their naked no you know get them out of their wet clothes get them into dry clothes as wet clothes get them into dry clothes as wet clothes get them into dry clothes as fast as you can put them in a dry
1:17fast as you can put them in a dry fast as you can put them in a dry sleeping bag and if you can sleeping bag and if you can sleeping bag and if you can crank up your little stove make sure crank up your little stove make sure crank up your little stove make sure there's an insulating pan underneath there's an insulating pan underneath there's an insulating pan underneath them if there's any way you can help to them if there's any way you can help to them if there's any way you can help to Shield them from the wind or something Shield them from the wind or something Shield them from the wind or something if you've got a baby sack you can put if you've got a baby sack you can put if you've got a baby sack you can put over the bag that's good but then you over the bag that's good but then you over the bag that's good but then you know you you crank up the little stove know you you crank up the little stove know you you crank up the little stove and you make yourself some hot water put and you make yourself some hot water put and you make yourself some hot water put it in water bottles to make sure that it in water bottles to make sure that it in water bottles to make sure that damn Lids are cranked on tight put them damn Lids are cranked on tight put them damn Lids are cranked on tight put them down into socks down into socks down into socks some spare socks and then stick them some spare socks and then stick them some spare socks and then stick them down in the sleeping bag okay good down in the sleeping bag okay good down in the sleeping bag okay good places for that would be the sides of places for that would be the sides of places for that would be the sides of the chest like you know right there the chest like you know right there the chest like you know right there nestled under their arms or the groin nestled under their arms or the groin nestled under their arms or the groin area because there's a lot of blood area because there's a lot of blood area because there's a lot of blood vessels very close to the surface there vessels very close to the surface there vessels very close to the surface there so you can help to warm them up if the so you can help to warm them up if the so you can help to warm them up if the temperature is below freezing I think temperature is below freezing I think temperature is below freezing I think you know you have to worry about you know you have to worry about you know you have to worry about somebody in a sleeping bag getting somebody in a sleeping bag getting somebody in a sleeping bag getting frostbite frostbite frostbite just because in a hypothermia situation just because in a hypothermia situation just because in a hypothermia situation if you think back and you say well the if you think back and you say well the if you think back and you say well the circulation to the feet has been reduced circulation to the feet has been reduced circulation to the feet has been reduced it is possible for your toes to start to it is possible for your toes to start to it is possible for your toes to start to freeze if they're not warm enough
1:18freeze if they're not warm enough freeze if they're not warm enough depending on the outdoor environment the depending on the outdoor environment the depending on the outdoor environment the size of this sleeping bag size of this sleeping bag size of this sleeping bag I prefer that method to this two person I prefer that method to this two person I prefer that method to this two person in the bag thing because first of all in the bag thing because first of all in the bag thing because first of all it's not going to happen at regulars I it's not going to happen at regulars I it's not going to happen at regulars I mean a regular sleeping bag mean a regular sleeping bag mean a regular sleeping bag you know like one of these Camping you know like one of these Camping you know like one of these Camping sleeping bags it's just a rectangle with sleeping bags it's just a rectangle with sleeping bags it's just a rectangle with a big opening at the top LG West you a big opening at the top LG West you a big opening at the top LG West you want as little movement in there as want as little movement in there as want as little movement in there as possible possible possible because it flushes the heat in and out because it flushes the heat in and out because it flushes the heat in and out so so yeah and a mummy bag you're not getting yeah and a mummy bag you're not getting yeah and a mummy bag you're not getting two people in the money bag and getting two people in the money bag and getting two people in the money bag and getting the things that close so it's not the things that close so it's not the things that close so it's not practical and and why are they naked you practical and and why are they naked you practical and and why are they naked you know I don't know know I don't know know I don't know it's just well because the skin the skin it's just well because the skin the skin it's just well because the skin the skin contact is gonna you know know contact is gonna you know know contact is gonna you know know because this is like oh okay it's going because this is like oh okay it's going because this is like oh okay it's going to promote heat transfer yeah uh you to promote heat transfer yeah uh you to promote heat transfer yeah uh you know what I'm looking at is I think it's know what I'm looking at is I think it's know what I'm looking at is I think it's going to expose both people to an going to expose both people to an going to expose both people to an environment which they both have now environment which they both have now environment which they both have now have trouble keeping warm yeah have trouble keeping warm yeah have trouble keeping warm yeah so I wouldn't advise it this is my point
1:19so I wouldn't advise it this is my point so I wouldn't advise it this is my point I guess well it makes for some amusing I guess well it makes for some amusing I guess well it makes for some amusing um campfire conversations it's been the butt of many a joke but it's been the butt of many a joke but you know we tend to make jokes about you know we tend to make jokes about you know we tend to make jokes about things that are horrific in order to to things that are horrific in order to to things that are horrific in order to to cope with them psychologically I think cope with them psychologically I think cope with them psychologically I think so yeah you know that's where some of so yeah you know that's where some of so yeah you know that's where some of that comes from it's not not that comes from it's not not that comes from it's not not mean-spirited you know it's just that mean-spirited you know it's just that mean-spirited you know it's just that people in search and rescue are people in search and rescue are people in search and rescue are notorious for the occasional morbid joke notorious for the occasional morbid joke notorious for the occasional morbid joke just because their job and body just because their job and body just because their job and body recoveries is so horrendous yeah you see recoveries is so horrendous yeah you see recoveries is so horrendous yeah you see that a lot in in the medical field as that a lot in in the medical field as that a lot in in the medical field as well yeah it's not that they're mean well yeah it's not that they're mean well yeah it's not that they're mean it's not that they don't care it's just it's not that they don't care it's just it's not that they don't care it's just that they have to have some way to cope that they have to have some way to cope that they have to have some way to cope with it psychologically and that humor with it psychologically and that humor with it psychologically and that humor tends to be a diffuser of that that sort tends to be a diffuser of that that sort tends to be a diffuser of that that sort of tension of tension of tension yep yep yep okay well um okay well um okay well um lastly you want to talk about the lastly you want to talk about the lastly you want to talk about the national Center for cold water safety
1:20national Center for cold water safety national Center for cold water safety and your mission to spread the word on and your mission to spread the word on and your mission to spread the word on cold water safety sure I'd love to love cold water safety sure I'd love to love cold water safety sure I'd love to love to well first I'd say um we're a to well first I'd say um we're a to well first I'd say um we're a non-profit organization and we don't non-profit organization and we don't non-profit organization and we don't accept advertising accept advertising accept advertising if you go to the website it's free you if you go to the website it's free you if you go to the website it's free you don't have to register don't have to register don't have to register we don't ask for your email address we we don't ask for your email address we we don't ask for your email address we don't have cookies because we want a don't have cookies because we want a don't have cookies because we want a seamless experience if you go and look seamless experience if you go and look seamless experience if you go and look at one of our videos you'll find it's at one of our videos you'll find it's at one of our videos you'll find it's perched on Vimeo and we don't use perched on Vimeo and we don't use perched on Vimeo and we don't use YouTube because we don't like ads we YouTube because we don't like ads we YouTube because we don't like ads we don't like somebody serving up an ad for don't like somebody serving up an ad for don't like somebody serving up an ad for I don't know whatever Skittles I don't know whatever Skittles I don't know whatever Skittles candy bars you know right in the middle candy bars you know right in the middle candy bars you know right in the middle of what we think is a life death of what we think is a life death of what we think is a life death subject so subject so subject so the center is 11 years old and the center is 11 years old and the center is 11 years old and like I say with a new website I think like I say with a new website I think like I say with a new website I think it's very robust and I think we've gone it's very robust and I think we've gone it's very robust and I think we've gone from a point where there was no good from a point where there was no good from a point where there was no good resource on the internet on this subject
1:21resource on the internet on this subject resource on the internet on this subject there was really nothing there was really nothing there was really nothing that was worth two cents we've gone from that was worth two cents we've gone from that was worth two cents we've gone from that to the point where we're and that to the point where we're and that to the point where we're and internationally respected source of internationally respected source of internationally respected source of information information information that people can rely on and that people can rely on and that people can rely on and that they can go to to learn about this that they can go to to learn about this that they can go to to learn about this and it's very practical and it's very practical and it's very practical so I'm I'm real happy with that so I'm I'm real happy with that so I'm I'm real happy with that I think you know it's uh it's a I think you know it's uh it's a I think you know it's uh it's a testimony to to all the good people who testimony to to all the good people who testimony to to all the good people who who helped to uh to get this off the who helped to uh to get this off the who helped to uh to get this off the ground in the beginning ground in the beginning ground in the beginning and who have kept it going and who and who have kept it going and who and who have kept it going and who continue to spread the message so continue to spread the message so continue to spread the message so there's a story on the website I won't there's a story on the website I won't there's a story on the website I won't get into it in great detail but it's uh get into it in great detail but it's uh get into it in great detail but it's uh sort of like sort of like sort of like why did you decide to start the center why did you decide to start the center why did you decide to start the center you know I'd been running point on the you know I'd been running point on the you know I'd been running point on the issue for quite some time but you know issue for quite some time but you know issue for quite some time but you know as I say it took some time off to raise as I say it took some time off to raise as I say it took some time off to raise my daughters and came back into it and my daughters and came back into it and my daughters and came back into it and there was an incident in Casco Bay on
1:22there was an incident in Casco Bay on there was an incident in Casco Bay on the coast of Maine two young women just the coast of Maine two young women just the coast of Maine two young women just about the same age when they died as my about the same age when they died as my about the same age when they died as my daughters daughters daughters and they got blown offshore and they got blown offshore and they got blown offshore and capsized and they died and capsized and they died and capsized and they died and that incident just shook me like and that incident just shook me like and that incident just shook me like ragdoll ragdoll ragdoll perhaps some of it had to do with the perhaps some of it had to do with the perhaps some of it had to do with the fact that they were the roughly the same fact that they were the roughly the same fact that they were the roughly the same age as my daughters but it was just a age as my daughters but it was just a age as my daughters but it was just a horrific horrific horrific situation and I thought situation and I thought situation and I thought can I walk away from this knowing what I can I walk away from this knowing what I can I walk away from this knowing what I know you know given my past involvement know you know given my past involvement know you know given my past involvement with the subject and so forth and I with the subject and so forth and I with the subject and so forth and I didn't think I could didn't think I could didn't think I could and so I decided Well and so I decided Well and so I decided Well I do know something about how to start I do know something about how to start I do know something about how to start an organization and an organization and an organization and you know we've got this internet you you know we've got this internet you you know we've got this internet you know and I think we can do something know and I think we can do something know and I think we can do something here so I made that decision and uh here here so I made that decision and uh here here so I made that decision and uh here we are 11 years later we are 11 years later we are 11 years later it's a good incident in its own height
1:23it's a good incident in its own height it's a good incident in its own height uh it's worth uh it's worth uh it's worth it's worth reading but it also uh you it's worth reading but it also uh you it's worth reading but it also uh you know if anybody's interested in know if anybody's interested in know if anybody's interested in how an event can change the course or how an event can change the course or how an event can change the course or trajectory it sounds like his life trajectory it sounds like his life trajectory it sounds like his life that's a pretty good example that's a pretty good example that's a pretty good example I wasn't planning on it but you know I wasn't planning on it but you know I wasn't planning on it but you know after that happened I went online and I after that happened I went online and I after that happened I went online and I looked around and I said what kind of looked around and I said what kind of looked around and I said what kind of information is out there and it was information is out there and it was information is out there and it was a surprise to me that there was nothing a surprise to me that there was nothing a surprise to me that there was nothing that was accurate nothing that was that that was accurate nothing that was that that was accurate nothing that was that was good nothing that really put this was good nothing that really put this was good nothing that really put this whole thing about Cold Shot together and whole thing about Cold Shot together and whole thing about Cold Shot together and tied it tied it to it it was Egypt it's tied it tied it to it it was Egypt it's tied it tied it to it it was Egypt it's just nothing at all and I just just nothing at all and I just just nothing at all and I just I thought well I'm gonna change that in my usual exuberant way you know not in my usual exuberant way you know not and I think it's a blessing sometimes and I think it's a blessing sometimes and I think it's a blessing sometimes that you don't really that you don't really that you don't really Envision you know when you've got fire Envision you know when you've got fire Envision you know when you've got fire in the belly and you're getting ready to in the belly and you're getting ready to in the belly and you're getting ready to start something new you know you don't start something new you know you don't start something new you know you don't you're kind of underestimate the hurdles
1:24you're kind of underestimate the hurdles you're kind of underestimate the hurdles yeah yeah yeah I sure as hell did I sure as hell did I sure as hell did but but you know again uh there was a whole you know again uh there was a whole you know again uh there was a whole group of people group of people group of people um um and and it was uh a lot of them with the and and it was uh a lot of them with the and and it was uh a lot of them with the Chesapeake paddlers Association and one Chesapeake paddlers Association and one Chesapeake paddlers Association and one of their uh satellite clubs that helped of their uh satellite clubs that helped of their uh satellite clubs that helped and were really instrumental in in and were really instrumental in in and were really instrumental in in helping me to get this going because boy helping me to get this going because boy helping me to get this going because boy it was uh it wasn't easy to start up it was uh it wasn't easy to start up it was uh it wasn't easy to start up I have a quote in there by Eric Soares I have a quote in there by Eric Soares I have a quote in there by Eric Soares because I was in touch with him during because I was in touch with him during because I was in touch with him during that period Eric sores of the tsunami that period Eric sores of the tsunami that period Eric sores of the tsunami Rangers yeah co-founder of the tsunami Rangers yeah co-founder of the tsunami Rangers yeah co-founder of the tsunami Rangers and he was a very strong Rangers and he was a very strong Rangers and he was a very strong supporter of supporter of supporter of cold water safety in fact cold water safety in fact cold water safety in fact when I wrote the article in 1991 uh that when I wrote the article in 1991 uh that when I wrote the article in 1991 uh that Chris Cunningham published in Sea Chris Cunningham published in Sea Chris Cunningham published in Sea kayaker which was called colchuck kayaker which was called colchuck kayaker which was called colchuck the next issue every letter to the the next issue every letter to the the next issue every letter to the editor was against it editor was against it editor was against it wow said that I was you know hyping I
1:25wow said that I was you know hyping I wow said that I was you know hyping I was a fear-mongering and it was was a fear-mongering and it was was a fear-mongering and it was unnecessary and just don't capsize and unnecessary and just don't capsize and unnecessary and just don't capsize and stuff Eric Soares was the Lone exception stuff Eric Soares was the Lone exception stuff Eric Soares was the Lone exception to that sorry chorus and to that sorry chorus and to that sorry chorus and he was in his prime and he was a guy who he was in his prime and he was a guy who he was in his prime and he was a guy who was really not to be trifled with you was really not to be trifled with you was really not to be trifled with you know you couldn't say of Eric Soares oh know you couldn't say of Eric Soares oh know you couldn't say of Eric Soares oh he doesn't know what he's talking about he doesn't know what he's talking about he doesn't know what he's talking about now you couldn't say that as a sea now you couldn't say that as a sea now you couldn't say that as a sea kayaker without getting laughed out of kayaker without getting laughed out of kayaker without getting laughed out of the room the room the room and he wrote a letter that said very and he wrote a letter that said very and he wrote a letter that said very supportive letter but that said supportive letter but that said supportive letter but that said something to the effect that something to the effect that something to the effect that the article should be either taped or the article should be either taped or the article should be either taped or stapled to the forehead of every sea stapled to the forehead of every sea stapled to the forehead of every sea character I can't remember if it was character I can't remember if it was character I can't remember if it was taped to stay before one or the other taped to stay before one or the other taped to stay before one or the other and so and so and so you know I was I was really grateful to you know I was I was really grateful to you know I was I was really grateful to him for that because he had the gravitas him for that because he had the gravitas him for that because he had the gravitas to make people sit up and listen to make people sit up and listen to make people sit up and listen and he said it was important and it was and he said it was important and it was and he said it was important and it was and so I have a quote from him on the um
1:26and so I have a quote from him on the um and so I have a quote from him on the um one that he said shortly before he had one that he said shortly before he had one that he said shortly before he had that final well that aortic aneurysm that final well that aortic aneurysm that final well that aortic aneurysm killed him killed him killed him far too young he said Moulton if you far too young he said Moulton if you far too young he said Moulton if you just get the ball rolling good people just get the ball rolling good people just get the ball rolling good people will come out of the woodwork as if by will come out of the woodwork as if by will come out of the woodwork as if by Magic to help make your dream come true Magic to help make your dream come true Magic to help make your dream come true and he was right and and he was right and and he was right and you know I carry that I've carried that you know I carry that I've carried that you know I carry that I've carried that message in my heart for a long time now message in my heart for a long time now message in my heart for a long time now he was a he was a great guy and it just he was a he was a great guy and it just he was a he was a great guy and it just reaffirms my my faith that there are reaffirms my my faith that there are reaffirms my my faith that there are people out in the kayaking Community who people out in the kayaking Community who people out in the kayaking Community who really do care who were thoughtful really do care who were thoughtful really do care who were thoughtful intelligent and and they intelligent and and they intelligent and and they you know they read the science and they you know they read the science and they you know they read the science and they help to pass the message along help to pass the message along help to pass the message along and I think people that are at the top and I think people that are at the top and I think people that are at the top about this sport I think have an about this sport I think have an about this sport I think have an obligation to lead by example obligation to lead by example obligation to lead by example and I think that's also true of anybody
1:27and I think that's also true of anybody and I think that's also true of anybody that manufactures equipment that manufactures equipment that manufactures equipment you know they have an obligation not to you know they have an obligation not to you know they have an obligation not to undermine cold water safety which they undermine cold water safety which they undermine cold water safety which they frequently do frequently do frequently do um through pictures with people paddling um through pictures with people paddling um through pictures with people paddling in high school water with no protection in high school water with no protection in high school water with no protection and I think the same is true of and I think the same is true of and I think the same is true of publishing houses publishing houses publishing houses rapid media comes to mind rapid media comes to mind rapid media comes to mind they've done an awful job over the last they've done an awful job over the last they've done an awful job over the last 10 years 10 years 10 years you know they've just constantly you know they've just constantly you know they've just constantly articles you know articles you know articles you know seven most important things for winter seven most important things for winter seven most important things for winter paddling they don't mention paddling they don't mention paddling they don't mention dry suits you know I mean how is that dry suits you know I mean how is that dry suits you know I mean how is that how is that even possible how is that even possible how is that even possible so yeah you know these are the things I so yeah you know these are the things I so yeah you know these are the things I think think think we have people who are influencers are we have people who are influencers are we have people who are influencers are popular new term uh in our sport popular new term uh in our sport popular new term uh in our sport we pretty much can figure out who they we pretty much can figure out who they we pretty much can figure out who they are are are and they have an obligation to do that and they have an obligation to do that and they have an obligation to do that I was incidentally kicked off of the uh
1:28I was incidentally kicked off of the uh I was incidentally kicked off of the uh church with a double-bladed paddle after church with a double-bladed paddle after church with a double-bladed paddle after eight years of participating wow because eight years of participating wow because eight years of participating wow because I went a little too far I went a little too far I went a little too far to suit the admins on recommending that to suit the admins on recommending that to suit the admins on recommending that they don't uh allow they don't uh allow they don't uh allow photos of people paddling in cold water photos of people paddling in cold water photos of people paddling in cold water without pfds that was the last straw for without pfds that was the last straw for without pfds that was the last straw for them them oh wow got a letter well we've been oh wow got a letter well we've been oh wow got a letter well we've been patient with you patient with you patient with you that's the Facebook group that's the Facebook group that's the Facebook group yeah the Facebook group and they have yeah the Facebook group and they have yeah the Facebook group and they have you know Thirty that twenty thousand you know Thirty that twenty thousand you know Thirty that twenty thousand thirty thousand members or something thirty thousand members or something thirty thousand members or something but they have a history of kicking off but they have a history of kicking off but they have a history of kicking off safety Advocates I somehow thought you safety Advocates I somehow thought you safety Advocates I somehow thought you know because of what I was doing you know because of what I was doing you know because of what I was doing you know that I was somehow immune you know know that I was somehow immune you know know that I was somehow immune you know that's sort of like an invisibility that's sort of like an invisibility that's sort of like an invisibility cloak or some sort of protective gear cloak or some sort of protective gear cloak or some sort of protective gear you know no boot boot right off wow you know no boot boot right off wow you know no boot boot right off wow you know this is this is the thing you know this is this is the thing you know this is this is the thing if you don't support safety what does if you don't support safety what does if you don't support safety what does that say about you paddling is a that say about you paddling is a
1:29that say about you paddling is a wonderful sport wonderful sport wonderful sport but it has a very but it has a very but it has a very sharp and unforgiving Edge sharp and unforgiving Edge sharp and unforgiving Edge when things go south when things go south when things go south so so there is a role for safety and I think there is a role for safety and I think there is a role for safety and I think we have a long tradition a proud we have a long tradition a proud we have a long tradition a proud tradition and paddle Sports of helping tradition and paddle Sports of helping tradition and paddle Sports of helping to educate our fellow paddlers to educate our fellow paddlers to educate our fellow paddlers and some of these admins on these and some of these admins on these and some of these admins on these Facebook groups they have no Facebook groups they have no Facebook groups they have no understanding of that whatsoever you understanding of that whatsoever you understanding of that whatsoever you don't have to have any qualifications to don't have to have any qualifications to don't have to have any qualifications to start a Facebook group at all start a Facebook group at all start a Facebook group at all you know that's a criticism that I have you know that's a criticism that I have you know that's a criticism that I have about them because I think that with about them because I think that with about them because I think that with influence should come responsibility influence should come responsibility influence should come responsibility you know not just to go out and sing you know not just to go out and sing you know not just to go out and sing Kumbaya and say what a wonderful sport Kumbaya and say what a wonderful sport Kumbaya and say what a wonderful sport it is it is a wonderful sport it is it is a wonderful sport it is it is a wonderful sport but it's not a wonderful sport if your but it's not a wonderful sport if your but it's not a wonderful sport if your husband or your best friend or somebody husband or your best friend or somebody husband or your best friend or somebody in your your group gets killed because in your your group gets killed because in your your group gets killed because of a a mistake that was preventable
1:30of a a mistake that was preventable of a a mistake that was preventable avoidable avoidable avoidable a lot of these people never get the word a lot of these people never get the word a lot of these people never get the word this is one reason I fault the this is one reason I fault the this is one reason I fault the influences I think they have an influences I think they have an influences I think they have an obligation to help spread the word obligation to help spread the word obligation to help spread the word it's not a Kumbaya subject but life is it's not a Kumbaya subject but life is it's not a Kumbaya subject but life is like that life is a balance of like that life is a balance of like that life is a balance of good and bad good and bad good and bad safe and unsafe whatever safe and unsafe whatever safe and unsafe whatever and I think it's best approached with and I think it's best approached with and I think it's best approached with eyes wide open and if you have no idea eyes wide open and if you have no idea eyes wide open and if you have no idea that there's a danger how can you that there's a danger how can you that there's a danger how can you protect yourself against it protect yourself against it protect yourself against it you can Andrew it's been such a pleasure Andrew it's been such a pleasure chatting with you it really has chatting with you it really has chatting with you it really has thank you so much well thank you thanks thank you so much well thank you thanks thank you so much well thank you thanks so much for being on the dub cast and so much for being on the dub cast and so much for being on the dub cast and thanks for your contributions to the thanks for your contributions to the thanks for your contributions to the sport sport sport and for our listeners I highly recommend and for our listeners I highly recommend and for our listeners I highly recommend Bolton's website Bolton's website Bolton's website coldwatersafety.org it's an amazing coldwatersafety.org it's an amazing coldwatersafety.org it's an amazing resource really eye-opening case
1:31resource really eye-opening case resource really eye-opening case histories to go through histories to go through histories to go through [Music]