Dr Susanna S berg How to Use Cold Heat Exposure to Improve Your Health Huberman
00:00[Music] [Music] welcome to the huberman Lab podcast welcome to the huberman Lab podcast welcome to the huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and where we discuss science and where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine Stanford School of Medicine Stanford School of Medicine today my guest is Dr Susanna soberg Dr today my guest is Dr Susanna soberg Dr today my guest is Dr Susanna soberg Dr Suzanna soberg completed her doctoral Suzanna soberg completed her doctoral Suzanna soberg completed her doctoral thesis work at the center of thesis work at the center of thesis work at the center of inflammation and metabolism and the inflammation and metabolism and the inflammation and metabolism and the center for physical activity research at center for physical activity research at center for physical activity research at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark the University of Copenhagen in Denmark the University of Copenhagen in Denmark her research has focused on how her research has focused on how her research has focused on how deliberate cold exposure and deliberate deliberate cold exposure and deliberate deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure can be used to enhance heat exposure can be used to enhance heat exposure can be used to enhance human metabolism she is the first author human metabolism she is the first author human metabolism she is the first author of a seminal study which discovered the of a seminal study which discovered the of a seminal study which discovered the minimum thresholds for deliberate heat minimum thresholds for deliberate heat minimum thresholds for deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure for and deliberate cold exposure for and deliberate cold exposure for increasing Brown fat thermogenesis which increasing Brown fat thermogenesis which increasing Brown fat thermogenesis which is essentially a mode of increasing heat is essentially a mode of increasing heat is essentially a mode of increasing heat production and Metabolism in the body production and Metabolism in the body production and Metabolism in the body and for establishing actionable and for establishing actionable and for establishing actionable protocols that can be used outside of protocols that can be used outside of protocols that can be used outside of the laboratory to improve metabolism and the laboratory to improve metabolism and the laboratory to improve metabolism and human health Dr sober's research was human health Dr sober's research was human health Dr sober's research was published in the journal cell reports
01:00published in the journal cell reports published in the journal cell reports metabolism in 2021 adding to a long and metabolism in 2021 adding to a long and metabolism in 2021 adding to a long and important history of research focusing important history of research focusing important history of research focusing on the role of cold and the role of heat on the role of cold and the role of heat on the role of cold and the role of heat in altering various aspects of the in altering various aspects of the in altering various aspects of the body's physiology including Hormone body's physiology including Hormone body's physiology including Hormone Health metabolism and changes in Health metabolism and changes in Health metabolism and changes in neurotransmitters such as dopamine and neurotransmitters such as dopamine and neurotransmitters such as dopamine and epinephrine in fact today's discussion epinephrine in fact today's discussion epinephrine in fact today's discussion with Dr soberg focuses on the role of with Dr soberg focuses on the role of with Dr soberg focuses on the role of deliberate heat and deliberate cold deliberate heat and deliberate cold deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure on metabolism but it also exposure on metabolism but it also exposure on metabolism but it also includes discussion of the effects of includes discussion of the effects of includes discussion of the effects of cold and heat on things like cold and heat on things like cold and heat on things like neurotransmitter production namely neurotransmitter production namely neurotransmitter production namely dopamine and epinephrine and dopamine and epinephrine and dopamine and epinephrine and norepinephrine the so-called norepinephrine the so-called norepinephrine the so-called catecholamines which strongly impact catecholamines which strongly impact catecholamines which strongly impact mood and Metabolism in addition Dr mood and Metabolism in addition Dr mood and Metabolism in addition Dr soberg answers many common questions soberg answers many common questions soberg answers many common questions about deliberate cold and deliberate about deliberate cold and deliberate about deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure including for instance the heat exposure including for instance the heat exposure including for instance the difference between cold showers versus difference between cold showers versus difference between cold showers versus cold immersion up to the neck versus cold immersion up to the neck versus cold immersion up to the neck versus total body cold immersion including total body cold immersion including total body cold immersion including whether or not going back and forth whether or not going back and forth whether or not going back and forth between heat and cold changes between heat and cold changes between heat and cold changes fundamentally the way that heat and cold fundamentally the way that heat and cold fundamentally the way that heat and cold impact the metabolism hormones and impact the metabolism hormones and impact the metabolism hormones and neurotransmitter production and we talk
02:00neurotransmitter production and we talk neurotransmitter production and we talk about almost every single nuance and about almost every single nuance and about almost every single nuance and variation on deliberate cold and variation on deliberate cold and variation on deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure protocols as it deliberate heat exposure protocols as it deliberate heat exposure protocols as it relates to the underlying science in relates to the underlying science in relates to the underlying science in particular how cold receptors at the particular how cold receptors at the particular how cold receptors at the level of the skin are impacted versus level of the skin are impacted versus level of the skin are impacted versus cold reception and perception at the cold reception and perception at the cold reception and perception at the level of the brain and how all of that level of the brain and how all of that level of the brain and how all of that impacts systems of the brain and body impacts systems of the brain and body impacts systems of the brain and body relating to mental health physical relating to mental health physical relating to mental health physical health and Performance Based on her health and Performance Based on her health and Performance Based on her scientific research and academic scientific research and academic scientific research and academic training as well as her understanding training as well as her understanding training as well as her understanding and use of deliberate heat and and use of deliberate heat and and use of deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure protocols Dr deliberate cold exposure protocols Dr deliberate cold exposure protocols Dr soberg is considered one of the world's soberg is considered one of the world's soberg is considered one of the world's leading experts on these topics in fact leading experts on these topics in fact leading experts on these topics in fact she is the author of a recent book she is the author of a recent book she is the author of a recent book entitled winter swimming which is I have entitled winter swimming which is I have entitled winter swimming which is I have to say a terrific book because it breaks to say a terrific book because it breaks to say a terrific book because it breaks down chapter by chapter the different down chapter by chapter the different down chapter by chapter the different aspects of deliberate heat and aspects of deliberate heat and aspects of deliberate heat and deliberate cold into its various deliberate cold into its various deliberate cold into its various constituent Parts including cold constituent Parts including cold constituent Parts including cold acclimation the cold shock response acclimation the cold shock response acclimation the cold shock response dangers and safeties of cold water dangers and safeties of cold water dangers and safeties of cold water the impact of cold and impact of heat on the impact of cold and impact of heat on the impact of cold and impact of heat on various aspects of human health as well
03:00various aspects of human health as well various aspects of human health as well as specifics relating to sauna versus as specifics relating to sauna versus as specifics relating to sauna versus Ice versus cold swimming showers Etc Ice versus cold swimming showers Etc Ice versus cold swimming showers Etc it's a very thorough read and a very it's a very thorough read and a very it's a very thorough read and a very easy and accessible read that if you are easy and accessible read that if you are easy and accessible read that if you are interested in deliberate cold or interested in deliberate cold or interested in deliberate cold or deliberate heat exposure or both will deliberate heat exposure or both will deliberate heat exposure or both will allow you to embrace those protocols allow you to embrace those protocols allow you to embrace those protocols with the greatest degree of confidence with the greatest degree of confidence with the greatest degree of confidence that you're going to obtain the specific that you're going to obtain the specific that you're going to obtain the specific endpoints that you're interested in and endpoints that you're interested in and endpoints that you're interested in and to do so safely before we begin I'd like to do so safely before we begin I'd like to do so safely before we begin I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is to emphasize that this podcast is to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research separate from my teaching and research separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford it is however part of roles at Stanford it is however part of roles at Stanford it is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost my desire and effort to bring zero cost my desire and effort to bring zero cost to Consumer information about science to Consumer information about science to Consumer information about science and science related tools to the general and science related tools to the general and science related tools to the general public in keeping with that theme I'd public in keeping with that theme I'd public in keeping with that theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's like to thank the sponsors of today's like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast our first sponsor is Plunge podcast our first sponsor is Plunge podcast our first sponsor is Plunge plunge makes what I believe is the most plunge makes what I believe is the most plunge makes what I believe is the most versatile at-home self-cooling cold versatile at-home self-cooling cold versatile at-home self-cooling cold plunge for deliberate cold exposure plunge for deliberate cold exposure plunge for deliberate cold exposure I've talked numerous times on this I've talked numerous times on this I've talked numerous times on this podcast about the many benefits of podcast about the many benefits of podcast about the many benefits of deliberate cold exposure and indeed deliberate cold exposure and indeed deliberate cold exposure and indeed today's episode is focused entirely on today's episode is focused entirely on today's episode is focused entirely on the benefits and the science of the benefits and the science of the benefits and the science of deliberate cold exposure plunge uses a
04:00deliberate cold exposure plunge uses a deliberate cold exposure plunge uses a powerful cooling filtration and powerful cooling filtration and powerful cooling filtration and sanitation unit to give you access to sanitation unit to give you access to sanitation unit to give you access to deliberate cold exposure in clean water deliberate cold exposure in clean water deliberate cold exposure in clean water whenever you want as we will discuss whenever you want as we will discuss whenever you want as we will discuss during today's episode with Dr Susanna during today's episode with Dr Susanna during today's episode with Dr Susanna soberg deliberate cold exposure soberg deliberate cold exposure soberg deliberate cold exposure especially deliberate cold exposure done especially deliberate cold exposure done especially deliberate cold exposure done up to the neck in water can be used to up to the neck in water can be used to up to the neck in water can be used to achieve a number of important endpoints achieve a number of important endpoints achieve a number of important endpoints related to mental health physical health related to mental health physical health related to mental health physical health and performance I've been using a plunge and performance I've been using a plunge and performance I've been using a plunge for more than two years now I can tell for more than two years now I can tell for more than two years now I can tell you that it makes it very easy to get you that it makes it very easy to get you that it makes it very easy to get your deliberate cold exposure at home it your deliberate cold exposure at home it your deliberate cold exposure at home it doesn't require much cleaning in fact doesn't require much cleaning in fact doesn't require much cleaning in fact it's very easy to keep clean which is it's very easy to keep clean which is it's very easy to keep clean which is essential you don't want bacteria and essential you don't want bacteria and essential you don't want bacteria and other things growing in your cold plunge other things growing in your cold plunge other things growing in your cold plunge basically everything about the plunge is basically everything about the plunge is basically everything about the plunge is made easy so that anyone including made easy so that anyone including made easy so that anyone including myself can gather deliberate cold myself can gather deliberate cold myself can gather deliberate cold exposure on a regular basis at home if exposure on a regular basis at home if exposure on a regular basis at home if you're interested in getting a plunge you're interested in getting a plunge you're interested in getting a plunge you can go to plunge spelled you can go to plunge spelled you can go to plunge spelled p-l-u-n-ge.com huberman and get 100 p-l-u-n-ge.com huberman and get 100 p-l-u-n-ge.com huberman and get 100 fifty dollars off your cold plunge again fifty dollars off your cold plunge again fifty dollars off your cold plunge again that's plunge.com huberman for 150 off that's plunge.com huberman for 150 off that's plunge.com huberman for 150 off today's episode is also brought To Us by today's episode is also brought To Us by today's episode is also brought To Us by Maui Nui venison which I can confidently Maui Nui venison which I can confidently Maui Nui venison which I can confidently say is the most nutrient dense and say is the most nutrient dense and
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07:00place in Chicago on September 28th both place in Chicago on September 28th both Live Events will include a lecture and a Live Events will include a lecture and a Live Events will include a lecture and a question and answer period and are question and answer period and are question and answer period and are entitled The Brain body contract during entitled The Brain body contract during entitled The Brain body contract during which I will discuss tools and science which I will discuss tools and science which I will discuss tools and science related to mental health physical health related to mental health physical health and performance I should mention that a and performance I should mention that a and performance I should mention that a lot of that content will have absolutely lot of that content will have absolutely lot of that content will have absolutely no overlap with content covered no overlap with content covered no overlap with content covered previously on the huberman Lab podcast previously on the huberman Lab podcast previously on the huberman Lab podcast or elsewhere if you're interested in or elsewhere if you're interested in or elsewhere if you're interested in attending either or both of these events attending either or both of these events attending either or both of these events please go to hubermanlab.com tour and please go to hubermanlab.com tour and please go to hubermanlab.com tour and enter the code huberman to get early enter the code huberman to get early enter the code huberman to get early access to tickets once again that's access to tickets once again that's access to tickets once again that's hubermanlab.com tour and use the code hubermanlab.com tour and use the code hubermanlab.com tour and use the code huberman to access tickets I hope to see huberman to access tickets I hope to see huberman to access tickets I hope to see you there and now for my discussion with you there and now for my discussion with you there and now for my discussion with Dr Susanna soberg Dr Susanna soberg Dr Susanna soberg Dr Susanna soberg Dr Susanna soberg Dr Susanna soberg welcome welcome welcome thank you so great to have you here I thank you so great to have you here I thank you so great to have you here I feel like I should give a little bit of feel like I should give a little bit of feel like I should give a little bit of the back story of how we got connected the back story of how we got connected the back story of how we got connected which was that for many years I've been which was that for many years I've been which was that for many years I've been interested in cold thermogenesis it was interested in cold thermogenesis it was interested in cold thermogenesis it was the topic of my seniors thesis in the topic of my seniors thesis in the topic of my seniors thesis in college and I've of course followed the college and I've of course followed the college and I've of course followed the popularity of Wim Hof and we've had Dr
08:00popularity of Wim Hof and we've had Dr popularity of Wim Hof and we've had Dr Craig Heller my colleague from biology Craig Heller my colleague from biology Craig Heller my colleague from biology department at Stanford who works on cold department at Stanford who works on cold department at Stanford who works on cold and its impact on physiology and sports and its impact on physiology and sports and its impact on physiology and sports performance so for a long time I've been performance so for a long time I've been performance so for a long time I've been interested in this area interested in this area interested in this area but there's been a real uh lack of new but there's been a real uh lack of new but there's been a real uh lack of new let's say high profile quality let's say high profile quality let's say high profile quality scientific information in terms of how scientific information in terms of how scientific information in terms of how for instance cold plunges and sauna how for instance cold plunges and sauna how for instance cold plunges and sauna how that impacts human physiology I know that impacts human physiology I know that impacts human physiology I know there's been some information out there there's been some information out there there's been some information out there but it's been sort of scattered and then but it's been sort of scattered and then but it's been sort of scattered and then a little over a year ago I see this a little over a year ago I see this a little over a year ago I see this paper in cell reports medicine and was paper in cell reports medicine and was paper in cell reports medicine and was immediately struck the first of all the immediately struck the first of all the immediately struck the first of all the fact that it was in cell reports fact that it was in cell reports fact that it was in cell reports medicine I've been on the cell press medicine I've been on the cell press medicine I've been on the cell press editorial board for a long time now so editorial board for a long time now so editorial board for a long time now so I'll press journals are of course I'll press journals are of course I'll press journals are of course phenomenal journals and the title and phenomenal journals and the title and phenomenal journals and the title and the content of the paper was directly in the content of the paper was directly in the content of the paper was directly in line with the sorts of practices that line with the sorts of practices that line with the sorts of practices that people are very curious about and that people are very curious about and that people are very curious about and that are starting to emerge things like sauna
09:00are starting to emerge things like sauna are starting to emerge things like sauna cold plunges and there was your name cold plunges and there was your name cold plunges and there was your name first first first on the author list and I reached out to on the author list and I reached out to on the author list and I reached out to you through social media and we've done you through social media and we've done you through social media and we've done a little bit of live content there a little bit of live content there a little bit of live content there together and I've been tracking what together and I've been tracking what together and I've been tracking what you've been doing in the world in terms you've been doing in the world in terms you've been doing in the world in terms of your book and talking about the of your book and talking about the of your book and talking about the results in your manuscript and talking results in your manuscript and talking results in your manuscript and talking about the science and impact of about the science and impact of about the science and impact of deliberate cold exposure and sauna and I deliberate cold exposure and sauna and I deliberate cold exposure and sauna and I have to say that it's been a wonderful have to say that it's been a wonderful have to say that it's been a wonderful and remarkable thing to see and you're and remarkable thing to see and you're and remarkable thing to see and you're bringing so much quality information bringing so much quality information bringing so much quality information about this area that for a long time I about this area that for a long time I about this area that for a long time I think was kind of Niche and is now think was kind of Niche and is now think was kind of Niche and is now becoming more and more mainstream so I'm becoming more and more mainstream so I'm becoming more and more mainstream so I'm going to start off with a thank you for going to start off with a thank you for going to start off with a thank you for being here and a thank you for the work being here and a thank you for the work being here and a thank you for the work that you've done and I'm looking forward that you've done and I'm looking forward that you've done and I'm looking forward to talking to you about it today so my to talking to you about it today so my to talking to you about it today so my first question to get things started is first question to get things started is first question to get things started is what is happening when we get into an what is happening when we get into an what is happening when we get into an uncomfortably cold environment uncomfortably cold environment uncomfortably cold environment so for instance if I'm really hot on a so for instance if I'm really hot on a so for instance if I'm really hot on a hot day jumping into a cold pool feels hot day jumping into a cold pool feels hot day jumping into a cold pool feels really good but if I'm already kind of
10:00really good but if I'm already kind of really good but if I'm already kind of at room temperature I'm a little bit at room temperature I'm a little bit at room temperature I'm a little bit chilly getting into that same chilly getting into that same chilly getting into that same temperature of water doesn't feel so temperature of water doesn't feel so temperature of water doesn't feel so good right there's a shock there so if good right there's a shock there so if good right there's a shock there so if you could just walk us through what you could just walk us through what you could just walk us through what happens when we get into uncomfortably happens when we get into uncomfortably happens when we get into uncomfortably cold water whether or not it's by way of cold water whether or not it's by way of cold water whether or not it's by way of shower or cold Plunge at the level of shower or cold Plunge at the level of shower or cold Plunge at the level of our physiology and if you'd like our our physiology and if you'd like our our physiology and if you'd like our psychology I think that's a good place psychology I think that's a good place psychology I think that's a good place for us to start because I think it will for us to start because I think it will for us to start because I think it will Orient people to their own experience if Orient people to their own experience if Orient people to their own experience if they do that yeah and for those that they do that yeah and for those that they do that yeah and for those that haven't done it might start to peel back haven't done it might start to peel back haven't done it might start to peel back some of the the layers as to what the some of the the layers as to what the some of the the layers as to what the underlying mechanisms of cold are yeah underlying mechanisms of cold are yeah underlying mechanisms of cold are yeah thank you for that question it's really thank you for that question it's really thank you for that question it's really good to just address what actually good to just address what actually good to just address what actually happens in our physiology when we get happens in our physiology when we get happens in our physiology when we get cold and you can get cold in many ways cold and you can get cold in many ways cold and you can get cold in many ways so you can just head out for the one so you can just head out for the one so you can just head out for the one that gives you the most potent stressor that gives you the most potent stressor that gives you the most potent stressor which is submerging into cold water and which is submerging into cold water and which is submerging into cold water and but you could also go in outside in the but you could also go in outside in the but you could also go in outside in the cold wind that's also going to activate cold wind that's also going to activate cold wind that's also going to activate your your your um your sympathetic nervous system so um your sympathetic nervous system so um your sympathetic nervous system so get all these neurotransmitter going in get all these neurotransmitter going in get all these neurotransmitter going in your body and so your your
11:00your body and so your your your body and so your your catecholamines catecholamines catecholamines um let's just address that we are taking um let's just address that we are taking um let's just address that we are taking a cold plunge for example so if you are a cold plunge for example so if you are a cold plunge for example so if you are very hot for example very hot for example very hot for example um before you go into the cold water um before you go into the cold water um before you go into the cold water it's going to feel less it's going to it's going to feel less it's going to it's going to feel less it's going to feel less stressful but the the feel less stressful but the the feel less stressful but the the temperature difference from your skin to temperature difference from your skin to temperature difference from your skin to the cold is definitely it's going to the cold is definitely it's going to the cold is definitely it's going to give you a shock but your core give you a shock but your core give you a shock but your core temperature is warmer and that's going temperature is warmer and that's going temperature is warmer and that's going to feel a little bit better so that's to feel a little bit better so that's to feel a little bit better so that's why when people go into a sauna for why when people go into a sauna for why when people go into a sauna for example and go out and in into the cold example and go out and in into the cold example and go out and in into the cold water they they they can do it easily water they they they can do it easily water they they they can do it easily ECR them if they were called beforehand ECR them if they were called beforehand ECR them if they were called beforehand could I just um ask you a few questions could I just um ask you a few questions could I just um ask you a few questions so you you mentioned the sympathetic so you you mentioned the sympathetic so you you mentioned the sympathetic nervous system which for um people nervous system which for um people nervous system which for um people listening who aren't familiar with that listening who aren't familiar with that listening who aren't familiar with that is that the branch of our nervous system is that the branch of our nervous system is that the branch of our nervous system that's responsible for creating that's responsible for creating that's responsible for creating accelerations and heart rate accelerations and heart rate accelerations and heart rate um feelings of alertness it's um feelings of alertness it's um feelings of alertness it's accompanied with stress and the stress accompanied with stress and the stress accompanied with stress and the stress response but it's accompanied with response but it's accompanied with response but it's accompanied with waking up in the morning for that matter waking up in the morning for that matter waking up in the morning for that matter so it's not always about stress and then so it's not always about stress and then so it's not always about stress and then you mentioned the catecholamines which
12:00you mentioned the catecholamines which you mentioned the catecholamines which um are dopamine epinephrine and um are dopamine epinephrine and um are dopamine epinephrine and norepinephrine so maybe a little bit norepinephrine so maybe a little bit norepinephrine so maybe a little bit later we'll talk about those individual later we'll talk about those individual later we'll talk about those individual neurotransmitters but you raise a really neurotransmitters but you raise a really neurotransmitters but you raise a really important point which is something I get important point which is something I get important point which is something I get asked about a lot for people that are asked about a lot for people that are asked about a lot for people that are curious about using deliberate cold curious about using deliberate cold curious about using deliberate cold exposure which is how cold should the exposure which is how cold should the exposure which is how cold should the water be and I know it's very hard to water be and I know it's very hard to water be and I know it's very hard to give a straight prescription for that give a straight prescription for that give a straight prescription for that because I think it boils down to what because I think it boils down to what because I think it boils down to what you just said which is it's really the you just said which is it's really the you just said which is it's really the difference between your current difference between your current difference between your current temperature and really the temperature temperature and really the temperature temperature and really the temperature of the surface of your skin and the of the surface of your skin and the of the surface of your skin and the temperature of the water so if you're temperature of the water so if you're temperature of the water so if you're very warm getting into cold feels good very warm getting into cold feels good very warm getting into cold feels good if you're already cold getting into more if you're already cold getting into more if you're already cold getting into more cold feels stressful cold feels stressful cold feels stressful um is there any way that we can start to um is there any way that we can start to um is there any way that we can start to gauge what is the best way to approach a gauge what is the best way to approach a gauge what is the best way to approach a deliberate cold exposure protocol I mean deliberate cold exposure protocol I mean deliberate cold exposure protocol I mean should it feel uncomfortable and that should it feel uncomfortable and that should it feel uncomfortable and that leads into the question of how do we leads into the question of how do we leads into the question of how do we balance the discomfort with the amount balance the discomfort with the amount balance the discomfort with the amount of time that we spend in so for instance of time that we spend in so for instance of time that we spend in so for instance if it's just a little bit uncomfortable if it's just a little bit uncomfortable if it's just a little bit uncomfortable while spending more time in the cold get while spending more time in the cold get while spending more time in the cold get us the same benefit as getting into very us the same benefit as getting into very us the same benefit as getting into very uncomfortably cold water for a very
13:00uncomfortably cold water for a very uncomfortably cold water for a very short period of time short period of time short period of time yeah it's really good question and I yeah it's really good question and I yeah it's really good question and I definitely think that this could be definitely think that this could be definitely think that this could be future studies on this as well to really future studies on this as well to really future studies on this as well to really unravel uh what kind of Protocols are unravel uh what kind of Protocols are unravel uh what kind of Protocols are the are the best way or also for which the are the best way or also for which the are the best way or also for which outcomes of course outcomes of course outcomes of course so if the temperature is very cold and so if the temperature is very cold and so if the temperature is very cold and you feel that you also feel very cold you feel that you also feel very cold you feel that you also feel very cold then you you should stay in the water a then you you should stay in the water a then you you should stay in the water a little bit longer so I think it's just little bit longer so I think it's just little bit longer so I think it's just you should get uncomfortable cold so as you should get uncomfortable cold so as you should get uncomfortable cold so as long as you get uncomfortable coat it's long as you get uncomfortable coat it's long as you get uncomfortable coat it's cold enough and you get this what we cold enough and you get this what we cold enough and you get this what we call the code shark so the code stock is call the code shark so the code stock is call the code shark so the code stock is activation of your sympathetic nervous activation of your sympathetic nervous activation of your sympathetic nervous system and these activation of the the system and these activation of the the system and these activation of the the catecholamines which you just mentioned catecholamines which you just mentioned catecholamines which you just mentioned before does the shock mean that I'm before does the shock mean that I'm before does the shock mean that I'm having trouble controlling my breathing having trouble controlling my breathing having trouble controlling my breathing is that a good gauge uh yeah you can say is that a good gauge uh yeah you can say is that a good gauge uh yeah you can say so because that's kind of like how we so because that's kind of like how we so because that's kind of like how we Define it so you hyperventilate so you Define it so you hyperventilate so you Define it so you hyperventilate so you have a faster have a faster have a faster um breathing rate um breathing rate um breathing rate um so that increases also because you um so that increases also because you um so that increases also because you activate your gasping reflex if you are
14:00activate your gasping reflex if you are activate your gasping reflex if you are new to this new to this new to this um but if you are adapted it it kind of um but if you are adapted it it kind of um but if you are adapted it it kind of subsides with time with the adaptation subsides with time with the adaptation subsides with time with the adaptation so what you can do is that you can train so what you can do is that you can train so what you can do is that you can train this cold exposure and you can kind of this cold exposure and you can kind of this cold exposure and you can kind of like Get adapted to it so you don't have like Get adapted to it so you don't have like Get adapted to it so you don't have this Hypervenom ventilating response this Hypervenom ventilating response this Hypervenom ventilating response every time you go out in the cold water every time you go out in the cold water every time you go out in the cold water so this is like building up your so this is like building up your so this is like building up your resilience building building up your resilience building building up your resilience building building up your adaptation is gonna make this sharp like adaptation is gonna make this sharp like adaptation is gonna make this sharp like subside a bit so it's it's always harder subside a bit so it's it's always harder subside a bit so it's it's always harder in the beginning but you should do hard in the beginning but you should do hard in the beginning but you should do hard things right it's not something that we things right it's not something that we things right it's not something that we you shouldn't think about cold water and you shouldn't think about cold water and you shouldn't think about cold water and cold water immersion as something that cold water immersion as something that cold water immersion as something that is comfortable it should be hard because is comfortable it should be hard because is comfortable it should be hard because that's the point of it right if you that's the point of it right if you that's the point of it right if you enjoy it then yeah then I'm I'm thinking enjoy it then yeah then I'm I'm thinking enjoy it then yeah then I'm I'm thinking something is wrong it's not right you something is wrong it's not right you something is wrong it's not right you should not enjoy it well this is an should not enjoy it well this is an should not enjoy it well this is an important point that you're making important point that you're making important point that you're making because I think that many people shy because I think that many people shy because I think that many people shy away from deliberate cold exposure away from deliberate cold exposure away from deliberate cold exposure because it's uncomfortable because it's uncomfortable because it's uncomfortable in a way that at least from my in a way that at least from my in a way that at least from my experience is very different than the experience is very different than the experience is very different than the discomfort of exercise because with
15:00discomfort of exercise because with discomfort of exercise because with exercise for instance exercise for instance exercise for instance um if running hard you know running fast um if running hard you know running fast um if running hard you know running fast and breathing hard is uncomfortable you and breathing hard is uncomfortable you and breathing hard is uncomfortable you can slow down or walk if um you know can slow down or walk if um you know can slow down or walk if um you know lifting weights is uncomfortable you can lifting weights is uncomfortable you can lifting weights is uncomfortable you can remove some weight or reduce the number remove some weight or reduce the number remove some weight or reduce the number of repetitions or stop with deliberate of repetitions or stop with deliberate of repetitions or stop with deliberate cold exposure I suppose you can be sort cold exposure I suppose you can be sort cold exposure I suppose you can be sort of halfway in halfway out of the water of halfway in halfway out of the water of halfway in halfway out of the water or partially underneath the cold shower or partially underneath the cold shower or partially underneath the cold shower but it's very hard to titrate and adjust but it's very hard to titrate and adjust but it's very hard to titrate and adjust the level it's kind of all or none and the level it's kind of all or none and the level it's kind of all or none and I've seen um I should just I can tell I've seen um I should just I can tell I've seen um I should just I can tell this by anecdote I've done some work this by anecdote I've done some work this by anecdote I've done some work with military Special Operations I won't with military Special Operations I won't with military Special Operations I won't say which country this was outside the say which country this was outside the say which country this was outside the U.S U.S U.S um and these are very tough individuals um and these are very tough individuals um and these are very tough individuals they're used to going without sleep and they're used to going without sleep and they're used to going without sleep and doing hard high consequence higher risk doing hard high consequence higher risk doing hard high consequence higher risk kind of work kind of work kind of work and they were asked to do some cold and they were asked to do some cold and they were asked to do some cold water exposure training and I was there water exposure training and I was there water exposure training and I was there that day and it was remarkable about a that day and it was remarkable about a that day and it was remarkable about a third of them just went straight in and third of them just went straight in and third of them just went straight in and just kind of grinded through it you know
16:00just kind of grinded through it you know just kind of grinded through it you know like they looked stoic anyway to me like they looked stoic anyway to me like they looked stoic anyway to me um there were a few whimpers no cries um there were a few whimpers no cries um there were a few whimpers no cries about a third about a third about a third um um um talked a lot and got really you could talked a lot and got really you could talked a lot and got really you could tell that they were agitated and anxious tell that they were agitated and anxious tell that they were agitated and anxious but they made it through and then about but they made it through and then about but they made it through and then about a third of them just simply would not a third of them just simply would not a third of them just simply would not get in past their knees or thighs we're get in past their knees or thighs we're get in past their knees or thighs we're just it seemed like they were just just it seemed like they were just just it seemed like they were just dreading the whole experience someone dreading the whole experience someone dreading the whole experience someone actually didn't actually go in actually didn't actually go in actually didn't actually go in completely completely completely um which was really surprising to me and um which was really surprising to me and um which was really surprising to me and that you couldn't tell based on their that you couldn't tell based on their that you couldn't tell based on their physical appearance or anything else physical appearance or anything else physical appearance or anything else about them they're all high performers about them they're all high performers about them they're all high performers as to who would have this response so it as to who would have this response so it as to who would have this response so it seems like people vary tremendously in seems like people vary tremendously in seems like people vary tremendously in terms of their ability to embrace the terms of their ability to embrace the terms of their ability to embrace the discomfort of the cold is that from your discomfort of the cold is that from your discomfort of the cold is that from your studies is that your experience as well studies is that your experience as well studies is that your experience as well or or are there these weird mutants who or or are there these weird mutants who or or are there these weird mutants who seem to just love going into the cold seem to just love going into the cold seem to just love going into the cold for the first time for the first time for the first time so some people just feel better in the so some people just feel better in the so some people just feel better in the cold and some people dread the code even cold and some people dread the code even cold and some people dread the code even more and you can say the more people are more and you can say the more people are more and you can say the more people are pushing the cold away they might feel pushing the cold away they might feel pushing the cold away they might feel the co-pain even more so they they they
17:00the co-pain even more so they they they the co-pain even more so they they they would definitely people who are maybe would definitely people who are maybe would definitely people who are maybe the soldiers you just talked about they the soldiers you just talked about they the soldiers you just talked about they some of them might be already adapted to some of them might be already adapted to some of them might be already adapted to the gold cold so if they are not scared the gold cold so if they are not scared the gold cold so if they are not scared of the cold they go out and they embrace of the cold they go out and they embrace of the cold they go out and they embrace the code in a better way it could also the code in a better way it could also the code in a better way it could also be that some people have a more be that some people have a more be that some people have a more sensitive nervous system and when you sensitive nervous system and when you sensitive nervous system and when you are a bit sensitive to the cold you will are a bit sensitive to the cold you will are a bit sensitive to the cold you will of course try to get away from it right of course try to get away from it right of course try to get away from it right and you also have the co-pain more um and you also have the co-pain more um and you also have the co-pain more um feel the co-pay more if they if if you feel the co-pay more if they if if you feel the co-pay more if they if if you avoid it so the more you avoid the cold avoid it so the more you avoid the cold avoid it so the more you avoid the cold the more pain painful it will feel when the more pain painful it will feel when the more pain painful it will feel when you go into it so yeah you mentioned you go into it so yeah you mentioned you go into it so yeah you mentioned being outside in a t-shirt versus cold being outside in a t-shirt versus cold being outside in a t-shirt versus cold immersion up to the neck versus shower I immersion up to the neck versus shower I immersion up to the neck versus shower I think um this is something a lot of think um this is something a lot of think um this is something a lot of people wonder about what are the people wonder about what are the people wonder about what are the different in terms of impact short term different in terms of impact short term different in terms of impact short term and perhaps even long term between cold and perhaps even long term between cold and perhaps even long term between cold showers cold plunge to the neck so that showers cold plunge to the neck so that showers cold plunge to the neck so that could be an ice water or just very cold could be an ice water or just very cold could be an ice water or just very cold water water water um immersion with dunking one's head and
18:00um immersion with dunking one's head and um immersion with dunking one's head and then coming up because obviously people then coming up because obviously people then coming up because obviously people have to come up for air at some point have to come up for air at some point have to come up for air at some point and then simply being outside on a cold and then simply being outside on a cold and then simply being outside on a cold day in shorts and a t-shirt or something day in shorts and a t-shirt or something day in shorts and a t-shirt or something of that sort so there are different of that sort so there are different of that sort so there are different outcomes outcomes outcomes um because they're they are very um because they're they are very um because they're they are very different exposures of the code to your different exposures of the code to your different exposures of the code to your co-receptors in your skin so the more co-receptors in your skin so the more co-receptors in your skin so the more you can say you cover your body in the you can say you cover your body in the you can say you cover your body in the cold which you would do in cold water cold which you would do in cold water cold which you would do in cold water because there are of course covered because there are of course covered because there are of course covered totally and then and the molecules are totally and then and the molecules are totally and then and the molecules are closer to your skin you have a more closer to your skin you have a more closer to your skin you have a more potent potent potent um activation of all your code receptors um activation of all your code receptors um activation of all your code receptors in the skin so that one will definitely in the skin so that one will definitely in the skin so that one will definitely activate your other enormous nervous activate your other enormous nervous activate your other enormous nervous system more and Rapid compared to going system more and Rapid compared to going system more and Rapid compared to going out in a t-shirt in the cold wind just out in a t-shirt in the cold wind just out in a t-shirt in the cold wind just go for a walk go for a walk go for a walk um but that is also something that's um but that is also something that's um but that is also something that's gonna activate your sympathetic nervous gonna activate your sympathetic nervous gonna activate your sympathetic nervous system meaning them that you have an system meaning them that you have an system meaning them that you have an increase in Normal epinephrine and you
19:00increase in Normal epinephrine and you increase in Normal epinephrine and you will activate something called the the will activate something called the the will activate something called the the brown fat so this is a healthy kind of brown fat so this is a healthy kind of brown fat so this is a healthy kind of fat tissue that we have in our body and fat tissue that we have in our body and fat tissue that we have in our body and when you activate that that's gonna when you activate that that's gonna when you activate that that's gonna increase your metabolism before we talk increase your metabolism before we talk increase your metabolism before we talk about Brown fat and I'm so glad you about Brown fat and I'm so glad you about Brown fat and I'm so glad you brought it up brought it up brought it up um because it's so much to talk about um because it's so much to talk about um because it's so much to talk about there uh what about cold shower I mean there uh what about cold shower I mean there uh what about cold shower I mean obviously cold showers somewhere in obviously cold showers somewhere in obviously cold showers somewhere in between yeah um being out outside in the between yeah um being out outside in the between yeah um being out outside in the Air Cold Air versus uh being immersed up Air Cold Air versus uh being immersed up Air Cold Air versus uh being immersed up to the neck if we had more studies on on to the neck if we had more studies on on to the neck if we had more studies on on cold showers we would learn more about cold showers we would learn more about cold showers we would learn more about how does that activate our metabolism how does that activate our metabolism how does that activate our metabolism how does that increase our how does that increase our how does that increase our neurotransmitters in the brain which neurotransmitters in the brain which neurotransmitters in the brain which could also have an impact our on our could also have an impact our on our could also have an impact our on our mental balance so I think that would be mental balance so I think that would be mental balance so I think that would be interesting for the future interesting for the future interesting for the future um but what we do know is from from from um but what we do know is from from from um but what we do know is from from from activating Brown fat and both from activating Brown fat and both from activating Brown fat and both from rodent studies but also in humans is rodent studies but also in humans is rodent studies but also in humans is that as soon as we get cold on our skin that as soon as we get cold on our skin that as soon as we get cold on our skin we will activate our Brown fat so it is we will activate our Brown fat so it is we will activate our Brown fat so it is kind of like our first responder in in
20:00kind of like our first responder in in kind of like our first responder in in the body to keep our the body to keep our the body to keep our um temperature up so our muscles is like um temperature up so our muscles is like um temperature up so our muscles is like the second tissue in our body we have the second tissue in our body we have the second tissue in our body we have two tissues which can increase our two tissues which can increase our two tissues which can increase our thermogenesis so the brown fat which is thermogenesis so the brown fat which is thermogenesis so the brown fat which is like always like temperature regulating like always like temperature regulating like always like temperature regulating our body and then we have uh the the our body and then we have uh the the our body and then we have uh the the muscles which will secondarily start to muscles which will secondarily start to muscles which will secondarily start to shiver and that's going to increase our shiver and that's going to increase our shiver and that's going to increase our um temperature in the body but as soon um temperature in the body but as soon um temperature in the body but as soon as you go into a cold shower you as you go into a cold shower you as you go into a cold shower you activate your brown fat also immediately activate your brown fat also immediately activate your brown fat also immediately so it could be good also for increasing so it could be good also for increasing so it could be good also for increasing metabolism in theory because we haven't metabolism in theory because we haven't metabolism in theory because we haven't really any studies showing how much this really any studies showing how much this really any studies showing how much this actually activate the brown fat so if actually activate the brown fat so if actually activate the brown fat so if someone out there wants to do a study someone out there wants to do a study someone out there wants to do a study I've thought about why there are fewer I've thought about why there are fewer I've thought about why there are fewer studies of cold showers than cold studies of cold showers than cold studies of cold showers than cold immersion and I think the answer to my immersion and I think the answer to my immersion and I think the answer to my mind is that from a methodological mind is that from a methodological mind is that from a methodological standpoint it's just harder to do standpoint it's just harder to do standpoint it's just harder to do because because because if people are getting into cold water up if people are getting into cold water up if people are getting into cold water up to the neck they're getting into cold to the neck they're getting into cold to the neck they're getting into cold water up to the neck whereas if people water up to the neck whereas if people water up to the neck whereas if people are getting into a cold shower some
21:00are getting into a cold shower some are getting into a cold shower some people are larger or smaller some people people are larger or smaller some people people are larger or smaller some people are going to stand under the shower with are going to stand under the shower with are going to stand under the shower with it hitting their head some people the it hitting their head some people the it hitting their head some people the back of the neck you could direct people back of the neck you could direct people back of the neck you could direct people to do it yeah but it's a little bit um to do it yeah but it's a little bit um to do it yeah but it's a little bit um more difficult also I think uh for you more difficult also I think uh for you more difficult also I think uh for you and I are both research scientists and I are both research scientists and I are both research scientists there's a little bit of a um there's a little bit of a um there's a little bit of a um methodological challenge that might seem methodological challenge that might seem methodological challenge that might seem silly to people but it's a real one silly to people but it's a real one silly to people but it's a real one which is if people are in a cold shower which is if people are in a cold shower which is if people are in a cold shower also the water is going to be I'm kind also the water is going to be I'm kind also the water is going to be I'm kind of pushing their clothing against their of pushing their clothing against their of pushing their clothing against their skin there's a certain vulnerability and skin there's a certain vulnerability and skin there's a certain vulnerability and for most people coming to a laboratory for most people coming to a laboratory for most people coming to a laboratory in the first place let alone being in the first place let alone being in the first place let alone being observed while they shower whereas when observed while they shower whereas when observed while they shower whereas when you get into cold emerge in cold you get into cold emerge in cold you get into cold emerge in cold immersion you're getting under the water immersion you're getting under the water immersion you're getting under the water and you know some people might roll and you know some people might roll and you know some people might roll their eyes and say okay really is that their eyes and say okay really is that their eyes and say okay really is that the barrier but you know science exists the barrier but you know science exists the barrier but you know science exists in these real world contexts and this in these real world contexts and this in these real world contexts and this will vary by culture and things of that will vary by culture and things of that will vary by culture and things of that sort but we run human subjects in my lab sort but we run human subjects in my lab sort but we run human subjects in my lab and I'll tell you just um the process of and I'll tell you just um the process of and I'll tell you just um the process of getting people to the laboratory and getting people to the laboratory and getting people to the laboratory and having them Park and find the lab and having them Park and find the lab and having them Park and find the lab and you know it's a whole new environment you know it's a whole new environment you know it's a whole new environment with people in lab coats and people with people in lab coats and people with people in lab coats and people moving around and Where's the restroom I moving around and Where's the restroom I moving around and Where's the restroom I mean there's there's a certain amount of mean there's there's a certain amount of mean there's there's a certain amount of stress just associated with taking part
22:00stress just associated with taking part stress just associated with taking part in a study for most human subjects so in a study for most human subjects so in a study for most human subjects so um I uh totally agree however we need um I uh totally agree however we need um I uh totally agree however we need more studies of of cold showers it's more studies of of cold showers it's more studies of of cold showers it's just a harder environment to control in just a harder environment to control in just a harder environment to control in my in my mind so it sounds like any form my in my mind so it sounds like any form my in my mind so it sounds like any form of cold to the skin of cold to the skin of cold to the skin that people register as what you call that people register as what you call that people register as what you call the cold shock or uncomfortable like oh the cold shock or uncomfortable like oh the cold shock or uncomfortable like oh like this is kind of jarring activates like this is kind of jarring activates like this is kind of jarring activates the brown fat do we know what the the brown fat do we know what the the brown fat do we know what the pathway is from cold receptors on the pathway is from cold receptors on the pathway is from cold receptors on the skin to the brown fat I mean how does skin to the brown fat I mean how does skin to the brown fat I mean how does the brown fat know that we're cold yeah the brown fat know that we're cold yeah the brown fat know that we're cold yeah really good question and this seems that really good question and this seems that really good question and this seems that I I think that of course in the future I I think that of course in the future I I think that of course in the future we will know much more about these we will know much more about these we will know much more about these Pathways but what we do know is that the Pathways but what we do know is that the Pathways but what we do know is that the co-receptors will send a signal to our co-receptors will send a signal to our co-receptors will send a signal to our temperature regulating Center in in the temperature regulating Center in in the temperature regulating Center in in the brain so hypothalamus brain so hypothalamus brain so hypothalamus um and that's gonna be um and that's gonna be um and that's gonna be um taking in this message and we have so um taking in this message and we have so um taking in this message and we have so many co-preceptors in the skin so it's many co-preceptors in the skin so it's many co-preceptors in the skin so it's going to be very fast as you can say if going to be very fast as you can say if going to be very fast as you can say if you immerse the body into cold water you immerse the body into cold water you immerse the body into cold water this is going to be so rapid so it will
23:00this is going to be so rapid so it will this is going to be so rapid so it will have a rapid increase in have a rapid increase in have a rapid increase in neurotransmitters in the brain so no neurotransmitters in the brain so no neurotransmitters in the brain so no adrenaline adrenaline and cortisol and adrenaline adrenaline and cortisol and adrenaline adrenaline and cortisol and which is not that much but it's but it's which is not that much but it's but it's which is not that much but it's but it's still there so you have this increase in still there so you have this increase in still there so you have this increase in no adrenaline which will then no adrenaline which will then no adrenaline which will then immediately activate the the brown fat immediately activate the the brown fat immediately activate the the brown fat because the you can say the activator is because the you can say the activator is because the you can say the activator is the most potent one cold and no the most potent one cold and no the most potent one cold and no adrenaline and that's going to activate adrenaline and that's going to activate adrenaline and that's going to activate the brown fat but there's also a direct the brown fat but there's also a direct the brown fat but there's also a direct pathway from the cold receptors in the pathway from the cold receptors in the pathway from the cold receptors in the skin to the to the brown fat which skin to the to the brown fat which skin to the to the brown fat which really shows that if because of these really shows that if because of these really shows that if because of these different Pathways it shows that that it different Pathways it shows that that it different Pathways it shows that that it could be that this tissue to keep us could be that this tissue to keep us could be that this tissue to keep us warm was was warm was was warm was was developed in in our evolvement as humans developed in in our evolvement as humans developed in in our evolvement as humans to keep us warm and to save us whenever to keep us warm and to save us whenever to keep us warm and to save us whenever the temperature now on our skin varies the temperature now on our skin varies the temperature now on our skin varies just a little bit to keep us in that just a little bit to keep us in that just a little bit to keep us in that right homeostatic balance so we don't right homeostatic balance so we don't right homeostatic balance so we don't get hypothermic get hypothermic get hypothermic um but also so we don't get hyperthermic
24:00um but also so we don't get hyperthermic um but also so we don't get hyperthermic but because it seems that the brown fat but because it seems that the brown fat but because it seems that the brown fat is also activated when we get warmer on is also activated when we get warmer on is also activated when we get warmer on our skin so it's also our skin so it's also our skin so it's also um maybe a temperature regulator in our um maybe a temperature regulator in our um maybe a temperature regulator in our in our body but the pathways is in our body but the pathways is in our body but the pathways is different I think it's also a third different I think it's also a third different I think it's also a third pathway from directly from the muscles pathway from directly from the muscles pathway from directly from the muscles so the brown fat is also at so the brown fat is also at so the brown fat is also at um even though the muscles are starting um even though the muscles are starting um even though the muscles are starting to shiver so there's an extra pathway to shiver so there's an extra pathway to shiver so there's an extra pathway that way to keep our our temperature up that way to keep our our temperature up that way to keep our our temperature up so muscles and brown fat are working so muscles and brown fat are working so muscles and brown fat are working together too to keep us warm so we don't together too to keep us warm so we don't together too to keep us warm so we don't suffer too much in the in the cold water suffer too much in the in the cold water suffer too much in the in the cold water it's super interesting and what I here it's super interesting and what I here it's super interesting and what I here are you pointing to is the existence of are you pointing to is the existence of are you pointing to is the existence of three parallel Pathways and this notion three parallel Pathways and this notion three parallel Pathways and this notion of parallel Pathways comes up over and of parallel Pathways comes up over and of parallel Pathways comes up over and over again in biology as you and I know over again in biology as you and I know over again in biology as you and I know and I mean I think it's important for and I mean I think it's important for and I mean I think it's important for people to know about because people to know about because people to know about because um as you uh said so so eloquently the um as you uh said so so eloquently the um as you uh said so so eloquently the when something is very important to our when something is very important to our when something is very important to our survival or and or evolution survival or and or evolution survival or and or evolution the brain and body uh install multiple the brain and body uh install multiple the brain and body uh install multiple mechanisms for it not just one and um
25:00mechanisms for it not just one and um mechanisms for it not just one and um and so it sounds like it's cold skin and so it sounds like it's cold skin and so it sounds like it's cold skin cold on the skin triggers a response in cold on the skin triggers a response in cold on the skin triggers a response in the hypothalamus which then activates the hypothalamus which then activates the hypothalamus which then activates Brown fat cold receptors in the skin Brown fat cold receptors in the skin Brown fat cold receptors in the skin directly to the brown fat and then directly to the brown fat and then directly to the brown fat and then shivering in the muscle to the brown fat shivering in the muscle to the brown fat shivering in the muscle to the brown fat um I want to talk about Brown fat in um I want to talk about Brown fat in um I want to talk about Brown fat in depth and learn from you more about depth and learn from you more about depth and learn from you more about Brown fat Brown fat Brown fat um before that however I want to ask um before that however I want to ask um before that however I want to ask about shiver about shiver about shiver um I've heard that shiver um I've heard that shiver um I've heard that shiver causes the release of succinate causes the release of succinate causes the release of succinate um which then activates the brown fat is um which then activates the brown fat is um which then activates the brown fat is it known whether or not inducing shiver it known whether or not inducing shiver it known whether or not inducing shiver is important and when should P people is important and when should P people is important and when should P people Shiver I mean I've gotten into cold Shiver I mean I've gotten into cold Shiver I mean I've gotten into cold plunges and shivered while I was in plunges and shivered while I was in plunges and shivered while I was in there and then I've also had the there and then I've also had the there and then I've also had the experience experience experience of getting into a coal plunger a cold of getting into a coal plunger a cold of getting into a coal plunger a cold shower then getting out or even standing shower then getting out or even standing shower then getting out or even standing outside on a warm day after swimming in outside on a warm day after swimming in outside on a warm day after swimming in a pool and then starting to shiver so a pool and then starting to shiver so a pool and then starting to shiver so the shiver comes later so how important the shiver comes later so how important the shiver comes later so how important is shiver and does it matter when shiver is shiver and does it matter when shiver is shiver and does it matter when shiver happens
26:00happens happens yeah it was shivering is good because yeah it was shivering is good because yeah it was shivering is good because that increases your metabolism and that increases your metabolism and that increases your metabolism and that's going to burn some calories in that's going to burn some calories in that's going to burn some calories in your body you shouldn't be so afraid of your body you shouldn't be so afraid of your body you shouldn't be so afraid of shivering I think because the Shivering shivering I think because the Shivering shivering I think because the Shivering as long as you don't get too hypothermic as long as you don't get too hypothermic as long as you don't get too hypothermic so if you don't if you don't sit in the so if you don't if you don't sit in the so if you don't if you don't sit in the cold water for too long cold water for too long cold water for too long um and what you just said by shivering um and what you just said by shivering um and what you just said by shivering after you get up that is because of the after you get up that is because of the after you get up that is because of the after drop something called the after after drop something called the after after drop something called the after drop is when your core temperature drop is when your core temperature drop is when your core temperature decreases even after you get out of the decreases even after you get out of the decreases even after you get out of the cold water and it always does that cold water and it always does that cold water and it always does that um your body because it as soon as you um your body because it as soon as you um your body because it as soon as you get into the cold water all the your get into the cold water all the your get into the cold water all the your blood vessels is gonna constrict because blood vessels is gonna constrict because blood vessels is gonna constrict because you need to keep your blood in your core you need to keep your blood in your core you need to keep your blood in your core and and keep your Vital Oak and swarm so and and keep your Vital Oak and swarm so and and keep your Vital Oak and swarm so as soon as you get up that those blood as soon as you get up that those blood as soon as you get up that those blood vessels will open again and the warm vessels will open again and the warm vessels will open again and the warm blood will flow out and get colder and blood will flow out and get colder and blood will flow out and get colder and then flow back again into the core and then flow back again into the core and then flow back again into the core and that's going to decrease the temperature that's going to decrease the temperature that's going to decrease the temperature in your core of course so that's the in your core of course so that's the in your core of course so that's the drop so that's the drop yeah I'm so glad drop so that's the drop yeah I'm so glad drop so that's the drop yeah I'm so glad you explained that I've heard years ago
27:00you explained that I've heard years ago you explained that I've heard years ago go Wim Hof I heard him talk about the go Wim Hof I heard him talk about the go Wim Hof I heard him talk about the drop and I've heard colleagues of mine drop and I've heard colleagues of mine drop and I've heard colleagues of mine talk about the drop but that's the first talk about the drop but that's the first talk about the drop but that's the first time I've ever heard it explained time I've ever heard it explained time I've ever heard it explained clearly let me let me make sure I clearly let me let me make sure I clearly let me let me make sure I understand this so understand this so understand this so um I get into cold water obviously I'm um I get into cold water obviously I'm um I get into cold water obviously I'm cold cold cold vessels constrict to keep blood near the vessels constrict to keep blood near the vessels constrict to keep blood near the center of my body keep me alive center of my body keep me alive center of my body keep me alive I get out I get out I get out the the the warming up of my body allows those warming up of my body allows those warming up of my body allows those vessels and capillaries to dilate again vessels and capillaries to dilate again vessels and capillaries to dilate again the blood goes out to the surface but the blood goes out to the surface but the blood goes out to the surface but the surface is still cold and so that the surface is still cold and so that the surface is still cold and so that blood is cooled and then my core body blood is cooled and then my core body blood is cooled and then my core body temperature drops and that's what you're temperature drops and that's what you're temperature drops and that's what you're referring to as the drop and that's what referring to as the drop and that's what referring to as the drop and that's what induces shiver exactly right and then am induces shiver exactly right and then am induces shiver exactly right and then am I right in thinking that then the shiver I right in thinking that then the shiver I right in thinking that then the shiver activates Brown fat which then warms me activates Brown fat which then warms me activates Brown fat which then warms me up again yes you know it's what I refer to as and you know it's what I refer to as and what has now become known as the soberg what has now become known as the soberg what has now become known as the soberg principle which is um a really important principle which is um a really important principle which is um a really important principle about the importance of ending principle about the importance of ending principle about the importance of ending on cold
28:00on cold on cold um and not doing what I do which is to um and not doing what I do which is to um and not doing what I do which is to get into a hot shower or back in the get into a hot shower or back in the get into a hot shower or back in the sunroom but we'll get back to that in a sunroom but we'll get back to that in a sunroom but we'll get back to that in a few minutes so few minutes so few minutes so um that's wonderful um that's wonderful um that's wonderful um that you can explain that so clearly um that you can explain that so clearly um that you can explain that so clearly because I think that shiver is something because I think that shiver is something because I think that shiver is something that a lot of people do avoid people that a lot of people do avoid people that a lot of people do avoid people think oh I don't want to you know the think oh I don't want to you know the think oh I don't want to you know the chattering of the teeth and um and it chattering of the teeth and um and it chattering of the teeth and um and it feels like a loss of bodily control feels like a loss of bodily control feels like a loss of bodily control which really it is it's it's an which really it is it's it's an which really it is it's it's an autonomic response yeah but I don't autonomic response yeah but I don't autonomic response yeah but I don't think that people should should avoid it think that people should should avoid it think that people should should avoid it that much it's just like seeing that much it's just like seeing that much it's just like seeing shivering as a way of your body in in a shivering as a way of your body in in a shivering as a way of your body in in a like it's training it's training for like it's training it's training for like it's training it's training for your for all yourselves it's training your for all yourselves it's training your for all yourselves it's training for your muscles it's training up your for your muscles it's training up your for your muscles it's training up your metabolism and that's going to increase metabolism and that's going to increase metabolism and that's going to increase your What's called the insulin your What's called the insulin your What's called the insulin sensitivity so if you can like in your sensitivity so if you can like in your sensitivity so if you can like in your mind get used to the thought of mind get used to the thought of mind get used to the thought of shivering is just like when you go shivering is just like when you go shivering is just like when you go exercising in the training center and exercising in the training center and exercising in the training center and get that feeling of like oh this is get that feeling of like oh this is get that feeling of like oh this is tough now it hurts a little bit yeah tough now it hurts a little bit yeah tough now it hurts a little bit yeah it's gonna hurt because that's what it's gonna hurt because that's what it's gonna hurt because that's what shivering also does but it's just a shivering also does but it's just a shivering also does but it's just a different way of training your cells and
29:00different way of training your cells and different way of training your cells and your body it's going to create what is your body it's going to create what is your body it's going to create what is healthy stress it's called homiesis in healthy stress it's called homiesis in healthy stress it's called homiesis in the cells and the more you expose your the cells and the more you expose your the cells and the more you expose your your muscle cells or your brown fat your muscle cells or your brown fat your muscle cells or your brown fat cells to these kind of like healthy cells to these kind of like healthy cells to these kind of like healthy stresses exercise cold and heat exposure stresses exercise cold and heat exposure stresses exercise cold and heat exposure it's gonna make them uh better at like it's gonna make them uh better at like it's gonna make them uh better at like activate trading and also um at keeping activate trading and also um at keeping activate trading and also um at keeping you healthy so as long as the cells get you healthy so as long as the cells get you healthy so as long as the cells get exposed to this it's going to keep them exposed to this it's going to keep them exposed to this it's going to keep them on its toes you can say because it on its toes you can say because it on its toes you can say because it becomes more robust and increasing these becomes more robust and increasing these becomes more robust and increasing these heat shock proteins and kosher proteins heat shock proteins and kosher proteins heat shock proteins and kosher proteins in the cells to make you more robust for in the cells to make you more robust for in the cells to make you more robust for the next time and that is also what the next time and that is also what the next time and that is also what happens when you go to the training happens when you go to the training happens when you go to the training center and I keep like drawing that center and I keep like drawing that center and I keep like drawing that parallel because people today know more parallel because people today know more parallel because people today know more about we know more about exercise and about we know more about exercise and about we know more about exercise and what that is is going to do to your what that is is going to do to your what that is is going to do to your muscle cells and and but the same kind muscle cells and and but the same kind muscle cells and and but the same kind of like training is also what you do of like training is also what you do of like training is also what you do when you go out and and into the cold when you go out and and into the cold when you go out and and into the cold water and submerge into cold water water and submerge into cold water water and submerge into cold water because that is just your code training
30:00because that is just your code training because that is just your code training center you can say that and and also center you can say that and and also center you can say that and and also your heat Training Center going into the your heat Training Center going into the your heat Training Center going into the sauna because the cells are getting sauna because the cells are getting sauna because the cells are getting stronger with hermetic stress so it's stronger with hermetic stress so it's stronger with hermetic stress so it's the same process just different the same process just different the same process just different practices practices practices I'm so glad that you brought up the fact I'm so glad that you brought up the fact I'm so glad that you brought up the fact that the that the that the discomfort or the embarrassment or both discomfort or the embarrassment or both discomfort or the embarrassment or both of shiver is still crucial to uh of shiver is still crucial to uh of shiver is still crucial to uh actually to reach for and try and actually to reach for and try and actually to reach for and try and experience the same way that with experience the same way that with experience the same way that with exercise exercise exercise um I think a lot of people don't realize um I think a lot of people don't realize um I think a lot of people don't realize this but when we did our series with Dr this but when we did our series with Dr this but when we did our series with Dr Andy Galpin Andy Galpin Andy Galpin it became clear to me what should have it became clear to me what should have it became clear to me what should have already been clear to me and I think already been clear to me and I think already been clear to me and I think that most people don't realize which is that most people don't realize which is that most people don't realize which is that if we were to measure heart rate that if we were to measure heart rate that if we were to measure heart rate blood pressure stress hormones and blood pressure stress hormones and blood pressure stress hormones and inflammation inflammation inflammation in a human being during exercise it in a human being during exercise it in a human being during exercise it would look as if they were ready to die would look as if they were ready to die would look as if they were ready to die blood pressure would be high blood pressure would be high blood pressure would be high inflammation is through the roof but all inflammation is through the roof but all inflammation is through the roof but all of that is setting in motion and of that is setting in motion and of that is setting in motion and adaptation or set of adaptations that adaptation or set of adaptations that adaptation or set of adaptations that allow blood pressure to be lower at rest allow blood pressure to be lower at rest allow blood pressure to be lower at rest that allow inflammation markers to be that allow inflammation markers to be that allow inflammation markers to be lower at rest all the things that
31:00lower at rest all the things that lower at rest all the things that everybody is seeking with exercise in everybody is seeking with exercise in everybody is seeking with exercise in addition to of course the aesthetic addition to of course the aesthetic addition to of course the aesthetic changes that people are seeking with changes that people are seeking with changes that people are seeking with exercise it sounds like the exact same exercise it sounds like the exact same exercise it sounds like the exact same things are happening with the cold so things are happening with the cold so things are happening with the cold so the Redundant message here seems to be the Redundant message here seems to be the Redundant message here seems to be that the more discomfort provided it's that the more discomfort provided it's that the more discomfort provided it's done safely just like with exercise the done safely just like with exercise the done safely just like with exercise the more shivering more shivering more shivering the um the more cold shock provided it's the um the more cold shock provided it's the um the more cold shock provided it's not to the extreme and stop somebody's not to the extreme and stop somebody's not to the extreme and stop somebody's heart right we can talk about thresholds heart right we can talk about thresholds heart right we can talk about thresholds for that a little bit later it sounds for that a little bit later it sounds for that a little bit later it sounds like all of that is going to set in like all of that is going to set in like all of that is going to set in motion some long-term changes that will motion some long-term changes that will motion some long-term changes that will make people feel better and will improve make people feel better and will improve make people feel better and will improve health could you just touch on a few of health could you just touch on a few of health could you just touch on a few of the longer term changes that are known the longer term changes that are known the longer term changes that are known to occur I mean I'm well aware of the to occur I mean I'm well aware of the to occur I mean I'm well aware of the study showing that uh I think it was study showing that uh I think it was study showing that uh I think it was European Journal physiology it was uh European Journal physiology it was uh European Journal physiology it was uh the European Journal physiology showing the European Journal physiology showing the European Journal physiology showing long lasting increases in catecholamines long lasting increases in catecholamines long lasting increases in catecholamines dopamine norepinephrine and epinephrine dopamine norepinephrine and epinephrine dopamine norepinephrine and epinephrine for many hours after deliberate cold for many hours after deliberate cold for many hours after deliberate cold exposure what are some of the other exposure what are some of the other exposure what are some of the other things that happen at the level of things that happen at the level of things that happen at the level of metabolism and brown fat in let's say
32:00metabolism and brown fat in let's say metabolism and brown fat in let's say the hours and day after a deliberate the hours and day after a deliberate the hours and day after a deliberate cold exposure cold exposure cold exposure as soon as you go in of course there's as soon as you go in of course there's as soon as you go in of course there's an activation but it seems like no an activation but it seems like no an activation but it seems like no you're asking for the the later outcomes you're asking for the the later outcomes you're asking for the the later outcomes like blood pressure and stuff like that like blood pressure and stuff like that like blood pressure and stuff like that is that what you mean yeah blood is that what you mean yeah blood is that what you mean yeah blood pressure but also in terms of metabolism pressure but also in terms of metabolism pressure but also in terms of metabolism I know that you know in your study you I know that you know in your study you I know that you know in your study you should and we'll talk about Brown fat in should and we'll talk about Brown fat in should and we'll talk about Brown fat in depth here in a moment but that there depth here in a moment but that there depth here in a moment but that there were changes to the brown fat that were changes to the brown fat that were changes to the brown fat that equate to changes in for instance equate to changes in for instance equate to changes in for instance people's ability to be comfortable in people's ability to be comfortable in people's ability to be comfortable in colder environments when they're not colder environments when they're not colder environments when they're not doing deliberate cold exposure or in the doing deliberate cold exposure or in the doing deliberate cold exposure or in the same way that I can um exercise on an same way that I can um exercise on an same way that I can um exercise on an exercise bike or go for a hard run but exercise bike or go for a hard run but exercise bike or go for a hard run but then if I go hiking uh with the family then if I go hiking uh with the family then if I go hiking uh with the family on Sunday and it's a steep climb I could on Sunday and it's a steep climb I could on Sunday and it's a steep climb I could do that steep climb more easily because do that steep climb more easily because do that steep climb more easily because I'm quote unquote fit as a consequence I'm quote unquote fit as a consequence I'm quote unquote fit as a consequence of the of the exercise what are what are of the of the exercise what are what are of the of the exercise what are what are some of the fitness adaptations of some of the fitness adaptations of some of the fitness adaptations of deliberate cold exposure deliberate cold exposure deliberate cold exposure yeah so what happens is that you you get yeah so what happens is that you you get yeah so what happens is that you you get adapted a little bit every time you go adapted a little bit every time you go adapted a little bit every time you go so you will like exercise get a Little so you will like exercise get a Little so you will like exercise get a Little Bit Stronger so every time you go into
33:00Bit Stronger so every time you go into Bit Stronger so every time you go into the cold water for every time you will the cold water for every time you will the cold water for every time you will be more exposed to it you will you feel be more exposed to it you will you feel be more exposed to it you will you feel more comfortable in the code so you're more comfortable in the code so you're more comfortable in the code so you're gonna you're gonna build your adaptation gonna you're gonna build your adaptation gonna you're gonna build your adaptation which happens on a metabolic level which which happens on a metabolic level which which happens on a metabolic level which is going to be the brown fat so you'll is going to be the brown fat so you'll is going to be the brown fat so you'll have more activation of your brown fat have more activation of your brown fat have more activation of your brown fat the mitochondria in the the brown fat the mitochondria in the the brown fat the mitochondria in the the brown fat cells are going to be cells are going to be cells are going to be um you have more of those and they will um you have more of those and they will um you have more of those and they will be more efficient at heating you up be more efficient at heating you up be more efficient at heating you up because it expects the body expects you because it expects the body expects you because it expects the body expects you to to do this again so you are prepared to to do this again so you are prepared to to do this again so you are prepared in a way the capillaries in your skin is in a way the capillaries in your skin is in a way the capillaries in your skin is also it will also become better at like also it will also become better at like also it will also become better at like constricting so you will have a better constricting so you will have a better constricting so you will have a better Shield of your body to prepare you for Shield of your body to prepare you for Shield of your body to prepare you for the next time so you will be become the next time so you will be become the next time so you will be become better at going into the cold water in better at going into the cold water in better at going into the cold water in that way so the body makes this that way so the body makes this that way so the body makes this mechanism and changes your body in a way mechanism and changes your body in a way mechanism and changes your body in a way so you can expose yourself to the next so you can expose yourself to the next so you can expose yourself to the next time right and and also you will have um time right and and also you will have um time right and and also you will have um also um your um stress response will also um your um stress response will also um your um stress response will also be subside a bit so you have a less
34:00also be subside a bit so you have a less also be subside a bit so you have a less increase of your catecholamines increase of your catecholamines increase of your catecholamines um with time um with time um with time with time also you have because of this with time also you have because of this with time also you have because of this activation of your brown fat or your activation of your brown fat or your activation of your brown fat or your muscles you have an increase in them in muscles you have an increase in them in muscles you have an increase in them in in your metabolism which will then make in your metabolism which will then make in your metabolism which will then make your insulin sensitivity better and this your insulin sensitivity better and this your insulin sensitivity better and this is shown in in studies for example um is shown in in studies for example um is shown in in studies for example um there's this interesting study I found there's this interesting study I found there's this interesting study I found just before I I started my PhD which was just before I I started my PhD which was just before I I started my PhD which was from um keeper stoma from um keeper stoma from um keeper stoma um at L from 2016 where they measured um um at L from 2016 where they measured um um at L from 2016 where they measured um metabolism metabolism metabolism and not in not on Brown fat but they and not in not on Brown fat but they and not in not on Brown fat but they measured insulin sensitivity in middle measured insulin sensitivity in middle measured insulin sensitivity in middle age men and women during one winter age men and women during one winter age men and women during one winter swimming season so they were not very swimming season so they were not very swimming season so they were not very young like they were in my study but young like they were in my study but young like they were in my study but they were they were middle aged and I they were they were middle aged and I they were they were middle aged and I think this is very interesting so they think this is very interesting so they think this is very interesting so they during these four or five months they during these four or five months they during these four or five months they were winter swimming they saw that they were winter swimming they saw that they were winter swimming they saw that they had a lower blood pressure after the had a lower blood pressure after the had a lower blood pressure after the season and they had a lower heart rate season and they had a lower heart rate season and they had a lower heart rate and they also so that they have a better
35:00and they also so that they have a better and they also so that they have a better insulin sensitivity and I think that is insulin sensitivity and I think that is insulin sensitivity and I think that is very interesting because if you can have very interesting because if you can have very interesting because if you can have a better insulin sensitivity you can a better insulin sensitivity you can a better insulin sensitivity you can prevent lifestyle diseases so and with prevent lifestyle diseases so and with prevent lifestyle diseases so and with lower blood pressure which is a very lower blood pressure which is a very lower blood pressure which is a very strong outcome also for selling how much strong outcome also for selling how much strong outcome also for selling how much inflammation you have in the body and inflammation you have in the body and inflammation you have in the body and because it didn't measure Brown fat I because it didn't measure Brown fat I because it didn't measure Brown fat I figured that it could be that was the figured that it could be that was the figured that it could be that was the missing link that was the one of the missing link that was the one of the missing link that was the one of the explanations to why we see this um less explanations to why we see this um less explanations to why we see this um less inflammation in the body inflammation in the body inflammation in the body so um the longer outcomes the long-term so um the longer outcomes the long-term so um the longer outcomes the long-term outcomes could be that you lower your outcomes could be that you lower your outcomes could be that you lower your blood pressure and have a lower heart blood pressure and have a lower heart blood pressure and have a lower heart rate and you also rate and you also rate and you also um have a better insulin sensitivity and um have a better insulin sensitivity and um have a better insulin sensitivity and better glucose balance but that was better glucose balance but that was better glucose balance but that was shown it that is shown in my study I'd shown it that is shown in my study I'd shown it that is shown in my study I'd like to take a quick break and like to take a quick break and like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors athletic acknowledge one of our sponsors athletic acknowledge one of our sponsors athletic greens athletic greens now called ag-1 greens athletic greens now called ag-1 greens athletic greens now called ag-1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational that covers all of your foundational that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs I've been taking
36:00nutritional needs I've been taking nutritional needs I've been taking athletic green since 2012 so I'm athletic green since 2012 so I'm athletic green since 2012 so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the delighted that they're sponsoring the delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast the reason I started taking podcast the reason I started taking podcast the reason I started taking athletic greens and the reason I still athletic greens and the reason I still athletic greens and the reason I still take athletic greens once are usually take athletic greens once are usually take athletic greens once are usually twice a day is that it gets to be the twice a day is that it gets to be the twice a day is that it gets to be the probiotics that I need for gut health probiotics that I need for gut health probiotics that I need for gut health our gut is very important it's populated our gut is very important it's populated our gut is very important it's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with by gut microbiota that communicate with by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain the immune system and the brain the immune system and the brain the immune system and basically all the biological systems of basically all the biological systems of basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our our body to strongly impact our our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health immediate and long-term health immediate and long-term health and those probiotics and athletic greens and those probiotics and athletic greens and those probiotics and athletic greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic are optimal and vital for microbiotic are optimal and vital for microbiotic health in addition athletic greens health in addition athletic greens health in addition athletic greens contains a number of adaptogens vitamins contains a number of adaptogens vitamins contains a number of adaptogens vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of and minerals that make sure that all of and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are my foundational nutritional needs are my foundational nutritional needs are met and it tastes great if you'd like to met and it tastes great if you'd like to met and it tastes great if you'd like to try athletic greens you can go to try athletic greens you can go to try athletic greens you can go to athleticgreens.com huberman and they'll athleticgreens.com huberman and they'll athleticgreens.com huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that give you five free travel packs that give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up athletic make it really easy to mix up athletic make it really easy to mix up athletic greens while you're on the road in the greens while you're on the road in the greens while you're on the road in the car on the plane Etc and they'll give car on the plane Etc and they'll give car on the plane Etc and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin d3k2 you a year's supply of vitamin d3k2 you a year's supply of vitamin d3k2 again that's athleticgreens.com huberman again that's athleticgreens.com huberman again that's athleticgreens.com huberman to get the five free travel packs and
37:00to get the five free travel packs and to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 and we'll get back to the insulin we'll get back to the insulin we'll get back to the insulin sensitivity and glucose balance that's a sensitivity and glucose balance that's a sensitivity and glucose balance that's a in an impressive list of benefits in an impressive list of benefits in an impressive list of benefits um you know blood pressure of course um you know blood pressure of course um you know blood pressure of course most people are aware of blood pressure most people are aware of blood pressure most people are aware of blood pressure and what it is it's what they measure and what it is it's what they measure and what it is it's what they measure when we go to the doctor and it's not when we go to the doctor and it's not when we go to the doctor and it's not very sexy nowadays you know blood very sexy nowadays you know blood very sexy nowadays you know blood pressure you know blood pressure it's pressure you know blood pressure it's pressure you know blood pressure it's not you know people want to hear about not you know people want to hear about not you know people want to hear about the inflammatorium and the microbiome the inflammatorium and the microbiome the inflammatorium and the microbiome and all of that stuff is really and all of that stuff is really and all of that stuff is really interesting but I think that blood interesting but I think that blood interesting but I think that blood pressure doesn't get enough pressure doesn't get enough pressure doesn't get enough attention attention attention um and we have spoken to on this podcast um and we have spoken to on this podcast um and we have spoken to on this podcast to Dr Peter attia who um is an expert in to Dr Peter attia who um is an expert in to Dr Peter attia who um is an expert in longevity and health span and things of longevity and health span and things of longevity and health span and things of that sort and and I was surprised to that sort and and I was surprised to that sort and and I was surprised to learn again I shouldn't have been learn again I shouldn't have been learn again I shouldn't have been surprised that the number one reason surprised that the number one reason surprised that the number one reason people die worldwide is cerebral people die worldwide is cerebral people die worldwide is cerebral vascular disease and cardiovascular vascular disease and cardiovascular vascular disease and cardiovascular disease and there are basically three disease and there are basically three disease and there are basically three things on the list of things to address things on the list of things to address things on the list of things to address one is not smoking or vaping by the way one is not smoking or vaping by the way one is not smoking or vaping by the way uh not to get there are a few other
38:00uh not to get there are a few other uh not to get there are a few other things related to blood markers apob and things related to blood markers apob and things related to blood markers apob and things of that sort but then the big one things of that sort but then the big one things of that sort but then the big one is blood pressure and so it's it's is blood pressure and so it's it's is blood pressure and so it's it's interesting because we don't think about interesting because we don't think about interesting because we don't think about blood pressure that much anymore blood pressure that much anymore blood pressure that much anymore um as a as the kind of people interested um as a as the kind of people interested um as a as the kind of people interested in health optimization and health but in health optimization and health but in health optimization and health but blood pressure is so vital to control so blood pressure is so vital to control so blood pressure is so vital to control so it's wonderful to hear that deliberate it's wonderful to hear that deliberate it's wonderful to hear that deliberate cold exposure is one way to control cold exposure is one way to control cold exposure is one way to control blood pressure I'm guessing in concert blood pressure I'm guessing in concert blood pressure I'm guessing in concert with other forms of exercise yeah um with other forms of exercise yeah um with other forms of exercise yeah um let's talk about Brown fat and um if you let's talk about Brown fat and um if you let's talk about Brown fat and um if you if you're willing I'd love to drill into if you're willing I'd love to drill into if you're willing I'd love to drill into Brown fat at a deep level Brown fat at a deep level Brown fat at a deep level um again my understanding of this is is um again my understanding of this is is um again my understanding of this is is far more Elementary than yours far more Elementary than yours far more Elementary than yours obviously you're the expert my obviously you're the expert my obviously you're the expert my understanding about Brown fat understanding about Brown fat understanding about Brown fat is that it's located in specific areas is that it's located in specific areas is that it's located in specific areas of our body of our body of our body uh maybe more widespread than when I uh maybe more widespread than when I uh maybe more widespread than when I learned in school I thought it was I was learned in school I thought it was I was learned in school I thought it was I was taught it was just at the clavicles in taught it was just at the clavicles in taught it was just at the clavicles in the back of the neck and upper back but the back of the neck and upper back but the back of the neck and upper back but who knows I learned that there's more of who knows I learned that there's more of who knows I learned that there's more of it when we're children it when we're children it when we're children maybe more distributed throughout our
39:00maybe more distributed throughout our maybe more distributed throughout our body body body and that it's rich in mitochondria but and that it's rich in mitochondria but and that it's rich in mitochondria but what is so special about the brown fat what is so special about the brown fat what is so special about the brown fat like if we could just go into the like if we could just go into the like if we could just go into the biology of brown fat a little bit what biology of brown fat a little bit what biology of brown fat a little bit what does it look like you've measured it in does it look like you've measured it in does it look like you've measured it in human subjects where is it distributed human subjects where is it distributed human subjects where is it distributed really can it expand its distribution really can it expand its distribution really can it expand its distribution can we activate and expand the amount of can we activate and expand the amount of can we activate and expand the amount of brown fat as adults and um for those of brown fat as adults and um for those of brown fat as adults and um for those of you that are cringing already thinking you that are cringing already thinking you that are cringing already thinking we're talking about getting fatter it's we're talking about getting fatter it's we're talking about getting fatter it's quite the opposite we're talking about quite the opposite we're talking about quite the opposite we're talking about not subcutaneous fat but fat located not subcutaneous fat but fat located not subcutaneous fat but fat located around the the organs but please educate around the the organs but please educate around the the organs but please educate me um tell me where I'm wrong and expand me um tell me where I'm wrong and expand me um tell me where I'm wrong and expand my knowledge on Brown fat okay yeah my knowledge on Brown fat okay yeah my knowledge on Brown fat okay yeah you're not wrong but um it's definitely you're not wrong but um it's definitely you're not wrong but um it's definitely it's true that there are more locations it's true that there are more locations it's true that there are more locations of the brown fat the than we previously of the brown fat the than we previously of the brown fat the than we previously thought thought thought um there's this very nice study from um there's this very nice study from um there's this very nice study from 2017 by Leitner L where they had made 2017 by Leitner L where they had made 2017 by Leitner L where they had made these opacities uh overlays of um their these opacities uh overlays of um their these opacities uh overlays of um their subjects but you can see where in the
40:00subjects but you can see where in the subjects but you can see where in the body do we have brown fat and where can body do we have brown fat and where can body do we have brown fat and where can we grow more round fat we grow more round fat we grow more round fat um so to say um so the brown fat is is um so to say um so the brown fat is is um so to say um so the brown fat is is very plastic so it means that it can it very plastic so it means that it can it very plastic so it means that it can it can grow and they can decrease and this can grow and they can decrease and this can grow and they can decrease and this is proven in in studies where we have is proven in in studies where we have is proven in in studies where we have seen um seen um seen um um people with a fair cryocytoma it's um people with a fair cryocytoma it's um people with a fair cryocytoma it's like a very specific cancer type where like a very specific cancer type where like a very specific cancer type where people where from the 70s where we can people where from the 70s where we can people where from the 70s where we can see that if they have this specific kind see that if they have this specific kind see that if they have this specific kind of a cancer type of a cancer type of a cancer type um they have a they have this tumor on um they have a they have this tumor on um they have a they have this tumor on the adrenal gland so they have like a the adrenal gland so they have like a the adrenal gland so they have like a huge increase in NOAA adrenaline and huge increase in NOAA adrenaline and huge increase in NOAA adrenaline and because of that you don't have this because of that you don't have this because of that you don't have this continuous activation of the brown fat continuous activation of the brown fat continuous activation of the brown fat and they have grown a lot of brown fat and they have grown a lot of brown fat and they have grown a lot of brown fat in the whole body or abdominal where in the whole body or abdominal where in the whole body or abdominal where it's located in these six different it's located in these six different it's located in these six different places but it is just like very much places but it is just like very much places but it is just like very much compared to like normal people compared to like normal people compared to like normal people um and what they then see what we um and what they then see what we um and what they then see what we learned from this study is that brown learned from this study is that brown learned from this study is that brown fat can apparently grow if you have an
41:00fat can apparently grow if you have an fat can apparently grow if you have an increase in no adrenaline in the body increase in no adrenaline in the body increase in no adrenaline in the body it's not like you want that because when it's not like you want that because when it's not like you want that because when that happens you have a high blood that happens you have a high blood that happens you have a high blood pressure you don't want it chronically pressure you don't want it chronically pressure you don't want it chronically right you just want it on like a short right you just want it on like a short right you just want it on like a short amount of time and then it can grow for amount of time and then it can grow for amount of time and then it can grow for a bit but you don't want it chronically a bit but you don't want it chronically a bit but you don't want it chronically of course not but because it it of course not but because it it of course not but because it it activates also your sympathetic nervous activates also your sympathetic nervous activates also your sympathetic nervous system so they have also showed they system so they have also showed they system so they have also showed they have high blood pressure they had have high blood pressure they had have high blood pressure they had they lost a lot of weight of course they lost a lot of weight of course they lost a lot of weight of course because this is activating your because this is activating your because this is activating your metabolism so they they found luckily metabolism so they they found luckily metabolism so they they found luckily that when they removed this benign a that when they removed this benign a that when they removed this benign a tumor uh that uh the brown fat tumor uh that uh the brown fat tumor uh that uh the brown fat um decreases again to normal size and um decreases again to normal size and um decreases again to normal size and they gain weight again and they had they gain weight again and they had they gain weight again and they had normal blood pressure so the story ends normal blood pressure so the story ends normal blood pressure so the story ends well but it's kind of like proof of well but it's kind of like proof of well but it's kind of like proof of concept of the brown fat can actually concept of the brown fat can actually concept of the brown fat can actually grow so it's plastic in its in its way grow so it's plastic in its in its way grow so it's plastic in its in its way of like it can grow and it can decrease of like it can grow and it can decrease of like it can grow and it can decrease again so that's very good good studies again so that's very good good studies again so that's very good good studies to to see what what the body is capable to to see what what the body is capable to to see what what the body is capable of but we don't of course want all that
42:00of but we don't of course want all that of but we don't of course want all that brown fat we just want it to be um we brown fat we just want it to be um we brown fat we just want it to be um we just want to keep it actually and keep just want to keep it actually and keep just want to keep it actually and keep it activated because what we see in it activated because what we see in it activated because what we see in studies is also that after the age of 40 studies is also that after the age of 40 studies is also that after the age of 40 and people and people and people um Studies have shown that there is an um Studies have shown that there is an um Studies have shown that there is an association with having less brown fat association with having less brown fat association with having less brown fat but increased obesity so of course we we but increased obesity so of course we we but increased obesity so of course we we don't know yet whether a brown fat don't know yet whether a brown fat don't know yet whether a brown fat decreases with Ace and therefore before decreases with Ace and therefore before decreases with Ace and therefore before we get obese or we get obese and we get obese or we get obese and we get obese or we get obese and therefore we have less brown fat but as therefore we have less brown fat but as therefore we have less brown fat but as brown fat is an insulin sensitive organ brown fat is an insulin sensitive organ brown fat is an insulin sensitive organ in our body and we get obese just like in our body and we get obese just like in our body and we get obese just like the muscles get less sensitive insulin the muscles get less sensitive insulin the muscles get less sensitive insulin sensitive the brown fat does as well and sensitive the brown fat does as well and sensitive the brown fat does as well and therefore it maybe decreases it could be therefore it maybe decreases it could be therefore it maybe decreases it could be a theory that I think could be one of a theory that I think could be one of a theory that I think could be one of the reasons why we don't see that much the reasons why we don't see that much the reasons why we don't see that much Brown fat in in elderly people some have Brown fat in in elderly people some have Brown fat in in elderly people some have a lot especially people working outside a lot especially people working outside a lot especially people working outside there are studies showing this who are there are studies showing this who are there are studies showing this who are people who work outside do physical work
43:00people who work outside do physical work people who work outside do physical work outside farmers and yeah interesting outside farmers and yeah interesting outside farmers and yeah interesting yeah yeah thanks post them so to it so yeah yeah thanks post them so to it so yeah yeah thanks post them so to it so they'll just keep it in that way it's they'll just keep it in that way it's they'll just keep it in that way it's um and I suppose we should um clarify um and I suppose we should um clarify um and I suppose we should um clarify for people in case they don't know that for people in case they don't know that for people in case they don't know that insulin sensitivity is a very good thing insulin sensitivity is a very good thing insulin sensitivity is a very good thing you want that you want your cells to be you want that you want your cells to be you want that you want your cells to be sensitive to insulin insulin sensitive to insulin insulin sensitive to insulin insulin insensitivity is type 2 diabetes and is insensitivity is type 2 diabetes and is insensitivity is type 2 diabetes and is associated with obesity associated with obesity associated with obesity um so just a point of clarification um so just a point of clarification um so just a point of clarification there there there uh yeah it's interesting to me I I I uh yeah it's interesting to me I I I uh yeah it's interesting to me I I I usually work out at home but I go to a usually work out at home but I go to a usually work out at home but I go to a gym once or twice a week if I can gym once or twice a week if I can gym once or twice a week if I can because it's good if I see uh the because it's good if I see uh the because it's good if I see uh the outside world outside world outside world um and there are a few individuals at um and there are a few individuals at um and there are a few individuals at the the gym who are they're not the the gym who are they're not the the gym who are they're not particularly large or muscular particularly large or muscular particularly large or muscular um but they are incredibly um but they are incredibly um but they are incredibly um lean and their posture is great um lean and their posture is great um lean and their posture is great presumably from the musculoskeletal work presumably from the musculoskeletal work presumably from the musculoskeletal work um and they they're in their 70s and 80s um and they they're in their 70s and 80s um and they they're in their 70s and 80s I mean it's remarkable right and um and
44:00I mean it's remarkable right and um and I mean it's remarkable right and um and I know all the telltale signs of hormone I know all the telltale signs of hormone I know all the telltale signs of hormone augmentation I'm very good at spotting augmentation I'm very good at spotting augmentation I'm very good at spotting that there are a few telltale signs I've that there are a few telltale signs I've that there are a few telltale signs I've talked about this on other podcasts and talked about this on other podcasts and talked about this on other podcasts and they're not that's not why they're they're not that's not why they're they're not that's not why they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're um they're fit they're they're clearly um they're fit they're they're clearly um they're fit they're they're clearly of that look and you see this written of that look and you see this written of that look and you see this written outside the gym too of course for people outside the gym too of course for people outside the gym too of course for people that look like they've done a lot of that look like they've done a lot of that look like they've done a lot of physical labor their whole life yeah physical labor their whole life yeah physical labor their whole life yeah they're just moving a lot they have they're just moving a lot they have they're just moving a lot they have strong hands and features and they're strong hands and features and they're strong hands and features and they're um and they're not necessarily except um and they're not necessarily except um and they're not necessarily except aggressively lean but you can tell that aggressively lean but you can tell that aggressively lean but you can tell that they've been using their musculoskeletal they've been using their musculoskeletal they've been using their musculoskeletal system and I like to talk to these system and I like to talk to these system and I like to talk to these people and ask them like not what are people and ask them like not what are people and ask them like not what are you doing now for your workout but what you doing now for your workout but what you doing now for your workout but what what did you grow up doing you know and what did you grow up doing you know and what did you grow up doing you know and I would say and obviously I haven't run I would say and obviously I haven't run I would say and obviously I haven't run statistics on this but more than 75 statistics on this but more than 75 statistics on this but more than 75 percent of them respond that they grew percent of them respond that they grew percent of them respond that they grew up on a farm up on a farm up on a farm or that they did some sort of or that they did some sort of or that they did some sort of manual labor or were a postman or a manual labor or were a postman or a manual labor or were a postman or a postwoman or doing something where they postwoman or doing something where they postwoman or doing something where they moved a lot for their early years and moved a lot for their early years and moved a lot for their early years and throughout middle age and most of them
45:00throughout middle age and most of them throughout middle age and most of them are now in retirement but some of them are now in retirement but some of them are now in retirement but some of them are still working and they all still are still working and they all still are still working and they all still moving a lot so moving a lot so moving a lot so the relationship between shiver and the relationship between shiver and the relationship between shiver and brown fat makes sense to me but is it brown fat makes sense to me but is it brown fat makes sense to me but is it the case that as we're just moving the case that as we're just moving the case that as we're just moving around I've heard of neat non-exercise around I've heard of neat non-exercise around I've heard of neat non-exercise induced thermogenesis so if we're just induced thermogenesis so if we're just induced thermogenesis so if we're just moving around that we are activating moving around that we are activating moving around that we are activating Brown fat or does there need to be this Brown fat or does there need to be this Brown fat or does there need to be this stressor does there need to be shiver stressor does there need to be shiver stressor does there need to be shiver and a cold stimulus or a heat stimulus and a cold stimulus or a heat stimulus and a cold stimulus or a heat stimulus to activate the brown fat in other words to activate the brown fat in other words to activate the brown fat in other words is just staying active enough or do we is just staying active enough or do we is just staying active enough or do we need to do some sort of temperature uh need to do some sort of temperature uh need to do some sort of temperature uh shock type thing like deliberate cold shock type thing like deliberate cold shock type thing like deliberate cold exposure yeah I think that is a really exposure yeah I think that is a really exposure yeah I think that is a really good question because how how also why good question because how how also why good question because how how also why do we have this tissue then if it's if do we have this tissue then if it's if do we have this tissue then if it's if it has to be extreme then you can it has to be extreme then you can it has to be extreme then you can question what what do we need this question what what do we need this question what what do we need this tissue for but it seems that you can tissue for but it seems that you can tissue for but it seems that you can activate the brown fat with just a activate the brown fat with just a activate the brown fat with just a little bit of exposure to to cold so little bit of exposure to to cold so little bit of exposure to to cold so cold is the most potent stressor cold is the most potent stressor cold is the most potent stressor activator of our Brown fat because it's
46:00activator of our Brown fat because it's activator of our Brown fat because it's our temperature regulating organ in our our temperature regulating organ in our our temperature regulating organ in our body so first responder to that so the body so first responder to that so the body so first responder to that so the muscles will be a little bit too late uh muscles will be a little bit too late uh muscles will be a little bit too late uh and therefore we have maybe these two and therefore we have maybe these two and therefore we have maybe these two kind of tissues so actually just kind of tissues so actually just kind of tissues so actually just exposing yourself or a hand actually exposing yourself or a hand actually exposing yourself or a hand actually just to cold water so Studies have shown just to cold water so Studies have shown just to cold water so Studies have shown um that if you just put your hand in um that if you just put your hand in um that if you just put your hand in cold water not that you're going to cold water not that you're going to cold water not that you're going to going to do that all day or or every day going to do that all day or or every day going to do that all day or or every day or anything it's not it's it's not or anything it's not it's it's not or anything it's not it's it's not something you have to do but it just something you have to do but it just something you have to do but it just shows that you can activate your brown shows that you can activate your brown shows that you can activate your brown fat just by getting a temperature change fat just by getting a temperature change fat just by getting a temperature change on your skin so you can go outside and on your skin so you can go outside and on your skin so you can go outside and t-shirts that's why also we were just t-shirts that's why also we were just t-shirts that's why also we were just talking about well people who works talking about well people who works talking about well people who works outside or move a lot or get out in and outside or move a lot or get out in and outside or move a lot or get out in and out of it like changing the temperature out of it like changing the temperature out of it like changing the temperature of their body all the time they will of their body all the time they will of their body all the time they will have more Brown fat and activating that have more Brown fat and activating that have more Brown fat and activating that is going to keep your metabolism higher is going to keep your metabolism higher is going to keep your metabolism higher and your insulin sensitivity is that it and your insulin sensitivity is that it and your insulin sensitivity is that it has also shown this so the brown fat can has also shown this so the brown fat can has also shown this so the brown fat can be activated as soon as you just change be activated as soon as you just change be activated as soon as you just change your temperature in the skin so going your temperature in the skin so going your temperature in the skin so going outside in a t-shirt wearing cooling
47:00outside in a t-shirt wearing cooling outside in a t-shirt wearing cooling vests also Studies have shown this for vests also Studies have shown this for vests also Studies have shown this for 10 days it's gonna also grow your your 10 days it's gonna also grow your your 10 days it's gonna also grow your your brown fat so you can get more Brown fat brown fat so you can get more Brown fat brown fat so you can get more Brown fat if you expose yourself to the cold you if you expose yourself to the cold you if you expose yourself to the cold you don't have to start in a cold shower you don't have to start in a cold shower you don't have to start in a cold shower you don't have to start in a cold plunge if don't have to start in a cold plunge if don't have to start in a cold plunge if you're not really ready for that yet but you're not really ready for that yet but you're not really ready for that yet but just exposing yourself to the wind has just exposing yourself to the wind has just exposing yourself to the wind has also shown to activate your brown fat or also shown to activate your brown fat or also shown to activate your brown fat or if you don't want to be like in this if you don't want to be like in this if you don't want to be like in this awake state then you can also just sleep awake state then you can also just sleep awake state then you can also just sleep in the cold and you won't notice it that in the cold and you won't notice it that in the cold and you won't notice it that much maybe but Studies have shown that much maybe but Studies have shown that much maybe but Studies have shown that if you sleep in 19 degrees Celsius and if you sleep in 19 degrees Celsius and if you sleep in 19 degrees Celsius and then you will activate your brown fat then you will activate your brown fat then you will activate your brown fat and you will grow your ground fat so you and you will grow your ground fat so you and you will grow your ground fat so you have more of of it so this is in very have more of of it so this is in very have more of of it so this is in very nice studies nice studies nice studies um um from Hansen Adele from 2017 showed that from Hansen Adele from 2017 showed that from Hansen Adele from 2017 showed that a group of subjects who slept in a room a group of subjects who slept in a room a group of subjects who slept in a room at 24 degrees and then they made this at 24 degrees and then they made this at 24 degrees and then they made this Pet City scannings to see how much Brown Pet City scannings to see how much Brown Pet City scannings to see how much Brown fat do they have from the beginning so
48:00fat do they have from the beginning so fat do they have from the beginning so what we call Baseline then they measured what we call Baseline then they measured what we call Baseline then they measured again after a month of sleeping in 19 again after a month of sleeping in 19 again after a month of sleeping in 19 degrees and they saw I think it's degrees and they saw I think it's degrees and they saw I think it's remarkable just one month at 19 degrees remarkable just one month at 19 degrees remarkable just one month at 19 degrees sleeping there they had a duet on and sleeping there they had a duet on and sleeping there they had a duet on and they were still had clothes on when they they were still had clothes on when they they were still had clothes on when they were sleeping so they're under a cover were sleeping so they're under a cover were sleeping so they're under a cover under under a bit yeah yeah the subjects under under a bit yeah yeah the subjects under under a bit yeah yeah the subjects were sleeping at 19 degrees for one were sleeping at 19 degrees for one were sleeping at 19 degrees for one month had increased is in insulin month had increased is in insulin month had increased is in insulin sensitivity the next month they stepped sensitivity the next month they stepped sensitivity the next month they stepped at 24 degrees they measured this again at 24 degrees they measured this again at 24 degrees they measured this again and then they had decreased actually a and then they had decreased actually a and then they had decreased actually a little bit and then they slept at 27 little bit and then they slept at 27 little bit and then they slept at 27 degrees so quite warm room actually for degrees so quite warm room actually for degrees so quite warm room actually for for the fourth month um and they saw a for the fourth month um and they saw a for the fourth month um and they saw a even less activation of the brown fat even less activation of the brown fat even less activation of the brown fat and also insulin sensitivity so it seems and also insulin sensitivity so it seems and also insulin sensitivity so it seems that you can expose yourself and pretty that you can expose yourself and pretty that you can expose yourself and pretty rapidly the brown fat will respond to rapidly the brown fat will respond to rapidly the brown fat will respond to this because it's so sensitive to no this because it's so sensitive to no this because it's so sensitive to no adrenaline right so if you keep exposing adrenaline right so if you keep exposing adrenaline right so if you keep exposing yourself to a little bit of coal you yourself to a little bit of coal you yourself to a little bit of coal you will also get a little bit adapted to it will also get a little bit adapted to it will also get a little bit adapted to it but that's because the brown fat but that's because the brown fat
49:00but that's because the brown fat um has grown these more mitochondria in um has grown these more mitochondria in um has grown these more mitochondria in the cells so these small energy Fabrics the cells so these small energy Fabrics the cells so these small energy Fabrics that's going to activate the cells and that's going to activate the cells and that's going to activate the cells and that's going to take up glucose and fat that's going to take up glucose and fat that's going to take up glucose and fat from the fatty acids from the from the fatty acids from the from the fatty acids from the bloodstream to keep the thermogenesis up bloodstream to keep the thermogenesis up bloodstream to keep the thermogenesis up and that's going to clear up some sugar and that's going to clear up some sugar and that's going to clear up some sugar and it's going to click so in the in the and it's going to click so in the in the and it's going to click so in the in the bloodstream and some some fat as well so bloodstream and some some fat as well so bloodstream and some some fat as well so the brown fat can in that way decrease the brown fat can in that way decrease the brown fat can in that way decrease our unhealthy fat which is the white fat our unhealthy fat which is the white fat our unhealthy fat which is the white fat and the white fat is what we don't want and the white fat is what we don't want and the white fat is what we don't want too much of but we still need some of too much of but we still need some of too much of but we still need some of course course course and it's our energy storage so it's very and it's our energy storage so it's very and it's our energy storage so it's very important that it's there we just don't important that it's there we just don't important that it's there we just don't need a lot of it so on our thighs and need a lot of it so on our thighs and need a lot of it so on our thighs and also around our inner organs that's also around our inner organs that's also around our inner organs that's where it's it's located so if we can where it's it's located so if we can where it's it's located so if we can have activation of the brown fat just by have activation of the brown fat just by have activation of the brown fat just by going out in the cold and just by going out in the cold and just by going out in the cold and just by sleeping in a cold room or if you are sleeping in a cold room or if you are sleeping in a cold room or if you are have courage for it you can go out and have courage for it you can go out and have courage for it you can go out and expose yourself in a coat plunge expose yourself in a coat plunge expose yourself in a coat plunge um cold showers is also going to do the um cold showers is also going to do the um cold showers is also going to do the trick so you can do different variations trick so you can do different variations trick so you can do different variations of this just exposing yourself to
50:00of this just exposing yourself to of this just exposing yourself to various temperatures it's going to various temperatures it's going to various temperatures it's going to activate the brown fat because it was activate the brown fat because it was activate the brown fat because it was involved to keep us in a perfect involved to keep us in a perfect involved to keep us in a perfect homeostatic balance regarding homeostatic balance regarding homeostatic balance regarding temperature so to Keep Us Alive temperature so to Keep Us Alive temperature so to Keep Us Alive incredible I want to just get a incredible I want to just get a incredible I want to just get a clarification around this 19 degrees clarification around this 19 degrees clarification around this 19 degrees Celsius room that they're sleeping in so Celsius room that they're sleeping in so Celsius room that they're sleeping in so they're under a comforter a duvet and um they're under a comforter a duvet and um they're under a comforter a duvet and um and you mentioned they had clothes on and you mentioned they had clothes on and you mentioned they had clothes on the room is 19 degrees Celsius but the the room is 19 degrees Celsius but the the room is 19 degrees Celsius but the temperature underneath their blanket temperature underneath their blanket temperature underneath their blanket might not be 19 degrees Celsius so might not be 19 degrees Celsius so might not be 19 degrees Celsius so presumably it's the cold on their face presumably it's the cold on their face presumably it's the cold on their face that's activating uh the the increase in that's activating uh the the increase in that's activating uh the the increase in brown fat that was observed is that is brown fat that was observed is that is brown fat that was observed is that is that a reasonable expectation I I think that a reasonable expectation I I think that a reasonable expectation I I think so yeah because it's you have so many so yeah because it's you have so many so yeah because it's you have so many co-receptors in your face so it's co-receptors in your face so it's co-receptors in your face so it's actually it's enough and I think it actually it's enough and I think it actually it's enough and I think it corresponds very well with the studies corresponds very well with the studies corresponds very well with the studies showing that you can activate the brown showing that you can activate the brown showing that you can activate the brown fat just by putting a hand into a bucket fat just by putting a hand into a bucket fat just by putting a hand into a bucket of cold water and I did this experiment of cold water and I did this experiment of cold water and I did this experiment myself in in my studies just to see how myself in in my studies just to see how myself in in my studies just to see how well did they respond to cold water so
51:00well did they respond to cold water so well did they respond to cold water so it was a four degrees Celsius cold water it was a four degrees Celsius cold water it was a four degrees Celsius cold water for four minutes and then I just for four minutes and then I just for four minutes and then I just measured blood pressure on heart rate to measured blood pressure on heart rate to measured blood pressure on heart rate to see do they have like an activation of see do they have like an activation of see do they have like an activation of this I actually also measured the brown this I actually also measured the brown this I actually also measured the brown fat during this cold exposure for four fat during this cold exposure for four fat during this cold exposure for four minutes with an infrared thermography minutes with an infrared thermography minutes with an infrared thermography camera to see can I see that the brown camera to see can I see that the brown camera to see can I see that the brown fat is activated and just just to go fat is activated and just just to go fat is activated and just just to go back to the location of the brown fat so back to the location of the brown fat so back to the location of the brown fat so usually you cannot really see activation usually you cannot really see activation usually you cannot really see activation of your brown fat because it's located of your brown fat because it's located of your brown fat because it's located centrally in your around your central centrally in your around your central centrally in your around your central nervous system nervous system nervous system um and and the biggest Depot as you um and and the biggest Depot as you um and and the biggest Depot as you mentioned before is up here under the mentioned before is up here under the mentioned before is up here under the clavicular bones so clavicular bones so clavicular bones so um and very close to the Skin's surface um and very close to the Skin's surface um and very close to the Skin's surface and because it's so close to the skin and because it's so close to the skin and because it's so close to the skin surface I could measure it with this surface I could measure it with this surface I could measure it with this very expensive camera yeah and it's not very expensive camera yeah and it's not very expensive camera yeah and it's not very feasible for people to go home and very feasible for people to go home and very feasible for people to go home and do this don't because it takes a lot of do this don't because it takes a lot of do this don't because it takes a lot of practice I can tell practice I can tell practice I can tell um but we measured the brown fat with
52:00um but we measured the brown fat with um but we measured the brown fat with this um and and I could see that after a this um and and I could see that after a this um and and I could see that after a few minutes that the activation was few minutes that the activation was few minutes that the activation was there an increase in temperature arose there an increase in temperature arose there an increase in temperature arose from that activation just four minutes from that activation just four minutes from that activation just four minutes so it's very rapid and I'm also measured so it's very rapid and I'm also measured so it's very rapid and I'm also measured in my study how deep was the brown fat in my study how deep was the brown fat in my study how deep was the brown fat under your skin so it's very close to under your skin so it's very close to under your skin so it's very close to the surface which also shows that it it the surface which also shows that it it the surface which also shows that it it needs to be there to heat you up and needs to be there to heat you up and needs to be there to heat you up and heat your inner organs well I'm heat your inner organs well I'm heat your inner organs well I'm delighted to hear all of this and I'll delighted to hear all of this and I'll delighted to hear all of this and I'll tell you why one is by way of anecdote I tell you why one is by way of anecdote I tell you why one is by way of anecdote I mentioned a little bit earlier that as mentioned a little bit earlier that as mentioned a little bit earlier that as an undergraduate I worked in a lab that an undergraduate I worked in a lab that an undergraduate I worked in a lab that studied thermogenesis and we were doing studied thermogenesis and we were doing studied thermogenesis and we were doing that in animals but we had this room that in animals but we had this room that in animals but we had this room that was very cold the whole room was that was very cold the whole room was that was very cold the whole room was called the guy who I worked for at the called the guy who I worked for at the called the guy who I worked for at the time and I'm Harry Carlisle is a very time and I'm Harry Carlisle is a very time and I'm Harry Carlisle is a very accomplished physiologist he came from accomplished physiologist he came from accomplished physiologist he came from this lineage I don't know if this this lineage I don't know if this this lineage I don't know if this literature is still um discussed much literature is still um discussed much literature is still um discussed much but it's a beautiful literature but it's a beautiful literature but it's a beautiful literature um from Rothwell and stock they were the um from Rothwell and stock they were the um from Rothwell and stock they were the ones who discovered um non-exercise ones who discovered um non-exercise ones who discovered um non-exercise induced thermogenesis the fact that induced thermogenesis the fact that induced thermogenesis the fact that people bounce who bounce their legs a people bounce who bounce their legs a people bounce who bounce their legs a lot and move around a lot and have a lot
53:00lot and move around a lot and have a lot lot and move around a lot and have a lot of kind of um stochastic movement of kind of um stochastic movement of kind of um stochastic movement um burn up to 18 um burn up to 18 um burn up to 18 00 calories more per day than people who 00 calories more per day than people who 00 calories more per day than people who sit more still fascinating incredible sit more still fascinating incredible sit more still fascinating incredible and just incredible and just incredible and just incredible um I don't think that work dessert gets um I don't think that work dessert gets um I don't think that work dessert gets as much attention as it deserves as much attention as it deserves as much attention as it deserves publishing journals like nature so very publishing journals like nature so very publishing journals like nature so very uh fine journals but in any event uh fine journals but in any event uh fine journals but in any event uh one of the things that I noticed when uh one of the things that I noticed when uh one of the things that I noticed when I started working in that laboratory was I started working in that laboratory was I started working in that laboratory was that I was cold because the room was that I was cold because the room was that I was cold because the room was cold and um Dr Carlisle Harry cold and um Dr Carlisle Harry cold and um Dr Carlisle Harry um said well the key is to wear a um said well the key is to wear a um said well the key is to wear a t-shirt in here for about two or three t-shirt in here for about two or three t-shirt in here for about two or three days and then you will cold adapt I days and then you will cold adapt I days and then you will cold adapt I thought well wouldn't I want to put on a thought well wouldn't I want to put on a thought well wouldn't I want to put on a hoodie and get warm in there so I was hoodie and get warm in there so I was hoodie and get warm in there so I was comfortable and he said no actually what comfortable and he said no actually what comfortable and he said no actually what you want to do is get yourself you want to do is get yourself you want to do is get yourself uncomfortably cold activate your brown uncomfortably cold activate your brown uncomfortably cold activate your brown fat and indeed when I did that I think fat and indeed when I did that I think fat and indeed when I did that I think it was just two days of being in that it was just two days of being in that it was just two days of being in that cold environment then I could come back cold environment then I could come back cold environment then I could come back on the third day and be perfectly on the third day and be perfectly on the third day and be perfectly comfortable yeah because the brown fat comfortable yeah because the brown fat comfortable yeah because the brown fat had expanded had expanded had expanded um or or added mitochondria or both and um or or added mitochondria or both and um or or added mitochondria or both and I was perfectly comfortable in that
54:00I was perfectly comfortable in that I was perfectly comfortable in that environment I also got very very lean in environment I also got very very lean in environment I also got very very lean in those um in those days and weeks now those um in those days and weeks now those um in those days and weeks now I've never been somebody who's very lean I've never been somebody who's very lean I've never been somebody who's very lean nor am I somebody who carries a lot of nor am I somebody who carries a lot of nor am I somebody who carries a lot of excess adipose tissue I'm kind of excess adipose tissue I'm kind of excess adipose tissue I'm kind of somewhere in the middle I'm sure I could somewhere in the middle I'm sure I could somewhere in the middle I'm sure I could adjust that with feeding if I want to adjust that with feeding if I want to adjust that with feeding if I want to but it was it was striking uh what a but it was it was striking uh what a but it was it was striking uh what a powerful effect it had on my entire powerful effect it had on my entire powerful effect it had on my entire system of thermal regulation and one of system of thermal regulation and one of system of thermal regulation and one of the things that I uh also delighted in the things that I uh also delighted in the things that I uh also delighted in when cell reports when cell reports when cell reports um medicine published your study is they um medicine published your study is they um medicine published your study is they had in an accompanying um press release had in an accompanying um press release had in an accompanying um press release that went out to to those of us that that went out to to those of us that that went out to to those of us that received press releases and it described received press releases and it described received press releases and it described a um a saying in Scandinavia which is um a um a saying in Scandinavia which is um a um a saying in Scandinavia which is um essentially I'm not going to attempt to essentially I'm not going to attempt to essentially I'm not going to attempt to uh speak uh Danish even though I have uh speak uh Danish even though I have uh speak uh Danish even though I have much of my family is in Denmark I much of my family is in Denmark I much of my family is in Denmark I believe or not from Denmark believe or not from Denmark believe or not from Denmark um we have a lot of Danes in my family um we have a lot of Danes in my family um we have a lot of Danes in my family um I won't embarrass myself by trying to um I won't embarrass myself by trying to um I won't embarrass myself by trying to speak Danish as I did before the the speak Danish as I did before the the speak Danish as I did before the the microphones were rolling but microphones were rolling but microphones were rolling but um that there's a saying that I think um that there's a saying that I think um that there's a saying that I think essentially translates to in the fall
55:00essentially translates to in the fall essentially translates to in the fall when when you're approaching winter you when when you're approaching winter you when when you're approaching winter you want to actually wear fewer layers not want to actually wear fewer layers not want to actually wear fewer layers not bundle up when you go outside so that bundle up when you go outside so that bundle up when you go outside so that you can prepare yourself for the cold of you can prepare yourself for the cold of you can prepare yourself for the cold of winter and be able to heat yourself up winter and be able to heat yourself up winter and be able to heat yourself up using your brown fat and that in the using your brown fat and that in the using your brown fat and that in the spring as the temperatures are warming spring as the temperatures are warming spring as the temperatures are warming rather than removing layers you want to rather than removing layers you want to rather than removing layers you want to wear more layers in order to be a little wear more layers in order to be a little wear more layers in order to be a little bit uncomfortably warm so that In the bit uncomfortably warm so that In the bit uncomfortably warm so that In the Heat of the summer you're better at Heat of the summer you're better at Heat of the summer you're better at cooling your body do I have that right cooling your body do I have that right cooling your body do I have that right and maybe do you know the saying and and maybe do you know the saying and and maybe do you know the saying and would you be willing to share it only would you be willing to share it only would you be willing to share it only the swedes and um uh and Danes will be the swedes and um uh and Danes will be the swedes and um uh and Danes will be able to understand able to understand able to understand um maybe the Norwegians too if you don't um maybe the Norwegians too if you don't um maybe the Norwegians too if you don't know it that's okay yeah so I know that know it that's okay yeah so I know that know it that's okay yeah so I know that I know the the concept of it because we I know the the concept of it because we I know the the concept of it because we say it you should you should wear a less say it you should you should wear a less say it you should you should wear a less before winter and and more before summer before winter and and more before summer before winter and and more before summer so there it is in English so it doesn't so there it is in English so it doesn't so there it is in English so it doesn't have to be esoteric but okay yeah and have to be esoteric but okay yeah and have to be esoteric but okay yeah and and you're completely right and I think and you're completely right and I think and you're completely right and I think this is the this is just something that this is the this is just something that this is the this is just something that we know in the Scandinavian countries I we know in the Scandinavian countries I we know in the Scandinavian countries I think that we we think that we we think that we we intuitively know this but if we just go
56:00intuitively know this but if we just go intuitively know this but if we just go back a little bit in history I think back a little bit in history I think back a little bit in history I think that um around the 1950s the the Russian that um around the 1950s the the Russian that um around the 1950s the the Russian government went out and said well we government went out and said well we government went out and said well we should do something about the should do something about the should do something about the tuberculosis pandemic or epidemic make tuberculosis pandemic or epidemic make tuberculosis pandemic or epidemic make the worse at this time so that they the worse at this time so that they the worse at this time so that they wanted to have the the people wanted to have the the people wanted to have the the people um be more resilient to the cold and um be more resilient to the cold and um be more resilient to the cold and also increase our immune system so in also increase our immune system so in also increase our immune system so in Scandinavia and actually also in Russia Scandinavia and actually also in Russia Scandinavia and actually also in Russia we put our babies outside to sleep in we put our babies outside to sleep in we put our babies outside to sleep in the prom and that is like to uh also to the prom and that is like to uh also to the prom and that is like to uh also to to get more resistance to the code but to get more resistance to the code but to get more resistance to the code but also to increase our immune system and also to increase our immune system and also to increase our immune system and we still do that in Denmark so we do you we still do that in Denmark so we do you we still do that in Denmark so we do you really yeah we do babies are taken out really yeah we do babies are taken out really yeah we do babies are taken out in the cold in the snow in Frosty rain in the cold in the snow in Frosty rain in the cold in the snow in Frosty rain everything my two boys have been everything my two boys have been everything my two boys have been sleeping out in winter or at least the sleeping out in winter or at least the sleeping out in winter or at least the first many three four five years because first many three four five years because first many three four five years because it's like very good for them and they
57:00it's like very good for them and they it's like very good for them and they get a better immune system and get get a better immune system and get get a better immune system and get resilient to the cold so they will have resilient to the cold so they will have resilient to the cold so they will have less colds and also they run around in a less colds and also they run around in a less colds and also they run around in a t-shirt when it's super cool because t-shirt when it's super cool because t-shirt when it's super cool because they have activated all their Brown fat they have activated all their Brown fat they have activated all their Brown fat I didn't understand at that time I must I didn't understand at that time I must I didn't understand at that time I must I must say but I kind of like I must say but I kind of like I must say but I kind of like intuitively also knew because we have intuitively also knew because we have intuitively also knew because we have inherited this way of doing things with inherited this way of doing things with inherited this way of doing things with our culture her so and I have heard our culture her so and I have heard our culture her so and I have heard people coming from the U.S saying things people coming from the U.S saying things people coming from the U.S saying things are crazy they put the babies outside are crazy they put the babies outside are crazy they put the babies outside and problems and leave them there and and problems and leave them there and and problems and leave them there and then they go inside and drink coffee on then they go inside and drink coffee on then they go inside and drink coffee on the cafe the cafe the cafe well I don't think Danes are crazy I I I well I don't think Danes are crazy I I I well I don't think Danes are crazy I I I I Adore the dates I Adore the dates I Adore the dates um they're they're amazing uh culture um they're they're amazing uh culture um they're they're amazing uh culture and people I'm so fortunate to have and people I'm so fortunate to have and people I'm so fortunate to have family members uh from Denmark but I did family members uh from Denmark but I did family members uh from Denmark but I did notice so when when we were in notice so when when we were in notice so when when we were in Copenhagen and I know um we we saw you Copenhagen and I know um we we saw you Copenhagen and I know um we we saw you there uh not long ago that was June there uh not long ago that was June there uh not long ago that was June um the water in the harbor was was cold um the water in the harbor was was cold um the water in the harbor was was cold for even though the Pacific is close to for even though the Pacific is close to for even though the Pacific is close to here which is very cold I was felt here which is very cold I was felt here which is very cold I was felt pretty cold but I it was summertime ish
58:00pretty cold but I it was summertime ish pretty cold but I it was summertime ish um so people were in summertime mode um so people were in summertime mode um so people were in summertime mode right t-shirts and shorts and things right t-shirts and shorts and things right t-shirts and shorts and things that that sort but it did strike me that that that sort but it did strike me that that that sort but it did strike me that people in Copenhagen are people in Copenhagen are people in Copenhagen are dramatically fitter than they are in the dramatically fitter than they are in the dramatically fitter than they are in the United States I mean first of all United States I mean first of all United States I mean first of all everyone's bicycling everywhere yeah everyone's bicycling everywhere yeah everyone's bicycling everywhere yeah um not many people wearing sunglasses so um not many people wearing sunglasses so um not many people wearing sunglasses so trying to extract as much Photon energy trying to extract as much Photon energy trying to extract as much Photon energy from the Sun as possible which I support from the Sun as possible which I support from the Sun as possible which I support uh as everyone knows that's I'm a big uh as everyone knows that's I'm a big uh as everyone knows that's I'm a big fan of getting Sun but also fan of getting Sun but also fan of getting Sun but also um when we did see swimmers um when we did see swimmers um when we did see swimmers um they were swimming in this cold water um they were swimming in this cold water um they were swimming in this cold water and like it was nothing and their the and like it was nothing and their the and like it was nothing and their the range in age of the swimmers was what range in age of the swimmers was what range in age of the swimmers was what was remarkable you saw the kind of fit was remarkable you saw the kind of fit was remarkable you saw the kind of fit triathlete looking types but also young triathlete looking types but also young triathlete looking types but also young kids like really young kids and then kids like really young kids and then kids like really young kids and then people probably in there again they're people probably in there again they're people probably in there again they're they're 70s 80s maybe even 90s really uh they're 70s 80s maybe even 90s really uh they're 70s 80s maybe even 90s really uh remarkable vastly different than what remarkable vastly different than what remarkable vastly different than what you see if you go to the ocean here in
59:00you see if you go to the ocean here in you see if you go to the ocean here in Los Angeles or or elsewhere so Los Angeles or or elsewhere so Los Angeles or or elsewhere so um yeah you Scandinavians are on to um yeah you Scandinavians are on to um yeah you Scandinavians are on to something with this I'd like to take a something with this I'd like to take a something with this I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor inside quick break and thank our sponsor inside quick break and thank our sponsor inside tracker inside tracker is a personalized tracker inside tracker is a personalized tracker inside tracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data nutrition platform that analyzes data nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you from your blood and DNA to help you from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you better understand your body and help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals I've long been a reach your health goals I've long been a reach your health goals I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work believer in getting regular blood work believer in getting regular blood work done the simple reason that many of the done the simple reason that many of the done the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and factors that impact your immediate and factors that impact your immediate and long-term Health can only be assessed long-term Health can only be assessed long-term Health can only be assessed with a quality blood test the problem with a quality blood test the problem with a quality blood test the problem with a lot of blood and DNA tests out with a lot of blood and DNA tests out with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there however is that they'll give you there however is that they'll give you there however is that they'll give you information about certain lipid markers information about certain lipid markers information about certain lipid markers or hormone markers but no information or hormone markers but no information or hormone markers but no information about what to do with all of that data about what to do with all of that data about what to do with all of that data inside tracker makes it very easy to inside tracker makes it very easy to inside tracker makes it very easy to look at your levels of hormones look at your levels of hormones look at your levels of hormones metabolic factors lipids Etc and then to metabolic factors lipids Etc and then to metabolic factors lipids Etc and then to assess what sorts of Behavioral assess what sorts of Behavioral assess what sorts of Behavioral nutritional supplementation or perhaps nutritional supplementation or perhaps nutritional supplementation or perhaps other interventions you might want to other interventions you might want to other interventions you might want to use in order to bring those numbers into use in order to bring those numbers into use in order to bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for your the ranges that are optimal for your the ranges that are optimal for your health inside tracker's ultimate plan health inside tracker's ultimate plan health inside tracker's ultimate plan now includes three new hormone markers now includes three new hormone markers now includes three new hormone markers that are critical to measure during a that are critical to measure during a that are critical to measure during a woman's reproductive and menopausal
1:00woman's reproductive and menopausal woman's reproductive and menopausal years these are estradiol progesterone years these are estradiol progesterone years these are estradiol progesterone and thyroid stimulating hormone if you'd and thyroid stimulating hormone if you'd and thyroid stimulating hormone if you'd like to try inside tracker you can go to like to try inside tracker you can go to like to try inside tracker you can go to insidetracker.com huberman to get 20 off insidetracker.com huberman to get 20 off insidetracker.com huberman to get 20 off any of inside tracker's plans again any of inside tracker's plans again any of inside tracker's plans again that's inside tracker.com huberman to that's inside tracker.com huberman to that's inside tracker.com huberman to get 20 off get 20 off get 20 off I'd like to talk about your study I'd like to talk about your study I'd like to talk about your study if you could give us a little bit of the if you could give us a little bit of the if you could give us a little bit of the backdrop about what motivated that study backdrop about what motivated that study backdrop about what motivated that study and then um and then walk us through and then um and then walk us through and then um and then walk us through what you did you know who the subjects what you did you know who the subjects what you did you know who the subjects were what you had them do what you were what you had them do what you were what you had them do what you measured measured measured um in as much detail as you would like um in as much detail as you would like um in as much detail as you would like to share because I think it's such an to share because I think it's such an to share because I think it's such an important you know even fair to say important you know even fair to say important you know even fair to say landmark study because it also explored landmark study because it also explored landmark study because it also explored not just cold but sauna and the the not just cold but sauna and the the not just cold but sauna and the the co-use of cold and sauna as a way to co-use of cold and sauna as a way to co-use of cold and sauna as a way to probe metabolism and brown fat and other probe metabolism and brown fat and other probe metabolism and brown fat and other markers as well and as you do this uh markers as well and as you do this uh markers as well and as you do this uh I'm hoping at some point that you might I'm hoping at some point that you might I'm hoping at some point that you might tell us some of the observations that tell us some of the observations that tell us some of the observations that you might have made that interested you
1:01you might have made that interested you you might have made that interested you that perhaps were not in the paper that perhaps were not in the paper that perhaps were not in the paper because that's one of the great benefits because that's one of the great benefits because that's one of the great benefits of sitting across from somebody who who of sitting across from somebody who who of sitting across from somebody who who did the work in detail so um yeah if you did the work in detail so um yeah if you did the work in detail so um yeah if you could tell us about your study um and uh could tell us about your study um and uh could tell us about your study um and uh what you did and what you discovered what you did and what you discovered what you did and what you discovered thank you for the question Andrew I I'd thank you for the question Andrew I I'd thank you for the question Andrew I I'd love to like also explain a little bit love to like also explain a little bit love to like also explain a little bit what did we do because when people read what did we do because when people read what did we do because when people read this kind of paper they just see the this kind of paper they just see the this kind of paper they just see the numbers they don't see what what numbers they don't see what what numbers they don't see what what happened before that and human studies happened before that and human studies happened before that and human studies are very different from from my study my are very different from from my study my are very different from from my study my studies you can do a knockout of studies you can do a knockout of studies you can do a knockout of something and then everything is like something and then everything is like something and then everything is like perfectly matched and controlled doing perfectly matched and controlled doing perfectly matched and controlled doing humans bodies is very far different from humans bodies is very far different from humans bodies is very far different from that because people are different even that because people are different even that because people are different even in the groups so yeah but what we um in the groups so yeah but what we um in the groups so yeah but what we um when I started this research in 2016 I when I started this research in 2016 I when I started this research in 2016 I did not really know what the brown fat did not really know what the brown fat did not really know what the brown fat was so I started reading up on all this was so I started reading up on all this was so I started reading up on all this and I was very interested in preventive and I was very interested in preventive and I was very interested in preventive medicine and also the studies that I did medicine and also the studies that I did medicine and also the studies that I did before Brown fat was also like very much before Brown fat was also like very much before Brown fat was also like very much in in the preventive side like how can
1:02in in the preventive side like how can in in the preventive side like how can we that was about something else but the we that was about something else but the we that was about something else but the Sweet Tooth and how can we lower our Sweet Tooth and how can we lower our Sweet Tooth and how can we lower our sweet tooth and stuff like that so but sweet tooth and stuff like that so but sweet tooth and stuff like that so but after that I wanted to to do something after that I wanted to to do something after that I wanted to to do something new so I looked into the brown fat got new so I looked into the brown fat got new so I looked into the brown fat got hired in this fantastic research group hired in this fantastic research group hired in this fantastic research group where they it's a cell group so they where they it's a cell group so they where they it's a cell group so they mostly did cell studies and they didn't mostly did cell studies and they didn't mostly did cell studies and they didn't have anyone to do a human study yet have anyone to do a human study yet have anyone to do a human study yet um and um but they really wanted me to um and um but they really wanted me to um and um but they really wanted me to to do that so I read upon a lot of to do that so I read upon a lot of to do that so I read upon a lot of research about how does the brown fat research about how does the brown fat research about how does the brown fat get activated what have been done get activated what have been done get activated what have been done already and I mentioned the paper before already and I mentioned the paper before already and I mentioned the paper before with sleeping in the cold I found that with sleeping in the cold I found that with sleeping in the cold I found that particular paper very fascinating and particular paper very fascinating and particular paper very fascinating and that was also where that was also where that was also where um at that time I was like okay so cold um at that time I was like okay so cold um at that time I was like okay so cold exposure sure as an intervention of exposure sure as an intervention of exposure sure as an intervention of sleeping in the cold could be a good sleeping in the cold could be a good sleeping in the cold could be a good thing to go out and say well people do thing to go out and say well people do thing to go out and say well people do this but on the other hand is first of this but on the other hand is first of this but on the other hand is first of all it was already done that was one all it was already done that was one all it was already done that was one thing but the other thing was like well thing but the other thing was like well thing but the other thing was like well I wanted to to see if we can do it like I wanted to to see if we can do it like I wanted to to see if we can do it like some kind of activity so we can have some kind of activity so we can have some kind of activity so we can have people move also go and do something do
1:03people move also go and do something do people move also go and do something do something together or whatever and and something together or whatever and and something together or whatever and and the code made us think about well what the code made us think about well what the code made us think about well what about winter swimming and it was kind of about winter swimming and it was kind of about winter swimming and it was kind of like a bit of a joke in the beginning like a bit of a joke in the beginning like a bit of a joke in the beginning it's like winter swimming yeah it's it's like winter swimming yeah it's it's like winter swimming yeah it's going to activate the brown fat ride but going to activate the brown fat ride but going to activate the brown fat ride but but when we read the literature we but when we read the literature we but when we read the literature we couldn't really find anything about couldn't really find anything about couldn't really find anything about activation of the brown fat with cold activation of the brown fat with cold activation of the brown fat with cold water besides hand in a bucket of cold water besides hand in a bucket of cold water besides hand in a bucket of cold water that really that was already there water that really that was already there water that really that was already there so we were just thinking okay so it so we were just thinking okay so it so we were just thinking okay so it should be very potent should be very potent should be very potent um activation of the brown fat if it's um activation of the brown fat if it's um activation of the brown fat if it's cold water but very different from cold cold water but very different from cold cold water but very different from cold air so it was kind of also a new thing air so it was kind of also a new thing air so it was kind of also a new thing we were going into and we knew that we we were going into and we knew that we we were going into and we knew that we were going to do like a more of a proof were going to do like a more of a proof were going to do like a more of a proof of concept study at the beginning of it of concept study at the beginning of it of concept study at the beginning of it because it was like winter swimmers because it was like winter swimmers because it was like winter swimmers um most in theory activate the brown fat um most in theory activate the brown fat um most in theory activate the brown fat right but we kind of didn't really know right but we kind of didn't really know right but we kind of didn't really know with was this kind of stressor too much with was this kind of stressor too much with was this kind of stressor too much too little or what will happen actually
1:04too little or what will happen actually too little or what will happen actually but we had this idea about well we but we had this idea about well we but we had this idea about well we always say that cold water and winter always say that cold water and winter always say that cold water and winter swimming will activate your metabolism swimming will activate your metabolism swimming will activate your metabolism but do but do we know if it does that no but do but do we know if it does that no but do but do we know if it does that no we don't so we don't so we don't so um and while this idea was a little bit um and while this idea was a little bit um and while this idea was a little bit fun fun at the beginning and we kind of fun fun at the beginning and we kind of fun fun at the beginning and we kind of accepted it was like okay let's just try accepted it was like okay let's just try accepted it was like okay let's just try this out but because we didn't have the this out but because we didn't have the this out but because we didn't have the funding for it we was like okay let's do funding for it we was like okay let's do funding for it we was like okay let's do a proof of concept study a proof of concept study a proof of concept study um let's go with a small number but um let's go with a small number but um let's go with a small number but enough to see um a difference between enough to see um a difference between enough to see um a difference between the groups so the power calculation of the groups so the power calculation of the groups so the power calculation of that study is done on what we know from that study is done on what we know from that study is done on what we know from Pet City scannings of the brown fat so Pet City scannings of the brown fat so Pet City scannings of the brown fat so that's the main outcome of that of that's the main outcome of that of that's the main outcome of that of course so course so course so um and we wanted to go a little bit um and we wanted to go a little bit um and we wanted to go a little bit smaller on the numbers of of smaller on the numbers of of smaller on the numbers of of participants because we wanted to dig a participants because we wanted to dig a participants because we wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the different little bit deeper into the different little bit deeper into the different mechanisms and also redo some of the the mechanisms and also redo some of the the mechanisms and also redo some of the the days so I really wanted to do that to days so I really wanted to do that to days so I really wanted to do that to see if I can replicate also the findings see if I can replicate also the findings see if I can replicate also the findings and that's going to take a lot of a lot
1:05and that's going to take a lot of a lot and that's going to take a lot of a lot of funding but it's also going to take a of funding but it's also going to take a of funding but it's also going to take a lot of time to do it lot of time to do it lot of time to do it um so the proof of concept was just um so the proof of concept was just um so the proof of concept was just going small but looking at different going small but looking at different going small but looking at different mechanisms we also took mechanisms we also took mechanisms we also took um fat biopsies for example and looked um fat biopsies for example and looked um fat biopsies for example and looked at the white fat to see if there was any at the white fat to see if there was any at the white fat to see if there was any differences between the groups before differences between the groups before differences between the groups before and after and stuff like that so that's and after and stuff like that so that's and after and stuff like that so that's kind of like how it started and and the kind of like how it started and and the kind of like how it started and and the first year was like a field study for me first year was like a field study for me first year was like a field study for me so I was not a winter swimmer when I so I was not a winter swimmer when I so I was not a winter swimmer when I started this it was just oh really no I started this it was just oh really no I started this it was just oh really no I wasn't wasn't wasn't um at all and I would say I was a bit um at all and I would say I was a bit um at all and I would say I was a bit afraid of the cold myself a bit of a afraid of the cold myself a bit of a afraid of the cold myself a bit of a cold uh always cold having big cold uh always cold having big cold uh always cold having big socks on and sweaters and stuff like socks on and sweaters and stuff like socks on and sweaters and stuff like that so I was like I am so comfortable that so I was like I am so comfortable that so I was like I am so comfortable I'm just like everybody else very I'm just like everybody else very I'm just like everybody else very comfortable I like being income comfortable I like being income comfortable I like being income completely temperature neutral and but I completely temperature neutral and but I completely temperature neutral and but I started like playing with the Stars like started like playing with the Stars like started like playing with the Stars like well if this is so healthy in theory I well if this is so healthy in theory I well if this is so healthy in theory I should not pack myself up I should start should not pack myself up I should start should not pack myself up I should start not doing that not doing that not doing that yeah but the first year observation of
1:06yeah but the first year observation of yeah but the first year observation of winter swimmers under Jetty they kind of winter swimmers under Jetty they kind of winter swimmers under Jetty they kind of joked about as they come on you need to joked about as they come on you need to joked about as they come on you need to try this you cannot study this um unless try this you cannot study this um unless try this you cannot study this um unless you have tried it and I was like haha you have tried it and I was like haha you have tried it and I was like haha very funny of course I can do that very funny of course I can do that very funny of course I can do that but I couldn't I I read the literature I but I couldn't I I read the literature I but I couldn't I I read the literature I understood in theory what happens when understood in theory what happens when understood in theory what happens when you go into cold water but I completely you go into cold water but I completely you go into cold water but I completely understood it when I first tried it the understood it when I first tried it the understood it when I first tried it the first few times not so funny it felt first few times not so funny it felt first few times not so funny it felt painful it was just like running too painful it was just like running too painful it was just like running too long after a long break and you and your long after a long break and you and your long after a long break and you and your muscles hurt the day you have to write muscles hurt the day you have to write muscles hurt the day you have to write you you completely regret that you took you you completely regret that you took you you completely regret that you took that extra mile what about when you say that extra mile what about when you say that extra mile what about when you say uncomfortable you mean uncomfortable uncomfortable you mean uncomfortable uncomfortable you mean uncomfortable when you got in and when you were in or when you got in and when you were in or when you got in and when you were in or uncomfortable afterwards because I find uncomfortable afterwards because I find uncomfortable afterwards because I find that um on rare occasions well I should that um on rare occasions well I should that um on rare occasions well I should just a full disclosure I I do deliberate just a full disclosure I I do deliberate just a full disclosure I I do deliberate cold exposure every morning for about a cold exposure every morning for about a cold exposure every morning for about a minute to two minutes in a cold plunge minute to two minutes in a cold plunge minute to two minutes in a cold plunge there are days that I miss but when I'm there are days that I miss but when I'm there are days that I miss but when I'm at home I do that and when I travel I do at home I do that and when I travel I do at home I do that and when I travel I do a cold shower I do finish with a warm
1:07a cold shower I do finish with a warm a cold shower I do finish with a warm shower so um and we'll talk about why shower so um and we'll talk about why shower so um and we'll talk about why that's probably not the best idea but um that's probably not the best idea but um that's probably not the best idea but um and I've been doing it for some years and I've been doing it for some years and I've been doing it for some years now now now um on and off uh but so just full um on and off uh but so just full um on and off uh but so just full disclosure I'm a devotee disclosure I'm a devotee disclosure I'm a devotee um and I have family members that uh um and I have family members that uh um and I have family members that uh hate the cold but have gotten into it hate the cold but have gotten into it hate the cold but have gotten into it and and are starting to like it but they and and are starting to like it but they and and are starting to like it but they don't and I don't necessarily like the don't and I don't necessarily like the don't and I don't necessarily like the experience in the cold water but I love experience in the cold water but I love experience in the cold water but I love the way I feel when I get out and I I'm the way I feel when I get out and I I'm the way I feel when I get out and I I'm a hundred percent on that statement a hundred percent on that statement a hundred percent on that statement about loving it when I get out about loving it when I get out about loving it when I get out occasionally it feels good to be in occasionally it feels good to be in occasionally it feels good to be in there it feels invigorating and I think there it feels invigorating and I think there it feels invigorating and I think I've learned to control the gasp reflex I've learned to control the gasp reflex I've learned to control the gasp reflex and the hyperventilation and I just have and the hyperventilation and I just have and the hyperventilation and I just have told myself what we know which is that told myself what we know which is that told myself what we know which is that the forebrain struggles to engage for the forebrain struggles to engage for the forebrain struggles to engage for the first 20 or 30 seconds but if you the first 20 or 30 seconds but if you the first 20 or 30 seconds but if you can get past that wall it's it's far can get past that wall it's it's far can get past that wall it's it's far easier to to push through easier to to push through easier to to push through um but when you say that it was really um but when you say that it was really um but when you say that it was really uncomfortable do you mean the experience uncomfortable do you mean the experience uncomfortable do you mean the experience of getting in or you also felt lousy of getting in or you also felt lousy of getting in or you also felt lousy afterward yeah it's and very important
1:08afterward yeah it's and very important afterward yeah it's and very important to clear that out I only felt very to clear that out I only felt very to clear that out I only felt very uncomfortable people doing it at the uncomfortable people doing it at the uncomfortable people doing it at the moment but afterwards the first time I moment but afterwards the first time I moment but afterwards the first time I went with with the group and actually my went with with the group and actually my went with with the group and actually my husband was there as well because I I husband was there as well because I I husband was there as well because I I really wanted someone I knew really wanted someone I knew really wanted someone I knew um coming along because it's very normal um coming along because it's very normal um coming along because it's very normal if you haven't done this before you feel if you haven't done this before you feel if you haven't done this before you feel a little bit anxious about it didn't a little bit anxious about it didn't a little bit anxious about it didn't this is Joan in studies as well because this is Joan in studies as well because this is Joan in studies as well because blood pressure and heart rate goes up in blood pressure and heart rate goes up in blood pressure and heart rate goes up in in those who are new to this kind of in those who are new to this kind of in those who are new to this kind of activity so um I was a little bit activity so um I was a little bit activity so um I was a little bit anxious about it so it was really anxious about it so it was really anxious about it so it was really uncomfortable just doing it but uncomfortable just doing it but uncomfortable just doing it but afterwards as soon as I got up I felt afterwards as soon as I got up I felt afterwards as soon as I got up I felt fantastic and we went into the sauna and fantastic and we went into the sauna and fantastic and we went into the sauna and I did three rounds because I just loved I did three rounds because I just loved I did three rounds because I just loved it I loved the feeling afterwards it I loved the feeling afterwards it I loved the feeling afterwards because you have all these Newton's because you have all these Newton's because you have all these Newton's measures going on your brain and you measures going on your brain and you measures going on your brain and you feel more positive you feel I feel feel more positive you feel I feel feel more positive you feel I feel invigorate I had so much energy and that invigorate I had so much energy and that invigorate I had so much energy and that like I I could totally see why people like I I could totally see why people like I I could totally see why people would do this to get energy throughout would do this to get energy throughout would do this to get energy throughout the day because I definitely had that I the day because I definitely had that I the day because I definitely had that I didn't have to do three dips to to get
1:09didn't have to do three dips to to get didn't have to do three dips to to get that I think one would be enough and I that I think one would be enough and I that I think one would be enough and I often do that all also now today I do often do that all also now today I do often do that all also now today I do one dip sometimes I do two or three dips one dip sometimes I do two or three dips one dip sometimes I do two or three dips in in one round you can say in one day in in one round you can say in one day in in one round you can say in one day but often it's like just one or two but often it's like just one or two but often it's like just one or two times a week for me that is enough to to times a week for me that is enough to to times a week for me that is enough to to get that energy and to get that positive get that energy and to get that positive get that energy and to get that positive feeling and and I think that that is feeling and and I think that that is feeling and and I think that that is also why I I put up my study in that way also why I I put up my study in that way also why I I put up my study in that way I wanted to study the lowest dose you I wanted to study the lowest dose you I wanted to study the lowest dose you can say the lowest amount that we can can say the lowest amount that we can can say the lowest amount that we can get away with but still see get away with but still see get away with but still see um health benefits so what I observed um health benefits so what I observed um health benefits so what I observed there on the jetty was that some did it there on the jetty was that some did it there on the jetty was that some did it a long time they were in the water for a a long time they were in the water for a a long time they were in the water for a very long time and to me it seemed maybe very long time and to me it seemed maybe very long time and to me it seemed maybe a little bit extreme could you give me a little bit extreme could you give me a little bit extreme could you give me an example of long time well so maybe an example of long time well so maybe an example of long time well so maybe they were like really swimming and they they were like really swimming and they they were like really swimming and they could be 20 minutes or half an hour could be 20 minutes or half an hour could be 20 minutes or half an hour that's a long time that's a long time that's a long time that's a long time that's a long time that's a long time and that was like ice and people who and that was like ice and people who and that was like ice and people who came up I mean came up I mean came up I mean I just didn't really feel that this is I just didn't really feel that this is I just didn't really feel that this is something that I wanted to go out and
1:10something that I wanted to go out and something that I wanted to go out and recommend to people after my community recommend to people after my community recommend to people after my community research subject dying either because if research subject dying either because if research subject dying either because if you're not adapted I mean the people you you're not adapted I mean the people you you're not adapted I mean the people you know people can't do that also a 20 know people can't do that also a 20 know people can't do that also a 20 minute cold shower or 20 minute cold minute cold shower or 20 minute cold minute cold shower or 20 minute cold plunge I know people do it but it's plunge I know people do it but it's plunge I know people do it but it's probably not a good idea no probably not probably not a good idea no probably not probably not a good idea no probably not it's gonna exhaust yourself some they it's gonna exhaust yourself some they it's gonna exhaust yourself some they make them age too fast so exactly that's make them age too fast so exactly that's make them age too fast so exactly that's when you pass that hermetic stress the when you pass that hermetic stress the when you pass that hermetic stress the healthy stress level that's what is healthy stress level that's what is healthy stress level that's what is happening the quite opposite is a almost happening the quite opposite is a almost happening the quite opposite is a almost chronic stress actually in the cells chronic stress actually in the cells chronic stress actually in the cells well what happened then was that well what happened then was that well what happened then was that um I found out if if I want to have this um I found out if if I want to have this um I found out if if I want to have this protocol get through ethical committee I protocol get through ethical committee I protocol get through ethical committee I I really needed to go like very like I really needed to go like very like I really needed to go like very like Sleek with the not too long and and make Sleek with the not too long and and make Sleek with the not too long and and make sure that they were also very healthy sure that they were also very healthy sure that they were also very healthy and and to get approval of course of and and to get approval of course of and and to get approval of course of this study this study this study um but what I did was to to recruit um but what I did was to to recruit um but what I did was to to recruit winter swimmers who already have been winter swimmers who already have been winter swimmers who already have been swimming for two or three seasons and I swimming for two or three seasons and I swimming for two or three seasons and I just observed them I said I'm not gonna just observed them I said I'm not gonna just observed them I said I'm not gonna do an intervention study yet I did that
1:11do an intervention study yet I did that do an intervention study yet I did that after but I I wanted to do like a proof after but I I wanted to do like a proof after but I I wanted to do like a proof of concept where they were already of concept where they were already of concept where they were already adapted to the cold and then compare adapted to the cold and then compare adapted to the cold and then compare them to a match control group who were them to a match control group who were them to a match control group who were matched on matched on matched on um um on you could say diet so whether they on you could say diet so whether they on you could say diet so whether they vegetarian or not vegetarian or not vegetarian or not um and one of them worse in each group um and one of them worse in each group um and one of them worse in each group uh also they weren't all vegetarians no uh also they weren't all vegetarians no uh also they weren't all vegetarians no no no just one in each group yeah it's no no just one in each group yeah it's no no just one in each group yeah it's gonna say with all the amazing fish and gonna say with all the amazing fish and gonna say with all the amazing fish and meat in uh in Denmark I'd have a hard meat in uh in Denmark I'd have a hard meat in uh in Denmark I'd have a hard time being a vegetarian no the breads time being a vegetarian no the breads time being a vegetarian no the breads are amazing the fruits and vegetables are amazing the fruits and vegetables are amazing the fruits and vegetables too but okay so there were a couple too but okay so there were a couple too but okay so there were a couple vegetarians in each group yeah one one vegetarians in each group yeah one one vegetarians in each group yeah one one in each yeah okay and then I'm in each yeah okay and then I'm in each yeah okay and then I'm vegetarian I have family members of vegetarian I have family members of vegetarian I have family members of vegetarians so I've just poking fun yeah vegetarians so I've just poking fun yeah vegetarians so I've just poking fun yeah yeah but they were they were matched on yeah but they were they were matched on yeah but they were they were matched on different things so what we usually different things so what we usually different things so what we usually match the mono is also BMI match the mono is also BMI match the mono is also BMI um which shows one gender in this study um which shows one gender in this study um which shows one gender in this study and we would always choose both men and and we would always choose both men and and we would always choose both men and women normally but we do see that there women normally but we do see that there women normally but we do see that there are different Brown fat levels depending
1:12are different Brown fat levels depending are different Brown fat levels depending on gender so women have more Brown fat on gender so women have more Brown fat on gender so women have more Brown fat than men really yeah interesting yeah I than men really yeah interesting yeah I than men really yeah interesting yeah I think it's interesting uh deserved study think it's interesting uh deserved study think it's interesting uh deserved study yeah yeah why actually I think it's yeah yeah why actually I think it's yeah yeah why actually I think it's interesting because women are also interesting because women are also interesting because women are also smaller so in size and mass right but smaller so in size and mass right but smaller so in size and mass right but they also have they also have they also have um a lower peripheral temperature um a lower peripheral temperature um a lower peripheral temperature especially on hands and ears and is that especially on hands and ears and is that especially on hands and ears and is that right that's that's documented that right that's that's documented that right that's that's documented that women do run colder than men yeah and women do run colder than men yeah and women do run colder than men yeah and they're physiologically I didn't say they're physiologically I didn't say they're physiologically I didn't say psychologically no no no we won't we psychologically no no no we won't we psychologically no no no we won't we won't go to the psychological won't go to the psychological won't go to the psychological it's different yeah something else it's different yeah something else it's different yeah something else that's a different podcast yeah that's a different podcast yeah that's a different podcast yeah another time so women are just colder another time so women are just colder another time so women are just colder physically physically physically so on hand so on hand so on hand there's it's measured on that on their feet as well so compared to men on their feet as well so compared to men and men have bigger Hearts than women and men have bigger Hearts than women and men have bigger Hearts than women and they can pump out more blood and they can pump out more blood and they can pump out more blood peripheral than in a woman's body so peripheral than in a woman's body so peripheral than in a woman's body so they that could be an explanation for they that could be an explanation for they that could be an explanation for the colder hands for example
1:13the colder hands for example the colder hands for example some comfortable state is also different some comfortable state is also different some comfortable state is also different between genders so men are more between genders so men are more between genders so men are more comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius and comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius and comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius and women are thermal comfortable at 24 women are thermal comfortable at 24 women are thermal comfortable at 24 degrees Celsius and this is the degrees Celsius and this is the degrees Celsius and this is the thermostat Wars of home have been now thermostat Wars of home have been now thermostat Wars of home have been now validated yes yes two degrees Celsius by validated yes yes two degrees Celsius by validated yes yes two degrees Celsius by the way prior to the way prior to the way prior to um starting recording uh I made the um starting recording uh I made the um starting recording uh I made the executive decision that we were going to executive decision that we were going to executive decision that we were going to go with Celsius throughout the podcast go with Celsius throughout the podcast go with Celsius throughout the podcast um because the majority of the world um because the majority of the world um because the majority of the world uses Celsius so for those of you that uses Celsius so for those of you that uses Celsius so for those of you that think in Fahrenheit think in Fahrenheit think in Fahrenheit um the internet is your friend in making um the internet is your friend in making um the internet is your friend in making those conversions so we're sticking with those conversions so we're sticking with those conversions so we're sticking with Celsius so men tend to be Thermo Celsius so men tend to be Thermo Celsius so men tend to be Thermo comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius women comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius women comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius women at 24. okay interesting explains a lot at 24. okay interesting explains a lot at 24. okay interesting explains a lot about like also some arguments in the about like also some arguments in the about like also some arguments in the homes where men are turning down the homes where men are turning down the homes where men are turning down the heater and women are turning up the heater and women are turning up the heater and women are turning up the heater and they cannot really so it's heater and they cannot really so it's heater and they cannot really so it's it's really it's I'm on both sides here it's really it's I'm on both sides here it's really it's I'm on both sides here I understand the men we understand the
1:14I understand the men we understand the I understand the men we understand the women but it's there is a difference women but it's there is a difference women but it's there is a difference there which was also one of the reasons there which was also one of the reasons there which was also one of the reasons why we had we in this proof of concept why we had we in this proof of concept why we had we in this proof of concept study chose one gender so it is not like study chose one gender so it is not like study chose one gender so it is not like only because we wanted to study man it only because we wanted to study man it only because we wanted to study man it was just to see to eliminate uh all the was just to see to eliminate uh all the was just to see to eliminate uh all the confounding factors which could have an confounding factors which could have an confounding factors which could have an impact on on our results so impact on on our results so impact on on our results so um that was one of the reasons um that was one of the reasons um that was one of the reasons um but also because we yeah so women um but also because we yeah so women um but also because we yeah so women have have more Brown fat than men and have have more Brown fat than men and have have more Brown fat than men and otherwise we would have to like do four otherwise we would have to like do four otherwise we would have to like do four groups or something like that and not groups or something like that and not groups or something like that and not having funding yet we were like okay we having funding yet we were like okay we having funding yet we were like okay we need to do like just one a group just a need to do like just one a group just a need to do like just one a group just a control group and then and a group who control group and then and a group who control group and then and a group who will always winter swimmers so I will always winter swimmers so I will always winter swimmers so I recruited winter swimmers who have been recruited winter swimmers who have been recruited winter swimmers who have been swimming for two to three seasons um um swimming for two to three seasons um um swimming for two to three seasons um um because I wanted them to be already because I wanted them to be already because I wanted them to be already adapted but not going too long in the adapted but not going too long in the adapted but not going too long in the water so they told me I did a lot of water so they told me I did a lot of water so they told me I did a lot of screening here of course beforehand and screening here of course beforehand and screening here of course beforehand and interviews to see to ask them how much interviews to see to ask them how much interviews to see to ask them how much do you do and
1:15do you do and do you do and um how much do you how long do you stay um how much do you how long do you stay um how much do you how long do you stay in the water and I monitored how long in the water and I monitored how long in the water and I monitored how long did they didn't stay in the water and did they didn't stay in the water and did they didn't stay in the water and recruited based on recruited based on recruited based on um that they only did like two to three um that they only did like two to three um that they only did like two to three times per week it seems reasonable for times per week it seems reasonable for times per week it seems reasonable for for Denmark at least to do that and they for Denmark at least to do that and they for Denmark at least to do that and they stayed only in the water for one to two stayed only in the water for one to two stayed only in the water for one to two minutes so the coastal subsides very minutes so the coastal subsides very minutes so the coastal subsides very quickly and you will get this activation quickly and you will get this activation quickly and you will get this activation of your rest and digest system which is of your rest and digest system which is of your rest and digest system which is your parasympathetic nervous system so your parasympathetic nervous system so your parasympathetic nervous system so the the other branch of your other the the other branch of your other the the other branch of your other enormous nervous system and you get that enormous nervous system and you get that enormous nervous system and you get that activation because you submerged into activation because you submerged into activation because you submerged into cold water and when you do that you have cold water and when you do that you have cold water and when you do that you have an activation of your diving response an activation of your diving response an activation of your diving response and that's gonna slow down the you can and that's gonna slow down the you can and that's gonna slow down the you can say the the cons Assumption of oxygen say the the cons Assumption of oxygen say the the cons Assumption of oxygen also in your body and that's going to also in your body and that's going to also in your body and that's going to slow down your heart rate could I pause slow down your heart rate could I pause slow down your heart rate could I pause you on this because I've heard this you on this because I've heard this you on this because I've heard this before that when we get into cold water before that when we get into cold water before that when we get into cold water shower or immersion we get this shower or immersion we get this shower or immersion we get this sympathetic autonomic response so sympathetic autonomic response so sympathetic autonomic response so increased blood pressure increased heart
1:16increased blood pressure increased heart increased blood pressure increased heart rate release of norepinephrine from the rate release of norepinephrine from the rate release of norepinephrine from the locus ceruleus in the brain release of locus ceruleus in the brain release of locus ceruleus in the brain release of um adrenaline dopamine adrenaline from um adrenaline dopamine adrenaline from um adrenaline dopamine adrenaline from the from the adrenals the from the adrenals the from the adrenals dopamine presumably within the brain dopamine presumably within the brain dopamine presumably within the brain but that the parasympathetic response is but that the parasympathetic response is but that the parasympathetic response is activated when we put our face into cold activated when we put our face into cold activated when we put our face into cold water or go underwater and that's a water or go underwater and that's a water or go underwater and that's a calming relaxation response calming relaxation response calming relaxation response so this brings us back to I don't want so this brings us back to I don't want so this brings us back to I don't want to take us off track from you describing to take us off track from you describing to take us off track from you describing the study but this brings us back to the the study but this brings us back to the the study but this brings us back to the first question which is if I go first question which is if I go first question which is if I go completely underwater for a moment when completely underwater for a moment when completely underwater for a moment when I start my cold plunge does that change I start my cold plunge does that change I start my cold plunge does that change the physiological outcome as compared to the physiological outcome as compared to the physiological outcome as compared to if I just submerge myself up to the neck if I just submerge myself up to the neck if I just submerge myself up to the neck and that and actually nowadays there's and that and actually nowadays there's and that and actually nowadays there's it seems to be a little bit of a it seems to be a little bit of a it seems to be a little bit of a movement online of people putting a bowl movement online of people putting a bowl movement online of people putting a bowl of ice water on their countertop and of ice water on their countertop and of ice water on their countertop and submerging their face into it did you submerging their face into it did you submerging their face into it did you see this let's just start obviously more see this let's just start obviously more see this let's just start obviously more and more posts about this so um could and more posts about this so um could and more posts about this so um could you just touch on the what the dive you just touch on the what the dive you just touch on the what the dive reflex is and why it act perhaps reflex is and why it act perhaps reflex is and why it act perhaps activates the parasympathetic response
1:17activates the parasympathetic response activates the parasympathetic response this calming response this calming response this calming response but also the diving reflex is activated but also the diving reflex is activated but also the diving reflex is activated when you submerge into cool water when you submerge into cool water when you submerge into cool water um even just to the neck yeah or I um even just to the neck yeah or I um even just to the neck yeah or I thought you had to get your face under thought you had to get your face under thought you had to get your face under I'm not I'm not arguing different you're I'm not I'm not arguing different you're I'm not I'm not arguing different you're the expert I just wanna yeah I haven't the expert I just wanna yeah I haven't the expert I just wanna yeah I haven't really I haven't read that I've just really I haven't read that I've just really I haven't read that I've just seen that you can activate your uh that seen that you can activate your uh that seen that you can activate your uh that diving response as soon as you go diving response as soon as you go diving response as soon as you go underwater with your body underwater with your body underwater with your body um so you don't have to do it with your um so you don't have to do it with your um so you don't have to do it with your face as far as I understand I could I face as far as I understand I could I face as far as I understand I could I could be wrong though could be wrong though could be wrong though um yeah so when when you activate your um yeah so when when you activate your um yeah so when when you activate your diving response you will slow down your diving response you will slow down your diving response you will slow down your um your oxygen consumption in your body um your oxygen consumption in your body um your oxygen consumption in your body and that is because the body tries to and that is because the body tries to and that is because the body tries to preserve preserve preserve um oxygen so you will not get um oxygen so you will not get um oxygen so you will not get hypothermic too fast so it's kind of hypothermic too fast so it's kind of hypothermic too fast so it's kind of like a survival system in your body like a survival system in your body like a survival system in your body um so this survival system is very um so this survival system is very um so this survival system is very um important for us of course so that um important for us of course so that um important for us of course so that would be activated and because of that would be activated and because of that would be activated and because of that you will have to maybe one minute or so
1:18you will have to maybe one minute or so you will have to maybe one minute or so I'm that can be precise on that because I'm that can be precise on that because I'm that can be precise on that because I maybe it also varies a bit in humans I maybe it also varies a bit in humans I maybe it also varies a bit in humans so one to two minutes you will have full so one to two minutes you will have full so one to two minutes you will have full activation of the sympathetic nervous activation of the sympathetic nervous activation of the sympathetic nervous system but also the parasympathetic system but also the parasympathetic system but also the parasympathetic nervous system nervous system um and that's going to activate for um and that's going to activate for um and that's going to activate for example something like serotonin in your example something like serotonin in your example something like serotonin in your brain which is like also good for mental brain which is like also good for mental brain which is like also good for mental balance and people feeling in mental balance and people feeling in mental balance and people feeling in mental balance afterwards they after they go up balance afterwards they after they go up balance afterwards they after they go up you know so that is like measured on a you know so that is like measured on a you know so that is like measured on a questionnaires and also measure like on questionnaires and also measure like on questionnaires and also measure like on anecdotes of course people tell all the anecdotes of course people tell all the anecdotes of course people tell all the time that they feel good afterwards we time that they feel good afterwards we time that they feel good afterwards we need studies on this so if anyone's need studies on this so if anyone's need studies on this so if anyone's sitting out there thinking that's sitting out there thinking that's sitting out there thinking that's interesting then please do some studies interesting then please do some studies interesting then please do some studies on that to get more out of that yeah on that to get more out of that yeah on that to get more out of that yeah so you had so you observed these winter so you had so you observed these winter so you had so you observed these winter swimmers who are done this for a few swimmers who are done this for a few swimmers who are done this for a few seasons yeah they're coming around for a seasons yeah they're coming around for a seasons yeah they're coming around for a new season of winter swimming and you've new season of winter swimming and you've new season of winter swimming and you've decided to recruit them as subjects decided to recruit them as subjects decided to recruit them as subjects they are getting into cold water they are getting into cold water they are getting into cold water climbing down a ladder or jumping into
1:19climbing down a ladder or jumping into climbing down a ladder or jumping into the water up to their neck yeah climbing the water up to their neck yeah climbing the water up to their neck yeah climbing yeah okay climbing down a ladder into it yeah okay climbing down a ladder into it yeah okay climbing down a ladder into it because it's done Outdoors what a fun because it's done Outdoors what a fun because it's done Outdoors what a fun study to do my graduate thesis was done study to do my graduate thesis was done study to do my graduate thesis was done under fluorescent lights with no windows under fluorescent lights with no windows under fluorescent lights with no windows in a in a building that uh I mean I had in a in a building that uh I mean I had in a in a building that uh I mean I had a ton of fun as a PhD student I actually a ton of fun as a PhD student I actually a ton of fun as a PhD student I actually lived in the laboratory as a PhD student lived in the laboratory as a PhD student lived in the laboratory as a PhD student I loved it so much but um not something I loved it so much but um not something I loved it so much but um not something required to do a PhD by the way but required to do a PhD by the way but required to do a PhD by the way but um they're climbing down the ladder yeah um they're climbing down the ladder yeah um they're climbing down the ladder yeah getting it up to their neck staying in getting it up to their neck staying in getting it up to their neck staying in for one to two minutes for one to two minutes for one to two minutes and then getting out and how many times and then getting out and how many times and then getting out and how many times a week are they doing this so to do this a week are they doing this so to do this a week are they doing this so to do this two to three times per week and for each two to three times per week and for each two to three times per week and for each time they go each day they go they take time they go each day they go they take time they go each day they go they take three rounds off so three dips and two three rounds off so three dips and two three rounds off so three dips and two sauna sessions so they start in the cold sauna sessions so they start in the cold sauna sessions so they start in the cold and they end in the cold water okay so and they end in the cold water okay so and they end in the cold water okay so it's get in for one to two minutes then it's get in for one to two minutes then it's get in for one to two minutes then get out and get into the sauna yeah get out and get into the sauna yeah get out and get into the sauna yeah um what is the temperature of the sauna um what is the temperature of the sauna um what is the temperature of the sauna about 80 degrees Celsius okay then how about 80 degrees Celsius okay then how about 80 degrees Celsius okay then how long are they in the sauna so they long are they in the sauna so they long are they in the sauna so they stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so
1:20stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so depending on if they went two times per depending on if they went two times per depending on if they went two times per week or three times per week okay and week or three times per week okay and week or three times per week okay and then they get back into the cold for a then they get back into the cold for a then they get back into the cold for a few minutes yeah two minutes up to two few minutes yeah two minutes up to two few minutes yeah two minutes up to two minutes yeah okay then back into the minutes yeah okay then back into the minutes yeah okay then back into the sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back into the cold for a third round yeah into the cold for a third round yeah into the cold for a third round yeah back into the sauna back into the sauna back into the sauna and then then they're ending and then and then then they're ending and then and then then they're ending and then back into the cold again and then ending back into the cold again and then ending back into the cold again and then ending on cold yeah and uh and we'll talk about on cold yeah and uh and we'll talk about on cold yeah and uh and we'll talk about why it's important to end on cold the why it's important to end on cold the why it's important to end on cold the so-called sober principle so-called sober principle so-called sober principle um how cold was the water in this um how cold was the water in this um how cold was the water in this particular given average because I particular given average because I particular given average because I realized it's outdoor winter swimming so realized it's outdoor winter swimming so realized it's outdoor winter swimming so it's going to vary depending on wind it's going to vary depending on wind it's going to vary depending on wind chill and things as well of course so chill and things as well of course so chill and things as well of course so it's a very uncontrolled environment to it's a very uncontrolled environment to it's a very uncontrolled environment to do this kind of study and but I wanted do this kind of study and but I wanted do this kind of study and but I wanted to do something that was also very close to do something that was also very close to do something that was also very close to something people could do for free to something people could do for free to something people could do for free going out in nature and use that and going out in nature and use that and going out in nature and use that and also have the nature like it's very also have the nature like it's very also have the nature like it's very healthy impact on us it lowers our healthy impact on us it lowers our healthy impact on us it lowers our stress stress level as well so stress stress level as well so stress stress level as well so by doing so I also measured the
1:21by doing so I also measured the by doing so I also measured the temperature every time they went so I temperature every time they went so I temperature every time they went so I have this graph and it's actually in the have this graph and it's actually in the have this graph and it's actually in the winter swimming book it shows the winter swimming book it shows the winter swimming book it shows the temperature in Denmark going like from temperature in Denmark going like from temperature in Denmark going like from October to April and it's like it starts October to April and it's like it starts October to April and it's like it starts at 12 degrees I think it's around 12 to at 12 degrees I think it's around 12 to at 12 degrees I think it's around 12 to 12 degrees Celsius and the water and 12 degrees Celsius and the water and 12 degrees Celsius and the water and then it goes down to two degrees in on then it goes down to two degrees in on then it goes down to two degrees in on average in January and then up again average in January and then up again average in January and then up again um so it's within the spectrum of very um so it's within the spectrum of very um so it's within the spectrum of very cold water I would say from around 15 15 cold water I would say from around 15 15 cold water I would say from around 15 15 degrees Celsius and down but it was degrees Celsius and down but it was degrees Celsius and down but it was actually not colder than like two to actually not colder than like two to actually not colder than like two to four degrees in in on average when it four degrees in in on average when it four degrees in in on average when it was the coldest so it doesn't have to be was the coldest so it doesn't have to be was the coldest so it doesn't have to be that cold to be good enough and and that cold to be good enough and and that cold to be good enough and and enough to activate our metabolism enough to activate our metabolism enough to activate our metabolism um and what time of day are um and what time of day are um and what time of day are um the participants doing this cold um the participants doing this cold um the participants doing this cold sauna alternation so I think they did sauna alternation so I think they did sauna alternation so I think they did this uh throughout the day so I didn't this uh throughout the day so I didn't this uh throughout the day so I didn't control whether they wanted to go in the control whether they wanted to go in the control whether they wanted to go in the morning in the afternoon or in the morning in the afternoon or in the morning in the afternoon or in the evening at that time where I set up this
1:22evening at that time where I set up this evening at that time where I set up this study I would I was not controlling it study I would I was not controlling it study I would I was not controlling it in that way I wanted them to go whenever in that way I wanted them to go whenever in that way I wanted them to go whenever they had time and I also think that is they had time and I also think that is they had time and I also think that is the most important message to give to the most important message to give to the most important message to give to give to people is when do it when you give to people is when do it when you give to people is when do it when you have time it's not if if doing it when have time it's not if if doing it when have time it's not if if doing it when you get home from work and it's six you get home from work and it's six you get home from work and it's six o'clock in the evening and this is the o'clock in the evening and this is the o'clock in the evening and this is the time where you are where you can do it time where you are where you can do it time where you are where you can do it and then then try out if it's going to and then then try out if it's going to and then then try out if it's going to impact your sleep or not if it doesn't impact your sleep or not if it doesn't impact your sleep or not if it doesn't impact your sleep then fine but you have impact your sleep then fine but you have impact your sleep then fine but you have to try for yourself and find out what to try for yourself and find out what to try for yourself and find out what works for you it's the same for coffee works for you it's the same for coffee works for you it's the same for coffee for example right some people can drink for example right some people can drink for example right some people can drink coffee in the evening and go to bed and coffee in the evening and go to bed and coffee in the evening and go to bed and they can sleep I can't or exercise or they can sleep I can't or exercise or they can sleep I can't or exercise or exercise exactly so I can't I can't do exercise exactly so I can't I can't do exercise exactly so I can't I can't do that and that's because the coffee that and that's because the coffee that and that's because the coffee exercise cold water and immersion is exercise cold water and immersion is exercise cold water and immersion is going to activate your sympathetic going to activate your sympathetic going to activate your sympathetic nervous system you have an increase in nervous system you have an increase in nervous system you have an increase in stress response in your body and and stress response in your body and and stress response in your body and and that's gonna make it really hard to fall that's gonna make it really hard to fall that's gonna make it really hard to fall asleep for some people at least maybe asleep for some people at least maybe asleep for some people at least maybe you are super exhausted anyways and then you are super exhausted anyways and then you are super exhausted anyways and then you will just crash anyways but yeah but
1:23you will just crash anyways but yeah but you will just crash anyways but yeah but um that's that's the only thing so I um that's that's the only thing so I um that's that's the only thing so I just told them to do this if they can just told them to do this if they can just told them to do this if they can during the daytime during the daytime during the daytime um and that's primarily what they also um and that's primarily what they also um and that's primarily what they also did and then uh all along you're did and then uh all along you're did and then uh all along you're measuring Brown fat by way of this measuring Brown fat by way of this measuring Brown fat by way of this infrared uh camera right infrared uh camera right infrared uh camera right um so what did you observe in terms of um so what did you observe in terms of um so what did you observe in terms of changes in brown how quickly did that changes in brown how quickly did that changes in brown how quickly did that occur and um and then I'd like to ask occur and um and then I'd like to ask occur and um and then I'd like to ask also about sauna a bit more um because also about sauna a bit more um because also about sauna a bit more um because earlier you mentioned that you can earlier you mentioned that you can earlier you mentioned that you can activate round fat with sauna as well activate round fat with sauna as well activate round fat with sauna as well with heat surface surface of the skin with heat surface surface of the skin with heat surface surface of the skin um um how long did it take before you observed how long did it take before you observed how long did it take before you observed significant increases in brown fat and significant increases in brown fat and significant increases in brown fat and was it increased density of my brown fat was it increased density of my brown fat was it increased density of my brown fat or distribution was it you know showing or distribution was it you know showing or distribution was it you know showing expansion to different regions expansion to different regions expansion to different regions throughout the body and maybe you could throughout the body and maybe you could throughout the body and maybe you could also touch on some of the changes in also touch on some of the changes in also touch on some of the changes in insulin sensitivity and Metabolism yeah insulin sensitivity and Metabolism yeah insulin sensitivity and Metabolism yeah a very good question and and I didn't a very good question and and I didn't a very good question and and I didn't mention this before but besides
1:24mention this before but besides mention this before but besides measuring measuring measuring um temperature as an outcome for brown um temperature as an outcome for brown um temperature as an outcome for brown fat activity we also did pet MRI fat activity we also did pet MRI fat activity we also did pet MRI scanning of the brown fat so this is scanning of the brown fat so this is scanning of the brown fat so this is like the the golden standard for like the the golden standard for like the the golden standard for measuring Brown fat and it's not very measuring Brown fat and it's not very measuring Brown fat and it's not very feasible for normal people to get and feasible for normal people to get and feasible for normal people to get and and a pet a CT or pet MRI a scanning of and a pet a CT or pet MRI a scanning of and a pet a CT or pet MRI a scanning of the brown fat is super expensive the brown fat is super expensive the brown fat is super expensive um so we had both uh to see if we could um so we had both uh to see if we could um so we had both uh to see if we could have like a continuous measure of brown have like a continuous measure of brown have like a continuous measure of brown fat in humans because that was already fat in humans because that was already fat in humans because that was already not not out there so I wanted to see not not out there so I wanted to see not not out there so I wanted to see during both the experience governmental during both the experience governmental during both the experience governmental days but also during day and night what days but also during day and night what days but also during day and night what kind of like circadian rhythm do we have kind of like circadian rhythm do we have kind of like circadian rhythm do we have in our Brown fat activity so that's why in our Brown fat activity so that's why in our Brown fat activity so that's why I wanted to have that as well so the Pet I wanted to have that as well so the Pet I wanted to have that as well so the Pet City scanning or the pit MRI scanning City scanning or the pit MRI scanning City scanning or the pit MRI scanning was to see upon code activation was to see upon code activation was to see upon code activation um stimulation for some hours do we have um stimulation for some hours do we have um stimulation for some hours do we have activation can we see the brown fat in activation can we see the brown fat in activation can we see the brown fat in this subject and also during thermal
1:25this subject and also during thermal this subject and also during thermal neutrality or thermal comfortable State neutrality or thermal comfortable State neutrality or thermal comfortable State how is that activated in each of the how is that activated in each of the how is that activated in each of the group of course ah so you want to see group of course ah so you want to see group of course ah so you want to see how comfortable people were away from how comfortable people were away from how comfortable people were away from the cold water and sauna just had the cold water and sauna just had the cold water and sauna just had different temperature environments is different temperature environments is different temperature environments is that right yeah so I also measured that that right yeah so I also measured that that right yeah so I also measured that how comfortable are you I had I made how comfortable are you I had I made how comfortable are you I had I made this scale like visual analog scale and this scale like visual analog scale and this scale like visual analog scale and asked them how comfortable do you feel asked them how comfortable do you feel asked them how comfortable do you feel with this temperature and throughout the with this temperature and throughout the with this temperature and throughout the study days during cold exposure and study days during cold exposure and study days during cold exposure and thermal comfortable day that had a whole thermal comfortable day that had a whole thermal comfortable day that had a whole day where I just kept them Thermal day where I just kept them Thermal day where I just kept them Thermal comfortable to see do they activate the comfortable to see do they activate the comfortable to see do they activate the brown fat if they're just completely brown fat if they're just completely brown fat if they're just completely thermal comfortable as good as we could thermal comfortable as good as we could thermal comfortable as good as we could get with that because you were asking get with that because you were asking get with that because you were asking people people people um on a scale from one to ten and five um on a scale from one to ten and five um on a scale from one to ten and five being thermal comfortable where are you being thermal comfortable where are you being thermal comfortable where are you on the scale so one would be very cold on the scale so one would be very cold on the scale so one would be very cold and ten would be super burning hot and ten would be super burning hot and ten would be super burning hot um yeah and so that was the way to like um yeah and so that was the way to like um yeah and so that was the way to like try to figure out how do they actually
1:26try to figure out how do they actually try to figure out how do they actually feel also during their studies they also feel also during their studies they also feel also during their studies they also measured a Electro myography so of of measured a Electro myography so of of measured a Electro myography so of of muscles to see do they shiver during the muscles to see do they shiver during the muscles to see do they shiver during the cooling day sometimes people shiver cooling day sometimes people shiver cooling day sometimes people shiver before they know they're really before they know they're really before they know they're really shivering so I have interesting yeah so shivering so I have interesting yeah so shivering so I have interesting yeah so our conscious perception of shivering our conscious perception of shivering our conscious perception of shivering might not be the best readout of shiver might not be the best readout of shiver might not be the best readout of shiver yeah well you if you also get adapted to yeah well you if you also get adapted to yeah well you if you also get adapted to the cold water you will have a less the cold water you will have a less the cold water you will have a less shivering there will be less vigorous shivering there will be less vigorous shivering there will be less vigorous they will be very small so you wouldn't they will be very small so you wouldn't they will be very small so you wouldn't probably know that you are shivering probably know that you are shivering probably know that you are shivering because this shivering is so small and because this shivering is so small and because this shivering is so small and the mitochondria in the muscle cells the mitochondria in the muscle cells the mitochondria in the muscle cells will be so dense that it doesn't need to will be so dense that it doesn't need to will be so dense that it doesn't need to shiver maybe that much to get a dead shiver maybe that much to get a dead shiver maybe that much to get a dead thermogenesis going and compared to when thermogenesis going and compared to when thermogenesis going and compared to when you're completely new you're completely new you're completely new uh to code water exposure you're not uh to code water exposure you're not uh to code water exposure you're not adapted then the body needs to create adapted then the body needs to create adapted then the body needs to create this mitochondria these energy Fabrics this mitochondria these energy Fabrics this mitochondria these energy Fabrics to keep you warm and that's also what to keep you warm and that's also what to keep you warm and that's also what the exercise is in the beginning but
1:27the exercise is in the beginning but the exercise is in the beginning but um when we measured this we did see that um when we measured this we did see that um when we measured this we did see that the winter swimmers were shivering less the winter swimmers were shivering less the winter swimmers were shivering less or having less vigorous shivering when or having less vigorous shivering when or having less vigorous shivering when they said I'm cold so even though they they said I'm cold so even though they they said I'm cold so even though they they perception their perception of the they perception their perception of the they perception their perception of the cup was pretty similar in in the in the cup was pretty similar in in the in the cup was pretty similar in in the in the groups and we could see that the the groups and we could see that the the groups and we could see that the the activation of the the muscles that we activation of the the muscles that we activation of the the muscles that we measured on measured on measured on um were different and more pictures in um were different and more pictures in um were different and more pictures in the control group were the subjects the control group were the subjects the control group were the subjects incentivized to be in the study were incentivized to be in the study were incentivized to be in the study were they paid or anything of that sort of they paid or anything of that sort of they paid or anything of that sort of they just happen to like doing uh cold they just happen to like doing uh cold they just happen to like doing uh cold and sauna and so that's why they did the and sauna and so that's why they did the and sauna and so that's why they did the study study study um well they got paid a little bit for um well they got paid a little bit for um well they got paid a little bit for it but not much and um that's how we do it but not much and um that's how we do it but not much and um that's how we do this sure I was just curious yeah yeah I this sure I was just curious yeah yeah I this sure I was just curious yeah yeah I was just curious there might be some was just curious there might be some was just curious there might be some folks that Wonder so so what did you folks that Wonder so so what did you folks that Wonder so so what did you discover in terms of changes in brown discover in terms of changes in brown discover in terms of changes in brown fat insulin resistance or insulin fat insulin resistance or insulin fat insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity rather and um metabolism so sensitivity rather and um metabolism so sensitivity rather and um metabolism so what we we saw was we had this kind of
1:28what we we saw was we had this kind of what we we saw was we had this kind of different measures to see what to try different measures to see what to try different measures to see what to try and unreal what what's actually going on and unreal what what's actually going on and unreal what what's actually going on when they are already adapted to the when they are already adapted to the when they are already adapted to the cold water compared to a control group cold water compared to a control group cold water compared to a control group who was matched on on various parameters who was matched on on various parameters who was matched on on various parameters we we did see that the winter swimmers we we did see that the winter swimmers we we did see that the winter swimmers had an increased insulin sensitivity had an increased insulin sensitivity had an increased insulin sensitivity they produced less insulin on all the they produced less insulin on all the they produced less insulin on all the experimental days so besides from just experimental days so besides from just experimental days so besides from just cooling them and measuring the brown fat cooling them and measuring the brown fat cooling them and measuring the brown fat on each of these cooling days or two on each of these cooling days or two on each of these cooling days or two cooling days and one thermal comfortable cooling days and one thermal comfortable cooling days and one thermal comfortable day right so I wanted to measure insulin day right so I wanted to measure insulin day right so I wanted to measure insulin when I just they were fasting meaning when I just they were fasting meaning when I just they were fasting meaning that they hadn't eaten in eight hours that they hadn't eaten in eight hours that they hadn't eaten in eight hours before the study day before the study day before the study day um and they were completely laying still um and they were completely laying still um and they were completely laying still not moving just in a bit and we measured not moving just in a bit and we measured not moving just in a bit and we measured insulin during the experimental day just insulin during the experimental day just insulin during the experimental day just to see how what level are they on and we to see how what level are they on and we to see how what level are they on and we could see that the the winter swim had could see that the the winter swim had could see that the the winter swim had had lower production of insulin and they
1:29had lower production of insulin and they had lower production of insulin and they also when they had and glucose drink so also when they had and glucose drink so also when they had and glucose drink so we give them that to see if they to test we give them that to see if they to test we give them that to see if they to test before we enroll them in studies to see before we enroll them in studies to see before we enroll them in studies to see if they have diabetes for example and if they have diabetes for example and if they have diabetes for example and not knowing for example that that not knowing for example that that not knowing for example that that wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the study so we test for that and see if study so we test for that and see if study so we test for that and see if they have like a normal curve so what we they have like a normal curve so what we they have like a normal curve so what we did see in that was that the winter did see in that was that the winter did see in that was that the winter swimmers had a faster glucose clearance swimmers had a faster glucose clearance swimmers had a faster glucose clearance in the bloodstream so after two hours we in the bloodstream so after two hours we in the bloodstream so after two hours we could see that they had a lower level could see that they had a lower level could see that they had a lower level and when the curve went down faster than and when the curve went down faster than and when the curve went down faster than in the control group so despite having in the control group so despite having in the control group so despite having lower insulin release they have better lower insulin release they have better lower insulin release they have better blood glucose clearance which is really blood glucose clearance which is really blood glucose clearance which is really what you want what we all seek right you what you want what we all seek right you what you want what we all seek right you know excessive insulin is bad insulin know excessive insulin is bad insulin know excessive insulin is bad insulin being a um more or less a chaperone for being a um more or less a chaperone for being a um more or less a chaperone for blood glucose blood glucose blood glucose um can do all sorts of other things as um can do all sorts of other things as um can do all sorts of other things as well of course but well of course but well of course but um and having high blood glucose um and having high blood glucose um and having high blood glucose obviously terrible yeah for cells obviously terrible yeah for cells obviously terrible yeah for cells especially brain cells I don't think especially brain cells I don't think especially brain cells I don't think people realize how toxic high blood people realize how toxic high blood people realize how toxic high blood glucose is having high glucose if you
1:30glucose is having high glucose if you glucose is having high glucose if you want to kill neurons you make you make want to kill neurons you make you make want to kill neurons you make you make their uh put them in an environment their uh put them in an environment their uh put them in an environment where there's too much sugar ah um oh where there's too much sugar ah um oh where there's too much sugar ah um oh yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean that's and their mechanisms like insulin that's and their mechanisms like insulin that's and their mechanisms like insulin that buffer that we keep you know that buffer that we keep you know that buffer that we keep you know keeping blood glucose in a reasonable keeping blood glucose in a reasonable keeping blood glucose in a reasonable range so that range so that range so that um that doesn't happen I mean I think um that doesn't happen I mean I think um that doesn't happen I mean I think that's why people will go into that's why people will go into that's why people will go into insulinemic shock insulinemic shock insulinemic shock hypoglycemic shock is also possible so hypoglycemic shock is also possible so hypoglycemic shock is also possible so that range in which neurons are happy is that range in which neurons are happy is that range in which neurons are happy is not a it's not a tremendously large not a it's not a tremendously large not a it's not a tremendously large range incidentally the range in which range incidentally the range in which range incidentally the range in which neurons are are um happy in surviving uh neurons are are um happy in surviving uh neurons are are um happy in surviving uh is much greater as one gets colder than is much greater as one gets colder than is much greater as one gets colder than when you heat up I mean you can when you heat up I mean you can when you heat up I mean you can basically destroy brain cells by getting basically destroy brain cells by getting basically destroy brain cells by getting too hot for too long oh yeah yeah you too hot for too long oh yeah yeah you too hot for too long oh yeah yeah you can definitely destroy brain cells can definitely destroy brain cells can definitely destroy brain cells permanently by getting too cold for too permanently by getting too cold for too permanently by getting too cold for too long but you have to get really really long but you have to get really really long but you have to get really really cold for a really long time yeah yeah cold for a really long time yeah yeah cold for a really long time yeah yeah very interesting yeah we're thinking very interesting yeah we're thinking very interesting yeah we're thinking about doing uh an episode on um uh sort about doing uh an episode on um uh sort about doing uh an episode on um uh sort of survival of the brain after death
1:31of survival of the brain after death of survival of the brain after death kind of things which actually happens kind of things which actually happens kind of things which actually happens you hear about these people who are you hear about these people who are you hear about these people who are declared dead and then come back and declared dead and then come back and declared dead and then come back and there's actually now a lot of there's actually now a lot of there's actually now a lot of cryopreservation type approaches for cryopreservation type approaches for cryopreservation type approaches for that this is uh anyway we risk going that this is uh anyway we risk going that this is uh anyway we risk going into the the uh the esoteric now so I'll into the the uh the esoteric now so I'll into the the uh the esoteric now so I'll steer us back to our discussion about steer us back to our discussion about steer us back to our discussion about your study but your study but your study but um so if I do the math um so if I do the math um so if I do the math these subjects are in the cold let's say these subjects are in the cold let's say these subjects are in the cold let's say they're doing three rounds of cold for they're doing three rounds of cold for they're doing three rounds of cold for one to two minutes three to two or three one to two minutes three to two or three one to two minutes three to two or three times a week times a week times a week what were the thresholds that you what were the thresholds that you what were the thresholds that you discovered were important for getting discovered were important for getting discovered were important for getting these positive changes in um these positive changes in um these positive changes in um such as reduced blood sugar or clearance such as reduced blood sugar or clearance such as reduced blood sugar or clearance of blood sugar of blood sugar of blood sugar um being more efficient uh reduced um being more efficient uh reduced um being more efficient uh reduced insulin improved Brown fat distribution insulin improved Brown fat distribution insulin improved Brown fat distribution and density and density and density um how much cold exposure do people need um how much cold exposure do people need um how much cold exposure do people need how much heat exposure do people need in how much heat exposure do people need in how much heat exposure do people need in order to extract these benefits yeah so order to extract these benefits yeah so order to extract these benefits yeah so when we then calculated the numbers when we then calculated the numbers when we then calculated the numbers together we could see that this was together we could see that this was together we could see that this was ended up being 11 minutes in total per
1:32ended up being 11 minutes in total per ended up being 11 minutes in total per week so not in one session of course but week so not in one session of course but week so not in one session of course but they had two to three visits to the they had two to three visits to the they had two to three visits to the water and the sauna per week so when we water and the sauna per week so when we water and the sauna per week so when we divide that out it corresponds to being divide that out it corresponds to being divide that out it corresponds to being in cold water one to two minutes at a in cold water one to two minutes at a in cold water one to two minutes at a time but also in the sauna 10 to 15 time but also in the sauna 10 to 15 time but also in the sauna 10 to 15 minutes at a time and I think this is minutes at a time and I think this is minutes at a time and I think this is very like also similar to what we see in very like also similar to what we see in very like also similar to what we see in other studies when we look for example other studies when we look for example other studies when we look for example to the observational studies from The to the observational studies from The to the observational studies from The Finnish cohort study from laauken at L Finnish cohort study from laauken at L Finnish cohort study from laauken at L for example they published this very for example they published this very for example they published this very amazing paper in 2015 and some results amazing paper in 2015 and some results amazing paper in 2015 and some results from this long cohort study where they from this long cohort study where they from this long cohort study where they show that that up to 30 minutes in the show that that up to 30 minutes in the show that that up to 30 minutes in the sauna was healthy and they you you lower sauna was healthy and they you you lower sauna was healthy and they you you lower your risk of cardiovascular disease and your risk of cardiovascular disease and your risk of cardiovascular disease and that's like the threshold and if you go that's like the threshold and if you go that's like the threshold and if you go further than that then there is not more further than that then there is not more further than that then there is not more healthy benefits to to gain from that so healthy benefits to to gain from that so healthy benefits to to gain from that so and before that it's like 19 minutes
1:33and before that it's like 19 minutes and before that it's like 19 minutes then you will have this dose response then you will have this dose response then you will have this dose response relationship up to 19 minutes that's relationship up to 19 minutes that's relationship up to 19 minutes that's really in decreasing your risk of really in decreasing your risk of really in decreasing your risk of cardiovascular diseases and I think cardiovascular diseases and I think cardiovascular diseases and I think that's per week 90 minutes per week 90 that's per week 90 minutes per week 90 that's per week 90 minutes per week 90 minutes per session now recession yeah minutes per session now recession yeah minutes per session now recession yeah per session if we per session if we per session if we um um then compare that with my study which then compare that with my study which then compare that with my study which was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I think it fits very well with what we think it fits very well with what we think it fits very well with what we call the Hermetic stress or healthy call the Hermetic stress or healthy call the Hermetic stress or healthy stress that you expose the cells to this stress that you expose the cells to this stress that you expose the cells to this kind of like potent very stressful kind of like potent very stressful kind of like potent very stressful situation where they increase heat shock situation where they increase heat shock situation where they increase heat shock proteins in the cells and that will proteins in the cells and that will proteins in the cells and that will repair the cells but if you then overdo repair the cells but if you then overdo repair the cells but if you then overdo it and you go beyond the maybe 30 it and you go beyond the maybe 30 it and you go beyond the maybe 30 minutes in the sauna this observational minutes in the sauna this observational minutes in the sauna this observational study from Finland with more than up to study from Finland with more than up to study from Finland with more than up to 2 000 sauna bathers where they're full 2 000 sauna bathers where they're full 2 000 sauna bathers where they're full of these for 20 years they see that a 30 of these for 20 years they see that a 30 of these for 20 years they see that a 30 minutes position is like enough and if minutes position is like enough and if minutes position is like enough and if you go above that you don't get more you go above that you don't get more you go above that you don't get more health benefits out of it so I think
1:34health benefits out of it so I think health benefits out of it so I think there's a window where we can say the there's a window where we can say the there's a window where we can say the healthy stress corresponds to like 10 healthy stress corresponds to like 10 healthy stress corresponds to like 10 minutes and I think it's per session per minutes and I think it's per session per minutes and I think it's per session per session and it's not it's not much session and it's not it's not much session and it's not it's not much actually so you don't need to actually so you don't need to actually so you don't need to it shows that you don't have to expose it shows that you don't have to expose it shows that you don't have to expose yourself very much to the Heat or very yourself very much to the Heat or very yourself very much to the Heat or very much actually to the cold to get this much actually to the cold to get this much actually to the cold to get this healthy benefits from going into cold healthy benefits from going into cold healthy benefits from going into cold going to heat and have healthy benefits going to heat and have healthy benefits going to heat and have healthy benefits on your cardiovascular system so I think on your cardiovascular system so I think on your cardiovascular system so I think this is very important also a message to this is very important also a message to this is very important also a message to to to get out that you don't have to go to to get out that you don't have to go to to get out that you don't have to go extreme you don't have to swim for a extreme you don't have to swim for a extreme you don't have to swim for a half an hour in the cold water you can half an hour in the cold water you can half an hour in the cold water you can go in the water for one to two minutes go in the water for one to two minutes go in the water for one to two minutes and per session but go up to 11 minutes and per session but go up to 11 minutes and per session but go up to 11 minutes per week in total and for the sauna my per week in total and for the sauna my per week in total and for the sauna my study showed uh 57 minutes in total two study showed uh 57 minutes in total two study showed uh 57 minutes in total two weeks and if we also then divide it out weeks and if we also then divide it out weeks and if we also then divide it out on these two to three days and two on these two to three days and two on these two to three days and two sessions each day correspond to 10 to 15 sessions each day correspond to 10 to 15 sessions each day correspond to 10 to 15 minutes so it's a low threshold but I minutes so it's a low threshold but I minutes so it's a low threshold but I think it's it's good to have that to
1:35think it's it's good to have that to think it's it's good to have that to maybe we can aim for that if people need maybe we can aim for that if people need maybe we can aim for that if people need to have something to to aim for and I to have something to to aim for and I to have something to to aim for and I think and I think it's really good to think and I think it's really good to think and I think it's really good to have that because then you you don't have that because then you you don't have that because then you you don't have then you don't overdo it and if you have then you don't overdo it and if you have then you don't overdo it and if you overdo it you exhaust the cells and that overdo it you exhaust the cells and that overdo it you exhaust the cells and that will increase your risk of will increase your risk of will increase your risk of cardiovascular disease also so well I cardiovascular disease also so well I cardiovascular disease also so well I get a lot of questions about this and I get a lot of questions about this and I get a lot of questions about this and I did solicit for questions for this did solicit for questions for this did solicit for questions for this podcast on on Twitter and one of the podcast on on Twitter and one of the podcast on on Twitter and one of the questions that I got was as one becomes questions that I got was as one becomes questions that I got was as one becomes more cold adapted do the benefits start more cold adapted do the benefits start more cold adapted do the benefits start to wear off or can people do too much to wear off or can people do too much to wear off or can people do too much cold exposure of course the answer to cold exposure of course the answer to cold exposure of course the answer to that is yes you can become hypothermic that is yes you can become hypothermic that is yes you can become hypothermic but I'm sensing a different answer now but I'm sensing a different answer now but I'm sensing a different answer now which is if I understand correctly the which is if I understand correctly the which is if I understand correctly the threshold is 11 minutes total per week threshold is 11 minutes total per week threshold is 11 minutes total per week of deliberate cold exposure divided into of deliberate cold exposure divided into of deliberate cold exposure divided into two or three sessions of maybe one to two or three sessions of maybe one to two or three sessions of maybe one to three minutes depending on how long three minutes depending on how long three minutes depending on how long somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I want to be careful not to round up want to be careful not to round up want to be careful not to round up to an hour but divide it into maybe to an hour but divide it into maybe to an hour but divide it into maybe three 20-minute sessions or so you know
1:36three 20-minute sessions or so you know three 20-minute sessions or so you know um so one doesn't have to be perfect as um so one doesn't have to be perfect as um so one doesn't have to be perfect as long as you get a beyond that threshold long as you get a beyond that threshold long as you get a beyond that threshold but I I wonder something which is but I I wonder something which is but I I wonder something which is it the case that if somebody said oh you it the case that if somebody said oh you it the case that if somebody said oh you know I'm just going to do one 11 minute know I'm just going to do one 11 minute know I'm just going to do one 11 minute session per week that might actually not session per week that might actually not session per week that might actually not be as beneficial as dividing it up be as beneficial as dividing it up be as beneficial as dividing it up because what you told us earlier is that because what you told us earlier is that because what you told us earlier is that the Hermetic response depends on having the Hermetic response depends on having the Hermetic response depends on having that cold shock you actually don't want that cold shock you actually don't want that cold shock you actually don't want to become too cold adapted I mean once to become too cold adapted I mean once to become too cold adapted I mean once the blood pressure response drops down the blood pressure response drops down the blood pressure response drops down so in minute four five and six yeah so in minute four five and six yeah so in minute four five and six yeah you're getting very cold and you're you're getting very cold and you're you're getting very cold and you're shivering but you're one is not getting shivering but you're one is not getting shivering but you're one is not getting the autonomic stimulus that they want I the autonomic stimulus that they want I the autonomic stimulus that they want I guess I could liken this to um if guess I could liken this to um if guess I could liken this to um if exercise worked in a way where it was exercise worked in a way where it was exercise worked in a way where it was only the first few minutes of exercise only the first few minutes of exercise only the first few minutes of exercise that really triggered the adaptation of that really triggered the adaptation of that really triggered the adaptation of course this is not how it works but um course this is not how it works but um course this is not how it works but um in fact probably quite the opposite in fact probably quite the opposite in fact probably quite the opposite um but if that were the case then it's um but if that were the case then it's um but if that were the case then it's not simply the total amount of exercise not simply the total amount of exercise not simply the total amount of exercise but dividing up the the the sessions but dividing up the the the sessions but dividing up the the the sessions into little bouts where every single
1:37into little bouts where every single into little bouts where every single time it acts as a stimulus that seems to time it acts as a stimulus that seems to time it acts as a stimulus that seems to be the key here be the key here be the key here um this is very important um this is very important um this is very important um because having watched the landscape um because having watched the landscape um because having watched the landscape of this on social media but also in of this on social media but also in of this on social media but also in books and generally books and generally books and generally um I think you're the first person to um I think you're the first person to um I think you're the first person to really touch on this that the goal is really touch on this that the goal is really touch on this that the goal is not to get so cold adapted that you can not to get so cold adapted that you can not to get so cold adapted that you can sit in for the full 11 minutes in one sit in for the full 11 minutes in one sit in for the full 11 minutes in one session where the goal isn't to be able session where the goal isn't to be able session where the goal isn't to be able to do an hour of very hot sauna if you to do an hour of very hot sauna if you to do an hour of very hot sauna if you want to I suppose people could do it for want to I suppose people could do it for want to I suppose people could do it for other reasons but if the goal is to other reasons but if the goal is to other reasons but if the goal is to improve these Health metrics yeah then improve these Health metrics yeah then improve these Health metrics yeah then the idea is to keep the stimulus a the idea is to keep the stimulus a the idea is to keep the stimulus a stimulus short exactly yeah great well stimulus short exactly yeah great well stimulus short exactly yeah great well this also I think there's practical this also I think there's practical this also I think there's practical feasibility as you pointed out because feasibility as you pointed out because feasibility as you pointed out because getting into a cold shower or cold getting into a cold shower or cold getting into a cold shower or cold immersion or natural body water for a immersion or natural body water for a immersion or natural body water for a couple of minutes is far less uh couple of minutes is far less uh couple of minutes is far less uh um you know challenging to most people um you know challenging to most people um you know challenging to most people than finding a full morning to go you than finding a full morning to go you than finding a full morning to go you know spend there know spend there know spend there um but I've never really heard it um but I've never really heard it um but I've never really heard it articulated that the longer sessions
1:38articulated that the longer sessions articulated that the longer sessions might not be beneficial it might might not be beneficial it might might not be beneficial it might actually be detrimental actually be detrimental actually be detrimental um um that's very important uh were there any that's very important uh were there any that's very important uh were there any other observations that you made other observations that you made other observations that you made um that did not make it into the paper um that did not make it into the paper um that did not make it into the paper or that were kind of in the the margin or that were kind of in the the margin or that were kind of in the the margin notes I mean in terms of psychological notes I mean in terms of psychological notes I mean in terms of psychological benefits benefits benefits um or anything of that sort there was um or anything of that sort there was um or anything of that sort there was this recent study on soldiers that this recent study on soldiers that this recent study on soldiers that talked about weight loss it's sort of a talked about weight loss it's sort of a talked about weight loss it's sort of a controversial study for a lot of reasons controversial study for a lot of reasons controversial study for a lot of reasons but one of the things they remarked in but one of the things they remarked in but one of the things they remarked in the paper was that there were a lot of the paper was that there were a lot of the paper was that there were a lot of psychological changes improved buffering psychological changes improved buffering psychological changes improved buffering against anxiety against anxiety against anxiety um they even the men and women in that um they even the men and women in that um they even the men and women in that study reported one of the significant study reported one of the significant study reported one of the significant effects was um significantly improved effects was um significantly improved effects was um significantly improved sexual satisfaction of course they sexual satisfaction of course they sexual satisfaction of course they didn't tell us what that meant for these didn't tell us what that meant for these didn't tell us what that meant for these subjects but so we won't go there but subjects but so we won't go there but subjects but so we won't go there but but a number of subjective improvements but a number of subjective improvements but a number of subjective improvements was there anything that you observed or was there anything that you observed or was there anything that you observed or took note of in in your study that took note of in in your study that took note of in in your study that perhaps didn't make the main abstract perhaps didn't make the main abstract perhaps didn't make the main abstract but that we should be aware of uh but that we should be aware of uh but that we should be aware of uh yeah there was some um and I'm I'm today
1:39yeah there was some um and I'm I'm today yeah there was some um and I'm I'm today I regret that I didn't measure on sleep I regret that I didn't measure on sleep I regret that I didn't measure on sleep for example I I frankly didn't really for example I I frankly didn't really for example I I frankly didn't really think about that when I I when I think about that when I I when I think about that when I I when I designed the study designed the study designed the study um so we were very um so we were very um so we were very um much occupied with the metabolism and um much occupied with the metabolism and um much occupied with the metabolism and kind of had the thought maybe this could kind of had the thought maybe this could kind of had the thought maybe this could impact a Sleep Quality impact a Sleep Quality impact a Sleep Quality um and I wish I just if I had the um and I wish I just if I had the um and I wish I just if I had the thought that why don't you just ask them thought that why don't you just ask them thought that why don't you just ask them in a questionnaire but I asked them in a questionnaire but I asked them in a questionnaire but I asked them every morning or everyone who's not many every morning or everyone who's not many every morning or everyone who's not many Monies to just two mornings actually and Monies to just two mornings actually and Monies to just two mornings actually and we measured on we measured on we measured on um but the winter swimmers um but the winter swimmers um but the winter swimmers um told us before I wrote them that they um told us before I wrote them that they um told us before I wrote them that they had a really good sleep quality the had a really good sleep quality the had a really good sleep quality the control group also had that but they control group also had that but they control group also had that but they told me on the day where we measured the told me on the day where we measured the told me on the day where we measured the brown fat on a day and night so if brown fat on a day and night so if brown fat on a day and night so if actually two days and two nights and actually two days and two nights and actually two days and two nights and they told me that they didn't they had a
1:40they told me that they didn't they had a they told me that they didn't they had a good night's sleep but they also woke up good night's sleep but they also woke up good night's sleep but they also woke up so it's just telling me that they also so it's just telling me that they also so it's just telling me that they also had like a quick wake up and then they had like a quick wake up and then they had like a quick wake up and then they fell asleep again fell asleep again fell asleep again um and the winter swimmers is so they um and the winter swimmers is so they um and the winter swimmers is so they have a really good sleep so it's like have a really good sleep so it's like have a really good sleep so it's like and in general they also say we we sleep and in general they also say we we sleep and in general they also say we we sleep very well I sleep very well so it's very well I sleep very well so it's very well I sleep very well so it's anecdotally General it corresponds to anecdotally General it corresponds to anecdotally General it corresponds to what I heard in my study but nothing what I heard in my study but nothing what I heard in my study but nothing that I measured on that I measured on that I measured on um which would could be fun to do in the um which would could be fun to do in the um which would could be fun to do in the future but we didn't measure on Sleep future but we didn't measure on Sleep future but we didn't measure on Sleep Quality that would have been a really Quality that would have been a really Quality that would have been a really good idea to do they also told me that good idea to do they also told me that good idea to do they also told me that they were very comfortable when they they were very comfortable when they they were very comfortable when they were cold they they don't mind a winter were cold they they don't mind a winter were cold they they don't mind a winter swimmers they don't mind going out for swimmers they don't mind going out for swimmers they don't mind going out for example example example um in in the coat with a t-shirt they um in in the coat with a t-shirt they um in in the coat with a t-shirt they were also less uh scared of showing were also less uh scared of showing were also less uh scared of showing their skin that was also one observation their skin that was also one observation their skin that was also one observation interesting yeah so kind of a reduced interesting yeah so kind of a reduced interesting yeah so kind of a reduced social anxiety yeah they were just so social anxiety yeah they were just so social anxiety yeah they were just so comfortable in the lab you as you just comfortable in the lab you as you just comfortable in the lab you as you just mentioned before coats on and
1:41mentioned before coats on and mentioned before coats on and everybody's journeying around it was everybody's journeying around it was everybody's journeying around it was very busy and and all the other very busy and and all the other very busy and and all the other scientists out in the hallway and also scientists out in the hallway and also scientists out in the hallway and also my supervisor I had her office down down my supervisor I had her office down down my supervisor I had her office down down the hallway and and one of the winter the hallway and and one of the winter the hallway and and one of the winter swimmers one day it just got out of bed swimmers one day it just got out of bed swimmers one day it just got out of bed after I had been in the study for eight after I had been in the study for eight after I had been in the study for eight hours it was a long day right he jumped hours it was a long day right he jumped hours it was a long day right he jumped out of the bed and had his clothes in out of the bed and had his clothes in out of the bed and had his clothes in the bathroom and he went out completely the bathroom and he went out completely the bathroom and he went out completely naked he didn't care he just went out it naked he didn't care he just went out it naked he didn't care he just went out it was like so that's a side effect perhaps was like so that's a side effect perhaps was like so that's a side effect perhaps of getting too comfortable with the cold of getting too comfortable with the cold of getting too comfortable with the cold um and we're not recommending that um and we're not recommending that um and we're not recommending that although in your book you um did a uh although in your book you um did a uh although in your book you um did a uh you dedicated some let me start that you dedicated some let me start that you dedicated some let me start that again although in your book you again although in your book you again although in your book you dedicated some uh pages to dedicated some uh pages to dedicated some uh pages to um naked winter swimming or I should say um naked winter swimming or I should say um naked winter swimming or I should say naked cold water exposure as opposed to naked cold water exposure as opposed to naked cold water exposure as opposed to um uh with bathing suit yeah are there um uh with bathing suit yeah are there um uh with bathing suit yeah are there any data on this I'm sorry chuckling but any data on this I'm sorry chuckling but any data on this I'm sorry chuckling but um I think in most places in the United
1:42um I think in most places in the United um I think in most places in the United States it's uh skinny dipping is not um States it's uh skinny dipping is not um States it's uh skinny dipping is not um is not legal most public beaches there is not legal most public beaches there is not legal most public beaches there are a few in fact where my laboratory are a few in fact where my laboratory are a few in fact where my laboratory before moving to Stanford was in San before moving to Stanford was in San before moving to Stanford was in San Diego and I at the Salk Institute for Diego and I at the Salk Institute for Diego and I at the Salk Institute for biological studies beautiful building biological studies beautiful building biological studies beautiful building incredible Sciences done there the beach incredible Sciences done there the beach incredible Sciences done there the beach right below that it's called Black's right below that it's called Black's right below that it's called Black's Beach okay and um and it's a known nude Beach okay and um and it's a known nude Beach okay and um and it's a known nude beach beach beach um and so whenever tourists were heading um and so whenever tourists were heading um and so whenever tourists were heading down the stairway there down the stairway there down the stairway there um I would you know sort of let them um I would you know sort of let them um I would you know sort of let them know especially if they had kids I'd let know especially if they had kids I'd let know especially if they had kids I'd let them know you know and it's a nude beach them know you know and it's a nude beach them know you know and it's a nude beach of a particular of a particular of a particular um uh of a particular genre so I I'd um uh of a particular genre so I I'd um uh of a particular genre so I I'd give them a little warning about what give them a little warning about what give them a little warning about what they could expect down below it's a um they could expect down below it's a um they could expect down below it's a um in any event those beaches are quite in any event those beaches are quite in any event those beaches are quite rare rare rare um in the United States maybe compared um in the United States maybe compared um in the United States maybe compared to Europe I don't know to Europe I don't know to Europe I don't know um but yeah maybe yeah so is there um but yeah maybe yeah so is there um but yeah maybe yeah so is there anything special about anything special about anything special about um clothesless versus closed um exposure um clothesless versus closed um exposure um clothesless versus closed um exposure yeah I think in that sense uh we are a yeah I think in that sense uh we are a yeah I think in that sense uh we are a bit more free with this kind of like but bit more free with this kind of like but bit more free with this kind of like but but remember we also had this winter but remember we also had this winter
1:43but remember we also had this winter swimming culture for so for hundreds of swimming culture for so for hundreds of swimming culture for so for hundreds of years in Denmark and the wind said the years in Denmark and the wind said the years in Denmark and the wind said the oldest winter swimming clubs that we oldest winter swimming clubs that we oldest winter swimming clubs that we have especially the one we have in have especially the one we have in have especially the one we have in Copenhagen where I did my next study Copenhagen where I did my next study Copenhagen where I did my next study which we haven't talked about but and which we haven't talked about but and which we haven't talked about but and it's also not published yet but it's also not published yet but it's also not published yet but um in that winter swimming club it's the um in that winter swimming club it's the um in that winter swimming club it's the oldest one we have and it's huge and oldest one we have and it's huge and oldest one we have and it's huge and they they swim naked at this facility they they swim naked at this facility they they swim naked at this facility men and women men and women and they men and women men and women and they men and women men and women and they have sauna where they can go in together have sauna where they can go in together have sauna where they can go in together and they also have the separate saunas and they also have the separate saunas and they also have the separate saunas but it's very much a Danish thing and but it's very much a Danish thing and but it's very much a Danish thing and and I think it's I think it's it's I and I think it's I think it's it's I and I think it's I think it's it's I think it's good if people want that think it's good if people want that think it's good if people want that um and I had it in my book because um and I had it in my book because um and I had it in my book because people want to know if they have to swim people want to know if they have to swim people want to know if they have to swim with their bathing suit on or if they with their bathing suit on or if they with their bathing suit on or if they can take it off or what's the what's the can take it off or what's the what's the can take it off or what's the what's the difference is there any difference in difference is there any difference in difference is there any difference in this and if you ask me there is no this and if you ask me there is no this and if you ask me there is no difference oh if you have your little difference oh if you have your little difference oh if you have your little skinny bikini on it's not going to do skinny bikini on it's not going to do skinny bikini on it's not going to do any difference to you you are a cold any difference to you you are a cold any difference to you you are a cold exposure or your adaptation it's not exposure or your adaptation it's not exposure or your adaptation it's not going to do any difference for your going to do any difference for your going to do any difference for your benefits of course but I think that it
1:44benefits of course but I think that it benefits of course but I think that it has something else it has something to has something else it has something to has something else it has something to do with how you also observe yourself do with how you also observe yourself do with how you also observe yourself how you absorb your surroundings and how you absorb your surroundings and how you absorb your surroundings and it's sometimes some sense of freedom in it's sometimes some sense of freedom in it's sometimes some sense of freedom in skinny dipping so I think people in skinny dipping so I think people in skinny dipping so I think people in Denmark who does this is Denmark who does this is Denmark who does this is they do the winter swimming because they they do the winter swimming because they they do the winter swimming because they feel free when they do they come home feel free when they do they come home feel free when they do they come home from work they go to this club and they from work they go to this club and they from work they go to this club and they skinny dip and they feel like in touch skinny dip and they feel like in touch skinny dip and they feel like in touch with nature and they have maybe done with nature and they have maybe done with nature and they have maybe done this their whole life so this is an old this their whole life so this is an old this their whole life so this is an old tradition in Denmark in some of the tradition in Denmark in some of the tradition in Denmark in some of the clubs clubs clubs um but the newer clubs are coming they um but the newer clubs are coming they um but the newer clubs are coming they don't they don't do a skinny dip so don't they don't do a skinny dip so don't they don't do a skinny dip so everyone has bathing suit I never Skinny everyone has bathing suit I never Skinny everyone has bathing suit I never Skinny Dip because there are people around Dip because there are people around Dip because there are people around people with phones and taking pictures people with phones and taking pictures people with phones and taking pictures all the time so this is different all the time so this is different all the time so this is different different nowadays everything's recorded different nowadays everything's recorded different nowadays everything's recorded yeah yeah and also this this tradition yeah yeah and also this this tradition yeah yeah and also this this tradition is also fading away because of that yeah is also fading away because of that yeah is also fading away because of that yeah I um I use sauna and cold at home but I um I use sauna and cold at home but I um I use sauna and cold at home but when I travel there there's a Banya so when I travel there there's a Banya so when I travel there there's a Banya so Russian Banya has hot sauna and cold
1:45Russian Banya has hot sauna and cold Russian Banya has hot sauna and cold plunge plunge plunge um there's one in San Francisco called um there's one in San Francisco called um there's one in San Francisco called Archimedes Banya um and that one is Archimedes Banya um and that one is Archimedes Banya um and that one is clothing optional so some people are clothing optional so some people are clothing optional so some people are clothed such as myself and then other clothed such as myself and then other clothed such as myself and then other people are not and it's co-ed people are not and it's co-ed people are not and it's co-ed most of the time I think they have male most of the time I think they have male most of the time I think they have male female separated uh evenings or female separated uh evenings or female separated uh evenings or something like that and then something like that and then something like that and then um the other Banya is Spa 88 which is in um the other Banya is Spa 88 which is in um the other Banya is Spa 88 which is in on Wall Street in New York is an amazing on Wall Street in New York is an amazing on Wall Street in New York is an amazing Banya as well Banya as well Banya as well um and these are starting to crop up in um and these are starting to crop up in um and these are starting to crop up in different cities or maybe they've been different cities or maybe they've been different cities or maybe they've been there for a long time and has deliberate there for a long time and has deliberate there for a long time and has deliberate cold exposure and sauna gets more cold exposure and sauna gets more cold exposure and sauna gets more popular more people are using them the popular more people are using them the popular more people are using them the the one in New York that I that Spa 88 the one in New York that I that Spa 88 the one in New York that I that Spa 88 is always closed is always closed is always closed um and it's interesting because you know um and it's interesting because you know um and it's interesting because you know people hear naked or skinny dipping and people hear naked or skinny dipping and people hear naked or skinny dipping and they they might get certain ideas in they they might get certain ideas in they they might get certain ideas in mind it mind it mind it um yeah all these places are very well um yeah all these places are very well um yeah all these places are very well lit and they all have a tone of kind of lit and they all have a tone of kind of lit and they all have a tone of kind of um of Health it's about the kind of um of Health it's about the kind of um of Health it's about the kind of health and and wellness health and and wellness health and and wellness um I guess the point being that um I guess the point being that um I guess the point being that um there's no requirement uh to do one um there's no requirement uh to do one um there's no requirement uh to do one thing or the other thing or the other thing or the other um although in the studies that uh you
1:46um although in the studies that uh you um although in the studies that uh you did obviously um people were clothed but did obviously um people were clothed but did obviously um people were clothed but I I did um I did pay attention to those I I did um I did pay attention to those I I did um I did pay attention to those pages in your book I thought it's pages in your book I thought it's pages in your book I thought it's interesting that you put some um some interesting that you put some um some interesting that you put some um some dedicated uh passages in your book dedicated uh passages in your book dedicated uh passages in your book related to this and I think my publisher related to this and I think my publisher related to this and I think my publisher wanted that yeah it was not me it was wanted that yeah it was not me it was wanted that yeah it was not me it was like my publisher really wanted to have like my publisher really wanted to have like my publisher really wanted to have a little discussion about that so I was a little discussion about that so I was a little discussion about that so I was like okay well I think it you know it like okay well I think it you know it like okay well I think it you know it points to a larger theme which is I points to a larger theme which is I points to a larger theme which is I think for a lot of people who already do think for a lot of people who already do think for a lot of people who already do these practices these practices these practices um there's no shock there yeah um for um there's no shock there yeah um for um there's no shock there yeah um for people that do not do deliberate cold people that do not do deliberate cold people that do not do deliberate cold exposure or sauna I think that exposure or sauna I think that exposure or sauna I think that um you know there is this idea perhaps um you know there is this idea perhaps um you know there is this idea perhaps that oh you know these are that oh you know these are that oh you know these are um Traditions that are are kind of um Traditions that are are kind of um Traditions that are are kind of Fringe or that they're cut and I just I Fringe or that they're cut and I just I Fringe or that they're cut and I just I want to um cue that point because want to um cue that point because want to um cue that point because there's so many things that are there's so many things that are there's so many things that are happening right now in biomedical happening right now in biomedical happening right now in biomedical research and Medicine you know serious research and Medicine you know serious research and Medicine you know serious quality peer-reviewed studies published quality peer-reviewed studies published quality peer-reviewed studies published in excellent journals like your paper on in excellent journals like your paper on in excellent journals like your paper on things like deliberate cold exposure things like deliberate cold exposure things like deliberate cold exposure sauna sauna sauna um the use of particular supplements
1:47um the use of particular supplements um the use of particular supplements natural natural herbs and supplements I natural natural herbs and supplements I natural natural herbs and supplements I mean there's an entire branch of the mean there's an entire branch of the mean there's an entire branch of the National Institutes of Health in the National Institutes of Health in the National Institutes of Health in the United States dedicated just to the United States dedicated just to the United States dedicated just to the study of supplements and behavioral study of supplements and behavioral study of supplements and behavioral interventions for health like meditation interventions for health like meditation interventions for health like meditation and breath work really incredible it's and breath work really incredible it's and breath work really incredible it's really incredible and psychedelics of really incredible and psychedelics of really incredible and psychedelics of course being something that for a long course being something that for a long course being something that for a long time was part of a certain community and time was part of a certain community and time was part of a certain community and feel and now is being um frankly adopted feel and now is being um frankly adopted feel and now is being um frankly adopted by mainstream medicine even Pharma so it by mainstream medicine even Pharma so it by mainstream medicine even Pharma so it the the times are changing the the times are changing the the times are changing um and so uh yes I think it's important um and so uh yes I think it's important um and so uh yes I think it's important to know that um it's perfectly to know that um it's perfectly to know that um it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged to wear acceptable and encouraged to wear acceptable and encouraged to wear clothing absolutely absolutely yeah clothing absolutely absolutely yeah clothing absolutely absolutely yeah yeah and one other thing that I wanted yeah and one other thing that I wanted yeah and one other thing that I wanted to to mention going back to your to to mention going back to your to to mention going back to your questions around with there were any questions around with there were any questions around with there were any observations in the studies which would observations in the studies which would observations in the studies which would really maybe haven't discussed yet and really maybe haven't discussed yet and really maybe haven't discussed yet and maybe it's in in the back of the the maybe it's in in the back of the the maybe it's in in the back of the the paper and not mentioned that much was paper and not mentioned that much was paper and not mentioned that much was one of the winter swimmers didn't have one of the winter swimmers didn't have one of the winter swimmers didn't have any brown fat when we measured him zero any brown fat when we measured him zero any brown fat when we measured him zero zero and in we do see this um in in in
1:48zero and in we do see this um in in in zero and in we do see this um in in in previous studies as well that some previous studies as well that some previous studies as well that some humans don't have any brown fat was he humans don't have any brown fat was he humans don't have any brown fat was he did he carry a lot of white fat adipose did he carry a lot of white fat adipose did he carry a lot of white fat adipose tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't no he was not obese because that he no he was not obese because that he no he was not obese because that he would not have been in the study then oh would not have been in the study then oh would not have been in the study then oh right yes you mentioned this earlier right yes you mentioned this earlier right yes you mentioned this earlier forgive me no no but he was um but what forgive me no no but he was um but what forgive me no no but he was um but what I did observe before I knew that he I did observe before I knew that he I did observe before I knew that he didn't have any brand for West that didn't have any brand for West that didn't have any brand for West that during the cooling experiment where I during the cooling experiment where I during the cooling experiment where I cooled them for uh two hours before they cooled them for uh two hours before they cooled them for uh two hours before they go into the Pet City scanner uh he go into the Pet City scanner uh he go into the Pet City scanner uh he was not able to control his shivering was not able to control his shivering was not able to control his shivering like the winter swimmers could like the winter swimmers could like the winter swimmers could so he got he got very cold very easily so he got he got very cold very easily so he got he got very cold very easily uh compared to the others so and without uh compared to the others so and without uh compared to the others so and without I didn't know what was different about I didn't know what was different about I didn't know what was different about him but we could all or me and the three him but we could all or me and the three him but we could all or me and the three others were working on the experiment we others were working on the experiment we others were working on the experiment we were like okay what's going on because were like okay what's going on because were like okay what's going on because we turned down the the temperature but
1:49we turned down the the temperature but we turned down the the temperature but he started like shivering and then we he started like shivering and then we he started like shivering and then we had to turn it up again and it was just had to turn it up again and it was just had to turn it up again and it was just all over the place the temperature is all over the place the temperature is all over the place the temperature is not it wasn't that controlled like the not it wasn't that controlled like the not it wasn't that controlled like the others it was pretty similar protocol I others it was pretty similar protocol I others it was pretty similar protocol I could just do pretty much the same could just do pretty much the same could just do pretty much the same because they were same size and also because they were same size and also because they were same size and also same gender so it was easier to like same gender so it was easier to like same gender so it was easier to like foresee what was going to happen and foresee what was going to happen and foresee what was going to happen and when will they start Shiver I quickly when will they start Shiver I quickly when will they start Shiver I quickly learned that but with this subject it learned that but with this subject it learned that but with this subject it was just with this volunteer was just was just with this volunteer was just was just with this volunteer was just very much different and then when we very much different and then when we very much different and then when we scanned him and didn't find any problem scanned him and didn't find any problem scanned him and didn't find any problem I I I didn't even think about it so when I I I didn't even think about it so when I I I didn't even think about it so when we scanned him we didn't see anything I we scanned him we didn't see anything I we scanned him we didn't see anything I told the Pet City people to like oh you told the Pet City people to like oh you told the Pet City people to like oh you put up the wrong uh scanning explain the put up the wrong uh scanning explain the put up the wrong uh scanning explain the technology yeah the technology was like technology yeah the technology was like technology yeah the technology was like this scanning looked like the thermal this scanning looked like the thermal this scanning looked like the thermal neutral day the thermal comfortable day neutral day the thermal comfortable day neutral day the thermal comfortable day where we also scanned them to see if where we also scanned them to see if where we also scanned them to see if they have any brown fat so you have made they have any brown fat so you have made they have any brown fat so you have made a mistake I was pretty sure and the a mistake I was pretty sure and the a mistake I was pretty sure and the re-analysis and analyzed this um re-analysis and analyzed this um re-analysis and analyzed this um scanning and they just concluded well it
1:50scanning and they just concluded well it scanning and they just concluded well it the scanning was fine the experiment the scanning was fine the experiment the scanning was fine the experiment went well it was just that he didn't went well it was just that he didn't went well it was just that he didn't have any brown fat so he was like but we have any brown fat so he was like but we have any brown fat so he was like but we just in the paper called a brown fat just in the paper called a brown fat just in the paper called a brown fat negative so he didn't have any and in in negative so he didn't have any and in in negative so he didn't have any and in in my studies it would be called a knockout my studies it would be called a knockout my studies it would be called a knockout so it didn't have any brown fan so what so it didn't have any brown fan so what so it didn't have any brown fan so what the observation with him and I think the observation with him and I think the observation with him and I think that would be that's interesting is that that would be that's interesting is that that would be that's interesting is that he both he both he both shivered very early on and didn't shivered very early on and didn't shivered very early on and didn't regulate his temperature as well he also regulate his temperature as well he also regulate his temperature as well he also told me that then he was like F5 on the told me that then he was like F5 on the told me that then he was like F5 on the scale of how comfortable he felt with scale of how comfortable he felt with scale of how comfortable he felt with the cold the cold the cold um um so it was from one to ten and five being so it was from one to ten and five being so it was from one to ten and five being thermal comfortable and 10 being very thermal comfortable and 10 being very thermal comfortable and 10 being very cold and and one very hard so on this cold and and one very hard so on this cold and and one very hard so on this like scale up and up and down like scale up and up and down like scale up and up and down and he he was like more up and down on and he he was like more up and down on and he he was like more up and down on this scale than any of the others it was this scale than any of the others it was this scale than any of the others it was an observation that I did an observation that I did an observation that I did um um what we did see in his blood samples
1:51what we did see in his blood samples what we did see in his blood samples also that his blood samples looked a bit also that his blood samples looked a bit also that his blood samples looked a bit more like the control group more like the control group more like the control group um also his insulin levels were like the um also his insulin levels were like the um also his insulin levels were like the control group so a little bit higher control group so a little bit higher control group so a little bit higher than the other winter swimmers and he than the other winter swimmers and he than the other winter swimmers and he also had also had also had um um his blood glucose clearance was not as his blood glucose clearance was not as his blood glucose clearance was not as fast as fast as fast as um as the the other winter swimmers so um as the the other winter swimmers so um as the the other winter swimmers so he was like an outlier what we call it he was like an outlier what we call it he was like an outlier what we call it an in the analysis we also had to take an in the analysis we also had to take an in the analysis we also had to take him out of the analysis because he was him out of the analysis because he was him out of the analysis because he was an outlier an outlier an outlier um so the results showing that the brown um so the results showing that the brown um so the results showing that the brown fat fat fat is a more efficiently activated in the is a more efficiently activated in the is a more efficiently activated in the winter swimmers is without him having winter swimmers is without him having winter swimmers is without him having him in that group but it didn't ruin the him in that group but it didn't ruin the him in that group but it didn't ruin the study if we I tried to put him in as study if we I tried to put him in as study if we I tried to put him in as well and didn't it didn't ruin the well and didn't it didn't ruin the well and didn't it didn't ruin the results or anything but just to to keep results or anything but just to to keep results or anything but just to to keep it more clear we put we took him out of it more clear we put we took him out of it more clear we put we took him out of the analysis yeah so he was a mutant a the analysis yeah so he was a mutant a the analysis yeah so he was a mutant a knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out there um very interesting so if you there um very interesting so if you there um very interesting so if you shiver early
1:52shiver early shiver early um then perhaps you have less brown fat um then perhaps you have less brown fat um then perhaps you have less brown fat to begin with although it's hard to to begin with although it's hard to to begin with although it's hard to conclude from one person that's sort of conclude from one person that's sort of conclude from one person that's sort of the the the implication there oh you the the the implication there oh you the the the implication there oh you haven't adapted to the code so you haven't adapted to the code so you haven't adapted to the code so you should build that up yeah right so in should build that up yeah right so in should build that up yeah right so in addition to looking at regulation of addition to looking at regulation of addition to looking at regulation of blood sugar blood sugar blood sugar Brown fat Brown fat metabolism and so on were there any metabolism and so on were there any metabolism and so on were there any markers that you examined in the markers that you examined in the markers that you examined in the deliberate cold exposure group as deliberate cold exposure group as deliberate cold exposure group as compared to controls that reveal to you compared to controls that reveal to you compared to controls that reveal to you that deliberate cold exposure could have that deliberate cold exposure could have that deliberate cold exposure could have additional benefits additional benefits additional benefits um say for uh immune system function or um say for uh immune system function or um say for uh immune system function or for any function for that matter for any function for that matter for any function for that matter before we looked at inflammation of before we looked at inflammation of before we looked at inflammation of course we measure of the outcome of course we measure of the outcome of course we measure of the outcome of blood pressure and so on but we also blood pressure and so on but we also blood pressure and so on but we also measured the il-6 in the study just to measured the il-6 in the study just to measured the il-6 in the study just to see also an inflammatory see also an inflammatory see also an inflammatory anti-inflammatory marker so il-6 went up anti-inflammatory marker so il-6 went up anti-inflammatory marker so il-6 went up and it also follows with the il-10 so and it also follows with the il-10 so and it also follows with the il-10 so that is like also very known in the that is like also very known in the that is like also very known in the literature so we measured that and I
1:53literature so we measured that and I literature so we measured that and I think it's very important to to think think it's very important to to think think it's very important to to think about the code exposure the heat about the code exposure the heat about the code exposure the heat exposure as something that then lowers exposure as something that then lowers exposure as something that then lowers the inflammation in the body and would the inflammation in the body and would the inflammation in the body and would if we can do that we will have an open if we can do that we will have an open if we can do that we will have an open door for door for door for um preventing lifestyle diseases right um preventing lifestyle diseases right um preventing lifestyle diseases right so for so for so for um type 2 diabetes but actually also for um type 2 diabetes but actually also for um type 2 diabetes but actually also for some mental diseases as well so as known some mental diseases as well so as known some mental diseases as well so as known as depression and anxiety and also as depression and anxiety and also as depression and anxiety and also Alzheimer's disease which are all Alzheimer's disease which are all Alzheimer's disease which are all associated in research also newer associated in research also newer associated in research also newer research showing that a that research showing that a that research showing that a that inflammation increases the risk of inflammation increases the risk of inflammation increases the risk of depression anxiety and Alzheimer's depression anxiety and Alzheimer's depression anxiety and Alzheimer's neurological diseases so if we can neurological diseases so if we can neurological diseases so if we can decrease inflammation in the body we decrease inflammation in the body we decrease inflammation in the body we will decrease modern lifestyle diseases will decrease modern lifestyle diseases will decrease modern lifestyle diseases but also these increasing but also these increasing but also these increasing mental diseases that we see in these mental diseases that we see in these mental diseases that we see in these modern lifestyle times modern lifestyle times modern lifestyle times um so I think that um so I think that um so I think that it's I think it's very interesting that it's I think it's very interesting that it's I think it's very interesting that we can go out in nature and we can use we can go out in nature and we can use we can go out in nature and we can use these natural stressors and it I don't these natural stressors and it I don't
1:54these natural stressors and it I don't want to have it sound very romantic or want to have it sound very romantic or want to have it sound very romantic or anything it's just it's just exposure to anything it's just it's just exposure to anything it's just it's just exposure to temperature actually just a colder to temperature actually just a colder to temperature actually just a colder to heat that is going to trick our body heat that is going to trick our body heat that is going to trick our body into a natural state again and reset it into a natural state again and reset it into a natural state again and reset it where the the homeostasis the balance where the the homeostasis the balance where the the homeostasis the balance has is lost a bit so the body is going has is lost a bit so the body is going has is lost a bit so the body is going to repair itself in that way and I think to repair itself in that way and I think to repair itself in that way and I think it's beautiful that we can do that just it's beautiful that we can do that just it's beautiful that we can do that just by changing the temperature of our body by changing the temperature of our body by changing the temperature of our body and although people are very scared of and although people are very scared of and although people are very scared of doing this because in our times we have doing this because in our times we have doing this because in our times we have been away from cold away from Heat been away from cold away from Heat been away from cold away from Heat temperature for some for decades now temperature for some for decades now temperature for some for decades now um since we isolated our houses better um since we isolated our houses better um since we isolated our houses better and we are more sedentary we also sit and we are more sedentary we also sit and we are more sedentary we also sit more indoor we don't move as much so more indoor we don't move as much so more indoor we don't move as much so this very modern sedentary lifestyle has this very modern sedentary lifestyle has this very modern sedentary lifestyle has made us more temperature comfortable made us more temperature comfortable made us more temperature comfortable just neutral so no no wonder I mean that just neutral so no no wonder I mean that just neutral so no no wonder I mean that obesity is increasing we don't expose obesity is increasing we don't expose obesity is increasing we don't expose ourselves to the Natural stresses that
1:55ourselves to the Natural stresses that ourselves to the Natural stresses that we did earlier on we did earlier on we did earlier on um in in our environment but also about um in in our environment but also about um in in our environment but also about so maybe the 70s the 60s where we so maybe the 70s the 60s where we so maybe the 70s the 60s where we started having more like comfortable started having more like comfortable started having more like comfortable Lifestyles right and obesity increases Lifestyles right and obesity increases Lifestyles right and obesity increases in the in the 80s we can see that from in the in the 80s we can see that from in the in the 80s we can see that from statistics so I think that if we can statistics so I think that if we can statistics so I think that if we can take in cold and heat and you mentioned take in cold and heat and you mentioned take in cold and heat and you mentioned other things also before but of course other things also before but of course other things also before but of course exercise is very important here and also exercise is very important here and also exercise is very important here and also a bit of fasting actually because it all a bit of fasting actually because it all a bit of fasting actually because it all increases the Hermetic stress in the increases the Hermetic stress in the increases the Hermetic stress in the body so it's it doesn't have to be other body so it's it doesn't have to be other body so it's it doesn't have to be other than natural stresses to the body which than natural stresses to the body which than natural stresses to the body which then could keep us in that Natural then could keep us in that Natural then could keep us in that Natural Balance again could we talk about what I Balance again could we talk about what I Balance again could we talk about what I refer to as the soberg principle which refer to as the soberg principle which refer to as the soberg principle which is to end on cold and the reason I is to end on cold and the reason I is to end on cold and the reason I called it the sober principle is because called it the sober principle is because called it the sober principle is because um in reviewing oh by the way I wasn't a um in reviewing oh by the way I wasn't a um in reviewing oh by the way I wasn't a official reviewer of your paper but I official reviewer of your paper but I official reviewer of your paper but I mean in reading and um reviewing your mean in reading and um reviewing your mean in reading and um reviewing your paper for its after published Contents I paper for its after published Contents I paper for its after published Contents I noticed that you had people end on cold
1:56noticed that you had people end on cold noticed that you had people end on cold and this has been a long-standing debate and this has been a long-standing debate and this has been a long-standing debate in the the uh deliberate cold exposure in the the uh deliberate cold exposure in the the uh deliberate cold exposure Community should you warm up with a warm Community should you warm up with a warm Community should you warm up with a warm shower afterwards or get back in the shower afterwards or get back in the shower afterwards or get back in the sauna what should you end on cold or end sauna what should you end on cold or end sauna what should you end on cold or end on Heat and the sober principle says end on Heat and the sober principle says end on Heat and the sober principle says end on cold as I understand it on cold as I understand it on cold as I understand it in order to force your body to heat in order to force your body to heat in order to force your body to heat itself back up and thereby increase itself back up and thereby increase itself back up and thereby increase metabolism further still is that right metabolism further still is that right metabolism further still is that right yes so when you when you end on the cold yes so when you when you end on the cold yes so when you when you end on the cold you you force your body to heat up by you you force your body to heat up by you you force your body to heat up by itself and that will require that you itself and that will require that you itself and that will require that you activate you keep your brown fat activate you keep your brown fat activate you keep your brown fat activated and also your muscles which is activated and also your muscles which is activated and also your muscles which is a good thing it's a good collaboration a good thing it's a good collaboration a good thing it's a good collaboration so keep your thermogenesis up and that's so keep your thermogenesis up and that's so keep your thermogenesis up and that's like an an exercise even when you go like an an exercise even when you go like an an exercise even when you go home so in that way you don't have to home so in that way you don't have to home so in that way you don't have to think about your cold exposure or think about your cold exposure or think about your cold exposure or dipping in in your plunge or open C or dipping in in your plunge or open C or dipping in in your plunge or open C or what it is as just a an exercise that what it is as just a an exercise that what it is as just a an exercise that you do for one to two minutes and then you do for one to two minutes and then you do for one to two minutes and then it's over if you end on the code you
1:57it's over if you end on the code you it's over if you end on the code you have an exercise for your body going on have an exercise for your body going on have an exercise for your body going on for hours afterwards and that's not only for hours afterwards and that's not only for hours afterwards and that's not only on your metabolism but it's also going on your metabolism but it's also going on your metabolism but it's also going to keep your neurotransmitters activated to keep your neurotransmitters activated to keep your neurotransmitters activated as well and increase that because your as well and increase that because your as well and increase that because your body is still cold so you need that body is still cold so you need that body is still cold so you need that those neurotransmitters to activate the those neurotransmitters to activate the those neurotransmitters to activate the brown fat as well so that's going to brown fat as well so that's going to brown fat as well so that's going to make your brown fat cells more efficient make your brown fat cells more efficient make your brown fat cells more efficient and also your muscle cells more and also your muscle cells more and also your muscle cells more efficient so increasing mitochondria in efficient so increasing mitochondria in efficient so increasing mitochondria in the cells which will then generate heat the cells which will then generate heat the cells which will then generate heat very fast so if you have done this for a very fast so if you have done this for a very fast so if you have done this for a few times so maybe three four five times few times so maybe three four five times few times so maybe three four five times um um being new to this but have tried it a being new to this but have tried it a being new to this but have tried it a few times you will notice a switch where few times you will notice a switch where few times you will notice a switch where you like feel that you get easily warmer you like feel that you get easily warmer you like feel that you get easily warmer and you can keep yourself warmer and and you can keep yourself warmer and and you can keep yourself warmer and that is also what we've shown in in my that is also what we've shown in in my that is also what we've shown in in my studies that the the winter swimmers studies that the the winter swimmers studies that the the winter swimmers were physically warmer on the skin were physically warmer on the skin were physically warmer on the skin compared to the control group so they compared to the control group so they compared to the control group so they when they are out of the cold when when they are out of the cold when when they are out of the cold when they're out of the cold just relaxing they're out of the cold just relaxing they're out of the cold just relaxing and we tested this in in on the days and we tested this in in on the days and we tested this in in on the days where they were sleeping in the lab so
1:58where they were sleeping in the lab so where they were sleeping in the lab so we could see that they had a more we could see that they had a more we could see that they had a more activation of the brown fat a higher activation of the brown fat a higher activation of the brown fat a higher temperature so probably because they're temperature so probably because they're temperature so probably because they're also lose heat they have a high heat also lose heat they have a high heat also lose heat they have a high heat loss to the body compared to the control loss to the body compared to the control loss to the body compared to the control group group group um because they have a more vascular um because they have a more vascular um because they have a more vascular skin because of the contrast of cold and skin because of the contrast of cold and skin because of the contrast of cold and heat so they lose heat faster from the heat so they lose heat faster from the heat so they lose heat faster from the body during that day but is that a bad body during that day but is that a bad body during that day but is that a bad thing no probably not because that's thing no probably not because that's thing no probably not because that's gonna keep your brown fat and your gonna keep your brown fat and your gonna keep your brown fat and your muscles a little bit activated so we you muscles a little bit activated so we you muscles a little bit activated so we you will have to to it it has to work to will have to to it it has to work to will have to to it it has to work to keep you warm I and I would hypothesize keep you warm I and I would hypothesize keep you warm I and I would hypothesize that it also might lead to some of the that it also might lead to some of the that it also might lead to some of the um subjectively reported improvements in um subjectively reported improvements in um subjectively reported improvements in sleep because in order to fall asleep sleep because in order to fall asleep sleep because in order to fall asleep you need your core body temperature to you need your core body temperature to you need your core body temperature to drop by about one to three degrees yes drop by about one to three degrees yes drop by about one to three degrees yes so it's not just sufficient to be so it's not just sufficient to be so it's not just sufficient to be sleeping in a cold room and under the sleeping in a cold room and under the sleeping in a cold room and under the blanket you also need your body blanket you also need your body blanket you also need your body temperature to drop yes and so what temperature to drop yes and so what temperature to drop yes and so what you're saying if I understand correctly you're saying if I understand correctly you're saying if I understand correctly is that by forcing by ending on cold and
1:59is that by forcing by ending on cold and is that by forcing by ending on cold and forcing oneself to heat up naturally forcing oneself to heat up naturally forcing oneself to heat up naturally that increases the brown fat stores that increases the brown fat stores that increases the brown fat stores which I sort of see as a kind of like which I sort of see as a kind of like which I sort of see as a kind of like the oil in the candle of the Furnace the oil in the candle of the Furnace the oil in the candle of the Furnace that is thermogenesis that is thermogenesis that is thermogenesis and that and that and that in turn leads to increased heat loss in turn leads to increased heat loss in turn leads to increased heat loss which people might think oh I don't want which people might think oh I don't want which people might think oh I don't want to lose heat from the body but there are to lose heat from the body but there are to lose heat from the body but there are times when we want to lose heat from the times when we want to lose heat from the times when we want to lose heat from the body basically it sounds like what we body basically it sounds like what we body basically it sounds like what we want is to be a very efficient heating want is to be a very efficient heating want is to be a very efficient heating and cooling system yes that it's not and cooling system yes that it's not and cooling system yes that it's not about being cold or being hot it's about being cold or being hot it's about being cold or being hot it's really about keeping the system tuned really about keeping the system tuned really about keeping the system tuned well keeping the oil in the candle this well keeping the oil in the candle this well keeping the oil in the candle this brown fat brown fat brown fat um functioning yeah um functioning yeah um functioning yeah what could I ask one question about what could I ask one question about what could I ask one question about um fed or fasted is there any or rather um fed or fasted is there any or rather um fed or fasted is there any or rather are there any known benefits of doing are there any known benefits of doing are there any known benefits of doing deliberate cold exposure and or sauna deliberate cold exposure and or sauna deliberate cold exposure and or sauna fasted uh versus fasted uh versus fasted uh versus um after a meal say within the last hour um after a meal say within the last hour um after a meal say within the last hour or something of that sort I do my or something of that sort I do my or something of that sort I do my deliberate cold exposure first thing in deliberate cold exposure first thing in deliberate cold exposure first thing in the morning the morning
2:00the morning um so in general I'm fasted because I um so in general I'm fasted because I um so in general I'm fasted because I don't eat until a little bit later in don't eat until a little bit later in don't eat until a little bit later in the day yeah uh but what's known about the day yeah uh but what's known about the day yeah uh but what's known about that and was that looked at in your that and was that looked at in your that and was that looked at in your study I know you measured glucose but study I know you measured glucose but study I know you measured glucose but that was as a separate that was as a separate that was as a separate um test away from the cold away from the um test away from the cold away from the um test away from the cold away from the cold yeah but I also tested glucose on cold yeah but I also tested glucose on cold yeah but I also tested glucose on the days under cold so we measured that the days under cold so we measured that the days under cold so we measured that as well on on the cooling days as well on on the cooling days as well on on the cooling days um um specifically on fasting and fat I don't specifically on fasting and fat I don't specifically on fasting and fat I don't know I don't think that I've seen know I don't think that I've seen know I don't think that I've seen studies specifically on this okay studies specifically on this okay studies specifically on this okay um more science needed um um more science needed um um more science needed um a number of people ask about the use of a number of people ask about the use of a number of people ask about the use of deliberate cold exposure to offset some deliberate cold exposure to offset some deliberate cold exposure to offset some of the symptoms of various diseases now of the symptoms of various diseases now of the symptoms of various diseases now here we're not talking about curing here we're not talking about curing here we're not talking about curing disease we're talking about offsetting disease we're talking about offsetting disease we're talking about offsetting symptoms symptoms symptoms um one question I've seen quite often is um one question I've seen quite often is um one question I've seen quite often is whether or not people with Raynaud's whether or not people with Raynaud's whether or not people with Raynaud's syndrome this is a syndrome and my high syndrome this is a syndrome and my high syndrome this is a syndrome and my high school girlfriend had this syndrome and school girlfriend had this syndrome and school girlfriend had this syndrome and I'll never forget uh we went we're at a I'll never forget uh we went we're at a I'll never forget uh we went we're at a school dance together and um this was school dance together and um this was school dance together and um this was when we first started dating and um she when we first started dating and um she when we first started dating and um she had Ray nodes which leads to very poor
2:01had Ray nodes which leads to very poor had Ray nodes which leads to very poor blood flow to the the uh the extremities blood flow to the the uh the extremities blood flow to the the uh the extremities and um and she was very cold so she left and um and she was very cold so she left and um and she was very cold so she left to go to the bathroom and warm up her to go to the bathroom and warm up her to go to the bathroom and warm up her hands in the warm water and I was left hands in the warm water and I was left hands in the warm water and I was left standing there at the dance and people standing there at the dance and people standing there at the dance and people came up to me and asked you know why I came up to me and asked you know why I came up to me and asked you know why I was there and who I was there with and I was there and who I was there with and I was there and who I was there with and I kept telling them who I was with and kept telling them who I was with and kept telling them who I was with and they didn't believe me because they they didn't believe me because they they didn't believe me because they couldn't believe that she would be with couldn't believe that she would be with couldn't believe that she would be with me made total sense if you knew me at me made total sense if you knew me at me made total sense if you knew me at the time the time the time um I was I I was way out of my league um I was I I was way out of my league um I was I I was way out of my league with her um at the time I like to think with her um at the time I like to think with her um at the time I like to think eventually I caught up but in any case eventually I caught up but in any case eventually I caught up but in any case um she was in the bathroom for about an um she was in the bathroom for about an um she was in the bathroom for about an hour so at one point I did consider the hour so at one point I did consider the hour so at one point I did consider the possibility that she had just left but possibility that she had just left but possibility that she had just left but indeed she hadn't she warmed her hands indeed she hadn't she warmed her hands indeed she hadn't she warmed her hands back up but people with raynauds suffer back up but people with raynauds suffer back up but people with raynauds suffer from this from this from this um from this thing a very very cold um from this thing a very very cold um from this thing a very very cold extremities the um their fingertips will extremities the um their fingertips will extremities the um their fingertips will even turn blue even turn blue even turn blue um you know as if they were starting to um you know as if they were starting to um you know as if they were starting to get frostbitten it's quite dramatic get frostbitten it's quite dramatic get frostbitten it's quite dramatic um and that question gets asked whether um and that question gets asked whether um and that question gets asked whether or not there's any use of cold to try or not there's any use of cold to try or not there's any use of cold to try and increase the elasticity the and increase the elasticity the
2:02and increase the elasticity the plasticity of the of the small plasticity of the of the small plasticity of the of the small capillaries and vessels by everything capillaries and vessels by everything capillaries and vessels by everything you've described up until now it seems you've described up until now it seems you've described up until now it seems like that would be a logical thing to do like that would be a logical thing to do like that would be a logical thing to do um and in addition to that whether or um and in addition to that whether or um and in addition to that whether or not people with autoimmune conditions not people with autoimmune conditions not people with autoimmune conditions people with people with people with um any other types of conditions are um any other types of conditions are um any other types of conditions are known to benefit from deliberate cold known to benefit from deliberate cold known to benefit from deliberate cold exposure I'm not aware of any studies exposure I'm not aware of any studies exposure I'm not aware of any studies but I get asked about this a lot and but I get asked about this a lot and but I get asked about this a lot and there were a lot of questions about this there were a lot of questions about this there were a lot of questions about this for you in the Twitter feed yeah thank for you in the Twitter feed yeah thank for you in the Twitter feed yeah thank you for those you for those you for those [Music] I haven't seen any studies directed on I haven't seen any studies directed on this outcome and measuring renault's this outcome and measuring renault's this outcome and measuring renault's syndrome syndrome syndrome um I do know that it's it's um I do know that it's it's um I do know that it's it's um it's not that rare actually a problem um it's not that rare actually a problem um it's not that rare actually a problem and I know that many women or more women and I know that many women or more women and I know that many women or more women than men suffer from this than men suffer from this than men suffer from this um but logically it would help them if um but logically it would help them if um but logically it would help them if they expose their hands to cold and also they expose their hands to cold and also they expose their hands to cold and also heat to make the vest it more vascular heat to make the vest it more vascular heat to make the vest it more vascular but and I have heard from people saying
2:03but and I have heard from people saying but and I have heard from people saying that it had helped them but also heard that it had helped them but also heard that it had helped them but also heard for some others saying it didn't help for some others saying it didn't help for some others saying it didn't help them so studies are needed on this them so studies are needed on this them so studies are needed on this specific topic I think specific topic I think specific topic I think I hurt my hands when I go into the Quran I hurt my hands when I go into the Quran I hurt my hands when I go into the Quran I don't have this syndrome at all but I I don't have this syndrome at all but I I don't have this syndrome at all but I keep my hands above the water you do keep my hands above the water you do keep my hands above the water you do yeah I do that um often I take a little yeah I do that um often I take a little yeah I do that um often I take a little bit of a swim and then of course I have bit of a swim and then of course I have bit of a swim and then of course I have to have my hands in the water but it to have my hands in the water but it to have my hands in the water but it helps me when I then get back to the helps me when I then get back to the helps me when I then get back to the daddy and then take my hands up because daddy and then take my hands up because daddy and then take my hands up because then I can stand there for a little bit then I can stand there for a little bit then I can stand there for a little bit and get my one to two minutes exposure and get my one to two minutes exposure and get my one to two minutes exposure and then I can go up because then and then I can go up because then and then I can go up because then otherwise that would stop me from being otherwise that would stop me from being otherwise that would stop me from being in the water enough time that I as long in the water enough time that I as long in the water enough time that I as long as I I would like to so if people suffer as I I would like to so if people suffer as I I would like to so if people suffer from having this pain in the fingers a from having this pain in the fingers a from having this pain in the fingers a little bit it can be very intense so little bit it can be very intense so little bit it can be very intense so just take the hands up a bit from the just take the hands up a bit from the just take the hands up a bit from the water and the and that's gonna help you water and the and that's gonna help you water and the and that's gonna help you also put neoprint boots it's going to also put neoprint boots it's going to also put neoprint boots it's going to help on the feet some people have the help on the feet some people have the help on the feet some people have the hurt and feel the pain in the feed and
2:04hurt and feel the pain in the feed and hurt and feel the pain in the feed and on the ankles and that's gonna help them on the ankles and that's gonna help them on the ankles and that's gonna help them also a little bit okay so there is no also a little bit okay so there is no also a little bit okay so there is no problem with keeping hands out or feet problem with keeping hands out or feet problem with keeping hands out or feet in neoprene booties if people feel the in neoprene booties if people feel the in neoprene booties if people feel the need to do that if that's what the if need to do that if that's what the if need to do that if that's what the if pain of the hands or feet is a barrier pain of the hands or feet is a barrier pain of the hands or feet is a barrier for people doing uh Liberty called for people doing uh Liberty called for people doing uh Liberty called exposure then it seems it would be okay exposure then it seems it would be okay exposure then it seems it would be okay to do to keep hands out or to keep your to do to keep hands out or to keep your to do to keep hands out or to keep your feet Yes because then you you do get the feet Yes because then you you do get the feet Yes because then you you do get the exposure but of course hands and feet exposure but of course hands and feet exposure but of course hands and feet are very potent places in your body to are very potent places in your body to are very potent places in your body to get a fast activation of your nervous get a fast activation of your nervous get a fast activation of your nervous system of course but if you can just you system of course but if you can just you system of course but if you can just you can also just dip them and then take can also just dip them and then take can also just dip them and then take them off it's gonna still gonna activate them off it's gonna still gonna activate them off it's gonna still gonna activate that but you have your full body is that but you have your full body is that but you have your full body is covered in in the co-preceptors you'll covered in in the co-preceptors you'll covered in in the co-preceptors you'll have a full activation anyways so you have a full activation anyways so you have a full activation anyways so you are providing very reassuring are providing very reassuring are providing very reassuring information to people because I know a information to people because I know a information to people because I know a number of people that do not like to put number of people that do not like to put number of people that do not like to put their hands in I find that the more of their hands in I find that the more of their hands in I find that the more of my body I get in the more comfortable I
2:05my body I get in the more comfortable I my body I get in the more comfortable I am it's like I don't know if it's am it's like I don't know if it's am it's like I don't know if it's psychologically and or physiologically I psychologically and or physiologically I psychologically and or physiologically I find that if where there's an interface find that if where there's an interface find that if where there's an interface between the water and the cold it's most between the water and the cold it's most between the water and the cold it's most uncomfortable so I prefer to just get uncomfortable so I prefer to just get uncomfortable so I prefer to just get everything under I keep my head out everything under I keep my head out everything under I keep my head out although I these days I've been dunking although I these days I've been dunking although I these days I've been dunking all the way in and then coming out and all the way in and then coming out and all the way in and then coming out and then dunking once more with my head then dunking once more with my head then dunking once more with my head under before I get out after the the under before I get out after the the under before I get out after the the plunge plunge um that raised a different question now um that raised a different question now um that raised a different question now we're getting into kind of the we're getting into kind of the we're getting into kind of the practicalities of deliberate cold practicalities of deliberate cold practicalities of deliberate cold exposure which I think are important exposure which I think are important exposure which I think are important um sometimes I'll experience and I hear um sometimes I'll experience and I hear um sometimes I'll experience and I hear from a lot of people that they'll get a from a lot of people that they'll get a from a lot of people that they'll get a kind of back of the head headache at the kind of back of the head headache at the kind of back of the head headache at the interface of the of the water interface of the of the water interface of the of the water um you know when they're in doing cold um you know when they're in doing cold um you know when they're in doing cold immersion to the neck immersion to the neck immersion to the neck um okay I assume this has to do with um okay I assume this has to do with um okay I assume this has to do with blood flow that there's vasoconstriction blood flow that there's vasoconstriction blood flow that there's vasoconstriction right up until the neck and in the right up until the neck and in the right up until the neck and in the region surrounding it but that maybe region surrounding it but that maybe region surrounding it but that maybe there's still blood flow to the head but there's still blood flow to the head but there's still blood flow to the head but do we know what the origin of these um do we know what the origin of these um do we know what the origin of these um headaches is and again this doesn't headaches is and again this doesn't headaches is and again this doesn't happen for everybody but some people do happen for everybody but some people do happen for everybody but some people do experience them okay yeah I haven't experience them okay yeah I haven't experience them okay yeah I haven't really heard about that one specific really heard about that one specific
2:06really heard about that one specific so but I would say that there are so but I would say that there are so but I would say that there are different reasons for maybe keeping your different reasons for maybe keeping your different reasons for maybe keeping your head out of the water but it seems like head out of the water but it seems like head out of the water but it seems like maybe for some that could be a reason maybe for some that could be a reason maybe for some that could be a reason for like just getting like a quick head for like just getting like a quick head for like just getting like a quick head dunk all the way in yeah that's what dunk all the way in yeah that's what dunk all the way in yeah that's what I've started doing to eliminate I wasn't I've started doing to eliminate I wasn't I've started doing to eliminate I wasn't getting headaches but I could I noticed getting headaches but I could I noticed getting headaches but I could I noticed that interface okay and I wasn't in the that interface okay and I wasn't in the that interface okay and I wasn't in the rest of the experience it so much rest of the experience it so much rest of the experience it so much experience of it so much so I started experience of it so much so I started experience of it so much so I started dunking all the way in I noticed in some dunking all the way in I noticed in some dunking all the way in I noticed in some of the photos that you've put out of the photos that you've put out of the photos that you've put out um and in your book that you'll um and in your book that you'll um and in your book that you'll sometimes wear a cap while you go in sometimes wear a cap while you go in sometimes wear a cap while you go in yeah okay and well it comes from uh yeah okay and well it comes from uh yeah okay and well it comes from uh different reasons uh so let's talk about different reasons uh so let's talk about different reasons uh so let's talk about some of the physiological reasons so some of the physiological reasons so some of the physiological reasons so when you submerged in cold water up to when you submerged in cold water up to when you submerged in cold water up to the neck and study have shown and this the neck and study have shown and this the neck and study have shown and this is from Denmark studies from Peace is from Denmark studies from Peace is from Denmark studies from Peace hospital hospital hospital um that when you submerge into cold um that when you submerge into cold um that when you submerge into cold water up to the neck at zero degrees uh water up to the neck at zero degrees uh water up to the neck at zero degrees uh so zero degrees Celsius very cold and so zero degrees Celsius very cold and so zero degrees Celsius very cold and you have a decreased blood flow to the you have a decreased blood flow to the you have a decreased blood flow to the brain by around 30 to 40 percent and
2:07brain by around 30 to 40 percent and brain by around 30 to 40 percent and makes sense because you activate the makes sense because you activate the makes sense because you activate the simple pathetic nervous system and and simple pathetic nervous system and and simple pathetic nervous system and and therefore you will have a less blood therefore you will have a less blood therefore you will have a less blood flow to the brain makes you maybe a flow to the brain makes you maybe a flow to the brain makes you maybe a little bit dizzier and proof again that little bit dizzier and proof again that little bit dizzier and proof again that you're you need a heart more than a you're you need a heart more than a you're you need a heart more than a brain because when the sympathetic brain because when the sympathetic brain because when the sympathetic nervous system gets activated uh blood nervous system gets activated uh blood nervous system gets activated uh blood flow is maintained to the heart to keep flow is maintained to the heart to keep flow is maintained to the heart to keep you alive but obviously taken away from you alive but obviously taken away from you alive but obviously taken away from the brain to keep you from thinking the brain to keep you from thinking the brain to keep you from thinking that's why it's hard to think when that's why it's hard to think when that's why it's hard to think when you're stressed yeah well the muscles you're stressed yeah well the muscles you're stressed yeah well the muscles and and your vital organs need to you and and your vital organs need to you and and your vital organs need to you have to be able to run away from that have to be able to run away from that have to be able to run away from that tiger right the rationale of its total tiger right the rationale of its total tiger right the rationale of its total sense and who am I to disagree with sense and who am I to disagree with sense and who am I to disagree with Mother Nature right well but yeah so one Mother Nature right well but yeah so one Mother Nature right well but yeah so one of the reasons being that you should of the reasons being that you should of the reasons being that you should keep your head out of the water is that keep your head out of the water is that keep your head out of the water is that you could increase that decrease in you could increase that decrease in you could increase that decrease in blood flow to the brain further if you blood flow to the brain further if you blood flow to the brain further if you dump the head so there's just a very dump the head so there's just a very dump the head so there's just a very nice paper from um from a a research nice paper from um from a a research nice paper from um from a a research group in Canada where they have group in Canada where they have group in Canada where they have collectively looked at different papers collectively looked at different papers collectively looked at different papers where they compared heat loss in a group where they compared heat loss in a group where they compared heat loss in a group in the papers where they dunk the head
2:08in the papers where they dunk the head in the papers where they dunk the head and compared to heat loss uh submerging and compared to heat loss uh submerging and compared to heat loss uh submerging up to the neck to see how much extra up to the neck to see how much extra up to the neck to see how much extra heat do we lose from our core when we heat do we lose from our core when we heat do we lose from our core when we dump the head so and I think it's very dump the head so and I think it's very dump the head so and I think it's very interesting that if you submerge up to interesting that if you submerge up to interesting that if you submerge up to the neck you have a heat loss of 11 from the neck you have a heat loss of 11 from the neck you have a heat loss of 11 from the body core the body core the body core and when you then also dunk the head you and when you then also dunk the head you and when you then also dunk the head you will increase that heat loss rate by 36 will increase that heat loss rate by 36 will increase that heat loss rate by 36 percent percent percent so that means I'm not saying that I'm so that means I'm not saying that I'm so that means I'm not saying that I'm not I'm not here to say what is right not I'm not here to say what is right not I'm not here to say what is right and what is wrong I just think that and what is wrong I just think that and what is wrong I just think that people should know the information so people should know the information so people should know the information so they can for themselves evaluate what is they can for themselves evaluate what is they can for themselves evaluate what is best for them but if you increase your best for them but if you increase your best for them but if you increase your heat loss rate by 36 percent from your heat loss rate by 36 percent from your heat loss rate by 36 percent from your core that's going to increase your after core that's going to increase your after core that's going to increase your after drop which we touched upon a little bit drop which we touched upon a little bit drop which we touched upon a little bit earlier even further so that's meaning earlier even further so that's meaning earlier even further so that's meaning that you are closer to hypothermia than that you are closer to hypothermia than that you are closer to hypothermia than you are if you just submerge up to the you are if you just submerge up to the you are if you just submerge up to the neck so you should really think about neck so you should really think about neck so you should really think about whether this is like something that you
2:09whether this is like something that you whether this is like something that you want to do or if it's just better for want to do or if it's just better for want to do or if it's just better for you not to get that code in your core you not to get that code in your core you not to get that code in your core the beanie is also because I have a the beanie is also because I have a the beanie is also because I have a little bit of sensitive ears so meaning little bit of sensitive ears so meaning little bit of sensitive ears so meaning that if there's wind and because we swim that if there's wind and because we swim that if there's wind and because we swim in the open sea in Denmark we have a lot in the open sea in Denmark we have a lot in the open sea in Denmark we have a lot of wind our when our conditions are just of wind our when our conditions are just of wind our when our conditions are just very rainy very windy and when the very rainy very windy and when the very rainy very windy and when the temperature is also freezing you could temperature is also freezing you could temperature is also freezing you could get this what is that called um so very get this what is that called um so very get this what is that called um so very cold and light-headed just from wind so cold and light-headed just from wind so cold and light-headed just from wind so if you also submerge into cold water and if you also submerge into cold water and if you also submerge into cold water and you then get up you could you would get you then get up you could you would get you then get up you could you would get a brain freeze immediately so it is a brain freeze immediately so it is a brain freeze immediately so it is enough to just go up to the neck enough to just go up to the neck enough to just go up to the neck wherever you need to just not get dizzy wherever you need to just not get dizzy wherever you need to just not get dizzy also because the the heat loss is also because the the heat loss is also because the the heat loss is increased of course but also the blood increased of course but also the blood increased of course but also the blood flow to the brain has decreased so the flow to the brain has decreased so the flow to the brain has decreased so the beanie will keep you a little bit warmer beanie will keep you a little bit warmer beanie will keep you a little bit warmer so you can stay for one to two minutes so you can stay for one to two minutes so you can stay for one to two minutes so it's just a way of like getting so it's just a way of like getting so it's just a way of like getting around some of the conditions also so around some of the conditions also so around some of the conditions also so people can choose that if they they feel
2:10people can choose that if they they feel people can choose that if they they feel that but it's quite normal to do in in that but it's quite normal to do in in that but it's quite normal to do in in Scandinavia whereabini love it and so Scandinavia whereabini love it and so Scandinavia whereabini love it and so for those of you afraid of doing a for those of you afraid of doing a for those of you afraid of doing a two-minute cold shower what uh Dr Silver two-minute cold shower what uh Dr Silver two-minute cold shower what uh Dr Silver just described uh let's uh you see how just described uh let's uh you see how just described uh let's uh you see how she and others are capable of doing she and others are capable of doing she and others are capable of doing things far harder than that things far harder than that things far harder than that um when the way you describe it with the um when the way you describe it with the um when the way you describe it with the cold wind in Scandinavia and uh cold wind in Scandinavia and uh cold wind in Scandinavia and uh um is is quite striking along the lines um is is quite striking along the lines um is is quite striking along the lines of covering the head um there's this um of covering the head um there's this um of covering the head um there's this um seemingly paradoxical seemingly paradoxical seemingly paradoxical uh thing of people going into hot saunas uh thing of people going into hot saunas uh thing of people going into hot saunas and wearing wool caps you know if you go and wearing wool caps you know if you go and wearing wool caps you know if you go to a Banya or you go to a sauna and to a Banya or you go to a sauna and to a Banya or you go to a sauna and there are people who are there are people who are there are people who are um well from Eastern Europe or typically um well from Eastern Europe or typically um well from Eastern Europe or typically or Finland or or Finland or or Finland or um Russia or Ukraine or elsewhere what um Russia or Ukraine or elsewhere what um Russia or Ukraine or elsewhere what you'll see is that many of them are you'll see is that many of them are you'll see is that many of them are wearing wool caps in the sauna which wearing wool caps in the sauna which wearing wool caps in the sauna which many people think is to make it hotter many people think is to make it hotter many people think is to make it hotter that's actually not the case it actually that's actually not the case it actually that's actually not the case it actually insulates you from the heat environment insulates you from the heat environment insulates you from the heat environment the urge the sense of urgency to get out the urge the sense of urgency to get out the urge the sense of urgency to get out of the hot sauna is a brain-driven
2:11of the hot sauna is a brain-driven of the hot sauna is a brain-driven mechanism and so um the reason that mechanism and so um the reason that mechanism and so um the reason that people wear wool hats in the saunas it people wear wool hats in the saunas it people wear wool hats in the saunas it actually lets you stay in the sauna actually lets you stay in the sauna actually lets you stay in the sauna longer because it takes a lot of heat to longer because it takes a lot of heat to longer because it takes a lot of heat to the skin before you feel that you you the skin before you feel that you you the skin before you feel that you you half quote unquote have to get out half quote unquote have to get out half quote unquote have to get out whereas so when you insulate the brain whereas so when you insulate the brain whereas so when you insulate the brain you don't get that signal it's pretty you don't get that signal it's pretty you don't get that signal it's pretty interesting I've tried this before just interesting I've tried this before just interesting I've tried this before just by putting a towel over my head in the by putting a towel over my head in the by putting a towel over my head in the sauna and you can stay in there you know sauna and you can stay in there you know sauna and you can stay in there you know much more easily and for for much longer much more easily and for for much longer much more easily and for for much longer you know as we talk about these you know as we talk about these you know as we talk about these different stimuli for um the hormetic different stimuli for um the hormetic different stimuli for um the hormetic response the adaptation distress you response the adaptation distress you response the adaptation distress you know it occurs to me that the the big know it occurs to me that the the big know it occurs to me that the the big ones in our evolutionary history have ones in our evolutionary history have ones in our evolutionary history have been light right I mean you were talking been light right I mean you were talking been light right I mean you were talking about seasonal changes about seasonal changes about seasonal changes um we know they're especially as you go um we know they're especially as you go um we know they're especially as you go up to Nordic countries there are up to Nordic countries there are up to Nordic countries there are seasonal changes in the amount of Light seasonal changes in the amount of Light seasonal changes in the amount of Light by time of year dramatic ones in fact by time of year dramatic ones in fact by time of year dramatic ones in fact less so at the equator of course yeah um less so at the equator of course yeah um less so at the equator of course yeah um light temperature light temperature light temperature food movement and it it's sort of
2:12food movement and it it's sort of food movement and it it's sort of interesting and at the same time perhaps interesting and at the same time perhaps interesting and at the same time perhaps it should have been obvious to us that it should have been obvious to us that it should have been obvious to us that there are stimuli that our bodies have there are stimuli that our bodies have there are stimuli that our bodies have evolved to adapt to in very powerful evolved to adapt to in very powerful evolved to adapt to in very powerful ways and so the idea that temperature ways and so the idea that temperature ways and so the idea that temperature heat and cold could evoke these heat and cold could evoke these heat and cold could evoke these tremendous physiological changes that tremendous physiological changes that tremendous physiological changes that are beneficial for us probably shouldn't are beneficial for us probably shouldn't are beneficial for us probably shouldn't surprise us at all I mean I mean this is surprise us at all I mean I mean this is surprise us at all I mean I mean this is why we I mean these are not why we I mean these are not why we I mean these are not um esoteric mechanisms they're actually um esoteric mechanisms they're actually um esoteric mechanisms they're actually the the foundational mechanisms by which the the foundational mechanisms by which the the foundational mechanisms by which our our body and the bodies of other our our body and the bodies of other our our body and the bodies of other animals adapt animals adapt animals adapt um so I do have a question about the uh um so I do have a question about the uh um so I do have a question about the uh different ways that people could different ways that people could different ways that people could approach deliberate cold exposure so for approach deliberate cold exposure so for approach deliberate cold exposure so for instance instance instance um um children I've been to banyas where there children I've been to banyas where there children I've been to banyas where there are kids you know six or seven years old are kids you know six or seven years old are kids you know six or seven years old with their parents at the Banya with their parents at the Banya with their parents at the Banya um and so they're in hot sauna I'm not um and so they're in hot sauna I'm not um and so they're in hot sauna I'm not suggesting people do this if they're if suggesting people do this if they're if suggesting people do this if they're if they're not you know adapted to it and they're not you know adapted to it and they're not you know adapted to it and you know talk to your parents kids and you know talk to your parents kids and you know talk to your parents kids and talk to your kids parents um talk to
2:13talk to your kids parents um talk to talk to your kids parents um talk to your doctors your doctors your doctors um but is remarkable I mean uh children um but is remarkable I mean uh children um but is remarkable I mean uh children doing sauna from a young age or doing sauna from a young age or doing sauna from a young age or deliberate cold exposure uh are there deliberate cold exposure uh are there deliberate cold exposure uh are there any data on this and is it safe assuming any data on this and is it safe assuming any data on this and is it safe assuming that you know obviously that they can that you know obviously that they can that you know obviously that they can swim and they're doing this in a tub or swim and they're doing this in a tub or swim and they're doing this in a tub or shower shower shower um and then I'd also like to ask you um and then I'd also like to ask you um and then I'd also like to ask you about are there any additional male about are there any additional male about are there any additional male female differences I know your study female differences I know your study female differences I know your study focused on men but um other Studies have focused on men but um other Studies have focused on men but um other Studies have focused on both and you of course focused on both and you of course focused on both and you of course um are a woman and can attest to your um are a woman and can attest to your um are a woman and can attest to your own experience with this own experience with this own experience with this um so children men women um so children men women um so children men women um differences there in terms of um differences there in terms of um differences there in terms of protocols is there anything that people protocols is there anything that people protocols is there anything that people should build into the structure of of should build into the structure of of should build into the structure of of their deliberate cold exposure that's their deliberate cold exposure that's their deliberate cold exposure that's unique to that unique to that unique to that so yeah so this was on cold exposure so so yeah so this was on cold exposure so so yeah so this was on cold exposure so um yeah I think that um yeah I think that um yeah I think that um starting with the the question about um starting with the the question about um starting with the the question about children children children um I think that it's important to um I think that it's important to um I think that it's important to to think about as children are smaller to think about as children are smaller to think about as children are smaller than adults so we cannot really than adults so we cannot really than adults so we cannot really completely transfer all the information
2:14completely transfer all the information completely transfer all the information and the benefits and also protocols for and the benefits and also protocols for and the benefits and also protocols for how long and and stuff like that two how long and and stuff like that two how long and and stuff like that two children we cannot do that because they children we cannot do that because they children we cannot do that because they are just smaller in mass and one study are just smaller in mass and one study are just smaller in mass and one study that actually that actually that actually um improves this is a study where they um improves this is a study where they um improves this is a study where they have compared a heat loss in children have compared a heat loss in children have compared a heat loss in children boys who were 12 years old compared to boys who were 12 years old compared to boys who were 12 years old compared to adults men and looked at the heat loss adults men and looked at the heat loss adults men and looked at the heat loss of the core temperature of the core temperature of the core temperature and expose them to a one or one or two and expose them to a one or one or two and expose them to a one or one or two minutes minutes minutes um code exposure so immersion up to the um code exposure so immersion up to the um code exposure so immersion up to the neck neck neck and what they saw was that the the boys and what they saw was that the the boys and what they saw was that the the boys in this study could actually defend the in this study could actually defend the in this study could actually defend the core temperature in a same way as the core temperature in a same way as the core temperature in a same way as the adults could but they had to use their adults could but they had to use their adults could but they had to use their muscles way faster so it means that they muscles way faster so it means that they muscles way faster so it means that they couldn't stay for as long and they use couldn't stay for as long and they use couldn't stay for as long and they use more energy to defend their core more energy to defend their core more energy to defend their core temperature compared to the to the temperature compared to the to the
2:15temperature compared to the to the adults but for one minute it seems that adults but for one minute it seems that adults but for one minute it seems that they could actually come but they would they could actually come but they would they could actually come but they would be colder when they then come out be colder when they then come out be colder when they then come out because they are smaller in their mess because they are smaller in their mess because they are smaller in their mess to that ratio right so it means that if to that ratio right so it means that if to that ratio right so it means that if the surface is so large on children and the surface is so large on children and the surface is so large on children and their mass and muscles being smaller to their mass and muscles being smaller to their mass and muscles being smaller to that ratio it means that they can be in that ratio it means that they can be in that ratio it means that they can be in the water the water the water less time before they get hypothermic so less time before they get hypothermic so less time before they get hypothermic so just think about that they are just just think about that they are just just think about that they are just smaller they can't defend their smaller they can't defend their smaller they can't defend their temperature for a very long time but in temperature for a very long time but in temperature for a very long time but in this study they saw that for up to I this study they saw that for up to I this study they saw that for up to I think it was a minute or so they can one think it was a minute or so they can one think it was a minute or so they can one minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned hypothermia and smaller bodied hypothermia and smaller bodied hypothermia and smaller bodied um people children uh I used to do some um people children uh I used to do some um people children uh I used to do some Pacific ocean swims in the morning Pacific ocean swims in the morning Pacific ocean swims in the morning without wetsuits and I adapted to it without wetsuits and I adapted to it without wetsuits and I adapted to it pretty quickly and these are fairly long pretty quickly and these are fairly long pretty quickly and these are fairly long swims and we brought an excellent swims and we brought an excellent swims and we brought an excellent swimmer with us swimmer with us swimmer with us um that was interning with me for a um that was interning with me for a um that was interning with me for a while while while um is 16 years old at the time and very
2:16um is 16 years old at the time and very um is 16 years old at the time and very lean and um he wasn't small for his age lean and um he wasn't small for his age lean and um he wasn't small for his age but he was smaller than us than the it but he was smaller than us than the it but he was smaller than us than the it was all guys on the swim that day was all guys on the swim that day was all guys on the swim that day Sometimes women join us and he got Sometimes women join us and he got Sometimes women join us and he got hypothermic hypothermic hypothermic and he's an excellent swimmer and he and he's an excellent swimmer and he and he's an excellent swimmer and he didn't report feeling overly cold but didn't report feeling overly cold but didn't report feeling overly cold but unfortunately we got him to Shore and unfortunately we got him to Shore and unfortunately we got him to Shore and heated him up again heated him up again heated him up again um so he lived I don't think his mother um so he lived I don't think his mother um so he lived I don't think his mother was going to ever let him go swimming was going to ever let him go swimming was going to ever let him go swimming with us again he's thriving in the world with us again he's thriving in the world with us again he's thriving in the world he's a university student now he's a university student now he's a university student now um and he recalls that swim I mean this um and he recalls that swim I mean this um and he recalls that swim I mean this is why you always want to Ocean swim is why you always want to Ocean swim is why you always want to Ocean swim with a buddy with people with a buddy with people with a buddy with people um yeah he he became hypothermic his um yeah he he became hypothermic his um yeah he he became hypothermic his teeth turned yellow he was slurring his teeth turned yellow he was slurring his teeth turned yellow he was slurring his words he wasn't making sense you know we words he wasn't making sense you know we words he wasn't making sense you know we got him on the shore and he was kind of got him on the shore and he was kind of got him on the shore and he was kind of you know drooling and a little you know drooling and a little you know drooling and a little semi-euphoric and then kind of you know semi-euphoric and then kind of you know semi-euphoric and then kind of you know it was it was it was um hypothermia is no joke so I think um hypothermia is no joke so I think um hypothermia is no joke so I think yeah so I I I'm really glad that this is yeah so I I I'm really glad that this is yeah so I I I'm really glad that this is coming up because the cold is a powerful coming up because the cold is a powerful coming up because the cold is a powerful stimulus and um and I and kids are at a stimulus and um and I and kids are at a stimulus and um and I and kids are at a and smaller bodied people are at a
2:17and smaller bodied people are at a and smaller bodied people are at a greater risk of hypothermia so a good greater risk of hypothermia so a good greater risk of hypothermia so a good reason to approach it with caution maybe reason to approach it with caution maybe reason to approach it with caution maybe start with cold showers get uh then cold start with cold showers get uh then cold start with cold showers get uh then cold immersion and still water natural water immersion and still water natural water immersion and still water natural water and open bodies of water of course are and open bodies of water of course are and open bodies of water of course are always going to be always going to be always going to be um more dangerous for other reasons um more dangerous for other reasons um more dangerous for other reasons currents and things of that sort okay currents and things of that sort okay currents and things of that sort okay I'm drowning yeah so important note I'm drowning yeah so important note I'm drowning yeah so important note there there um what about any additional male female um what about any additional male female um what about any additional male female differences or similarities that um we differences or similarities that um we differences or similarities that um we should be aware of and this comes up all should be aware of and this comes up all should be aware of and this comes up all the time on social media anytime I post the time on social media anytime I post the time on social media anytime I post anything about a study it's what about anything about a study it's what about anything about a study it's what about women because oftentimes there are women because oftentimes there are women because oftentimes there are differences yeah yeah and and differences yeah yeah and and differences yeah yeah and and we we also just took about the we we also just took about the we we also just took about the difference in in in temperature in men difference in in in temperature in men difference in in in temperature in men and women so it means that if we did if and women so it means that if we did if and women so it means that if we did if we replicated my study in women it could we replicated my study in women it could we replicated my study in women it could be that they would have enough you can be that they would have enough you can be that they would have enough you can say cold exposure with just nine minutes say cold exposure with just nine minutes say cold exposure with just nine minutes per week it could be because they per week it could be because they per week it could be because they apparently are also just colder and and apparently are also just colder and and apparently are also just colder and and they have increased metabolism in their they have increased metabolism in their they have increased metabolism in their Brown fat is just they have more Brown
2:18Brown fat is just they have more Brown Brown fat is just they have more Brown fat it could be but this is just fat it could be but this is just fat it could be but this is just something that I I frankly don't know something that I I frankly don't know something that I I frankly don't know but women also do cold exposure winter but women also do cold exposure winter but women also do cold exposure winter swimming with the 11 minutes protocol I swimming with the 11 minutes protocol I swimming with the 11 minutes protocol I do it myself and feel good about it so I do it myself and feel good about it so I do it myself and feel good about it so I would say that would say that would say that um women Also regarding activation of um women Also regarding activation of um women Also regarding activation of the brown fat it should be the same the brown fat it should be the same the brown fat it should be the same um in theory but I don't know if women um in theory but I don't know if women um in theory but I don't know if women actually actually actually do you need to have another protocol do you need to have another protocol do you need to have another protocol when it comes to this rapid cold when it comes to this rapid cold when it comes to this rapid cold exposure I think that it's another exposure I think that it's another exposure I think that it's another question if we are talking about ice question if we are talking about ice question if we are talking about ice swimming when it comes to how far can swimming when it comes to how far can swimming when it comes to how far can you be in the cold water without getting you be in the cold water without getting you be in the cold water without getting hypothermic then there will be hypothermic then there will be hypothermic then there will be differences in men and and female but differences in men and and female but differences in men and and female but but if you do this cold exposure for a but if you do this cold exposure for a but if you do this cold exposure for a very brief amount of time which is what very brief amount of time which is what very brief amount of time which is what I try to to talk to about talk about I try to to talk to about talk about I try to to talk to about talk about what we call also micro stressing the what we call also micro stressing the what we call also micro stressing the body to to increase the Hermetic stress body to to increase the Hermetic stress body to to increase the Hermetic stress the healthy stress then this is such a the healthy stress then this is such a the healthy stress then this is such a short amount of
2:19short amount of short amount of um exposure that it it's fairly the same um exposure that it it's fairly the same um exposure that it it's fairly the same I think I think women can look at this I think I think women can look at this I think I think women can look at this as a fairly a good protocol for the for as a fairly a good protocol for the for as a fairly a good protocol for the for for them as well I always say that if for them as well I always say that if for them as well I always say that if you really dread the cold and um and you really dread the cold and um and you really dread the cold and um and don't like the cold then you are a don't like the cold then you are a don't like the cold then you are a perfect candidate for using deliberate perfect candidate for using deliberate perfect candidate for using deliberate cold exposure because the sympathetic cold exposure because the sympathetic cold exposure because the sympathetic aka the stress response will be greater aka the stress response will be greater aka the stress response will be greater and thereby the adaptation to that and thereby the adaptation to that and thereby the adaptation to that shorter one or two minutes is um is shorter one or two minutes is um is shorter one or two minutes is um is going to be much greater right for going to be much greater right for going to be much greater right for people that are perfectly comfortable in people that are perfectly comfortable in people that are perfectly comfortable in the cold it's harder to get an the cold it's harder to get an the cold it's harder to get an adaptation response the same way that if adaptation response the same way that if adaptation response the same way that if somebody's very strong and they can lift somebody's very strong and they can lift somebody's very strong and they can lift a very heavy weight that that very heavy a very heavy weight that that very heavy a very heavy weight that that very heavy weight is unlikely to evoke the same weight is unlikely to evoke the same weight is unlikely to evoke the same kind of same degree of of uh adaptive kind of same degree of of uh adaptive kind of same degree of of uh adaptive responses if somebody is not quite as responses if somebody is not quite as responses if somebody is not quite as strong so another reason to keep these strong so another reason to keep these strong so another reason to keep these exposures relatively short yeah and more exposures relatively short yeah and more exposures relatively short yeah and more frequent than to do longer duration frequent than to do longer duration frequent than to do longer duration exposures frequently however let's say exposures frequently however let's say exposures frequently however let's say somebody only had two days a week
2:20somebody only had two days a week somebody only had two days a week um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe they don't have access to Asana maybe they don't have access to Asana maybe they don't have access to Asana maybe they do would you suggest that they get they do would you suggest that they get they do would you suggest that they get in for one or two minutes then get out in for one or two minutes then get out in for one or two minutes then get out then get back in for another couple of then get back in for another couple of then get back in for another couple of minutes then get out and call that for minutes then get out and call that for minutes then get out and call that for you know four or five minutes you know four or five minutes you know four or five minutes um to try and get to that 11 minutes um to try and get to that 11 minutes um to try and get to that 11 minutes total per week total per week total per week um as opposed to getting in for a full um as opposed to getting in for a full um as opposed to getting in for a full five minutes five minutes five minutes um and then getting out and coming back um and then getting out and coming back um and then getting out and coming back a second time that week I know this is a second time that week I know this is a second time that week I know this is getting down into the weeds but these getting down into the weeds but these getting down into the weeds but these are the sorts of things that I think are the sorts of things that I think are the sorts of things that I think people really want to know because a lot people really want to know because a lot people really want to know because a lot of people either don't live close to a of people either don't live close to a of people either don't live close to a body of water or don't have a cold body of water or don't have a cold body of water or don't have a cold plunge plunge um that they can do this with although um that they can do this with although um that they can do this with although cold shower apparently works too so most cold shower apparently works too so most cold shower apparently works too so most people live close to a shower yeah it's people live close to a shower yeah it's people live close to a shower yeah it's definitely I think the the changes in definitely I think the the changes in definitely I think the the changes in temperature is what is temperature is what is temperature is what is strengthening your your cells in the strengthening your your cells in the strengthening your your cells in the body so if you can do the short amount body so if you can do the short amount body so if you can do the short amount of exposure and then get out and get of exposure and then get out and get of exposure and then get out and get back in that is gonna you can say um
2:21back in that is gonna you can say um back in that is gonna you can say um um strengthen yourselves because you are um strengthen yourselves because you are um strengthen yourselves because you are challenging them to to adapt to challenging them to to adapt to challenging them to to adapt to um changing temperatures so doing one um changing temperatures so doing one um changing temperatures so doing one session you can change this right you session you can change this right you session you can change this right you you can do it if you are able to go to you can do it if you are able to go to you can do it if you are able to go to cold water but also a sauna then you cold water but also a sauna then you cold water but also a sauna then you just do it that automatically you will just do it that automatically you will just do it that automatically you will have a change in temperature but you have a change in temperature but you have a change in temperature but you could also do it by variating the could also do it by variating the could also do it by variating the temperature in your Coke plunge if you temperature in your Coke plunge if you temperature in your Coke plunge if you have have have if you have a plunge or if you have an if you have a plunge or if you have an if you have a plunge or if you have an open CEO or you have seasoning Seasons open CEO or you have seasoning Seasons open CEO or you have seasoning Seasons even you have we have that in Denmark so even you have we have that in Denmark so even you have we have that in Denmark so we have four seasons and the temperature we have four seasons and the temperature we have four seasons and the temperature is going to vary with that so we have is going to vary with that so we have is going to vary with that so we have nature who can just change this for us nature who can just change this for us nature who can just change this for us and we don't have to think about it if and we don't have to think about it if and we don't have to think about it if you have a cold plunge well then I would you have a cold plunge well then I would you have a cold plunge well then I would say that changing the temperature is say that changing the temperature is say that changing the temperature is what is going to create this hermetic what is going to create this hermetic what is going to create this hermetic stress and also keep your cells on its stress and also keep your cells on its stress and also keep your cells on its toes you can say because you are tried toes you can say because you are tried toes you can say because you are tried the body will still be um stressed to the body will still be um stressed to the body will still be um stressed to try to adapt to the new temperature as try to adapt to the new temperature as try to adapt to the new temperature as it's seen as something actually toxic to it's seen as something actually toxic to it's seen as something actually toxic to the body right it's a small small piece
2:22the body right it's a small small piece the body right it's a small small piece of toxicity that you are exposing of toxicity that you are exposing of toxicity that you are exposing yourself to yourself to yourself to you don't have to swallow it but it's you don't have to swallow it but it's you don't have to swallow it but it's enough that you touch it actually yeah enough that you touch it actually yeah enough that you touch it actually yeah great a great way to frame it great a great way to frame it great a great way to frame it um um that brings me back to this idea of that brings me back to this idea of that brings me back to this idea of circadian time in your study you didn't circadian time in your study you didn't circadian time in your study you didn't um control first specific time of day um control first specific time of day um control first specific time of day and now I'm realizing that may be a and now I'm realizing that may be a and now I'm realizing that may be a great asset to the whole thing so we great asset to the whole thing so we great asset to the whole thing so we know for instance that our bodies go know for instance that our bodies go know for instance that our bodies go through pretty dramatic shifts in through pretty dramatic shifts in through pretty dramatic shifts in temperature from the time we wake up temperature from the time we wake up temperature from the time we wake up um our body starts heating up as we wake um our body starts heating up as we wake um our body starts heating up as we wake up and continues to heat until the up and continues to heat until the up and continues to heat until the afternoon and then starts to drop in the afternoon and then starts to drop in the afternoon and then starts to drop in the later afternoon and then assuming all later afternoon and then assuming all later afternoon and then assuming all things are working correctly things are working correctly things are working correctly um that body temperature drops and we um that body temperature drops and we um that body temperature drops and we sleep so I could imagine that doing sleep so I could imagine that doing sleep so I could imagine that doing deliberate cold exposure at different deliberate cold exposure at different deliberate cold exposure at different times just by way of convenience or by times just by way of convenience or by times just by way of convenience or by way of intention could be very way of intention could be very way of intention could be very beneficial because my body temperature beneficial because my body temperature beneficial because my body temperature is going to be quite a bit warmer at one is going to be quite a bit warmer at one is going to be quite a bit warmer at one time of day versus another and in that time of day versus another and in that time of day versus another and in that way keeping the system tuned and that's way keeping the system tuned and that's way keeping the system tuned and that's really what I keep hearing coming really what I keep hearing coming really what I keep hearing coming through in as you explain these data and
2:23through in as you explain these data and through in as you explain these data and all these beautiful studies yours and all these beautiful studies yours and all these beautiful studies yours and others others others is that it's not really about getting is that it's not really about getting is that it's not really about getting cold it's about going from warm to cold cold it's about going from warm to cold cold it's about going from warm to cold and from cold to warm it's not it and I and from cold to warm it's not it and I and from cold to warm it's not it and I love this idea because I I probably said love this idea because I I probably said love this idea because I I probably said this 100 times on my podcast and a this 100 times on my podcast and a this 100 times on my podcast and a million times in my life and I'll million times in my life and I'll million times in my life and I'll continue to which is that biology is not continue to which is that biology is not continue to which is that biology is not an event it's a process like these these an event it's a process like these these an event it's a process like these these um metabolic and thermoregulatory um metabolic and thermoregulatory um metabolic and thermoregulatory processes are indeed like the Turning of processes are indeed like the Turning of processes are indeed like the Turning of a knob it's a verb as opposed to a noun a knob it's a verb as opposed to a noun a knob it's a verb as opposed to a noun and I and so I I think if people can and I and so I I think if people can and I and so I I think if people can internalize that idea that they're going internalize that idea that they're going internalize that idea that they're going to have a lot more flexibility a lot to have a lot more flexibility a lot to have a lot more flexibility a lot more fun and and get a lot more benefit more fun and and get a lot more benefit more fun and and get a lot more benefit as opposed to thinking okay I need to as opposed to thinking okay I need to as opposed to thinking okay I need to get into X degrees of water for x amount get into X degrees of water for x amount get into X degrees of water for x amount of time on X number of days yeah you of time on X number of days yeah you of time on X number of days yeah you know know know all the time how much and how cold and all the time how much and how cold and all the time how much and how cold and and I mean it's not it's just like well and I mean it's not it's just like well and I mean it's not it's just like well because we also don't have studies because we also don't have studies because we also don't have studies showing exactly if you just keep five showing exactly if you just keep five showing exactly if you just keep five degrees in your water and you do that
2:24degrees in your water and you do that degrees in your water and you do that for a month then what happens we maybe for a month then what happens we maybe for a month then what happens we maybe the future will know much more about the future will know much more about the future will know much more about this and I'm sure it's going to come and this and I'm sure it's going to come and this and I'm sure it's going to come and I really hope so but I just think by I really hope so but I just think by I really hope so but I just think by logically changing that temperature up logically changing that temperature up logically changing that temperature up and down up and down and you also do and down up and down and you also do and down up and down and you also do that in your water it doesn't really that in your water it doesn't really that in your water it doesn't really it's not that important what temperature it's not that important what temperature it's not that important what temperature you you will have your water then then you you will have your water then then you you will have your water then then just keep changing it going up and down just keep changing it going up and down just keep changing it going up and down it could be all up to 12 degrees Celsius it could be all up to 12 degrees Celsius it could be all up to 12 degrees Celsius you're going to activate your brown fat you're going to activate your brown fat you're going to activate your brown fat anyways I mean 12 19 degrees a cold air anyways I mean 12 19 degrees a cold air anyways I mean 12 19 degrees a cold air is enough to activate your brown Foods is enough to activate your brown Foods is enough to activate your brown Foods so maybe we don't have to go as cold as so maybe we don't have to go as cold as so maybe we don't have to go as cold as I think many people think I think many people think I think many people think um and putting ice even all the time you um and putting ice even all the time you um and putting ice even all the time you don't have to it's not I don't think don't have to it's not I don't think don't have to it's not I don't think it's necessary to to expose yourself to it's necessary to to expose yourself to it's necessary to to expose yourself to that cold temperature all the time that cold temperature all the time that cold temperature all the time um but vary it a bit so keep the system um but vary it a bit so keep the system um but vary it a bit so keep the system off balance and that's the way to keep off balance and that's the way to keep off balance and that's the way to keep it tuned Yeah you mentioned a study that it tuned Yeah you mentioned a study that it tuned Yeah you mentioned a study that is more recent or an ongoing that's not is more recent or an ongoing that's not is more recent or an ongoing that's not published or um if you're willing um
2:25published or um if you're willing um published or um if you're willing um could you share maybe some of the data could you share maybe some of the data could you share maybe some of the data from that our findings from that study from that our findings from that study from that our findings from that study um with of course the the cue to um with of course the the cue to um with of course the the cue to everybody that these are not yet everybody that these are not yet everybody that these are not yet published data so the conclusions could published data so the conclusions could published data so the conclusions could change the data could change for that change the data could change for that change the data could change for that matter yeah so we have we haven't matter yeah so we have we haven't matter yeah so we have we haven't analyzed all the data yet and I I know analyzed all the data yet and I I know analyzed all the data yet and I I know from the study that we did publish that from the study that we did publish that from the study that we did publish that we we would need to look more at the we we would need to look more at the we we would need to look more at the data so I don't really have any results data so I don't really have any results data so I don't really have any results yet that I can share because we are yet that I can share because we are yet that I can share because we are still in very preliminary analysis of still in very preliminary analysis of still in very preliminary analysis of this so I I wouldn't know yet what to this so I I wouldn't know yet what to this so I I wouldn't know yet what to exactly say about it but what we looked exactly say about it but what we looked exactly say about it but what we looked at was both men and women method so at was both men and women method so at was both men and women method so that's that's coming oh that's fantastic that's that's coming oh that's fantastic that's that's coming oh that's fantastic that answer is going to please a great that answer is going to please a great that answer is going to please a great number of people and and Intrigue number of people and and Intrigue number of people and and Intrigue everybody so everybody so everybody so well listen I I want to really thank you well listen I I want to really thank you well listen I I want to really thank you for coming here today to talk about your for coming here today to talk about your for coming here today to talk about your work work work um and the incredible direction that it um and the incredible direction that it um and the incredible direction that it points to because I think that
2:26points to because I think that points to because I think that um you know no one study is definitive um you know no one study is definitive um you know no one study is definitive but your study really again stands as a but your study really again stands as a but your study really again stands as a landmark in the landscape of exploring landmark in the landscape of exploring landmark in the landscape of exploring deliberate cold exposure and Heat deliberate cold exposure and Heat deliberate cold exposure and Heat how it can impact and potentially impact how it can impact and potentially impact how it can impact and potentially impact our health because our health because our health because frankly there just haven't been that frankly there just haven't been that frankly there just haven't been that many many many um high resolution uh detailed modern um high resolution uh detailed modern um high resolution uh detailed modern studies of this there have been studies studies of this there have been studies studies of this there have been studies of sauna there have been some studies of of sauna there have been some studies of of sauna there have been some studies of coal there are a lot of groups in coal there are a lot of groups in coal there are a lot of groups in physiology that work on hypothermia and physiology that work on hypothermia and physiology that work on hypothermia and very cold exposure but um most of the very cold exposure but um most of the very cold exposure but um most of the temperatures used in those days just temperatures used in those days just temperatures used in those days just aren't practical so first of all I just aren't practical so first of all I just aren't practical so first of all I just want to thank you for doing the work want to thank you for doing the work want to thank you for doing the work that you've done and for the work that that you've done and for the work that that you've done and for the work that you continue to do I'm you continue to do I'm you continue to do I'm um uh waiting with baited breath as they um uh waiting with baited breath as they um uh waiting with baited breath as they say to um to hear the results of this say to um to hear the results of this say to um to hear the results of this study that's ongoing on both men and study that's ongoing on both men and study that's ongoing on both men and women so um we'll have to have you back women so um we'll have to have you back women so um we'll have to have you back to inform us about that soon and I want to inform us about that soon and I want to inform us about that soon and I want to thank you for the incredible public to thank you for the incredible public to thank you for the incredible public education efforts that you've been doing education efforts that you've been doing education efforts that you've been doing on social media on social media on social media um and in with respect to your book
2:27um and in with respect to your book um and in with respect to your book um and we of course will put links to um and we of course will put links to um and we of course will put links to all of those things in the show note all of those things in the show note all of those things in the show note captions so people can learn from you captions so people can learn from you captions so people can learn from you and can continue to learn from you we we and can continue to learn from you we we and can continue to learn from you we we certainly need more scientists who are certainly need more scientists who are certainly need more scientists who are both experienced with doing hardcore both experienced with doing hardcore both experienced with doing hardcore research as it's called and who also do research as it's called and who also do research as it's called and who also do the practices I think that's a wonderful the practices I think that's a wonderful the practices I think that's a wonderful additional asset you know you're not additional asset you know you're not additional asset you know you're not just behind a lab coat or bundled up in just behind a lab coat or bundled up in just behind a lab coat or bundled up in a down uh in a down feather jacket as a down uh in a down feather jacket as a down uh in a down feather jacket as everyone else is getting in the cold you everyone else is getting in the cold you everyone else is getting in the cold you do these things and that you are so open do these things and that you are so open do these things and that you are so open and generous in the way that you share and generous in the way that you share and generous in the way that you share uh knowledge which includes coming here uh knowledge which includes coming here uh knowledge which includes coming here today to to share knowledge with me and today to to share knowledge with me and today to to share knowledge with me and uh our audience so thank you ever so uh our audience so thank you ever so uh our audience so thank you ever so much you're very welcome I am so pleased much you're very welcome I am so pleased much you're very welcome I am so pleased to be here and thank you so much for to be here and thank you so much for to be here and thank you so much for inviting me and I could explain my study inviting me and I could explain my study inviting me and I could explain my study and I can share some of my insights from and I can share some of my insights from and I can share some of my insights from from doing that so I'm very grateful for from doing that so I'm very grateful for from doing that so I'm very grateful for being here being here being here delighted and we'll have to have you delighted and we'll have to have you delighted and we'll have to have you back again thank you for joining me for back again thank you for joining me for back again thank you for joining me for today's discussion all about deliberate today's discussion all about deliberate today's discussion all about deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure cold and deliberate heat exposure cold and deliberate heat exposure science and protocols with Dr Susanna
2:28science and protocols with Dr Susanna science and protocols with Dr Susanna soberg if you'd like to learn more about soberg if you'd like to learn more about soberg if you'd like to learn more about Dr soberg's research or you would like Dr soberg's research or you would like Dr soberg's research or you would like to learn about the research of her to learn about the research of her to learn about the research of her Institute The soberg Institute please Institute The soberg Institute please Institute The soberg Institute please see the links in the show note caption see the links in the show note caption see the links in the show note caption also in the show note caption you can also in the show note caption you can also in the show note caption you can find a link to Dr soberg's excellent find a link to Dr soberg's excellent find a link to Dr soberg's excellent book winter swimming if you're learning book winter swimming if you're learning book winter swimming if you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast please from and or enjoying this podcast please from and or enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel that's subscribe to our YouTube channel that's subscribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zero cost way to support us a terrific zero cost way to support us a terrific zero cost way to support us in addition please subscribe to the in addition please subscribe to the in addition please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and apple and in podcast on Spotify and apple and in podcast on Spotify and apple and in addition on both Spotify and apple you addition on both Spotify and apple you addition on both Spotify and apple you can leave us up to a five-star review if can leave us up to a five-star review if can leave us up to a five-star review if you have questions for me or topics you have questions for me or topics you have questions for me or topics you'd like me to cover on the huberman you'd like me to cover on the huberman you'd like me to cover on the huberman Lab podcast or guests that you'd like me Lab podcast or guests that you'd like me Lab podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider inviting on the huberman Lab to consider inviting on the huberman Lab to consider inviting on the huberman Lab podcast please put that in the comments podcast please put that in the comments podcast please put that in the comments on YouTube I do read all the comments in on YouTube I do read all the comments in on YouTube I do read all the comments in addition please check out the sponsors addition please check out the sponsors addition please check out the sponsors mentioned the beginning and throughout mentioned the beginning and throughout mentioned the beginning and throughout today's episode that's the best way to today's episode that's the best way to today's episode that's the best way to support this podcast not so much on support this podcast not so much on support this podcast not so much on today's episode but on various previous today's episode but on various previous today's episode but on various previous episodes of the huberman live podcast we episodes of the huberman live podcast we episodes of the huberman live podcast we discuss supplements while supplements discuss supplements while supplements discuss supplements while supplements aren't necessary for everybody many aren't necessary for everybody many aren't necessary for everybody many people derive tremendous benefit from people derive tremendous benefit from people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep them for things like enhancing sleep them for things like enhancing sleep focus and hormone support the huberman
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