Cold Water Immersion The Hidden Risks for Muscle Growth with Milan Betz
00:00so how it's possible that some athletes are swearing that it makes them recover faster and make them makes them better athletes yeah so there is a bit of a difference in the context so for example cold kind of like an analgesic effect so it can reduce pain so and because of that it also has quite a strong placebo effect probably so if you look at for example next day performance quite often you can see indeed sometimes a bit of a better performance but that increase in performance doesn't really seems to be very different than just normal placebo effect so it's a bit difficult to really say whether it's really the the cooling that has any beneficial effects on let's say next day performance or it's just because they think they will have better performance they you go into the into the ice bath and you think okay this will help my recovery and tomorrow I can deliver better I can perform better yeah that it's it's difficult to really say that
01:00Hi Milan it's my pleasure to have you on Evidence Strong Show if you could briefly introduce yourself thank you thanks for having me so my name is Milan Betz I'm a PhD researcher at Maastricht University at the M3 research group Muscle Metabolism Maastricht let's say the main focus of my research is the muscle microvasculature so like the smallest blood vessels in the muscle and specifically how they or like their role in muscle adaptation uh or muscle recovery a big part of my PhD work is also actually focused on the elderly so age related muscle loss but I had the opportunity to do a little bit of a side step side project to look at the cold water immersion and more muscle recovery in young active people so uh that was actually quite a nice uh kind of like a side project excellent very grateful for side projects of M3 group we talking cool water immersion and recovery from exercise so let's go through some kind of definitions so we are
02:00on the same page so what cold water immersion is yeah so for us it really just means that you are submerging into very cold water and uh in this case we used uh 8° which is definitely very very cold so to do that we also had like a big big ton full of water and you just have to like dump like five big buckets of ice in uh to get to the to the 8° uh so it's definitely it's definitely cold let's start with what was the aim of the study because cold water in this one and recovery but like how were you thinking what you were the most interested in yeah I mean one of the main reasons to to do uh research in this topic is still uh because it's very very popular and and a lot of people are still doing it and there's still yeah this idea that it can improve uh muscle recovery but yeah more and more work is now showing uh kind of the opposite effect uh that it could maybe be
03:00bad for recovery and that's also what my colleague Kuk's shown that if you put one leg into the cold water immersion so ice ice water compared to just the thermonutral water you see a reduction in uh muscle protein synthesis and this is the essentially kind of like an underlying process that helps muscles to to adapt to exercise uh so it's also one of the main let's say mechanisms behind muscle growth so we think that's that's important part of of muscle recovery could you explain a little bit more about the the hypothesis how you think the adaptation and recovery works on the muscle level yeah so you mean specifically with cold motor immersion or just in general maybe let's start in J it's probably good to to realize that our muscles are not static and what I mean by that is that they are basically constantly turning over so all the the building blocks of your muscle so the muscle proteins they're essentially every day at every moment they are breaking down and
04:00building back up and because it's doing that if you stimulate muscles for example with uh exercise or with nutrition it responds by building more then it's breaking down so then because of the balance uh the balance would then be positive then you can build muscle over time and that is what we think is just like an an important concept from muscle adaptation also for example if you want to grow muscles or or get stronger you would like to be in a in a positive balance so you want the synthesis to be larger than the breakdown that's kind of the idea of muscle protein synthesis and then yeah we have already shown a couple years back that cold water immersion can reduce muscle protein synthesis and that actually also aligns uh quite well with some work from from other people showing that if you do cold water immersion frequently during let's say I think they did a 10 week 12week resistance training program you also see less gains in uh muscle mass and muscle
05:00strength so yeah it does definitely seem that uh cold water immersion can have some kind of negative impact on on recovery and adaptation and from the study that my uh colleague did we weren't really sure what was the main mechanism behind it so we saw a reduction in muscle protein synthesis but we weren't really too sure about what was really uh causing the effect so that's why we came up with this follow-up study and it's actually kind of a coincidence because for another project that I've been doing at the start of my PhD we introduced a new method in our lab and it's a method with using ultrasound using that method you can assess uh blood flow in the microvasculature so in the very very smallest muscle vessels of the muscle so we now had this method and then we thought wow that's that would be perfect to use in in this cold water immersion protocol because yeah we do think that it probably has to be related to to some kind of reduction in blood flow uh just
06:00because yeah in the cold you have you have fazo constriction so blood vessels they uh they go uh well they tighten up uh basically so this would then be kind of like a really nice technique to really uh investigate like blood flow within the muscle and then again how that relates to recovery and and in this case we wanted to look at how let's say the the amino acids from a drink so that's basically just the the the building blocks from protein how they ended up in the muscle we just gave him a drink and it had also we call it a tracer so it's kind of like a special amino acid so building block of muscle protein and then just after a couple hours we take piece of muscle tissue out of the leg and then we can measure how much of that drink actually ended up in the muscle okay so we have your goal of the study you want you want to be sure so you asked people to drink a traced protein so traced drink with traced amino acids so the building blocks for the muscle as to
07:00exercise yeah so we did then exercise no we first did the exercise because we also wanted to see just the the effect of the exercise on blood flow okay so So that's why we first started with just we did all the measurements from blood flow with the ultrasound uh when they were just resting in the bed uh then we did the exercise which was leg press and leg extension and then four side four sets of eight to 10 reps with uh 80% bonar it was pretty uh pretty heavy and uh right after we would again uh measure uh all the blood flow uh measurements just to see the the increase in in blood flow and then we would do the uh cold water immersion and then again measure uh blood flow to see specifically the effect of the cold water immersion and then they would have the the drink and then they would just lay in bed for another uh 4 hours uh and then at the end of the four hours we would uh take like the little piece of muscle and then uh like uh from both legs
08:00and then see if there were differences this design thank you awesome so the last piece of information we need is who were the participants yeah so I did actually similar participants as Gus did just to also make sure that yeah we would again see a similar effect but then we could combine it with all the measurements from blood flow so it was basically just young young male adults that were active so they were definitely exercising a couple times per week i believe the average was exercising four times per week doing all kinds of sports but they were not doing resistance training on a very structured uh regular basis so it was more like we had a lot of team sport athletes so people playing uh football or something and then they were familiar with going to the gym maybe once in a while but they weren't really following a really structured three time per week or even
09:00more resistance training uh program yeah so did you test what the one repetition maximum was did you test them at the Yeah okay yeah yeah so that was um at the very first time that someone comes into the lab we do a screening session so in that screening session you also have like a medical questionnaire to see whether they're really fit to or fit enough to participate in the study and there's no maybe medical issues or or medical issues that maybe could influence your results and then also part of that screening session was to test the uh the onem on the leg present leg extension and then we could use that during the the actual test day i should think a little bit more about the muscle samples for people who are not familiar how how does that look like yeah it it sounds quite how do you say it it sounds a bit scary maybe but it's it's not as bad as it sounds and I can speak from experience because I've had 10 taken out of my legs so I have some experience
10:00with having muscle biopsies taken from my leg but so how the procedure works is that it it is performed by a medical doctor and they put anesthetic in the skin and in the muscle and that's usually the most let's say annoying part because yeah putting an anesthetic in that can be painful uh just for maybe like a couple seconds kind of like a sharp pain but quite qu quickly that goes away because then everything is is just numb so actually the whole procedure of then with the scalpel making a small incision just just a centimeter uh and then putting putting like a hollow needle in and we're basically yeah sucking a little bit of muscle tissue into the needle and then cut cutting it off all of that you don't really feel actually uh just because because of the anesthetic so yeah actually most people who who participate in our studies after having the muscle biopsy taken they're like "Ah that actually wasn't wasn't too bad i I expected worse." But
11:00then that that piece of muscle we can then uh freeze and later do all kinds of analyses on uh So these heroes gave How many did you have how many participants uh 12 12 12 male heroes yeah agreed to the horrendous protocol of doing a burst then freezing of one of their legs and then lying flat for four hours for you to to punch them with bon needle in the tie and take the samples was it vasus lateralis yes yes yeah yeah yeah also because that's just the safest muscle to take biopsies from because it's on the outside of the upper leg there's like no major arteries or or major nerves uh close to it so that's actually what the main reason also why we usually take the vosus lateralis muscle yeah excellent so after all the ordeal you had the samples you processed them and then let's talk about the outcome measures so what you were comparing and what what you were
12:00measuring and then comparing in in the study yeah yeah so maybe one thing we didn't really cover yet what I think is also really a really cool aspect of the study is the the way how we measured blood flow mhm because usually when people measure blood flow it's often in just the big artery of the leg for example so in the artery you can just measure how many milliliters per minute of blood is is flowing through it and it's also quite easy to measure so it's being done quite often but the artery basically supplies not only the muscle but also all the other tissues like the skin connective tissue bone uh also of course the the whole lower leg and everything so we uh wanted to go one step further and measure the uh the muscle itself uh and even a little bit further than that we only wanted to measure the the very smallest blood vessels in the muscle
13:00so the microvasculature and the only problem then is that you cannot just pick up an ultrasound and measure it because the signal of the blood flowing through through the microvasculature is so low that essentially it's you just cannot measure it without a contrast so that's why we had to uh infuse a contrast uh basically directly into their circulation so in the in a vein and this contrast it sounds maybe a bit weird but this contrast was very very tiny microbubbles so kind of like very tiny gas bubbles that were so small they are approximately the same size as a red blood cell so we infuse them directly into the circulation so then they basically just go around the whole body because they are so small they also go through all the tiny blood vessels and because it's essentially a gas bubble it reacts to the ultrasound waves so the ultrasound signal and it basically enhances it so we can actually see the blood flow through the microvasculare
14:00well now I questions wait wait wait what kind of gas did you use there's a company Braco who makes these microbubbles and it it has already been used also in um just at cardiology departments to really visualize certain areas of the heart for example if they think there's some kind of damage so that's basically just like a prepackaged vial with the the microbubbles in it that we would get and then over the time of 6 minutes we would then uh infuse it so very slowly into the circulation and then in the circulation it goes around uh so during those six minutes then we can do like all the measurements that we uh that we wanted to do you injected injected it to the Was it Thai vein or how did you Yeah no just here in the elbow in the vein elbow hey come on and then you injected and in six minutes it's everywhere the bubbles are everywhere oh yeah yeah yeah for for sure um I think so it also kind of depends on the heart rate of course so after the exercise I would
15:00say within 1 minute you could already see the the bubbles appearing in the in the leg but I think in rest it takes a bit longer because you do want to have like a steady state of from the microbubbles in the circulation so we use in in rest we wait uh 3 minutes uh so 3 minutes before we actually start the measurements and how much time do you have until the are they cleared are we how did they get Yeah that's also quite interesting so because they are just gas bubbles you breathe them out so when after the 6 minutes we stop the infusion and then actually already after 10 minutes there's like barely any bubbles left in the system because every time they pass the the lungs you just breathe them out can you can you smell that no no no you can't smell them at all that would be funny like Yeah but I think also the another cool aspect from this study and this measurement was that we had two of the ultrasound machines so we could measure it in both legs at exactly
16:00the same time so then we could just infuse the microbubbles and then at exactly the same time we could see how many of those bubbles were passing through both legs so you did that you did exercise then you did the cooling protocol did you check again how the So did you inject them twice no we we injected them five times yeah tell me so we did it at rest at the beginning after exercise after the the cooling and then two more times during the recovery so what was actually also cool is so we did some pilot testing and with the with the pilot testing so be before we would actually uh we were doing the study we did some we we already did it with the two machines and we had a person with one leg having the the ice bath and then afterwards you could already see on the screen well while we were doing the measurements that there was like almost no no of the bubbles in the cold leg versus the uh the control leg so already at that point we were like wow okay there seems to
17:00be something going on here uh and I think we can also see that of course now when we we did all the 12 participants you can see like a 60 to 70% uh reduction in in the blood flow in the muscle uh after the cooling which I think is is a really large effect wow the main finding is that after cooling the leg who that was cooled had a reduced blood flow through capillaries to this leg now keeping in mind is it possible yes or no and why that this would actually elicit bigger adaptation later because it would be more stressful on the leg after so exercise is one stress what should happen is the stress then there is a recovery so kind of dipping with exercise and then we hope for super compensations would cooling be adding a stress so you drop exercise then you drop
18:00lower and then you're building maybe that's Yes yeah so that is that is actually also something that someone once told me that they they thought that maybe cooling would reduce blood flow but then only for a little bit or for for a short period of time and then it would like shoot up yeah but that's actually not what we saw at all because after the cooling it went straight down and then one hour after it was still down and then even 3 hours after it was still like a little bit down so it looks like it will it just reduces and then while the the muscle is basically just heating up again it also you see the blood flow kind of returning back back to baseline we don't of course know what happens after the the 3 hours 4 hours but I would I would be surprised if somehow it's it it shoots up it seems to be mostly related to just the reduction in the in
19:00the muscle temperature that that's what I think at least all right 60 70% that's that's shocking so how it's possible that some athletes are swearing that it makes them recover faster and make them makes them better athletes yeah so there is a bit of a difference in the context so for example cold kind of like an analesic effect so it can reduce pain so and because of that it also has quite a strong placebo effect probably so if you look at for example next day performance quite often you can see indeed sometimes a bit of a a better performance but that increase in performance doesn't really seems to be very different than uh just normal placebo effect so it's a bit difficult to really say whether it's really the the cooling that has any beneficial effects on let's say next day performance or it's just uh because they think they will have better performance they you go into
20:00the into the ice bath and you think okay this will help my recovery and tomorrow I can deliver better I can perform better yeah the it's it's difficult to really say that any other so you observed the less bubbles in the cold leg up to 4 hours after still less bubbles so with the exercised leg the blood flow increased after exercise atum then the cooled leg would have the drop in the bubbles the how the non-cooled leg would behave that's also one thing that we were really happy with we were measuring of course blood flow in both legs at rest and after exercise without any intervention yet and those values actually were pretty much identical which is is of course what you would hope but you never know so in both legs you saw uh a very large increase in blood flow and it was like exactly the same for uh for each leg uh and then after the cooling you saw that the control
21:00leg was still a bit elevated compared to rest uh so of course it goes down after exercise but it was still slightly elevated and the cold leg was already actually uh I believe below resting values it was quite a quite a substantial drop did it happen for everyone or there were some cases that that behave differently yeah that's a that's also a different point or um interesting point there were I think two out of 12 that uh didn't really uh show much of an effect uh so I I would say 10 clearly showed an effect and then two like not really of course you always have some variation in uh your measurement so that's why we of course test groups and not only one person so you cannot really say too much about it but still what was also interesting is that those two people if you looked at the incorporation of the amino acid tracer into the muscle also in their muscle
22:00you couldn't really see a large difference and in those other 10 you could so it does it definitely seems that there's quite a a good relationship between the the changes in blood flow and then because of that uh also how nutrients from from the diet actually get into the muscle and of course it makes sense if you say it but it's still good to actually see uh see that back in in the data especially with actually a relatively small sample size all right so let let's go there so we covered to rest exercise then checking the the blood flow after cooling and then we didn't even talk too much about how the traces traveled through the body and what have you found there um could you walk us through that yeah yeah yeah yeah so that was so right after the cooling we had the uh the drink which was essentially just a recovery drink so it had was basically a protein shake that
23:00also had some carbohydrates in it but then we also added the let's say the the special uh amino acid uh so we call it the amino acid tracer so it's uh it's it basically behaves like a normal amino acid but we can uh find it back in the in the body so they drank uh the drink and then you can also see that the the amino acid tracer was like clearly went into the circulation because we took uh quite some uh blood samples and then also throughout the the whole recovery phase uh you could see that this tracer was essentially just growing through the circulation and then because at the very end of the day we took the muscle biopsy from both legs then we could see that in the cooled leg there was uh 30% less of the tracer built into the muscle compared to the uh to the control leg wow so how do you see the tra the tracer is it is it glowing like
24:00how No it's actually it's basically just a the the carbon atoms so you have the an amino acid it has basically like a a whole structure made of of carbon atoms and maybe if people remember from back in the day like chemistry you would have like all the the C's right and you have like H's and CO whatever like a whole structure of a molecule the amino acid tracer is essentially just as exactly the same as a normal amino acid but just the the carbon atoms so the C's they are slightly heavier so they have an additional neutron so basically it's not 12 carbon but it's 13 carbon so technically it's slightly heavier but it still just acts normally like a normal amino acid but because it has those heavier carbon atoms we can detect those using all kinds of uh machines like
25:00very technical machines and we can then see how much of that yeah of the tracer is then back uh or then in this case in the muscle or in the blood so you have like the spike for C12 here and for 13 it will be just slightly off yeah exactly yeah yeah all right wow all right so that look there is no no guessing here it's you saw it it's it's for sure so you found two things one was blood supply was very different 60 to 70% difference of blood supply between the cold leg and the more neutral leg and 30% difference in this special amino acids bound into the muscle after you provided the tracer yeah exactly yeah and then also one of the things that we saw was that there was quite a good correlation between the two so like what I said about the the two participants that didn't really respond in both you could see definitely see a pattern that the people who would let's say have
26:00the the largest negative effect of the cooling in terms of blood flow also had the largest negative effect in the amino acid incorporation into the muscle now from your expert to all the coaches and athletes how would you sum up the results of your study what does it mean for an athlete and a coach yeah so I would be very careful with um using cold water immersion especially during training phases where either muscle growth or the gain and muscle strength is important i would say in those situations I would I would just not do it or if you really want to do it do it as far away from your exercise as possible because yeah what we did now was of course first the exercise and then immediately after into the ice bath so of course it could be that possible negative effects
27:00are are much much less if you just split split them split them up more yeah and I think for for some it can still be useful uh during uh let's say competitions so if you have multiple competitions per day or or a couple days in a row yeah on one hand it it could help for some um but on the other hand yeah is it really helping more than just just a placebo uh placebo effect um I think that's that's the main thing where I'm still struggling with is Yeah still should should people do it during competition i think that's still uh an area that's that we can cannot really say at the moment but because I think in our in in this case in the study that we did the focus was more on on muscle adaptation and I think if you look at performance recovery so let's say uh you had a an intense match and you want to or or a competition and the next day again you need to perform I think that's
28:00that's a very different question that than what we looked at in this study now also there's an aspect of exercising in heat or or hot environment then we have to balance cooling down like literally dropping the temp the body temperature down matching the sun for two hours in a tournament that takes four days and so on so there are there still some benefits we we have to kind of keep the context in mind exactly yeah I agree yeah awesome two more questions to finish the first one is what is your favorite exercise yeah actually I I did do quite some Olympic weightlifting uh for some time and I must say I really like the power clean because it's just like just raw power just like pulling pulling on something full force is just a it's just a good feeling I think so yeah I would definitely say that the the Power Clean is my my favorite yeah all right and the last question is where people can find you if they want to follow your research or ask a question
29:00yeah so research I uh try to kind of share on all kinds of platforms so X or Twitter that's one also LinkedIn of course but also on my Instagram I post about my research sometimes so my handle is basically always just my name but with the W in between so it's Milan W Betz and yeah with that handle I'm I think you can find me on several platforms yeah all right Milan thank you so much for today I learned a lot I hope that the audience will enjoy too i hope so too thanks for having me