00:00all right welcome back to the podcast I all right welcome back to the podcast I am joined today with Liam Browning he is am joined today with Liam Browning he is am joined today with Liam Browning he is a return guest to the podcast uh because a return guest to the podcast uh because a return guest to the podcast uh because of his deep desire to be willing to dive of his deep desire to be willing to dive of his deep desire to be willing to dive into topics of into topics of into topics of my I guess our interest my interest this my I guess our interest my interest this my I guess our interest my interest this one was more my interest uh today we'll one was more my interest uh today we'll one was more my interest uh today we'll be talking about cold exposure it's a be talking about cold exposure it's a be talking about cold exposure it's a practice of practice of practice of immersion into ice baths cold plunges immersion into ice baths cold plunges immersion into ice baths cold plunges cold Water cold Water cold Water Swimming cold showers Swimming cold showers Swimming cold showers cryotherapy uh which has surged in cryotherapy uh which has surged in cryotherapy uh which has surged in popularity I remember um I watched the popularity I remember um I watched the popularity I remember um I watched the Wim Hoff documentary and you you watch Wim Hoff documentary and you you watch Wim Hoff documentary and you you watch these guys visiting Wim Hoff and I had these guys visiting Wim Hoff and I had these guys visiting Wim Hoff and I had never been in a cold immersion when I never been in a cold immersion when I never been in a cold immersion when I watched this thing and you know you're watched this thing and you know you're watched this thing and you know you're watching these guys jump into ice cold watching these guys jump into ice cold watching these guys jump into ice cold waterfalls and you're like I don't know waterfalls and you're like I don't know waterfalls and you're like I don't know if I could do that you know they this if I could do that you know they this if I could do that you know they this like super long hike in the in the like super long hike in the in the like super long hike in the in the Arctic cold freezing and they're in the
01:00Arctic cold freezing and they're in the Arctic cold freezing and they're in the sauna and they're they're back in the sauna and they're they're back in the sauna and they're they're back in the cold and then they're in the sauna and cold and then they're in the sauna and cold and then they're in the sauna and they're back in the cold and you're like they're back in the cold and you're like they're back in the cold and you're like what is this like and then you know all what is this like and then you know all what is this like and then you know all of a sudden everyone starts talking of a sudden everyone starts talking of a sudden everyone starts talking about it um and you know so I got about it um and you know so I got about it um and you know so I got interested in it a couple years ago interested in it a couple years ago interested in it a couple years ago Built My Own coal plunge went out this Built My Own coal plunge went out this Built My Own coal plunge went out this morning did four minutes at 42 degrees morning did four minutes at 42 degrees morning did four minutes at 42 degrees Fahrenheit uh just because I knew I was Fahrenheit uh just because I knew I was Fahrenheit uh just because I knew I was coming on you know yeah you had to say coming on you know yeah you had to say coming on you know yeah you had to say that you've done it so you can talk that you've done it so you can talk that you've done it so you can talk about it I I had to read experience it about it I I had to read experience it about it I I had to read experience it and and you know I've I've recommended and and you know I've I've recommended and and you know I've I've recommended it to a couple patients who have had it to a couple patients who have had it to a couple patients who have had good results we're going to talk about good results we're going to talk about good results we're going to talk about this today we're going to go through this today we're going to go through this today we're going to go through every study this will be the most every study this will be the most every study this will be the most comprehensive comprehensive comprehensive audio article out there I would say at audio article out there I would say at audio article out there I would say at this point and um we've we've looked at this point and um we've we've looked at this point and um we've we've looked at other podcasters famous ones that have other podcasters famous ones that have other podcasters famous ones that have talked about this but we will go study talked about this but we will go study talked about this but we will go study by study what is currently known what is by study what is currently known what is by study what is currently known what is not not not known we we've been talking yesterday
02:00known we we've been talking yesterday known we we've been talking yesterday about like man we should we should raise about like man we should we should raise about like man we should we should raise some money to study this and do a really some money to study this and do a really some money to study this and do a really nice randomized control trial because nice randomized control trial because nice randomized control trial because there's there is really nothing no there's there is really nothing no there's there is really nothing no nothing at all really there is there is nothing at all really there is there is nothing at all really there is there is no really nice randomized control trials no really nice randomized control trials no really nice randomized control trials that we could find like and we'll talk that we could find like and we'll talk that we could find like and we'll talk about all of them and you know it's kind about all of them and you know it's kind about all of them and you know it's kind of like uh kind of like the ketogenic of like uh kind of like the ketogenic of like uh kind of like the ketogenic diet for some people it's like they diet for some people it's like they diet for some people it's like they swear by it swear by it swear by it um not very many of my patients will do um not very many of my patients will do um not very many of my patients will do it it it right you know it's kind of like off right you know it's kind of like off right you know it's kind of like off label it's got its own risks we're going label it's got its own risks we're going label it's got its own risks we're going to talk about those as to talk about those as to talk about those as well but you know on this podcast we well but you know on this podcast we well but you know on this podcast we really seek to look at things that may really seek to look at things that may really seek to look at things that may work you know there's a lot of things we work you know there's a lot of things we work you know there's a lot of things we don't cover like beas don't cover like beas don't cover like beas stings probably not going to work uh stings probably not going to work uh stings probably not going to work uh homeopathic remedies not going to work homeopathic remedies not going to work homeopathic remedies not going to work right it's just diluted water um sorry
03:00right it's just diluted water um sorry right it's just diluted water um sorry if I offended you I can give you some if I offended you I can give you some if I offended you I can give you some empathy if you come to me for empathy if you come to me for empathy if you come to me for therapy uh okay so Liam back at it therapy uh okay so Liam back at it therapy uh okay so Liam back at it recently engaged yep thank you so recently engaged yep thank you so recently engaged yep thank you so excited to see those pictures yeah I'm excited to see those pictures yeah I'm excited to see those pictures yeah I'm so excited yeah you you'll be at the so excited yeah you you'll be at the so excited yeah you you'll be at the wedding too so don't worry yeah Liam wedding too so don't worry yeah Liam wedding too so don't worry yeah Liam told me I'm gonna officiate the wedding told me I'm gonna officiate the wedding told me I'm gonna officiate the wedding yeah we're gonna live stream it on Instagram that's a Instagram that's a joke um no I'm just happy to be there joke um no I'm just happy to be there joke um no I'm just happy to be there and celebrate you and celebrate man and celebrate you and celebrate man and celebrate you and celebrate man there's so many of my patients that want there's so many of my patients that want there's so many of my patients that want to be happily engaged happily married to be happily engaged happily married to be happily engaged happily married and it is a tough dating landscape right and it is a tough dating landscape right and it is a tough dating landscape right now yeah it's really tough out there and now yeah it's really tough out there and now yeah it's really tough out there and I I feel for them a lot of my friends I I feel for them a lot of my friends I I feel for them a lot of my friends are are going through it so yeah it's are are going through it so yeah it's are are going through it so yeah it's really tough I just want to say yeah really tough I just want to say yeah really tough I just want to say yeah thanks for having me back on it's always thanks for having me back on it's always thanks for having me back on it's always a a pleasure to dive into these some of a a pleasure to dive into these some of a a pleasure to dive into these some of these topics together and really follow these topics together and really follow these topics together and really follow our curiosity about you you know what's
04:00our curiosity about you you know what's our curiosity about you you know what's been going on in the mental health been going on in the mental health been going on in the mental health sphere because this is really a practice sphere because this is really a practice sphere because this is really a practice that's talked about by so many different that's talked about by so many different that's talked about by so many different podcasters so many different social podcasters so many different social podcasters so many different social media influencers and you know they're media influencers and you know they're media influencers and you know they're making all these these claims about how making all these these claims about how making all these these claims about how it's beneficial for their mental health it's beneficial for their mental health it's beneficial for their mental health like helping them boost their mental like helping them boost their mental like helping them boost their mental Clarity and all these different claims Clarity and all these different claims Clarity and all these different claims so I just really wanted to dive into so I just really wanted to dive into so I just really wanted to dive into this with you and it's been an enjoyable this with you and it's been an enjoyable this with you and it's been an enjoyable experience so far some say the best experience so far some say the best experience so far some say the best thing about coal plunging is telling thing about coal plunging is telling thing about coal plunging is telling other people that you're coal plunging other people that you're coal plunging other people that you're coal plunging yeah exactly you get to put it on your yeah exactly you get to put it on your yeah exactly you get to put it on your Instagram story and your Instagram story and your Instagram story and your Snapchat yeah say I woke up look what I Snapchat yeah say I woke up look what I Snapchat yeah say I woke up look what I did I woke up at 4:00 a.m. did my C did I woke up at 4:00 a.m. did my C did I woke up at 4:00 a.m. did my C plunge and did a run while you're still plunge and did a run while you're still plunge and did a run while you're still in your warm bed that's like the ethos in your warm bed that's like the ethos in your warm bed that's like the ethos behind it I feel Liam Liam came out to behind it I feel Liam Liam came out to behind it I feel Liam Liam came out to my house and he got to cold Plunge at my my house and he got to cold Plunge at my my house and he got to cold Plunge at my house and it was like it was it was one house and it was like it was it was one house and it was like it was it was one of your first ones right yeah that was of your first ones right yeah that was of your first ones right yeah that was my first time that was your first time my first time that was your first time my first time that was your first time okay and what was that experience like okay and what was that experience like okay and what was that experience like oh it was it was an immediate shock like oh it was it was an immediate shock like oh it was it was an immediate shock like I've done cold showers before but I I
05:00I've done cold showers before but I I I've done cold showers before but I I don't think anything compares to getting don't think anything compares to getting don't think anything compares to getting into water that is like ice cold like into water that is like ice cold like into water that is like ice cold like you immediately just want to get out you immediately just want to get out you immediately just want to get out like it's so cold and I think yours is like it's so cold and I think yours is like it's so cold and I think yours is especially cold too like you've got the especially cold too like you've got the especially cold too like you've got the whole setup so the water's constantly whole setup so the water's constantly whole setup so the water's constantly circulating too that really takes um circulating too that really takes um circulating too that really takes um because normally when you're in cold because normally when you're in cold because normally when you're in cold water you you develop a little bit of a water you you develop a little bit of a water you you develop a little bit of a um a barrier eventually yeah that's why um a barrier eventually yeah that's why um a barrier eventually yeah that's why like the first 45 seconds are the like the first 45 seconds are the like the first 45 seconds are the hardest but if you have it constantly hardest but if you have it constantly hardest but if you have it constantly circulating the areas that are circulating the areas that are circulating the areas that are circulating are so circulating are so circulating are so cold I You full five minutes yeah I did cold I You full five minutes yeah I did cold I You full five minutes yeah I did five minutes it was pretty intense like five minutes it was pretty intense like five minutes it was pretty intense like I I probably did it a little bit more I I probably did it a little bit more I I probably did it a little bit more than I should have because it was my than I should have because it was my than I should have because it was my first time but I wanted to get the true first time but I wanted to get the true first time but I wanted to get the true effect and yeah it definitely was a effect and yeah it definitely was a effect and yeah it definitely was a shock at first but you kind of ease into shock at first but you kind of ease into shock at first but you kind of ease into it and I end up being really calm and it and I end up being really calm and it and I end up being really calm and relaxed after so I can definitely see relaxed after so I can definitely see relaxed after so I can definitely see like why people would think that it's like why people would think that it's like why people would think that it's beneficial there's some days I come home beneficial there's some days I come home beneficial there's some days I come home and I'm like it's the haze of War you and I'm like it's the haze of War you and I'm like it's the haze of War you know I've talked to P patients about
06:00know I've talked to P patients about know I've talked to P patients about trauma you know hours of of different trauma you know hours of of different trauma you know hours of of different therapy sessions you know I usually do therapy sessions you know I usually do therapy sessions you know I usually do about 8 and a half hours a day on a full about 8 and a half hours a day on a full about 8 and a half hours a day on a full day and my wife will be like can you go day and my wife will be like can you go day and my wife will be like can you go cold plunge like because afterwards my cold plunge like because afterwards my cold plunge like because afterwards my brain just comes back online you know brain just comes back online you know brain just comes back online you know it's like it just wakes up right really it's like it just wakes up right really it's like it just wakes up right really really uh like it's a shock to the really uh like it's a shock to the really uh like it's a shock to the system yeah so let's talk about the system yeah so let's talk about the system yeah so let's talk about the different forms real quick um cold water different forms real quick um cold water different forms real quick um cold water immersion usually around 40 to 60 Dees immersion usually around 40 to 60 Dees immersion usually around 40 to 60 Dees Fahrenheit that's 5 to 15° Fahrenheit that's 5 to 15° Fahrenheit that's 5 to 15° centigrate for 2 to 15 minutes I would centigrate for 2 to 15 minutes I would centigrate for 2 to 15 minutes I would say 15 minutes you cannot do 15 minutes say 15 minutes you cannot do 15 minutes say 15 minutes you cannot do 15 minutes comfortably at 40 degrees like when when comfortably at 40 degrees like when when comfortably at 40 degrees like when when you're around 40 degrees just from my you're around 40 degrees just from my you're around 40 degrees just from my experience five minutes seven minutes experience five minutes seven minutes experience five minutes seven minutes you're good you're good you're good um really uh dark studies from Nazi um really uh dark studies from Nazi um really uh dark studies from Nazi Germany they would they were trying to Germany they would they were trying to Germany they would they were trying to they would stick people in the ice cold they would stick people in the ice cold they would stick people in the ice cold water see how long they could live 45 water see how long they could live 45 water see how long they could live 45 minutes for a lot of people around that
07:00minutes for a lot of people around that minutes for a lot of people around that time so you know 15 minutes is pretty time so you know 15 minutes is pretty time so you know 15 minutes is pretty pretty pretty pretty extensive extensive extensive um yeah I think that's for some of the um yeah I think that's for some of the um yeah I think that's for some of the more warmer temperatures because we'll more warmer temperatures because we'll more warmer temperatures because we'll get into some of these studies but one get into some of these studies but one get into some of these studies but one of them it was like 60 Dees Fahrenheit of them it was like 60 Dees Fahrenheit of them it was like 60 Dees Fahrenheit and they were in there for an hour so I and they were in there for an hour so I and they were in there for an hour so I mean it's like almost the temperature of mean it's like almost the temperature of mean it's like almost the temperature of a colder pool it's like we also when you a colder pool it's like we also when you a colder pool it's like we also when you visited went to a spring it was like visited went to a spring it was like visited went to a spring it was like it's like it's like it's like 65 66 degrees all year which is why in 65 66 degrees all year which is why in 65 66 degrees all year which is why in Florida it's like a Florida it's like a Florida it's like a total amazing place to go right yeah um total amazing place to go right yeah um total amazing place to go right yeah um but yeah you'll be in there for an hour but yeah you'll be in there for an hour but yeah you'll be in there for an hour and you won't think about it that much and you won't think about it that much and you won't think about it that much but I and that's why I'm like reading but I and that's why I'm like reading but I and that's why I'm like reading these studies I'm like oh can you guys these studies I'm like oh can you guys these studies I'm like oh can you guys go a little bit colder for even that for go a little bit colder for even that for go a little bit colder for even that for for that five minute six minute time for that five minute six minute time for that five minute six minute time period because that seems to be like period because that seems to be like period because that seems to be like that sweet spot for me um there's cry that sweet spot for me um there's cry that sweet spot for me um there's cry therapy which is two to four minutes therapy which is two to four minutes therapy which is two to four minutes at 166 to 220 degrees negative
08:00at 166 to 220 degrees negative at 166 to 220 degrees negative Fahrenheit now you know we we can't even Fahrenheit now you know we we can't even Fahrenheit now you know we we can't even think in terms of how cold that is like think in terms of how cold that is like think in terms of how cold that is like in terms of our normal in terms of our normal in terms of our normal understanding um but you have to realize understanding um but you have to realize understanding um but you have to realize the conductivity is totally different the conductivity is totally different the conductivity is totally different than water and I've had friends who have than water and I've had friends who have than water and I've had friends who have done cold plunging with me and done cryo done cold plunging with me and done cryo done cold plunging with me and done cryo and they and they and they say that the cold plunge is is a lot say that the cold plunge is is a lot say that the cold plunge is is a lot harder harder harder psychologically um C you know 25 times psychologically um C you know 25 times psychologically um C you know 25 times more basically conductivity with water more basically conductivity with water more basically conductivity with water compared to air okay and I think when compared to air okay and I think when compared to air okay and I think when you have circulating water is you have circulating water is you have circulating water is probably probably even worse because you probably probably even worse because you probably probably even worse because you don't have that like thermal don't have that like thermal don't have that like thermal barrier that develops so yeah so there's barrier that develops so yeah so there's barrier that develops so yeah so there's cryotherapy but we have some studies on cryotherapy but we have some studies on cryotherapy but we have some studies on that we're going to talk about because that we're going to talk about because that we're going to talk about because there actually have been there actually have been there actually have been some talk about cold showers so some some talk about cold showers so some some talk about cold showers so some patients will be like can I just take a patients will be like can I just take a patients will be like can I just take a cold shower and I'm like you're in cold shower and I'm like you're in cold shower and I'm like you're in Florida nothing is cold Florida nothing is cold Florida nothing is cold here um it's like the water comes out at here um it's like the water comes out at here um it's like the water comes out at 75 degrees 75 degrees
09:0075 degrees that's not cold you need to go to that's not cold you need to go to that's not cold you need to go to there's a there's a place around here there's a there's a place around here there's a there's a place around here like a some y MCAS there's some like a some y MCAS there's some like a some y MCAS there's some different gyms that have cold plunge different gyms that have cold plunge different gyms that have cold plunge saunas I'm like just go to one of saunas I'm like just go to one of saunas I'm like just go to one of those and and try it out see if it's those and and try it out see if it's those and and try it out see if it's helpful and then there's ice baths just helpful and then there's ice baths just helpful and then there's ice baths just putting ice into your like put you know putting ice into your like put you know putting ice into your like put you know put the water as cold as you can add put the water as cold as you can add put the water as cold as you can add some ice I did this this is how I some ice I did this this is how I some ice I did this this is how I started did this with my kids uh start started did this with my kids uh start started did this with my kids uh start out with like 30 pounds of ice worked out with like 30 pounds of ice worked out with like 30 pounds of ice worked our up to about 50 our up to about 50 our up to about 50 60 60 60 um and uh then we'd have some friends um and uh then we'd have some friends um and uh then we'd have some friends over and do it together and was like the over and do it together and was like the over and do it together and was like the whole bath ice no or is it with water whole bath ice no or is it with water whole bath ice no or is it with water too yeah with water mostly water um 50 too yeah with water mostly water um 50 too yeah with water mostly water um 50 pounds is not that much pounds is not that much pounds is not that much actually yeah because a lot a lot of actually yeah because a lot a lot of actually yeah because a lot a lot of athletes they use the ice baths like an athletes they use the ice baths like an athletes they use the ice baths like an entire tub of just ice and that's like entire tub of just ice and that's like entire tub of just ice and that's like it's not as cold because there's some it's not as cold because there's some it's not as cold because there's some pockets of air in the ice yeah I think pockets of air in the ice yeah I think pockets of air in the ice yeah I think Wim Hoff has been in pure ice for like
10:00Wim Hoff has been in pure ice for like Wim Hoff has been in pure ice for like what I think it was like a couple hours what I think it was like a couple hours what I think it was like a couple hours or something yeah it was hours yeah and or something yeah it was hours yeah and or something yeah it was hours yeah and so it's it's a lot easier because so it's it's a lot easier because so it's it's a lot easier because essentially there's very few points of essentially there's very few points of essentially there's very few points of contact with your skin if especially if contact with your skin if especially if contact with your skin if especially if you're using the right type of ice and you're using the right type of ice and you're using the right type of ice and then essentially you're just in cold air then essentially you're just in cold air then essentially you're just in cold air and then the water drips down yeah so and then the water drips down yeah so and then the water drips down yeah so impressive nonetheless 12 hours is impressive nonetheless 12 hours is impressive nonetheless 12 hours is insane it's insane it's insane it's impressive yeah it's not like the impressive yeah it's not like the impressive yeah it's not like the Guinness Book of Records is not fun in Guinness Book of Records is not fun in Guinness Book of Records is not fun in my mind for heat or my mind for heat or my mind for heat or cold no we talked about the heat one cold no we talked about the heat one cold no we talked about the heat one where they're in a boiling hot sauna and where they're in a boiling hot sauna and where they're in a boiling hot sauna and you know it's it's just crazy how much you know it's it's just crazy how much you know it's it's just crazy how much the body can withstand after it adapts the body can withstand after it adapts the body can withstand after it adapts and stuff they stopped they stopped and stuff they stopped they stopped and stuff they stopped they stopped doing it so hot after some people passed doing it so hot after some people passed doing it so hot after some people passed away unfortunately yeah um but they were away unfortunately yeah um but they were away unfortunately yeah um but they were doing like six or seven minutes at like doing like six or seven minutes at like doing like six or seven minutes at like 230 with 230 with 230 with steam it w wild it is wild wild so and steam it w wild it is wild wild so and steam it w wild it is wild wild so and then um you know there's a video I saw then um you know there's a video I saw then um you know there's a video I saw the ican whm Hof swimming under ice
11:00the ican whm Hof swimming under ice the ican whm Hof swimming under ice water for like 50 yards it's like oh my water for like 50 yards it's like oh my water for like 50 yards it's like oh my gosh CU I I put my head underwater for gosh CU I I put my head underwater for gosh CU I I put my head underwater for like 10 or 15 seconds and I start like 10 or 15 seconds and I start like 10 or 15 seconds and I start getting that like freeze pain you getting that like freeze pain you getting that like freeze pain you know so I can't know so I can't know so I can't imagine he's a beast yeah okay so the imagine he's a beast yeah okay so the imagine he's a beast yeah okay so the history of cold therapy you want to talk history of cold therapy you want to talk history of cold therapy you want to talk about this at all yeah so this is a a about this at all yeah so this is a a about this at all yeah so this is a a practice that kind of goes back at least practice that kind of goes back at least practice that kind of goes back at least what I was able to find to like Greek what I was able to find to like Greek what I was able to find to like Greek and Roman times where we talked about and Roman times where we talked about and Roman times where we talked about before they had these these hot uh bath before they had these these hot uh bath before they had these these hot uh bath houses and they also had some cold uh houses and they also had some cold uh houses and they also had some cold uh water in these houses too with ice water in these houses too with ice water in these houses too with ice apparently and um you know this is also apparently and um you know this is also apparently and um you know this is also something that Hippocrates and Galen something that Hippocrates and Galen something that Hippocrates and Galen like these Physicians back in those like these Physicians back in those like these Physicians back in those times they espouse the benefits of cold times they espouse the benefits of cold times they espouse the benefits of cold water uh for the use of fever and and water uh for the use of fever and and water uh for the use of fever and and Galen the Roman physician he actually Galen the Roman physician he actually Galen the Roman physician he actually started using ice for to stop bleeding
12:00started using ice for to stop bleeding started using ice for to stop bleeding so even then they could observe that so even then they could observe that so even then they could observe that there is some vasoconstrictive effects there is some vasoconstrictive effects there is some vasoconstrictive effects of of cold and you know this practice is of of cold and you know this practice is of of cold and you know this practice is is kind of gone out of favor with more is kind of gone out of favor with more is kind of gone out of favor with more Western cultures like in the Americas Western cultures like in the Americas Western cultures like in the Americas but it's been continued through the but it's been continued through the but it's been continued through the Nordic countries um like Denmark uh Nordic countries um like Denmark uh Nordic countries um like Denmark uh Finland and so on and where there it's Finland and so on and where there it's Finland and so on and where there it's used as kind of like we talked about the used as kind of like we talked about the used as kind of like we talked about the hot and cold therapy where they go from hot and cold therapy where they go from hot and cold therapy where they go from a sauna into the coal plunge and then a sauna into the coal plunge and then a sauna into the coal plunge and then back into sauna or um it's often used as back into sauna or um it's often used as back into sauna or um it's often used as like a way to vitalize yourself after like a way to vitalize yourself after like a way to vitalize yourself after work like in Denmark there's a pretty work like in Denmark there's a pretty work like in Denmark there's a pretty big culture around Ice Water Swimming big culture around Ice Water Swimming big culture around Ice Water Swimming where they go out into the sea after where they go out into the sea after where they go out into the sea after work and they all meet up and then they work and they all meet up and then they work and they all meet up and then they go Plunge in the water swim around for a go Plunge in the water swim around for a go Plunge in the water swim around for a couple minutes and then they hop back in couple minutes and then they hop back in couple minutes and then they hop back in and they continue on with their day so and they continue on with their day so and they continue on with their day so it's it's really a a practice that's it's it's really a a practice that's it's it's really a a practice that's ingrained into the culture and it's ingrained into the culture and it's ingrained into the culture and it's starting to get picked up Now by uh like
13:00starting to get picked up Now by uh like starting to get picked up Now by uh like these podcasters and social media these podcasters and social media these podcasters and social media influencers so a lot of people in influencers so a lot of people in influencers so a lot of people in America are starting to do it you know America are starting to do it you know America are starting to do it you know we looked at this um this study the cpio we looked at this um this study the cpio we looked at this um this study the cpio esic heart disease study which um was esic heart disease study which um was esic heart disease study which um was discussed on episode discussed on episode discussed on episode 221 on sauna basically and um there was 221 on sauna basically and um there was 221 on sauna basically and um there was a cohort a Finnish men that they a cohort a Finnish men that they a cohort a Finnish men that they followed for followed for followed for decades and they found that those that decades and they found that those that decades and they found that those that used SAA is the sauna four to seven used SAA is the sauna four to seven used SAA is the sauna four to seven times per week had huge reductions in times per week had huge reductions in times per week had huge reductions in significant medical issues you know 62% significant medical issues you know 62% significant medical issues you know 62% lower risk of lower risk of lower risk of stroke 66% decreased risk of stroke 66% decreased risk of stroke 66% decreased risk of dementia 37% lower risk of dementia 37% lower risk of dementia 37% lower risk of pneumonia 78% lower risk of psychotic pneumonia 78% lower risk of psychotic pneumonia 78% lower risk of psychotic disorder disorder disorder okay uh there was a decrease in all
14:00okay uh there was a decrease in all okay uh there was a decrease in all cause mortality compared to the people cause mortality compared to the people cause mortality compared to the people that were using the sauna one time a that were using the sauna one time a that were using the sauna one time a week interestingly in Finland there is week interestingly in Finland there is week interestingly in Finland there is no zero time per week control in the no zero time per week control in the no zero time per week control in the cohort because everyone uses a sauna cohort because everyone uses a sauna cohort because everyone uses a sauna roughly one time a week so I was roughly one time a week so I was roughly one time a week so I was thinking about this and I was like well thinking about this and I was like well thinking about this and I was like well how often are these people using cold how often are these people using cold how often are these people using cold exposure as part of their thing because exposure as part of their thing because exposure as part of their thing because a lot of the times they'll talk about a lot of the times they'll talk about a lot of the times they'll talk about like how they do hot cold hot cold cold like how they do hot cold hot cold cold like how they do hot cold hot cold cold hot cold hot you know usually they hot cold hot you know usually they hot cold hot you know usually they finish in cold finish in cold finish in cold um and uh so I emailed the authors we um and uh so I emailed the authors we um and uh so I emailed the authors we haven't heard back but we did we did a haven't heard back but we did we did a haven't heard back but we did we did a search and it's pretty usual to end with search and it's pretty usual to end with search and it's pretty usual to end with either a cold shower a cold dip and a either a cold shower a cold dip and a either a cold shower a cold dip and a lake and so one of the things that lake and so one of the things that lake and so one of the things that wasn't wasn't wasn't controlled in this study was the the the controlled in this study was the the the controlled in this study was the the the the use of cold and how that impacts the the use of cold and how that impacts the the use of cold and how that impacts the overall overall overall you know physical mental wellbeing as
15:00you know physical mental wellbeing as you know physical mental wellbeing as well right and there's really no well right and there's really no well right and there's really no epidemiological studies looking at this epidemiological studies looking at this epidemiological studies looking at this practice which I think that's somewhere practice which I think that's somewhere practice which I think that's somewhere that we could start with pretty easily that we could start with pretty easily that we could start with pretty easily for looking at the the mental health for looking at the the mental health for looking at the the mental health benefits of cold um and I think yeah benefits of cold um and I think yeah benefits of cold um and I think yeah we'd have to look at some of these Finn we'd have to look at some of these Finn we'd have to look at some of these Finn cultures who use a practice more cultures who use a practice more cultures who use a practice more regularly compared to like in the US regularly compared to like in the US regularly compared to like in the US where not as many people use it so yeah where not as many people use it so yeah where not as many people use it so yeah I mean it's definitely a practice that's I mean it's definitely a practice that's I mean it's definitely a practice that's more common there so there could be some more common there so there could be some more common there so there could be some benefit to it that was that you can benefit to it that was that you can benefit to it that was that you can attribute some of the benefits of sauna attribute some of the benefits of sauna attribute some of the benefits of sauna potentially from this study there's a potentially from this study there's a potentially from this study there's a big large um winter swimming Society out big large um winter swimming Society out big large um winter swimming Society out there um you know 100,000 members type there um you know 100,000 members type there um you know 100,000 members type of thing you so this is this is of thing you so this is this is of thing you so this is this is something that in the US is just something that in the US is just something that in the US is just completely unknown so it's like we're completely unknown so it's like we're completely unknown so it's like we're discovering it no we invented it in the discovering it no we invented it in the discovering it no we invented it in the US it's kind of how we feel the way um US it's kind of how we feel the way um US it's kind of how we feel the way um they didn't they didn't discover this we they didn't they didn't discover this we they didn't they didn't discover this we are the ones that are discovering the are the ones that are discovering the are the ones that are discovering the sauna the cold
16:00sauna the cold sauna the cold plunge um the thing is is that you know plunge um the thing is is that you know plunge um the thing is is that you know in Florida here there's no cold water in Florida here there's no cold water in Florida here there's no cold water like you have to create your own so I like you have to create your own so I like you have to create your own so I like bought this large cooler and I like bought this large cooler and I like bought this large cooler and I hooked up I spent several weeks kind of hooked up I spent several weeks kind of hooked up I spent several weeks kind of Designing this thing built a Designing this thing built a Designing this thing built a pump with a filter and then it goes pump with a filter and then it goes pump with a filter and then it goes through like a refrigerating device and through like a refrigerating device and through like a refrigerating device and back to the thing otherwise you have to back to the thing otherwise you have to back to the thing otherwise you have to spend like 56 Grand on it which is so spend like 56 Grand on it which is so spend like 56 Grand on it which is so expensive right if you don't have access expensive right if you don't have access expensive right if you don't have access to like a cold lake then you're not you to like a cold lake then you're not you to like a cold lake then you're not you don't have like an easy way to do it don't have like an easy way to do it don't have like an easy way to do it whereas like in these Scandinavian whereas like in these Scandinavian whereas like in these Scandinavian countries everyone is outside like they countries everyone is outside like they countries everyone is outside like they have easy access to like um and like I have easy access to like um and like I have easy access to like um and like I think that one of the main differences think that one of the main differences think that one of the main differences between cold plunges here versus there between cold plunges here versus there between cold plunges here versus there is that there is more of like a social is that there is more of like a social is that there is more of like a social practice like they use it all to relax practice like they use it all to relax practice like they use it all to relax together or they do it like after work together or they do it like after work together or they do it like after work like I mentioned in Denmark whereas here like I mentioned in Denmark whereas here like I mentioned in Denmark whereas here it's more so like individuals like I do it's more so like individuals like I do it's more so like individuals like I do the cold shower by myself then I get out the cold shower by myself then I get out the cold shower by myself then I get out with my day or like I do the cold plunge with my day or like I do the cold plunge with my day or like I do the cold plunge uh so I think there's less availability
17:00uh so I think there's less availability uh so I think there's less availability for that the social aspect uh at least for that the social aspect uh at least for that the social aspect uh at least in the states yeah and I um I built a in the states yeah and I um I built a in the states yeah and I um I built a sauna and so next time you come out here sauna and so next time you come out here sauna and so next time you come out here you're G to have that group aspect I you're G to have that group aspect I you're G to have that group aspect I don't know I I think there's something don't know I I think there's something don't know I I think there's something about that that's fun you know it's about that that's fun you know it's about that that's fun you know it's like four people come like four people come like four people come over cook an a sauna together go to a over cook an a sauna together go to a over cook an a sauna together go to a cold punch I'm like okay follow the data cold punch I'm like okay follow the data cold punch I'm like okay follow the data right okay so what is happening to the right okay so what is happening to the right okay so what is happening to the body during cold exposure body during cold exposure body during cold exposure and so there's the bottom up signals and and so there's the bottom up signals and and so there's the bottom up signals and then there's top down signals let talk then there's top down signals let talk then there's top down signals let talk to me first about the bottom up signals to me first about the bottom up signals to me first about the bottom up signals of the B you know the bottom up signals of the B you know the bottom up signals of the B you know the bottom up signals are like the signals from the body are like the signals from the body are like the signals from the body essentially telling us that we're in essentially telling us that we're in essentially telling us that we're in shock like we need to do something to to shock like we need to do something to to shock like we need to do something to to get out of this situation or scenario so get out of this situation or scenario so get out of this situation or scenario so that first starts with the thermo that first starts with the thermo that first starts with the thermo receptors on the skin detecting the receptors on the skin detecting the receptors on the skin detecting the rapid temperature drop uh and then this rapid temperature drop uh and then this rapid temperature drop uh and then this eventually leads to activation of eventually leads to activation of eventually leads to activation of sensory fibers uh and the spine and then sensory fibers uh and the spine and then sensory fibers uh and the spine and then up into the hypothalamus that detects
18:00up into the hypothalamus that detects up into the hypothalamus that detects the temperature change and you know this the temperature change and you know this the temperature change and you know this rapid temperature change again tells us rapid temperature change again tells us rapid temperature change again tells us that we're we need to move and to get that we're we need to move and to get that we're we need to move and to get out of this situation so this activates out of this situation so this activates out of this situation so this activates the sympathetic nervous system uh which the sympathetic nervous system uh which the sympathetic nervous system uh which is adrenaline is involved here norrine is adrenaline is involved here norrine is adrenaline is involved here norrine or noradrenaline uh they're released or noradrenaline uh they're released or noradrenaline uh they're released from the adrenals uh in response to the from the adrenals uh in response to the from the adrenals uh in response to the signals from the hypothalamus and the signals from the hypothalamus and the signals from the hypothalamus and the sympathetic nervous system and at the sympathetic nervous system and at the sympathetic nervous system and at the same time we also get activation of the same time we also get activation of the same time we also get activation of the HPA HPA HPA axis and then this also continues the axis and then this also continues the axis and then this also continues the release of neuro nephrine in the brain release of neuro nephrine in the brain release of neuro nephrine in the brain too so in the brain these are the the too so in the brain these are the the too so in the brain these are the the top down signals um even before we start top down signals um even before we start top down signals um even before we start doing the cold Plunge in anticipation of doing the cold Plunge in anticipation of doing the cold Plunge in anticipation of the cold like we see the the cold Plunge the cold like we see the the cold Plunge the cold like we see the the cold Plunge in front of us and we kind of have to in front of us and we kind of have to in front of us and we kind of have to Hype ourselves up to get into it uh so Hype ourselves up to get into it uh so Hype ourselves up to get into it uh so that's like already activating parts of that's like already activating parts of that's like already activating parts of the brain telling us this is a a the brain telling us this is a a the brain telling us this is a a scenario that's going to be dangerous to scenario that's going to be dangerous to scenario that's going to be dangerous to us uh so these parts of the brain like us uh so these parts of the brain like us uh so these parts of the brain like the prefrontal cortex uh the ins the the prefrontal cortex uh the ins the the prefrontal cortex uh the ins the amigdala they're processing uh the
19:00amigdala they're processing uh the amigdala they're processing uh the relative danger it is uh to us and all relative danger it is uh to us and all relative danger it is uh to us and all these circuits they converge onto the these circuits they converge onto the these circuits they converge onto the anxiety centers of the brain the Salient anxiety centers of the brain the Salient anxiety centers of the brain the Salient centers and these will then go on to centers and these will then go on to centers and these will then go on to activate the hypothalamus once again uh activate the hypothalamus once again uh activate the hypothalamus once again uh and to increase the release of and to increase the release of and to increase the release of corticotropin releasing hormone uh which corticotropin releasing hormone uh which corticotropin releasing hormone uh which is the first hormone of the HP axis and is the first hormone of the HP axis and is the first hormone of the HP axis and is also a neuromodulator increases is also a neuromodulator increases is also a neuromodulator increases activity of the amydala um and then also activity of the amydala um and then also activity of the amydala um and then also the the part of the hypothalamus that the the part of the hypothalamus that the the part of the hypothalamus that releases CR will then activate the locus releases CR will then activate the locus releases CR will then activate the locus culus which is the brain's main uh culus which is the brain's main uh culus which is the brain's main uh Storage Center for nephrine so in fact Storage Center for nephrine so in fact Storage Center for nephrine so in fact you're even just from looking at the you're even just from looking at the you're even just from looking at the cold and anticipating it you have a cold and anticipating it you have a cold and anticipating it you have a psychological response that activates psychological response that activates psychological response that activates the sympathetic nervous system as well the sympathetic nervous system as well the sympathetic nervous system as well in the HP axis yeah and it's interesting in the HP axis yeah and it's interesting in the HP axis yeah and it's interesting how when this how when this how when this happens you know that amydala response happens you know that amydala response happens you know that amydala response the locus cilus releasing the orine the locus cilus releasing the orine the locus cilus releasing the orine phrine phrine phrine that fear response I mean you gasp like
20:00that fear response I mean you gasp like that fear response I mean you gasp like there's a gasp reflex where you just there's a gasp reflex where you just there's a gasp reflex where you just it's and and actually that gasping is it's and and actually that gasping is it's and and actually that gasping is what usually leads to people breathing what usually leads to people breathing what usually leads to people breathing in the cold water like if they if when in the cold water like if they if when in the cold water like if they if when people break through ice and they hit people break through ice and they hit people break through ice and they hit cold water and they that gasp reflex is cold water and they that gasp reflex is cold water and they that gasp reflex is so so so strong um other things that can happen strong um other things that can happen strong um other things that can happen the vas of constriction blood vessels the vas of constriction blood vessels the vas of constriction blood vessels right on the right on the right on the skin contract skin contract skin contract so that you're not like releasing a ton so that you're not like releasing a ton so that you're not like releasing a ton of temperature of temperature of temperature out out out um nerve conduction slows in the cold um nerve conduction slows in the cold um nerve conduction slows in the cold leading to a reduction in in pain and leading to a reduction in in pain and leading to a reduction in in pain and sensation eventually the heart rate sensation eventually the heart rate sensation eventually the heart rate typically increases if if it if there's typically increases if if it if there's typically increases if if it if there's a lot of fear but I would say from a lot of fear but I would say from a lot of fear but I would say from experience it actually drops for me experience it actually drops for me experience it actually drops for me quite a bit so if I'm coming in from quite a bit so if I'm coming in from quite a bit so if I'm coming in from workout my heartbeat could be around workout my heartbeat could be around workout my heartbeat could be around like 95 like 95 like 95 I get in it drops 20 to 30 beats almost
21:00I get in it drops 20 to 30 beats almost I get in it drops 20 to 30 beats almost immediately immediately immediately um there can be a little bit of an um there can be a little bit of an um there can be a little bit of an increase in blood increase in blood increase in blood pressure there can be this rapid shallow pressure there can be this rapid shallow pressure there can be this rapid shallow breathing which I think is why the Wim breathing which I think is why the Wim breathing which I think is why the Wim Hof breathing is this kind of Hof breathing is this kind of Hof breathing is this kind of like low and like or um you know they'll like low and like or um you know they'll like low and like or um you know they'll start fast and a lot of breathing and start fast and a lot of breathing and start fast and a lot of breathing and then they'll hold their breath when they then they'll hold their breath when they then they'll hold their breath when they get in there's different ways of doing get in there's different ways of doing get in there's different ways of doing it um but essentially it um but essentially it um but essentially this is a great time to do slow and like this is a great time to do slow and like this is a great time to do slow and like long breaths to practice that and that long breaths to practice that and that long breaths to practice that and that is a way like sometimes I'll just count is a way like sometimes I'll just count is a way like sometimes I'll just count my breaths the first 20 are the most my breaths the first 20 are the most my breaths the first 20 are the most painful and just slow long breaths and painful and just slow long breaths and painful and just slow long breaths and everything and you doesn't want to do everything and you doesn't want to do everything and you doesn't want to do that but that helps you regulate the the that but that helps you regulate the the that but that helps you regulate the the stress stress stress response response response um yeah so interestingly norp and Effron um yeah so interestingly norp and Effron um yeah so interestingly norp and Effron increases two to three fold and remains increases two to three fold and remains increases two to three fold and remains elevated for hours
22:00elevated for hours elevated for hours and we're going to talk more about this and we're going to talk more about this and we're going to talk more about this but I think that may be part of but I think that may be part of but I think that may be part of the the the health the health the mental the the the health the health the mental the the the health the health the mental health benefit right right um we think health benefit right right um we think health benefit right right um we think about like medications that increase the about like medications that increase the about like medications that increase the norepinephrine often have to do with norepinephrine often have to do with norepinephrine often have to do with Focus Focus Focus concentration concentration concentration um sometimes for depression as well um sometimes for depression as well um sometimes for depression as well serotonin norepinephrine reuptake serotonin norepinephrine reuptake serotonin norepinephrine reuptake Inhibitors right there's that Inhibitors right there's that Inhibitors right there's that norepinephrine reuptake increase norepinephrine reuptake increase norepinephrine reuptake increase now there is a slight difference we're now there is a slight difference we're now there is a slight difference we're measuring we're aren measuring blood measuring we're aren measuring blood measuring we're aren measuring blood levels of levels of levels of norepinephrine right with with our with norepinephrine right with with our with norepinephrine right with with our with our patients yeah we're not measuring our patients yeah we're not measuring our patients yeah we're not measuring the epinephrine in the brain or the epinephrine in the brain or the epinephrine in the brain or norepinephrine in the brain from norepinephrine in the brain from norepinephrine in the brain from snris I mean the snris are more specific snris I mean the snris are more specific snris I mean the snris are more specific to the brain as well because they're to the brain as well because they're to the brain as well because they're inhibiting the reuptake at the synapse inhibiting the reuptake at the synapse inhibiting the reuptake at the synapse and not causing like a dump of norrine and not causing like a dump of norrine and not causing like a dump of norrine from the adrenals like you see with the from the adrenals like you see with the from the adrenals like you see with the cold shock response or other stressors cold shock response or other stressors cold shock response or other stressors well we'll get more out of this cortisol well we'll get more out of this cortisol well we'll get more out of this cortisol increases but may um over time you may
23:00increases but may um over time you may increases but may um over time you may get more used to it so your cortisol may get more used to it so your cortisol may get more used to it so your cortisol may not not increase and um shivering increase and um shivering increase and um shivering occurs uh when your core body occurs uh when your core body occurs uh when your core body temperature drops and I would say it's temperature drops and I would say it's temperature drops and I would say it's pretty rare at this point for me to pretty rare at this point for me to pretty rare at this point for me to shiver at all when I'm in shiver at all when I'm in shiver at all when I'm in there but when I get someone new they're there but when I get someone new they're there but when I get someone new they're shivering within a couple minutes and shivering within a couple minutes and shivering within a couple minutes and it's it's very visible yeah I was sh in it's it's very visible yeah I was sh in it's it's very visible yeah I was sh in a lot when I started even like for a lot when I started even like for a lot when I started even like for minutes after like I got so cold and I'm minutes after like I got so cold and I'm minutes after like I got so cold and I'm someone who Shivers a lot too like I I someone who Shivers a lot too like I I someone who Shivers a lot too like I I did the the cold plunge um back when we did the the cold plunge um back when we did the the cold plunge um back when we when I got proposed or when I got when I got proposed or when I got when I got proposed or when I got engaged we went to a resort that had the engaged we went to a resort that had the engaged we went to a resort that had the the hot and cold and even in the cold I the hot and cold and even in the cold I the hot and cold and even in the cold I was shivering even after the sauna so if was shivering even after the sauna so if was shivering even after the sauna so if you're not used to it you're going to you're not used to it you're going to you're not used to it you're going to shiver a lot oh I had this friend over shiver a lot oh I had this friend over shiver a lot oh I had this friend over and we were slack and we were slack and we were slack lining and in between slack lining we lining and in between slack lining we lining and in between slack lining we going with the cold blend right and I
24:00going with the cold blend right and I going with the cold blend right and I didn't realize he was completely naive didn't realize he was completely naive didn't realize he was completely naive to to to it and um we we we ended up doing about it and um we we we ended up doing about it and um we we we ended up doing about 20 minutes because we do it was hot out 20 minutes because we do it was hot out 20 minutes because we do it was hot out so we do like hot you know slack lining so we do like hot you know slack lining so we do like hot you know slack lining for like 10 15 minutes get in the cold for like 10 15 minutes get in the cold for like 10 15 minutes get in the cold plune for like one minute copy repeat plune for like one minute copy repeat plune for like one minute copy repeat ended up hurting my foot my toe and it's ended up hurting my foot my toe and it's ended up hurting my foot my toe and it's still been hurting months later so I still been hurting months later so I still been hurting months later so I think I couldn't feel how um maybe the think I couldn't feel how um maybe the think I couldn't feel how um maybe the micro damage from the slock lining micro damage from the slock lining micro damage from the slock lining because the cold but that it kind of because the cold but that it kind of because the cold but that it kind of caught up to me caught up to me caught up to me so I I felt bad for him after I I so I I felt bad for him after I I so I I felt bad for him after I I realized he had never even done this realized he had never even done this realized he had never even done this before and I was like subjecting before and I was like subjecting before and I was like subjecting him his his uh his willingness to do it him his his uh his willingness to do it him his his uh his willingness to do it was always there so it was was always there so it was was always there so it was not torture forced torture would be not torture forced torture would be not torture forced torture would be awful and cold honestly like if if you awful and cold honestly like if if you awful and cold honestly like if if you didn't choose to do it like I could didn't choose to do it like I could didn't choose to do it like I could never do this to someone who wasn't never do this to someone who wasn't never do this to someone who wasn't wanting to do it like they would have to wanting to do it like they would have to wanting to do it like they would have to there has to be full like agreement that
25:00there has to be full like agreement that there has to be full like agreement that yes I want to try to do this right and yes I want to try to do this right and yes I want to try to do this right and we we'll kind of get into it but I think we we'll kind of get into it but I think we we'll kind of get into it but I think that might be part of the benefit is you that might be part of the benefit is you that might be part of the benefit is you want to do this and pushing yourself to want to do this and pushing yourself to want to do this and pushing yourself to do it yourself is probably where the do it yourself is probably where the do it yourself is probably where the benefit comes from I think that this is benefit comes from I think that this is benefit comes from I think that this is why it would never work to test animals why it would never work to test animals why it would never work to test animals in cold and to see how like their in cold and to see how like their in cold and to see how like their neurotransmitters or different things neurotransmitters or different things neurotransmitters or different things are increasing or because it's like that are increasing or because it's like that are increasing or because it's like that you're essentially torturing that animal you're essentially torturing that animal you're essentially torturing that animal even just touching the animal like even just touching the animal like even just touching the animal like handling animals like mice you see a handling animals like mice you see a handling animals like mice you see a really profound sympathetic response a really profound sympathetic response a really profound sympathetic response a stress response so yeah I don't think stress response so yeah I don't think stress response so yeah I don't think this really lends itself to studying in this really lends itself to studying in this really lends itself to studying in animals Cold Water Swimming there's a animals Cold Water Swimming there's a animals Cold Water Swimming there's a there's a book I read winter Swimming by there's a book I read winter Swimming by there's a book I read winter Swimming by Susanna soberg she's popularized this uh Susanna soberg she's popularized this uh Susanna soberg she's popularized this uh she she did some research on Brown fat she she did some research on Brown fat she she did some research on Brown fat we're talk about this any thoughts on we're talk about this any thoughts on we're talk about this any thoughts on this Liam yeah I just want to mention this Liam yeah I just want to mention this Liam yeah I just want to mention like the initial studies for C Water like the initial studies for C Water like the initial studies for C Water Swimming most of them are like
26:00Swimming most of them are like Swimming most of them are like observational studies of people in observational studies of people in observational studies of people in Denmark and that's where Dr soberg is Denmark and that's where Dr soberg is Denmark and that's where Dr soberg is from and um you know some these initial from and um you know some these initial from and um you know some these initial studies were promising like they showed studies were promising like they showed studies were promising like they showed some improvements in people's metabolism some improvements in people's metabolism some improvements in people's metabolism like triglycerides uh like triglycerides uh like triglycerides uh glucose uh even cholesterol uh their glucose uh even cholesterol uh their glucose uh even cholesterol uh their quality of life well-being their mood quality of life well-being their mood quality of life well-being their mood some anxiety and depressive symptoms uh some anxiety and depressive symptoms uh some anxiety and depressive symptoms uh but again most of these studies were but again most of these studies were but again most of these studies were just observational seeing someone how just observational seeing someone how just observational seeing someone how they changed from October into April and they changed from October into April and they changed from October into April and obviously there's a lot of confounding obviously there's a lot of confounding obviously there's a lot of confounding factors that go into that like the the factors that go into that like the the factors that go into that like the the effects of exercise the effects of effects of exercise the effects of effects of exercise the effects of socialization um and maybe even healthy socialization um and maybe even healthy socialization um and maybe even healthy user bias like if someone starts to do a user bias like if someone starts to do a user bias like if someone starts to do a practice that they perceive as healthy practice that they perceive as healthy practice that they perceive as healthy then they also change their other then they also change their other then they also change their other behaviors too U then there's also the behaviors too U then there's also the behaviors too U then there's also the effect of uh being in nature because effect of uh being in nature because effect of uh being in nature because that's where most of the studies were that's where most of the studies were that's where most of the studies were conducted out into the sea and there is conducted out into the sea and there is conducted out into the sea and there is uh some mental health benefits to being uh some mental health benefits to being uh some mental health benefits to being a nature as well so I think a lot of the
27:00a nature as well so I think a lot of the a nature as well so I think a lot of the book does draw on these initial studies book does draw on these initial studies book does draw on these initial studies and um I think what's important is that and um I think what's important is that and um I think what's important is that we look at the actual effect of how most we look at the actual effect of how most we look at the actual effect of how most people use cold plunges today and that's people use cold plunges today and that's people use cold plunges today and that's they're doing it passively not in not so they're doing it passively not in not so they're doing it passively not in not so much in nature but it's more so just a much in nature but it's more so just a much in nature but it's more so just a the physiological response to cold the physiological response to cold the physiological response to cold itself that might be um that we can look itself that might be um that we can look itself that might be um that we can look at a little bit easier with some of at a little bit easier with some of at a little bit easier with some of these studies so I think like with the these studies so I think like with the these studies so I think like with the the Cold Water swimming studies uh the Cold Water swimming studies uh the Cold Water swimming studies uh there's just too many confounders to there's just too many confounders to there's just too many confounders to make any really solid claims make any really solid claims make any really solid claims about it's like there's a lot of about it's like there's a lot of about it's like there's a lot of positive things that they show but is it positive things that they show but is it positive things that they show but is it the swimming yeah is it the group the swimming yeah is it the group the swimming yeah is it the group socialization it yes and right it's socialization it yes and right it's socialization it yes and right it's probably all the above um so it's hard probably all the above um so it's hard probably all the above um so it's hard to isolate to isolate to isolate it it um also not everywhere has the capacity um also not everywhere has the capacity um also not everywhere has the capacity to have the cold to have the cold to have the cold couple things I would mention if you're couple things I would mention if you're couple things I would mention if you're listening to this is don't do this alone
28:00listening to this is don't do this alone listening to this is don't do this alone you know yeah um it's not a good idea to you know yeah um it's not a good idea to you know yeah um it's not a good idea to go Cold Water swimming alone you want to go Cold Water swimming alone you want to go Cold Water swimming alone you want to go with someone who's experienced who go with someone who's experienced who go with someone who's experienced who can rescue you if you have that shock can rescue you if you have that shock can rescue you if you have that shock response when you get in response when you get in response when you get in cold uh you may want to easier easier cold uh you may want to easier easier cold uh you may want to easier easier way into this way into this way into this experience um so there's my experience um so there's my experience um so there's my disclaimer okay shall we talk about this disclaimer okay shall we talk about this disclaimer okay shall we talk about this uh Kelly and bird 2020 21 improved mood uh Kelly and bird 2020 21 improved mood uh Kelly and bird 2020 21 improved mood following a single immersion in cold following a single immersion in cold following a single immersion in cold water yeah so this study they looked at water yeah so this study they looked at water yeah so this study they looked at a group of participants 42 of them this a group of participants 42 of them this a group of participants 42 of them this one actually took place in the sea in one actually took place in the sea in one actually took place in the sea in the in the UK in uh November so the the in the UK in uh November so the the in the UK in uh November so the water temperature is about 56 degrees water temperature is about 56 degrees water temperature is about 56 degrees Fahrenheit and of the participants who Fahrenheit and of the participants who Fahrenheit and of the participants who went in about half the group they went went in about half the group they went went in about half the group they went in the cold water and they saw in the cold water and they saw in the cold water and they saw improvements in their mood U marked by improvements in their mood U marked by improvements in their mood U marked by increased Vigor increased esteem uh increased Vigor increased esteem uh increased Vigor increased esteem uh decreased tension decreased tension decreased tension decreased anger decreased depression
29:00decreased anger decreased depression decreased anger decreased depression decreased fatigue uh whereas a control decreased fatigue uh whereas a control decreased fatigue uh whereas a control group they actually increased in group they actually increased in group they actually increased in depression by one point so I thought depression by one point so I thought depression by one point so I thought that was kind of funny but um yeah so that was kind of funny but um yeah so that was kind of funny but um yeah so they saw some positive moods this is 20 they saw some positive moods this is 20 they saw some positive moods this is 20 minutes it's 56 so it's not very cold 56 minutes it's 56 so it's not very cold 56 minutes it's 56 so it's not very cold 56 for me in terms of what I think 20 for me in terms of what I think 20 for me in terms of what I think 20 minutes is long though and also the minutes is long though and also the minutes is long though and also the maximum score for these subscales range maximum score for these subscales range maximum score for these subscales range from 16 to from 16 to from 16 to 32 so a two-point decrease on a 32o 32 so a two-point decrease on a 32o 32 so a two-point decrease on a 32o scale is not scale is not scale is not huge it's not incredibly exciting this huge it's not incredibly exciting this huge it's not incredibly exciting this is a very easy study to do because it's is a very easy study to do because it's is a very easy study to do because it's like you have this experience you rate like you have this experience you rate like you have this experience you rate them before and after boom you have your them before and after boom you have your them before and after boom you have your data right right it's a good preliminary data right right it's a good preliminary data right right it's a good preliminary study I think this study says look these study I think this study says look these study I think this study says look these people aren't gonna no one died in this people aren't gonna no one died in this people aren't gonna no one died in this study okay they were able to get people study okay they were able to get people study okay they were able to get people to stand in water for 20 minutes in this to stand in water for 20 minutes in this to stand in water for 20 minutes in this study right it was like a field trip to study right it was like a field trip to study right it was like a field trip to the lake or to the Sea and then everyone the lake or to the Sea and then everyone the lake or to the Sea and then everyone jumped in and they saw it happen Okay
30:00jumped in and they saw it happen Okay jumped in and they saw it happen Okay let's go on to the next one yeno Slovak let's go on to the next one yeno Slovak let's go on to the next one yeno Slovak at all 2023 shortterm head out of whole at all 2023 shortterm head out of whole at all 2023 shortterm head out of whole body cold water immersion facilitates body cold water immersion facilitates body cold water immersion facilitates positive affect and increases positive affect and increases positive affect and increases interaction between large scale brain interaction between large scale brain interaction between large scale brain networks yeah this study also used networks yeah this study also used networks yeah this study also used somewhat water warmer water temperatures somewhat water warmer water temperatures somewhat water warmer water temperatures they used 68 degrees for 5 minutes and they used 68 degrees for 5 minutes and they used 68 degrees for 5 minutes and there were 33 participants who did this there were 33 participants who did this there were 33 participants who did this and they observed immediate improvements and they observed immediate improvements and they observed immediate improvements in positive AFF effect and also in positive AFF effect and also in positive AFF effect and also decreases in negative a effect according decreases in negative a effect according decreases in negative a effect according to the pan as scale and this was about to the pan as scale and this was about to the pan as scale and this was about Five Points each so again not too much Five Points each so again not too much Five Points each so again not too much of a difference um for this scale and of a difference um for this scale and of a difference um for this scale and they also correlated some of these they also correlated some of these they also correlated some of these changes with changes in brain activity changes with changes in brain activity changes with changes in brain activity and fmri uh specifically coupling of the and fmri uh specifically coupling of the and fmri uh specifically coupling of the medal pre medial prefrontal cortex with medal pre medial prefrontal cortex with medal pre medial prefrontal cortex with the anterior insula and the dorsal the anterior insula and the dorsal the anterior insula and the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex decreases lateral prefrontal cortex decreases lateral prefrontal cortex decreases coupling with the Met prefrontal cortex coupling with the Met prefrontal cortex coupling with the Met prefrontal cortex and the anterior singular cortex so to
31:00and the anterior singular cortex so to and the anterior singular cortex so to me I think like these brain Imaging me I think like these brain Imaging me I think like these brain Imaging findings tend to be a little bit findings tend to be a little bit findings tend to be a little bit non-specific like of course putting non-specific like of course putting non-specific like of course putting yourself into like a shock experience is yourself into like a shock experience is yourself into like a shock experience is going to change brain activity but I going to change brain activity but I going to change brain activity but I think the specificity of those changes I think the specificity of those changes I think the specificity of those changes I mean if you put another study uh and if mean if you put another study uh and if mean if you put another study uh and if you do another study similar to this you do another study similar to this you do another study similar to this you're probably going to see like you're probably going to see like you're probably going to see like different brain changes and then you can different brain changes and then you can different brain changes and then you can of course you can correlate that with of course you can correlate that with of course you can correlate that with the changes in mood so I I'm not sure the changes in mood so I I'm not sure the changes in mood so I I'm not sure how much to weigh into these brain how much to weigh into these brain how much to weigh into these brain changes I actually wrote the author on changes I actually wrote the author on changes I actually wrote the author on this and asked some this and asked some this and asked some questions um and she said the questions um and she said the questions um and she said the overarching finding of the study is that overarching finding of the study is that overarching finding of the study is that a f minute whole body cold water a f minute whole body cold water a f minute whole body cold water emersion changes functional connectivity emersion changes functional connectivity emersion changes functional connectivity in the brain these changes are in the brain these changes are in the brain these changes are associated with changes in an emotional associated with changes in an emotional associated with changes in an emotional state as follows focal strong state as follows focal strong state as follows focal strong connectivity between frontal and connectivity between frontal and connectivity between frontal and parietal parts of the default mode parietal parts of the default mode parietal parts of the default mode Network
32:00Network Network mpfc and LP salance Network especially mpfc and LP salance Network especially mpfc and LP salance Network especially interior insula which contributes to interior insula which contributes to interior insula which contributes to proceptive feeling attentional networks proceptive feeling attentional networks proceptive feeling attentional networks as an indicator of alertness and as an indicator of alertness and as an indicator of alertness and posterior part of the executive Network posterior part of the executive Network posterior part of the executive Network which is controlling which is controlling which is controlling decision-making increasing this focal decision-making increasing this focal decision-making increasing this focal connectivity may explain the positive connectivity may explain the positive connectivity may explain the positive effect of effect of effect of CWI self-reported positive effect had a CWI self-reported positive effect had a CWI self-reported positive effect had a strong correlation with increasing this strong correlation with increasing this strong correlation with increasing this focal focal focal connectivity distributed weak connectivity distributed weak connectivity distributed weak connectivity between multiple brain connectivity between multiple brain connectivity between multiple brain networks was also seen self-reported networks was also seen self-reported networks was also seen self-reported reduction in negative affect was reduction in negative affect was reduction in negative affect was associated with the distributed again associated with the distributed again associated with the distributed again equals weak pattern of equals weak pattern of equals weak pattern of neuroactivity why is this important we neuroactivity why is this important we neuroactivity why is this important we do not want to see focal connections do not want to see focal connections do not want to see focal connections associated with negative a effects associated with negative a effects associated with negative a effects typically this would mean increasing in typically this would mean increasing in typically this would mean increasing in symptom sever it thank you all for
33:00symptom sever it thank you all for symptom sever it thank you all for responding to me and giving this kind of responding to me and giving this kind of responding to me and giving this kind of thoughtfulness thoughtful reply thoughtfulness thoughtful reply thoughtfulness thoughtful reply here so we'll include this in the here so we'll include this in the here so we'll include this in the handout all right let's go to read at handout all right let's go to read at handout all right let's go to read at all all all 2023 cardiovascular and mood responses 2023 cardiovascular and mood responses 2023 cardiovascular and mood responses to an acute bout of cold immersion so to an acute bout of cold immersion so to an acute bout of cold immersion so this is 16 adults immersed for 15 this is 16 adults immersed for 15 this is 16 adults immersed for 15 minutes and 50 degrees Fahrenheit minutes and 50 degrees Fahrenheit minutes and 50 degrees Fahrenheit so more legit now that's that's getting so more legit now that's that's getting so more legit now that's that's getting there that's legit water up to the there that's legit water up to the there that's legit water up to the sternum I would have liked to seen them sternum I would have liked to seen them sternum I would have liked to seen them cover their cover their cover their jugular you know the neck because of all jugular you know the neck because of all jugular you know the neck because of all the the the the the the um the Vegas nerve the Vegas nerve and um the Vegas nerve the Vegas nerve and um the Vegas nerve the Vegas nerve and stuff stuff stuff yeah so assessments were connected yeah so assessments were connected yeah so assessments were connected pre-immersion during immersion which is pre-immersion during immersion which is pre-immersion during immersion which is about one minute and 15 minute time about one minute and 15 minute time about one minute and 15 minute time points and 30 minutes post immersion and points and 30 minutes post immersion and points and 30 minutes post immersion and 180 minutes post 180 minutes post 180 minutes post immersion so tell me what they found immersion so tell me what they found immersion so tell me what they found they found this was using the same scale
34:00they found this was using the same scale they found this was using the same scale as a previous study that negative a as a previous study that negative a as a previous study that negative a decreased but only after 180 minutes decreased but only after 180 minutes decreased but only after 180 minutes post immersion um and it didn't change post immersion um and it didn't change post immersion um and it didn't change immediately during immersion uh and then immediately during immersion uh and then immediately during immersion uh and then also positive positive F did not change also positive positive F did not change also positive positive F did not change um and then looking at the this box plot um and then looking at the this box plot um and then looking at the this box plot of uh the charts with each individual uh of uh the charts with each individual uh of uh the charts with each individual uh data point it looks like there's one data point it looks like there's one data point it looks like there's one individual who had like a really strong individual who had like a really strong individual who had like a really strong response they had a high amount of response they had a high amount of response they had a high amount of negative effect prior to the immersion negative effect prior to the immersion negative effect prior to the immersion and then after the immersion 1008 and then after the immersion 1008 and then after the immersion 1008 minutes later they had a reduction of minutes later they had a reduction of minutes later they had a reduction of that negative effect I think a lot of that negative effect I think a lot of that negative effect I think a lot of that drove some of these this that drove some of these this that drove some of these this statistically significant finding so I'm statistically significant finding so I'm statistically significant finding so I'm not really too sure how strong this not really too sure how strong this not really too sure how strong this effect is for negative a effect is for negative a effect is for negative a effect once again this is a a one-time effect once again this is a a one-time effect once again this is a a one-time event event event right and I think it's possible that right and I think it's possible that right and I think it's possible that this is this is like from my
35:00this is this is like from my this is this is like from my experience it may not be the first experience it may not be the first experience it may not be the first immersion that you get the benefit for immersion that you get the benefit for immersion that you get the benefit for depression yeah um it it may take depression yeah um it it may take depression yeah um it it may take repeated and repeated and repeated and ongoing immersive ongoing immersive ongoing immersive experiences yeah I'm not sure how how experiences yeah I'm not sure how how experiences yeah I'm not sure how how willing this participant was if they had willing this participant was if they had willing this participant was if they had this much negative effect prior to the this much negative effect prior to the this much negative effect prior to the exposure they're probably a little bit exposure they're probably a little bit exposure they're probably a little bit nervous about it they might have been nervous about it they might have been nervous about it they might have been their first their first their first time things are trending in the right time things are trending in the right time things are trending in the right direction right direction right direction right no no changes in beta no no changes in beta no no changes in beta endorphin were endorphin were endorphin were observed yeah then cortisol was also not observed yeah then cortisol was also not observed yeah then cortisol was also not changed for the first 30 minutes so changed for the first 30 minutes so changed for the first 30 minutes so prior to immersion then uh 30 or 15 prior to immersion then uh 30 or 15 prior to immersion then uh 30 or 15 minutes after the immersion and then it minutes after the immersion and then it minutes after the immersion and then it actually decreased by actually decreased by actually decreased by 47% after 180 minutes I think that's 47% after 180 minutes I think that's 47% after 180 minutes I think that's that's really impressive that's a big that's really impressive that's a big that's really impressive that's a big decrease 180 minutes after now that decrease 180 minutes after now that decrease 180 minutes after now that makes me wonder even before doing doing makes me wonder even before doing doing makes me wonder even before doing doing the experience did they have a little
36:00the experience did they have a little the experience did they have a little bit elevated cortisol because they were bit elevated cortisol because they were bit elevated cortisol because they were stressed out about going to the water stressed out about going to the water stressed out about going to the water for the first time yeah exactly I think for the first time yeah exactly I think for the first time yeah exactly I think there's probably that's probably part of there's probably that's probably part of there's probably that's probably part of the effect that explains it yeah okay the effect that explains it yeah okay the effect that explains it yeah okay the catac colomine the catac colomine the catac colomine hypothesis so walk me through this yeah hypothesis so walk me through this yeah hypothesis so walk me through this yeah so this is really in my mind some of the so this is really in my mind some of the so this is really in my mind some of the most robust findings that you see from most robust findings that you see from most robust findings that you see from these studies looking at the these studies looking at the these studies looking at the physiological changes um and know that physiological changes um and know that physiological changes um and know that catacol means are associated with moon catacol means are associated with moon catacol means are associated with moon so catacol means being dopamine nephrine so catacol means being dopamine nephrine so catacol means being dopamine nephrine epinephrine and the first study that epinephrine and the first study that epinephrine and the first study that really demonstrated this to a pretty really demonstrated this to a pretty really demonstrated this to a pretty profound extent was by camic at all in profound extent was by camic at all in profound extent was by camic at all in 2000 in a study titled human 2000 in a study titled human 2000 in a study titled human physiological responses to immersion physiological responses to immersion physiological responses to immersion into water of different temperatures so into water of different temperatures so into water of different temperatures so in this study they had 10 male subjects in this study they had 10 male subjects in this study they had 10 male subjects sit in a chair and different sit in a chair and different sit in a chair and different temperatures of water for one hour and temperatures of water for one hour and temperatures of water for one hour and that sounds pretty incredible but the that sounds pretty incredible but the that sounds pretty incredible but the temperature again was uh about 59° F and
37:00temperature again was uh about 59° F and temperature again was uh about 59° F and then there was another condition 68° then there was another condition 68° then there was another condition 68° fenhe and then 90° fenhe so almost like fenhe and then 90° fenhe so almost like fenhe and then 90° fenhe so almost like a hot tub and then they measured the a hot tub and then they measured the a hot tub and then they measured the different um catacol Amun amounts and different um catacol Amun amounts and different um catacol Amun amounts and cortisol and they found that the coldest cortisol and they found that the coldest cortisol and they found that the coldest water temperature it actually led to water temperature it actually led to water temperature it actually led to hypothermia to some extent they dropped hypothermia to some extent they dropped hypothermia to some extent they dropped 37 degrees Celsius to 35.6 De C and this 37 degrees Celsius to 35.6 De C and this 37 degrees Celsius to 35.6 De C and this increased metabolic rate led to an increased metabolic rate led to an increased metabolic rate led to an increased heart rate rate and uh blood increased heart rate rate and uh blood increased heart rate rate and uh blood pressure changes so an activation of the pressure changes so an activation of the pressure changes so an activation of the sympathetic nervous system and they sympathetic nervous system and they sympathetic nervous system and they observe plasma neur nephrine and observe plasma neur nephrine and observe plasma neur nephrine and dopamine they both increase five-fold uh dopamine they both increase five-fold uh dopamine they both increase five-fold uh epinephrine remain unchanged and then epinephrine remain unchanged and then epinephrine remain unchanged and then they also observed plasma cortisol they also observed plasma cortisol they also observed plasma cortisol decreases in each session so even even decreases in each session so even even decreases in each session so even even in the control sessions I think this is in the control sessions I think this is in the control sessions I think this is kind of tying back into the previous kind of tying back into the previous kind of tying back into the previous study how cortisol decreased cortisols study how cortisol decreased cortisols study how cortisol decreased cortisols seem to be a little bit elevated uh in seem to be a little bit elevated uh in seem to be a little bit elevated uh in all these different trials and then they all these different trials and then they all these different trials and then they dropped within 120 minutes and it's
38:00dropped within 120 minutes and it's dropped within 120 minutes and it's highest prior to the coldest condition highest prior to the coldest condition highest prior to the coldest condition and this might be related to the and this might be related to the and this might be related to the psychological distress like thinking oh psychological distress like thinking oh psychological distress like thinking oh I'm going to be in the the cold water I'm going to be in the the cold water I'm going to be in the the cold water for an hour that's like that's pretty for an hour that's like that's pretty for an hour that's like that's pretty intense and you can see that this group intense and you can see that this group intense and you can see that this group uh this group had the highest cortisol uh this group had the highest cortisol uh this group had the highest cortisol levels prior to this exposure so it levels prior to this exposure so it levels prior to this exposure so it might be a psychological based uh might be a psychological based uh might be a psychological based uh increase in cortisol and then later increase in cortisol and then later increase in cortisol and then later normalize as they calm normalize as they calm normalize as they calm down yeah I I think what is most down yeah I I think what is most down yeah I I think what is most interesting to me here is that the noran interesting to me here is that the noran interesting to me here is that the noran and dopamine increase fivefold now this and dopamine increase fivefold now this and dopamine increase fivefold now this is peripheral it's not like we're is peripheral it's not like we're is peripheral it's not like we're autopsy people's brains you know like autopsy people's brains you know like autopsy people's brains you know like yeah so this is peripheral Norine yeah so this is peripheral Norine yeah so this is peripheral Norine peripheral peripheral peripheral dopamine um yeah you know we have a lot dopamine um yeah you know we have a lot dopamine um yeah you know we have a lot of meds that increase Orbin and dopamine of meds that increase Orbin and dopamine of meds that increase Orbin and dopamine for Focus for depression for for Focus for depression for for Focus for depression for anxiety and so could this be anxiety and so could this be anxiety and so could this be impactful
39:00impactful impactful um I think it does help me focus better um I think it does help me focus better um I think it does help me focus better I think it does increase my ability to I think it does increase my ability to I think it does increase my ability to like engage and zoom in you like engage and zoom in you like engage and zoom in you know um I had one patient know um I had one patient know um I had one patient who would take who would take who would take some uh amphetamine salt in the some uh amphetamine salt in the some uh amphetamine salt in the morning and then instead of taking one morning and then instead of taking one morning and then instead of taking one in the afternoon because it would give in the afternoon because it would give in the afternoon because it would give him him him insomnia I convinced him to do a c insomnia I convinced him to do a c insomnia I convinced him to do a c plunge so he started C plunging around 1 plunge so he started C plunging around 1 plunge so he started C plunging around 1 p.m. and he said that's helped him p.m. and he said that's helped him p.m. and he said that's helped him continue to computer program and continue to computer program and continue to computer program and study that that made all the difference study that that made all the difference study that that made all the difference so there's one you so there's one you so there's one you know it's a case report right know it's a case report right know it's a case report right there there there um yeah so meanwhile a more recent study um yeah so meanwhile a more recent study um yeah so meanwhile a more recent study amont at all 2021 showed that amont at all 2021 showed that amont at all 2021 showed that norepinephrine epinephrine and cortisol norepinephrine epinephrine and cortisol norepinephrine epinephrine and cortisol can increase can increase can increase with shorter coal plunge
40:00with shorter coal plunge with shorter coal plunge sessions in this study 12 young men sat sessions in this study 12 young men sat sessions in this study 12 young men sat in 59 degrees Fahrenheit water 14 in 59 degrees Fahrenheit water 14 in 59 degrees Fahrenheit water 14 Celsius for 10 Celsius for 10 Celsius for 10 minutes cortisol nephrine epinephrine minutes cortisol nephrine epinephrine minutes cortisol nephrine epinephrine were each significantly increased and were each significantly increased and were each significantly increased and remained elevated for several hours remained elevated for several hours remained elevated for several hours after immersion this is not that cold after immersion this is not that cold after immersion this is not that cold I'm not impressed I I want studies with I'm not impressed I I want studies with I'm not impressed I I want studies with 45 degrees Fahrenheit okay yeah so I 45 degrees Fahrenheit okay yeah so I 45 degrees Fahrenheit okay yeah so I thought like the most interesting thing thought like the most interesting thing thought like the most interesting thing about this study was that the norrine about this study was that the norrine about this study was that the norrine epine and cortisol remained elevated and epine and cortisol remained elevated and epine and cortisol remained elevated and you this effect is like most strong like you this effect is like most strong like you this effect is like most strong like in uh norrine I put some charts here in uh norrine I put some charts here in uh norrine I put some charts here from the study and you can see it's far from the study and you can see it's far from the study and you can see it's far and above the control group and it and above the control group and it and above the control group and it remains elevated for about two hours at remains elevated for about two hours at remains elevated for about two hours at least let's talk about this Le least let's talk about this Le least let's talk about this Le boto at all 2008 I'm sure I'm butchering boto at all 2008 I'm sure I'm butchering boto at all 2008 I'm sure I'm butchering that name I apologize investigated the that name I apologize investigated the that name I apologize investigated the effect of repeated cold exposure over 12
41:00effect of repeated cold exposure over 12 effect of repeated cold exposure over 12 weeks in 20 female participants weeks in 20 female participants weeks in 20 female participants comparing three times per week Cold comparing three times per week Cold comparing three times per week Cold Water swimming this was uh 0 to two Water swimming this was uh 0 to two Water swimming this was uh 0 to two degrees Celsius so this is the cold degrees Celsius so this is the cold degrees Celsius so this is the cold temperature now this is about temperature now this is about temperature now this is about freezing like 32 degrees Fahrenheit like freezing like 32 degrees Fahrenheit like freezing like 32 degrees Fahrenheit like 36 okay for 20 seconds and cryotherapy 36 okay for 20 seconds and cryotherapy 36 okay for 20 seconds and cryotherapy for 2 minutes cryotherapy was ne10 celi for 2 minutes cryotherapy was ne10 celi for 2 minutes cryotherapy was ne10 celi the study found that plasma norrine the study found that plasma norrine the study found that plasma norrine increased two to threefold acutely for increased two to threefold acutely for increased two to threefold acutely for each session for the above interventions each session for the above interventions each session for the above interventions and this effect persisted throughout the and this effect persisted throughout the and this effect persisted throughout the 12-week period yeah so even after the 12-week period yeah so even after the 12-week period yeah so even after the the participants became habituated to the participants became habituated to the participants became habituated to the cold water or the cryotherapy they the cold water or the cryotherapy they the cold water or the cryotherapy they still had this increase in nephrine still had this increase in nephrine still had this increase in nephrine after each of the sessions and the same after each of the sessions and the same after each of the sessions and the same cannot be said about cortisol where cannot be said about cortisol where cannot be said about cortisol where cortisol initially peaked during the cortisol initially peaked during the cortisol initially peaked during the first two weeks uh on the day days that first two weeks uh on the day days that first two weeks uh on the day days that they expected to do the cold plune
42:00they expected to do the cold plune they expected to do the cold plune compared to the control days uh these compared to the control days uh these compared to the control days uh these were elevated only for the first two were elevated only for the first two were elevated only for the first two weeks then after that uh what I think weeks then after that uh what I think weeks then after that uh what I think like you can probably explain either due like you can probably explain either due like you can probably explain either due to psychological mechanisms or to psychological mechanisms or to psychological mechanisms or physiological that they became habitu to physiological that they became habitu to physiological that they became habitu to the cold and then they stopped having the cold and then they stopped having the cold and then they stopped having this cortisol response interestingly in this cortisol response interestingly in this cortisol response interestingly in this study plasma like i1 beta I 6 tnf this study plasma like i1 beta I 6 tnf this study plasma like i1 beta I 6 tnf Alpha did not show any change after cold Alpha did not show any change after cold Alpha did not show any change after cold exposure so these are other inflammatory exposure so these are other inflammatory exposure so these are other inflammatory markers right and one one of the biggest markers right and one one of the biggest markers right and one one of the biggest claims about cold exposure is that it claims about cold exposure is that it claims about cold exposure is that it helps um the immune system and it can helps um the immune system and it can helps um the immune system and it can reduce inflammation and these are some reduce inflammation and these are some reduce inflammation and these are some of the main inflammatory markers that of the main inflammatory markers that of the main inflammatory markers that are used in most studies and this study are used in most studies and this study are used in most studies and this study didn't find any effect which it's it's didn't find any effect which it's it's didn't find any effect which it's it's not like I would want this to increase not like I would want this to increase not like I would want this to increase those you know drugs that increase tnf those you know drugs that increase tnf those you know drugs that increase tnf Alpha tend to not be very good for Alpha tend to not be very good for Alpha tend to not be very good for mental health right so yeah tell me mental health right so yeah tell me mental health right so yeah tell me about the next study so this next study about the next study so this next study about the next study so this next study was one of the first rcts U they they
43:00was one of the first rcts U they they was one of the first rcts U they they actually did one study prior to this uh actually did one study prior to this uh actually did one study prior to this uh with non-active controls and they saw a with non-active controls and they saw a with non-active controls and they saw a benefit but this was by rusa at all in benefit but this was by rusa at all in benefit but this was by rusa at all in 2020 so they looked at uh 2020 so they looked at uh 2020 so they looked at uh 92 patients with u mild to moderate 92 patients with u mild to moderate 92 patients with u mild to moderate depression 17 points on average in the depression 17 points on average in the depression 17 points on average in the hamd and 21 to 24 in the BDI and they hamd and 21 to 24 in the BDI and they hamd and 21 to 24 in the BDI and they they were receiving outpatient therapy they were receiving outpatient therapy they were receiving outpatient therapy so the participants who randomly so the participants who randomly so the participants who randomly allocated to the cryogenic temperatures allocated to the cryogenic temperatures allocated to the cryogenic temperatures which was a 110° c which I think is like which was a 110° c which I think is like which was a 110° c which I think is like 160 something Fahrenheit and 160 something Fahrenheit and 160 something Fahrenheit and 135 um so they exposed to either this or 135 um so they exposed to either this or 135 um so they exposed to either this or to non-cryogenic temperatures in the to non-cryogenic temperatures in the to non-cryogenic temperatures in the cryotherapy machine so this was an cryotherapy machine so this was an cryotherapy machine so this was an active control and they did this from uh active control and they did this from uh active control and they did this from uh for 10 for two weeks and they did 10 for 10 for two weeks and they did 10 for 10 for two weeks and they did 10 total sessions so uh for about three total sessions so uh for about three total sessions so uh for about three minutes each and they found that both minutes each and they found that both minutes each and they found that both groups improved on the depressive groups improved on the depressive groups improved on the depressive symptoms of hamd and BDI and after one
44:00symptoms of hamd and BDI and after one symptoms of hamd and BDI and after one week of the treatment the cryotherapy week of the treatment the cryotherapy week of the treatment the cryotherapy group scored on average Five Points group scored on average Five Points group scored on average Five Points lower on the BDI compared to the control lower on the BDI compared to the control lower on the BDI compared to the control group but the next week uh both of the group but the next week uh both of the group but the next week uh both of the groups uh essentially caught up to each groups uh essentially caught up to each groups uh essentially caught up to each other and there's no difference at twoe other and there's no difference at twoe other and there's no difference at twoe followup but there were some elements or followup but there were some elements or followup but there were some elements or some uh subscales of the BDI that did some uh subscales of the BDI that did some uh subscales of the BDI that did improve more in the cryotherapy group uh improve more in the cryotherapy group uh improve more in the cryotherapy group uh such as sadness loss of pleasure such as sadness loss of pleasure such as sadness loss of pleasure self-criticalness loss of Interest inde self-criticalness loss of Interest inde self-criticalness loss of Interest inde decisiveness and lower scores on decisiveness and lower scores on decisiveness and lower scores on cognitive affc Dimension and the sematic cognitive affc Dimension and the sematic cognitive affc Dimension and the sematic dimension too and then they had higher dimension too and then they had higher dimension too and then they had higher improvements in quality of life and improvements in quality of life and improvements in quality of life and symptoms related to pain sleep and symptoms related to pain sleep and symptoms related to pain sleep and self-acceptance but again for this St self-acceptance but again for this St self-acceptance but again for this St there's also no changes in systemic there's also no changes in systemic there's also no changes in systemic inflammatory markers like CRP I 6 um I inflammatory markers like CRP I 6 um I inflammatory markers like CRP I 6 um I 10 and oxidative stress like Nitric oide 10 and oxidative stress like Nitric oide 10 and oxidative stress like Nitric oide so how much of a decrease in the BDI so so how much of a decrease in the BDI so so how much of a decrease in the BDI so the first week they went from 23 on the first week they went from 23 on the first week they went from 23 on average in the experimental group The
45:00average in the experimental group The average in the experimental group The Cry Therapy Group from 23 to Cry Therapy Group from 23 to Cry Therapy Group from 23 to 9.4 and then the next time point the 9.4 and then the next time point the 9.4 and then the next time point the second week they actually went back up second week they actually went back up second week they actually went back up to 15 and then after two week follow up to 15 and then after two week follow up to 15 and then after two week follow up they're at 13 see that's a huge initial they're at 13 see that's a huge initial they're at 13 see that's a huge initial decrease that's like that's like really decrease that's like that's like really decrease that's like that's like really significant yeah which which makes you significant yeah which which makes you significant yeah which which makes you think like okay maybe there's a role in think like okay maybe there's a role in think like okay maybe there's a role in like just snapping someone out of the like just snapping someone out of the like just snapping someone out of the funk maybe it's you're going to need funk maybe it's you're going to need funk maybe it's you're going to need therapy you're going to need other therapy you're going to need other therapy you're going to need other treatments but to get someone from a 21 treatments but to get someone from a 21 treatments but to get someone from a 21 to a to a to a 9.4 that quickly is is pretty 9.4 that quickly is is pretty 9.4 that quickly is is pretty significant yeah that's actually huge I significant yeah that's actually huge I significant yeah that's actually huge I had a patient who's around 70 had a patient who's around 70 had a patient who's around 70 male and he said he's been depressed male and he said he's been depressed male and he said he's been depressed he's not talking as much he's normally he's not talking as much he's normally he's not talking as much he's normally very very very social and he um and we decided to do social and he um and we decided to do social and he um and we decided to do the uh the sauna Co plunge he didn't the uh the sauna Co plunge he didn't the uh the sauna Co plunge he didn't want and therapy he exercise he's want and therapy he exercise he's want and therapy he exercise he's already already already exercising he had an immediate change
46:00exercising he had an immediate change exercising he had an immediate change was like day one he was like whoa I feel was like day one he was like whoa I feel was like day one he was like whoa I feel totally different my wife notices it totally different my wife notices it totally different my wife notices it different week one he comes back and he different week one he comes back and he different week one he comes back and he was like a totally different person you was like a totally different person you was like a totally different person you know and he he's he was what I would know and he he's he was what I would know and he he's he was what I would call like a total responder I mean no call like a total responder I mean no call like a total responder I mean no medication I mean maybe you could say it medication I mean maybe you could say it medication I mean maybe you could say it was my one hour of therapy I did as was my one hour of therapy I did as was my one hour of therapy I did as well but um no I think I think it was a well but um no I think I think it was a well but um no I think I think it was a maybe a maybe a maybe a combination but yeah first first week he combination but yeah first first week he combination but yeah first first week he was doing it every day he was going in was doing it every day he was going in was doing it every day he was going in the C plunge for like one minute heat the C plunge for like one minute heat the C plunge for like one minute heat for two to three minutes go back to the for two to three minutes go back to the for two to three minutes go back to the CCH one minute I mean there an older CCH one minute I mean there an older CCH one minute I mean there an older guy and um so yeah that's a big that's a guy and um so yeah that's a big that's a guy and um so yeah that's a big that's a big initial drop though yeah I think it big initial drop though yeah I think it big initial drop though yeah I think it really does have an effect on really really does have an effect on really really does have an effect on really pulling someone out of a mental state pulling someone out of a mental state pulling someone out of a mental state that they're previously in kind of like that they're previously in kind of like that they're previously in kind of like exercise like if I if I don't exercise exercise like if I if I don't exercise exercise like if I if I don't exercise in a day then feel a little bit jittery in a day then feel a little bit jittery in a day then feel a little bit jittery and I'm sure like many people feel that
47:00and I'm sure like many people feel that and I'm sure like many people feel that way too and um you know I think once you way too and um you know I think once you way too and um you know I think once you start to do something like this if it start to do something like this if it start to do something like this if it changes your mental state then even if changes your mental state then even if changes your mental state then even if it's like voluntary or not like it it's like voluntary or not like it it's like voluntary or not like it probably is going to have some effect probably is going to have some effect probably is going to have some effect and sometimes it can be positive and sometimes it can be positive and sometimes it can be positive sometimes it might be negative yeah sometimes it might be negative yeah sometimes it might be negative yeah anything else interesting about this anything else interesting about this anything else interesting about this study um no but I just want to say like study um no but I just want to say like study um no but I just want to say like broadly the the most profound broadly the the most profound broadly the the most profound physiological thing uh is that we seen physiological thing uh is that we seen physiological thing uh is that we seen increase in nephrine and even though increase in nephrine and even though increase in nephrine and even though we're not measuring it in the plasma or we're not measuring it in the plasma or we're not measuring it in the plasma or we're not measuring it in the brain we're not measuring it in the brain we're not measuring it in the brain we're measuring it in plasma and norrine we're measuring it in plasma and norrine we're measuring it in plasma and norrine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier doesn't cross the blood brain barrier doesn't cross the blood brain barrier that there's probably an increase of that there's probably an increase of that there's probably an increase of nephrine in the brain and you know the nephrine in the brain and you know the nephrine in the brain and you know the the extent to which this is important I the extent to which this is important I the extent to which this is important I I'm I'm not sure but we know that I'm I'm not sure but we know that I'm I'm not sure but we know that exercise also increases nephrine uh some exercise also increases nephrine uh some exercise also increases nephrine uh some of these medications do as well so I of these medications do as well so I of these medications do as well so I think it it's going to be interesting to think it it's going to be interesting to think it it's going to be interesting to look at you know what is the actual look at you know what is the actual look at you know what is the actual utility behind this and does that utility behind this and does that utility behind this and does that explain a lot of these mood benefits explain a lot of these mood benefits explain a lot of these mood benefits that we're seeing or is it more so just
48:00that we're seeing or is it more so just that we're seeing or is it more so just like a change in someone's psychological like a change in someone's psychological like a change in someone's psychological response and changing their mindset like response and changing their mindset like response and changing their mindset like I mentioned yeah doing something like I mentioned yeah doing something like I mentioned yeah doing something like doing something doing something doing something hard is probably gonna it's like a hard is probably gonna it's like a hard is probably gonna it's like a behavioral therapy right right yeah okay behavioral therapy right right yeah okay behavioral therapy right right yeah okay let's talk about inflamation and immune let's talk about inflamation and immune let's talk about inflamation and immune functioning yeah so like these studies functioning yeah so like these studies functioning yeah so like these studies weren't seeing any positive benefits on weren't seeing any positive benefits on weren't seeing any positive benefits on the inflam response like they're not the inflam response like they're not the inflam response like they're not they're seeing stable inflammatory cyto they're seeing stable inflammatory cyto they're seeing stable inflammatory cyto kindes but this is kind of like one of kindes but this is kind of like one of kindes but this is kind of like one of the main claims about cold exposure is the main claims about cold exposure is the main claims about cold exposure is that it does change the immune system so that it does change the immune system so that it does change the immune system so at this point I'd say like it's probably at this point I'd say like it's probably at this point I'd say like it's probably not so much uh the mood the mood not so much uh the mood the mood not so much uh the mood the mood benefits aren't due to reduction and benefits aren't due to reduction and benefits aren't due to reduction and inflammation at least at this point I'd inflammation at least at this point I'd inflammation at least at this point I'd say but uh you know some initial studies say but uh you know some initial studies say but uh you know some initial studies did show that people who did cold did show that people who did cold did show that people who did cold exposure had 40% less upper respiratory exposure had 40% less upper respiratory exposure had 40% less upper respiratory infections but again this was like one infections but again this was like one infections but again this was like one of those Cold Water Swimming studies and of those Cold Water Swimming studies and of those Cold Water Swimming studies and it was a
49:00it was a it was a self-report um but then I think one of self-report um but then I think one of self-report um but then I think one of the more interesting ones is um the the more interesting ones is um the the more interesting ones is um the effect of the Adaptive response effect of the Adaptive response effect of the Adaptive response to a an infectious agent uh like a um to a an infectious agent uh like a um to a an infectious agent uh like a um one study looked at the injection of a one study looked at the injection of a one study looked at the injection of a bacterial endotoxin and this was like bacterial endotoxin and this was like bacterial endotoxin and this was like Wim Hoff and his followers there were 14 Wim Hoff and his followers there were 14 Wim Hoff and his followers there were 14 people and they saw that the people who people and they saw that the people who people and they saw that the people who did the Wim Hoff method and cold did the Wim Hoff method and cold did the Wim Hoff method and cold exposure they had a a lower increase of exposure they had a a lower increase of exposure they had a a lower increase of il6 in TF Alpha so these inflammatory il6 in TF Alpha so these inflammatory il6 in TF Alpha so these inflammatory cyto kindes in response to this cyto kindes in response to this cyto kindes in response to this endotoxin but I mean this this hasn't endotoxin but I mean this this hasn't endotoxin but I mean this this hasn't been like a study that's been replicated been like a study that's been replicated been like a study that's been replicated since then um but I mean there is there since then um but I mean there is there since then um but I mean there is there is still some claim to be made about you is still some claim to be made about you is still some claim to be made about you know the effect of the stress response know the effect of the stress response know the effect of the stress response changing the immune system like if you changing the immune system like if you changing the immune system like if you do cold exposure and you have a robust do cold exposure and you have a robust do cold exposure and you have a robust stress response and you increasing orpr stress response and you increasing orpr stress response and you increasing orpr and increasing cortisol and these are and increasing cortisol and these are and increasing cortisol and these are known to modulate the immune system to known to modulate the immune system to known to modulate the immune system to kind of prepare it for infectious uh
50:00kind of prepare it for infectious uh kind of prepare it for infectious uh processes so maybe there could be some processes so maybe there could be some processes so maybe there could be some case to be made about the stress case to be made about the stress case to be made about the stress response from the cold uh helping to response from the cold uh helping to response from the cold uh helping to combat infections but there's really not combat infections but there's really not combat infections but there's really not any studies about this yet um but I I any studies about this yet um but I I any studies about this yet um but I I think at this point it doesn't seem like think at this point it doesn't seem like think at this point it doesn't seem like there's a robust systemic response um there's a robust systemic response um there's a robust systemic response um aside from these edge cases maybe yeah aside from these edge cases maybe yeah aside from these edge cases maybe yeah and going back to our sauna study we and going back to our sauna study we and going back to our sauna study we found that there was a a significant found that there was a a significant found that there was a a significant reduction in reduction in reduction in pneumonia and you know this was pneumonia and you know this was pneumonia and you know this was hospital-based pneumonia data that they hospital-based pneumonia data that they hospital-based pneumonia data that they were looking at um it was at were looking at um it was at were looking at um it was at 37% reduced risk of 37% reduced risk of 37% reduced risk of pneumonia with with the people that were pneumonia with with the people that were pneumonia with with the people that were using the SAA four to seven times a week using the SAA four to seven times a week using the SAA four to seven times a week compared to one time a week um there was compared to one time a week um there was compared to one time a week um there was a 78% reduction in psychotic disorder a 78% reduction in psychotic disorder a 78% reduction in psychotic disorder which I think a lot of it probably was which I think a lot of it probably was which I think a lot of it probably was delirium this was uh all types of py P delirium this was uh all types of py P delirium this was uh all types of py P otic disorders in patients who were otic disorders in patients who were otic disorders in patients who were excluded to have antipsychotics at the
51:00excluded to have antipsychotics at the excluded to have antipsychotics at the beginning of the beginning of the beginning of the study so you know was it the cold was it study so you know was it the cold was it study so you know was it the cold was it the the the heat was it both was it the the practice heat was it both was it the the practice heat was it both was it the the practice of doing something like that over time of doing something like that over time of doing something like that over time right because also it's hard to study in right because also it's hard to study in right because also it's hard to study in these these these types of things like these these these types of things like these these these types of things like okay is it you know is the Cold Water okay is it you know is the Cold Water okay is it you know is the Cold Water Swimming is it the exercise is it the Swimming is it the exercise is it the Swimming is it the exercise is it the the cold and that that having that the cold and that that having that the cold and that that having that stress stress is it the sauna and having that sort of is it the sauna and having that sort of is it the sauna and having that sort of positive impact so I would probably say positive impact so I would probably say positive impact so I would probably say more more more studies are needed Y at this point yeah studies are needed Y at this point yeah studies are needed Y at this point yeah definitely I think that's going to be definitely I think that's going to be definitely I think that's going to be like our general conclusion for a lot of like our general conclusion for a lot of like our general conclusion for a lot of the stuff that we're talking about today the stuff that we're talking about today the stuff that we're talking about today there's just not great quality studies there's just not great quality studies there's just not great quality studies out there there's a huge need for it out there there's a huge need for it out there there's a huge need for it okay and then yeah go ahe yeah I was okay and then yeah go ahe yeah I was okay and then yeah go ahe yeah I was going to say one one thing one more going to say one one thing one more going to say one one thing one more thing about inflammation that I did want thing about inflammation that I did want thing about inflammation that I did want to mention is like obviously people use to mention is like obviously people use to mention is like obviously people use like ice packs and um a lot of people
52:00like ice packs and um a lot of people like ice packs and um a lot of people after exercising they'll do ice baths after exercising they'll do ice baths after exercising they'll do ice baths like I mentioned with athletes and it like I mentioned with athletes and it like I mentioned with athletes and it does seem like there could be a does seem like there could be a does seem like there could be a potential role for post exercise potential role for post exercise potential role for post exercise inflammation like one study one meta inflammation like one study one meta inflammation like one study one meta analysis didn't show an effect but uh we analysis didn't show an effect but uh we analysis didn't show an effect but uh we know that uh as we'll talk about a know that uh as we'll talk about a know that uh as we'll talk about a little bit little bit little bit later that cold exposure does decrease later that cold exposure does decrease later that cold exposure does decrease anabolic signaling which itself is anabolic signaling which itself is anabolic signaling which itself is reliant on inflammatory processes and reliant on inflammatory processes and reliant on inflammatory processes and muscle damage cell damage and it dampens muscle damage cell damage and it dampens muscle damage cell damage and it dampens that response so there might be some that response so there might be some that response so there might be some effect for a reduction in uh localized effect for a reduction in uh localized effect for a reduction in uh localized inflammation so for like a muscle to inflammation so for like a muscle to inflammation so for like a muscle to reduce the swelling to reduce the immune reduce the swelling to reduce the immune reduce the swelling to reduce the immune response there but it doesn't seem like response there but it doesn't seem like response there but it doesn't seem like there's a systemic response towards um there's a systemic response towards um there's a systemic response towards um cold cold cold exposure you know there's um I think exposure you know there's um I think exposure you know there's um I think with the exercise ones we'll get to it with the exercise ones we'll get to it with the exercise ones we'll get to it but it's like will it you know with with but it's like will it you know with with but it's like will it you know with with hypertrophy people are trying to get a hypertrophy people are trying to get a hypertrophy people are trying to get a little bit of inflammation in your
53:00little bit of inflammation in your little bit of inflammation in your muscles to get that hypertrophy to get muscles to get that hypertrophy to get muscles to get that hypertrophy to get that muscles to increase in size I think that muscles to increase in size I think that muscles to increase in size I think this is saying you may not get as much this is saying you may not get as much this is saying you may not get as much hypertrophy but you will get the hypertrophy but you will get the hypertrophy but you will get the strength adaptation which is interesting strength adaptation which is interesting strength adaptation which is interesting right that's what we found right okay so right that's what we found right okay so right that's what we found right okay so what about um the psychological aspects what about um the psychological aspects what about um the psychological aspects of cold therapy mindfulness overcoming of cold therapy mindfulness overcoming of cold therapy mindfulness overcoming dissociation which I would say the dissociation which I would say the dissociation which I would say the dissociation is something that I've dissociation is something that I've dissociation is something that I've thought about is like you know I could thought about is like you know I could thought about is like you know I could be in a little bit of a dissociative be in a little bit of a dissociative be in a little bit of a dissociative Haze like I said and it can snap me out Haze like I said and it can snap me out Haze like I said and it can snap me out of it I could wake up in a funk it'll of it I could wake up in a funk it'll of it I could wake up in a funk it'll snap me out of it that dissociate that snap me out of it that dissociate that snap me out of it that dissociate that dissociative State kind of the not quite dissociative State kind of the not quite dissociative State kind of the not quite fully present in your body um we fully present in your body um we fully present in your body um we all can have dissociative States it's all can have dissociative States it's all can have dissociative States it's not like you have to have like did or not like you have to have like did or not like you have to have like did or some trauma to have it um if some trauma to have it um if some trauma to have it um if you are overly saturated you are overly saturated you are overly saturated with distressing topics you may yourself with distressing topics you may yourself
54:00with distressing topics you may yourself feel a little bit more feel a little bit more feel a little bit more dissociative I have seen cold exposure dissociative I have seen cold exposure dissociative I have seen cold exposure help people snap out of a funk okay so help people snap out of a funk okay so help people snap out of a funk okay so in regard to the psychological in regard to the psychological in regard to the psychological aspects what what did you what did you aspects what what did you what did you aspects what what did you what did you want to mention yeah I wanted to mention want to mention yeah I wanted to mention want to mention yeah I wanted to mention that it does seem like cold exposure is that it does seem like cold exposure is that it does seem like cold exposure is kind of like a mini meditation or like a kind of like a mini meditation or like a kind of like a mini meditation or like a mindfulness session because it kind of mindfulness session because it kind of mindfulness session because it kind of brings your attention directly to the brings your attention directly to the brings your attention directly to the present moment present moment present moment and to your body so it increases that and to your body so it increases that and to your body so it increases that bodily connection your thoughts to the bodily connection your thoughts to the bodily connection your thoughts to the present moment your attention to that present moment your attention to that present moment your attention to that instead of you know whatever goings on instead of you know whatever goings on instead of you know whatever goings on you have in your life uh that have been you have in your life uh that have been you have in your life uh that have been stressing you out it really forces you stressing you out it really forces you stressing you out it really forces you into the present and to think about what into the present and to think about what into the present and to think about what you're feeling in your body and to have you're feeling in your body and to have you're feeling in your body and to have to calm yourself like you're you're to calm yourself like you're you're to calm yourself like you're you're breathing instead of being like and breathing instead of being like and breathing instead of being like and gasping when you're in the water to slow gasping when you're in the water to slow gasping when you're in the water to slow your breathing calm your breathing like your breathing calm your breathing like your breathing calm your breathing like that that that is profoundly um that that that is profoundly um that that that is profoundly um relaxing and um I just wanted to read relaxing and um I just wanted to read relaxing and um I just wanted to read some of the quotes from a qualitative
55:00some of the quotes from a qualitative some of the quotes from a qualitative study that just came out in study that just came out in study that just came out in 2024 about Danish swimmers uh cold water 2024 about Danish swimmers uh cold water 2024 about Danish swimmers uh cold water swimmers uh they said it can be quite swimmers uh they said it can be quite swimmers uh they said it can be quite meditative to sit there in the water you meditative to sit there in the water you meditative to sit there in the water you quickly forget other things and have a quickly forget other things and have a quickly forget other things and have a strong focus on being present in the strong focus on being present in the strong focus on being present in the moment because it's challenging to think moment because it's challenging to think moment because it's challenging to think about other stuff when you're hitting about other stuff when you're hitting about other stuff when you're hitting when you're getting hit with that cold when you're getting hit with that cold when you're getting hit with that cold water constantly so I don't think much water constantly so I don't think much water constantly so I don't think much is happening in your head here's another is happening in your head here's another is happening in your head here's another quote sometimes it can be challenging to quote sometimes it can be challenging to quote sometimes it can be challenging to sit and meditate and not think about sit and meditate and not think about sit and meditate and not think about anything but when you get in the cold anything but when you get in the cold anything but when you get in the cold water you just can't think about water you just can't think about water you just can't think about anything else it's like the body with anything else it's like the body with anything else it's like the body with the cold and the warmth just forces you the cold and the warmth just forces you the cold and the warmth just forces you to be in the to be in the to be in the moment and what a antidote to the world moment and what a antidote to the world moment and what a antidote to the world we live in right where it's like there's we live in right where it's like there's we live in right where it's like there's so many things pulling for our so many things pulling for our so many things pulling for our attention um to be fully in the moment attention um to be fully in the moment attention um to be fully in the moment present right it's I I think um present right it's I I think um present right it's I I think um I I think most people should engage in a I I think most people should engage in a I I think most people should engage in a practice like this that takes their
56:00practice like this that takes their practice like this that takes their attention away from whatever default attention away from whatever default attention away from whatever default setting it was in uh thinking about setting it was in uh thinking about setting it was in uh thinking about whatever is going on and then just whatever is going on and then just whatever is going on and then just collapsing them to to this setting where collapsing them to to this setting where collapsing them to to this setting where it's like they're completely in Tuck to it's like they're completely in Tuck to it's like they're completely in Tuck to their body and then after that you can their body and then after that you can their body and then after that you can maybe your attention is different and maybe your attention is different and maybe your attention is different and you think about different things that you think about different things that you think about different things that are more important like oh I have to go are more important like oh I have to go are more important like oh I have to go um exercise or I have to go walk the dog um exercise or I have to go walk the dog um exercise or I have to go walk the dog or do something more productive I think or do something more productive I think or do something more productive I think that it gives you an opportunity to do that it gives you an opportunity to do that it gives you an opportunity to do that um but I I think it also you need that um but I I think it also you need that um but I I think it also you need to put it in context where you can allow to put it in context where you can allow to put it in context where you can allow yourself to do that like you mentioned yourself to do that like you mentioned yourself to do that like you mentioned that you do some cold exposure when that you do some cold exposure when that you do some cold exposure when you're feeling dissociated uh so it you're feeling dissociated uh so it you're feeling dissociated uh so it really allows you to give that event to really allows you to give that event to really allows you to give that event to where you can go from one setting and where you can go from one setting and where you can go from one setting and then to the next or one state of mind to then to the next or one state of mind to then to the next or one state of mind to another state of mind uh so I think another state of mind uh so I think another state of mind uh so I think there is a profound benefit for that but there is a profound benefit for that but there is a profound benefit for that but unfortunately there's not many studies unfortunately there's not many studies unfortunately there's not many studies that actually address that you know that actually address that you know that actually address that you know there there's two two things that come there there's two two things that come there there's two two things that come to my mind one is for for patients with to my mind one is for for patients with to my mind one is for for patients with borderline personal
57:00borderline personal borderline personal disorder part of DBT is to to grab some disorder part of DBT is to to grab some disorder part of DBT is to to grab some ice and hold ice in your hands maybe ice and hold ice in your hands maybe ice and hold ice in your hands maybe like rub it on your like rub it on your like rub it on your forehead um this this has worked in a forehead um this this has worked in a forehead um this this has worked in a number of patients who dissociate now I number of patients who dissociate now I number of patients who dissociate now I had one patient who would hold something had one patient who would hold something had one patient who would hold something cold and it would make her dissociate cold and it would make her dissociate cold and it would make her dissociate more because it was so more because it was so more because it was so unpleasant so you have to gauge the unpleasant so you have to gauge the unpleasant so you have to gauge the person you know I remember one I have a person you know I remember one I have a person you know I remember one I have a I have a freezer down the hall and I had I have a freezer down the hall and I had I have a freezer down the hall and I had this patient who was dissociating and this patient who was dissociating and this patient who was dissociating and went down there and had this cold cap went down there and had this cold cap went down there and had this cold cap that he put on your that he put on your that he put on your head and um I was like do you feel head and um I was like do you feel head and um I was like do you feel better she's like yeah and I looked at better she's like yeah and I looked at better she's like yeah and I looked at her and I could feel more dissociative her and I could feel more dissociative her and I could feel more dissociative than she was before like I can feel than she was before like I can feel than she was before like I can feel someone's dissociation I was like do you someone's dissociation I was like do you someone's dissociation I was like do you feel it's okay if you feel worse she's feel it's okay if you feel worse she's feel it's okay if you feel worse she's like yeah I feel worse I'm like okay like yeah I feel worse I'm like okay like yeah I feel worse I'm like okay let's take it off um and I think she let's take it off um and I think she let's take it off um and I think she appreciated me noticing you know she was appreciated me noticing you know she was appreciated me noticing you know she was like wanting to appease me like wanting to appease me like wanting to appease me by doing this thing but then when by doing this thing but then when by doing this thing but then when I I could tell she was doing worse on it
58:00I I could tell she was doing worse on it I I could tell she was doing worse on it she stopped and she felt better um so we she stopped and she felt better um so we she stopped and she felt better um so we have to be careful as providers as well have to be careful as providers as well have to be careful as providers as well at saying at saying at saying things and then patients do it just just things and then patients do it just just things and then patients do it just just because they want to make us because they want to make us because they want to make us happy um that's a risk okay so so the happy um that's a risk okay so so the happy um that's a risk okay so so the first thing is some some it helps some first thing is some some it helps some first thing is some some it helps some it doesn't pay it doesn't pay it doesn't pay attention uh you experiment with it the attention uh you experiment with it the attention uh you experiment with it the second thing is once in a while I hear second thing is once in a while I hear second thing is once in a while I hear of someone jumping into cold water as of someone jumping into cold water as of someone jumping into cold water as like a suicide like a suicide like a suicide attempt and then once they're in the attempt and then once they're in the attempt and then once they're in the water they decide they want to water they decide they want to water they decide they want to live and I've heard this a number of live and I've heard this a number of live and I've heard this a number of times and then and I saw and it occurred times and then and I saw and it occurred times and then and I saw and it occurred to me as I'm as I'm thinking about this to me as I'm as I'm thinking about this to me as I'm as I'm thinking about this like oh I wonder if the cold snapped like oh I wonder if the cold snapped like oh I wonder if the cold snapped them out of whatever Funk they were them out of whatever Funk they were them out of whatever Funk they were in and like in and like in and like they you know it it changed how they they you know it it changed how they they you know it it changed how they were thinking about hurting themselves were thinking about hurting themselves were thinking about hurting themselves in the moment you know so right even in the moment you know so right even in the moment you know so right even like the previous study that we're like the previous study that we're like the previous study that we're talking about with brain activity
59:00talking about with brain activity talking about with brain activity changes like it does change the changes like it does change the changes like it does change the prefrontal cortex dorsal out prefrontal prefrontal cortex dorsal out prefrontal prefrontal cortex dorsal out prefrontal cortex and here sing that all these cortex and here sing that all these cortex and here sing that all these regions that are associated with you regions that are associated with you regions that are associated with you know constructing narratives and what's know constructing narratives and what's know constructing narratives and what's important to pay attention to so I think important to pay attention to so I think important to pay attention to so I think there is something to be said about cold there is something to be said about cold there is something to be said about cold exposure snapping someone out of a exposure snapping someone out of a exposure snapping someone out of a certain thought pattern potentially okay certain thought pattern potentially okay certain thought pattern potentially okay so the placebo effect let's talk about so the placebo effect let's talk about so the placebo effect let's talk about this because is it is there any data to this because is it is there any data to this because is it is there any data to support that this is just to Placebo support that this is just to Placebo support that this is just to Placebo right and we know we know from Placebo right and we know we know from Placebo right and we know we know from Placebo studies if you go back to I think it was studies if you go back to I think it was studies if you go back to I think it was like years ago I did an episode with like years ago I did an episode with like years ago I did an episode with markart on Placebo we know that like if markart on Placebo we know that like if markart on Placebo we know that like if you inject someone with something it you inject someone with something it you inject someone with something it increases the placebo response if it's a increases the placebo response if it's a increases the placebo response if it's a surgery it increases the placebo surgery it increases the placebo surgery it increases the placebo response right if if the pill is a response right if if the pill is a response right if if the pill is a bright color versus white it increases bright color versus white it increases bright color versus white it increases the placebo response if it if it's an the placebo response if it if it's an the placebo response if it if it's an expensive pill vers a cold one it expensive pill vers a cold one it expensive pill vers a cold one it increases the placebo increases the placebo increases the placebo response so what did this study find
1:00response so what did this study find response so what did this study find yeah there's two studies that I want to yeah there's two studies that I want to yeah there's two studies that I want to mention the first is I think really mention the first is I think really mention the first is I think really interesting it just came out uh interesting it just came out uh interesting it just came out uh 2024 it was 21 days of Wim Hoff method 2024 it was 21 days of Wim Hoff method 2024 it was 21 days of Wim Hoff method which is the cold showers plus rapid which is the cold showers plus rapid which is the cold showers plus rapid breathing so they didn't use like breathing so they didn't use like breathing so they didn't use like extreme colds but they used cold showers extreme colds but they used cold showers extreme colds but they used cold showers which itself is kind of stressful and which itself is kind of stressful and which itself is kind of stressful and then the active control was warm showers then the active control was warm showers then the active control was warm showers and slow breathing so the complete and slow breathing so the complete and slow breathing so the complete opposite of of Wim hoof and they looked opposite of of Wim hoof and they looked opposite of of Wim hoof and they looked at 78 patients with mild depression of a at 78 patients with mild depression of a at 78 patients with mild depression of a pH phq score of like about around 10 to pH phq score of like about around 10 to pH phq score of like about around 10 to 20 uh and these were all women and both 20 uh and these were all women and both 20 uh and these were all women and both groups experienced a 20 to 30% reduction groups experienced a 20 to 30% reduction groups experienced a 20 to 30% reduction in depression and anxiety uh but there in depression and anxiety uh but there in depression and anxiety uh but there are no differences between the groups are no differences between the groups are no differences between the groups and how long were they in the the cold and how long were they in the the cold and how long were they in the the cold uh I think it they're just instructed to uh I think it they're just instructed to uh I think it they're just instructed to go for as long as they could tolerate go for as long as they could tolerate go for as long as they could tolerate and was it a shower but it was it was a and was it a shower but it was it was a and was it a shower but it was it was a couple minutes it it was a cold shower couple minutes it it was a cold shower couple minutes it it was a cold shower so for in terms of the duration they it so for in terms of the duration they it so for in terms of the duration they it looks like they increased throughout the
1:01looks like they increased throughout the looks like they increased throughout the week they did they first started with 30 week they did they first started with 30 week they did they first started with 30 seconds for Days 1 to three and then 1 seconds for Days 1 to three and then 1 seconds for Days 1 to three and then 1 to three minutes for days four to six to three minutes for days four to six to three minutes for days four to six and then two to three minutes for the and then two to three minutes for the and then two to three minutes for the remaining remaining remaining days again for a total of 21 days and days again for a total of 21 days and days again for a total of 21 days and the breathing practice was roughly 15 the breathing practice was roughly 15 the breathing practice was roughly 15 minutes per session so that's minutes per session so that's minutes per session so that's significant that that has an impact in significant that that has an impact in significant that that has an impact in of itself right sitting there breathing of itself right sitting there breathing of itself right sitting there breathing slow breath slow breath slow breath yeah it isn't it is an intervention and yeah it isn't it is an intervention and yeah it isn't it is an intervention and but you wouldn't think at first that but you wouldn't think at first that but you wouldn't think at first that this would cause an anti- depressing this would cause an anti- depressing this would cause an anti- depressing effect or an anti-anxiety effect or an anti-anxiety effect or an anti-anxiety effect but I mean it is a type of effect but I mean it is a type of effect but I mean it is a type of intervention so again is does that say intervention so again is does that say intervention so again is does that say is this cold Wim Hoff breathing is that is this cold Wim Hoff breathing is that is this cold Wim Hoff breathing is that beneficial or is it just doing an beneficial or is it just doing an beneficial or is it just doing an intervention also participants were intervention also participants were intervention also participants were given money um they were recruited given money um they were recruited given money um they were recruited through local Outreach newsletters San through local Outreach newsletters San through local Outreach newsletters San Francisco employees
1:02Francisco employees Francisco employees Flyers online advertisers okay so they Flyers online advertisers okay so they Flyers online advertisers okay so they were given $470 for were given $470 for were given $470 for completion you know so I'm always like completion you know so I'm always like completion you know so I'm always like okay are these like what's the okay are these like what's the okay are these like what's the incentive are these guys are these incentive are these guys are these incentive are these guys are these people like oh I better score high on people like oh I better score high on people like oh I better score high on this coming this coming this coming in um okay so what is the temperature of in um okay so what is the temperature of in um okay so what is the temperature of the water I don't think they reported the water I don't think they reported the water I don't think they reported the water temperature I think it was the water temperature I think it was the water temperature I think it was just as cold as they could get in their just as cold as they could get in their just as cold as they could get in their shower in shower in shower in California what time of the year is it California what time of the year is it California what time of the year is it um I don't think it was cold enough no um I don't think it was cold enough no um I don't think it was cold enough no it definitely was not I I don't think it definitely was not I I don't think it definitely was not I I don't think and shower is is such a different and shower is is such a different and shower is is such a different experience than just immersion but experience than just immersion but experience than just immersion but everyone got better and so I'm thinking everyone got better and so I'm thinking everyone got better and so I'm thinking it probably was the breathing and the it probably was the breathing and the it probably was the breathing and the just being a part of a group doing just being a part of a group doing just being a part of a group doing something yeah doing something different something yeah doing something different something yeah doing something different I mean 15 minutes of breathing I think I mean 15 minutes of breathing I think I mean 15 minutes of breathing I think it's a mindful activity so I think it's a mindful activity so I think it's a mindful activity so I think essentially you were looking at two essentially you were looking at two essentially you were looking at two different arms of different arms of different arms of mindfulness um I don't think that the
1:03mindfulness um I don't think that the mindfulness um I don't think that the cold was cold enough which I think there cold was cold enough which I think there cold was cold enough which I think there so it's like I wouldn't look at this so it's like I wouldn't look at this so it's like I wouldn't look at this study and say oh look it's a study and say oh look it's a study and say oh look it's a placebo cold cold immersion is a placebo placebo cold cold immersion is a placebo placebo cold cold immersion is a placebo because it just wasn't cold enough yeah because it just wasn't cold enough yeah because it just wasn't cold enough yeah that definitely makes sense because that definitely makes sense because that definitely makes sense because you're not going to have the same you're not going to have the same you're not going to have the same physiological effects like you're going physiological effects like you're going physiological effects like you're going to have some psychological stress going to have some psychological stress going to have some psychological stress going into the shower uh if it's cold where into the shower uh if it's cold where into the shower uh if it's cold where you're not going to see that with the you're not going to see that with the you're not going to see that with the warm showers warm showers warm showers so that's like pretty much the only so that's like pretty much the only so that's like pretty much the only difference that you'd see is maybe some difference that you'd see is maybe some difference that you'd see is maybe some psychological stress and then overcoming psychological stress and then overcoming psychological stress and then overcoming that but not to the same extent nearly that but not to the same extent nearly that but not to the same extent nearly as much as a cold plunge what I could as much as a cold plunge what I could as much as a cold plunge what I could say from this is that I'm not sure that say from this is that I'm not sure that say from this is that I'm not sure that the Wim Hoff breathing is magical the Wim Hoff breathing is magical the Wim Hoff breathing is magical compared to just slow mindful more like compared to just slow mindful more like compared to just slow mindful more like the yoga breathing which I think is the yoga breathing which I think is the yoga breathing which I think is really good like that's the kind of Bio really good like that's the kind of Bio really good like that's the kind of Bio feedback bre breathing that people feedback bre breathing that people feedback bre breathing that people do you know that do you know that do you know that slow slow breathing 15 minutes slow slow breathing 15 minutes slow slow breathing 15 minutes interesting okay interesting okay interesting okay well you guys can look at that study
1:04well you guys can look at that study well you guys can look at that study more and if you have other thoughts let more and if you have other thoughts let more and if you have other thoughts let me know but I'm not thinking that that me know but I'm not thinking that that me know but I'm not thinking that that takes away my it's not like the placebo takes away my it's not like the placebo takes away my it's not like the placebo was uh or the Wim Hoff was like five was uh or the Wim Hoff was like five was uh or the Wim Hoff was like five minutes at 45 degrees Fahrenheit you minutes at 45 degrees Fahrenheit you minutes at 45 degrees Fahrenheit you know which is kind of what I would need know which is kind of what I would need know which is kind of what I would need to see to be convinced that it's just a to see to be convinced that it's just a to see to be convinced that it's just a placebo yeah plus plus we know okay from placebo yeah plus plus we know okay from placebo yeah plus plus we know okay from the other studies that the norp the other studies that the norp the other studies that the norp andrine changed andrine changed andrine changed when you got to the colder temperatures when you got to the colder temperatures when you got to the colder temperatures but not that you know not the warmer but not that you know not the warmer but not that you know not the warmer ones not the warmer ones so it's like ones not the warmer ones so it's like ones not the warmer ones so it's like you're going to see different you're going to see different you're going to see different physiologic brain effects in those physiologic brain effects in those physiologic brain effects in those colder ranges right but then again you colder ranges right but then again you colder ranges right but then again you you can still see like the psychological you can still see like the psychological you can still see like the psychological but nearly not as much as the uh as the but nearly not as much as the uh as the but nearly not as much as the uh as the actual true cold exposure where you get actual true cold exposure where you get actual true cold exposure where you get some of the bottom up effects as well some of the bottom up effects as well some of the bottom up effects as well let's go to theoretical underpinnings of let's go to theoretical underpinnings of let's go to theoretical underpinnings of enhanced mood effects enhanced mood effects enhanced mood effects oh I want to talk about one other placea oh I want to talk about one other placea oh I want to talk about one other placea study first okay let's do it so so this
1:05study first okay let's do it so so this study first okay let's do it so so this was a recovery like post exercise was a recovery like post exercise was a recovery like post exercise recovery uh study where I thought the recovery uh study where I thought the recovery uh study where I thought the design here is really interesting and I design here is really interesting and I design here is really interesting and I think they did a better job at think they did a better job at think they did a better job at controlling for the placebo effect so controlling for the placebo effect so controlling for the placebo effect so essentially what they did is they used essentially what they did is they used essentially what they did is they used cold water immersion at uh 10° C around cold water immersion at uh 10° C around cold water immersion at uh 10° C around 40 to 50 degrees fhe and they had one 40 to 50 degrees fhe and they had one 40 to 50 degrees fhe and they had one group in cold water immersion after a group in cold water immersion after a group in cold water immersion after a workout and they had another group at workout and they had another group at workout and they had another group at Theron Thermon neutral temperature so Theron Thermon neutral temperature so Theron Thermon neutral temperature so around like 70 degrees fenhe and then around like 70 degrees fenhe and then around like 70 degrees fenhe and then another group that had the same Thermon another group that had the same Thermon another group that had the same Thermon neutral uh temperature the room neutral uh temperature the room neutral uh temperature the room temperature water and then they added a temperature water and then they added a temperature water and then they added a a squirt of soap in this water and they a squirt of soap in this water and they a squirt of soap in this water and they told participants like oh this is going told participants like oh this is going told participants like oh this is going to help your to help your to help your recovery so what they found is that only recovery so what they found is that only recovery so what they found is that only the control group without the with the the control group without the with the the control group without the with the one that didn't have the placebo the one one that didn't have the placebo the one one that didn't have the placebo the one that didn't have cold water only this that didn't have cold water only this that didn't have cold water only this group had a reduction in leg strength
1:06group had a reduction in leg strength group had a reduction in leg strength and higher subjective ratings of pain and higher subjective ratings of pain and higher subjective ratings of pain and reduction in Vigor after completing and reduction in Vigor after completing and reduction in Vigor after completing an exercise uh high intensity interval an exercise uh high intensity interval an exercise uh high intensity interval training session only in what group the training session only in what group the training session only in what group the control group The the group that was in control group The the group that was in control group The the group that was in the room temperature water without the the room temperature water without the the room temperature water without the squirt of soap so the the group with the squirt of soap so the the group with the squirt of soap so the the group with the squirt of soap and the cold water squirt of soap and the cold water squirt of soap and the cold water immersion group both of these groups had immersion group both of these groups had immersion group both of these groups had reduced pain uh Readiness increased reduced pain uh Readiness increased reduced pain uh Readiness increased Readiness for exercise increased Vigor Readiness for exercise increased Vigor Readiness for exercise increased Vigor after completing a high intensity after completing a high intensity after completing a high intensity interval session so they had less interval session so they had less interval session so they had less soreness and they also had um greater soreness and they also had um greater soreness and they also had um greater strength compared to the control group strength compared to the control group strength compared to the control group so so I think this this is more of a so so I think this this is more of a so so I think this this is more of a placebo response um like more of a placebo response um like more of a placebo response um like more of a definitive Placebo response try telling definitive Placebo response try telling definitive Placebo response try telling every athlete who swears by it right every athlete who swears by it right every athlete who swears by it right that this makes them better right I mean that this makes them better right I mean that this makes them better right I mean like but but it it actually might make like but but it it actually might make like but but it it actually might make them better if they think that it is them better if they think that it is them better if they think that it is that's that's the wildness of our brains
1:07that's that's the wildness of our brains that's that's the wildness of our brains right the meaning attribution that we right the meaning attribution that we right the meaning attribution that we give to things changes the thing itself give to things changes the thing itself give to things changes the thing itself yeah really interesting I go back to the yeah really interesting I go back to the yeah really interesting I go back to the placebo medications like they they did placebo medications like they they did placebo medications like they they did this one Placebo study where they were this one Placebo study where they were this one Placebo study where they were looking at a um for Parkinson's patients looking at a um for Parkinson's patients looking at a um for Parkinson's patients how much a how much a how much a placebo increased the dopamine in the placebo increased the dopamine in the placebo increased the dopamine in the brain and it actually increased it brain and it actually increased it brain and it actually increased it because they told the participants this because they told the participants this because they told the participants this was going to increase the dopamine in was going to increase the dopamine in was going to increase the dopamine in your brain and and the dopamine increase your brain and and the dopamine increase your brain and and the dopamine increase was associated with reduction in the was associated with reduction in the was associated with reduction in the Parkinson symptoms yeah and you you also Parkinson symptoms yeah and you you also Parkinson symptoms yeah and you you also see other uh mindbody connections with see other uh mindbody connections with see other uh mindbody connections with uh sham surgeries and patients with uh uh sham surgeries and patients with uh uh sham surgeries and patients with uh fake knee surgeries and they have fake knee surgeries and they have fake knee surgeries and they have reductions in pain and they never have reductions in pain and they never have reductions in pain and they never have any complaints so there is definitely a any complaints so there is definitely a any complaints so there is definitely a Mind Body Connection you can alter the Mind Body Connection you can alter the Mind Body Connection you can alter the immune system maybe change how your body immune system maybe change how your body immune system maybe change how your body repairs itself or how you perceive the repairs itself or how you perceive the repairs itself or how you perceive the the pain signals from your body so there the pain signals from your body so there the pain signals from your body so there is definitely a placeo effect yep and
1:08is definitely a placeo effect yep and is definitely a placeo effect yep and also think also think also think about patients that are given a nobo about patients that are given a nobo about patients that are given a nobo effect like when doctors say things like effect like when doctors say things like effect like when doctors say things like you I'm looking at your X-ray and you're you I'm looking at your X-ray and you're you I'm looking at your X-ray and you're bone on bone this is going to hurt the bone on bone this is going to hurt the bone on bone this is going to hurt the rest of your life and it's like no don't rest of your life and it's like no don't rest of your life and it's like no don't say that it's never bone on bone like say that it's never bone on bone like say that it's never bone on bone like don't say that yeah like it's it's an don't say that yeah like it's it's an don't say that yeah like it's it's an awful thing to start awful thing to start awful thing to start believing that you will never get better believing that you will never get better believing that you will never get better that's the worst like you want that's the worst like you want that's the worst like you want to yeah to yeah to yeah okay it's good for getting knee replac okay it's good for getting knee replac okay it's good for getting knee replac getting knee Replacements getting knee Replacements getting knee Replacements though it's good for the industry okay though it's good for the industry okay though it's good for the industry okay let's talk about the theoretical let's talk about the theoretical let's talk about the theoretical underpinnings for enhanced mood underpinnings for enhanced mood underpinnings for enhanced mood effects so again you have uh a profound effects so again you have uh a profound effects so again you have uh a profound increase in nephrine if uh you actually increase in nephrine if uh you actually increase in nephrine if uh you actually engage in a cold a cold plunge or very engage in a cold a cold plunge or very engage in a cold a cold plunge or very cold cold cryotherapy and this this could have cryotherapy and this this could have cryotherapy and this this could have some implication for anxiety there are some implication for anxiety there are some implication for anxiety there are some theories about the monomin still some theories about the monomin still some theories about the monomin still being important for anxiety maybe for
1:09being important for anxiety maybe for being important for anxiety maybe for PTSD there there might be elevated PTSD there there might be elevated PTSD there there might be elevated nephrine so some of the arguments for nephrine so some of the arguments for nephrine so some of the arguments for cold exposure could be that it kind of cold exposure could be that it kind of cold exposure could be that it kind of calibrates a signal to noise ratio on calibrates a signal to noise ratio on calibrates a signal to noise ratio on fear and anxiety so if fear and anxiety so if fear and anxiety so if someone has too much anxiety when someone has too much anxiety when someone has too much anxiety when they're not supposed to due to um you they're not supposed to due to um you they're not supposed to due to um you know there no prant increases when it's know there no prant increases when it's know there no prant increases when it's not supposed to if you give your body a not supposed to if you give your body a not supposed to if you give your body a really strong stimulus like a big really strong stimulus like a big really strong stimulus like a big stressor exercise or uh cold exposure stressor exercise or uh cold exposure stressor exercise or uh cold exposure that increases neuropred and than these that increases neuropred and than these that increases neuropred and than these other things that typically cause other things that typically cause other things that typically cause anxiety um in this p in this person anxiety um in this p in this person anxiety um in this p in this person maybe that doesn't cause anxiety because maybe that doesn't cause anxiety because maybe that doesn't cause anxiety because they recalibrated the neurop prence they recalibrated the neurop prence they recalibrated the neurop prence system that that's pretty much the system that that's pretty much the system that that's pretty much the theory behind it yeah that and that's um theory behind it yeah that and that's um theory behind it yeah that and that's um we're seeing the opposite of that with we're seeing the opposite of that with we're seeing the opposite of that with kids that do nothing kids that do nothing kids that do nothing stressful and they they can live years stressful and they they can live years stressful and they they can live years of their life with having no real stress of their life with having no real stress of their life with having no real stress in their life and then the normal
1:10in their life and then the normal in their life and then the normal stresses of Life are stresses of Life are stresses of Life are overwhelming right and so perhaps this overwhelming right and so perhaps this overwhelming right and so perhaps this is a way of doing something is a way of doing something is a way of doing something stressful progressively that then stressful progressively that then stressful progressively that then teaches your stress system to teaches your stress system to teaches your stress system to recalibrate recalibrate recalibrate yeah um I think that's possible I think yeah um I think that's possible I think yeah um I think that's possible I think the norpine effr the dopamine increase the norpine effr the dopamine increase the norpine effr the dopamine increase as well right both of these are for as well right both of these are for as well right both of these are for medications to improve focus depression medications to improve focus depression medications to improve focus depression you know we we give wtin we you know we we give wtin we you know we we give wtin we give um give um give um atomoxetine sometimes these help with atomoxetine sometimes these help with atomoxetine sometimes these help with with mood with with mood with with mood with focus and um focus and um focus and um addiction right and so yeah maybe that's addiction right and so yeah maybe that's addiction right and so yeah maybe that's part of it maybe there's other part of it maybe there's other part of it maybe there's other mechanisms we don't know yet right that mechanisms we don't know yet right that mechanisms we don't know yet right that I mean I feel I mean I feel I mean I feel like when you look at like the field of like when you look at like the field of like when you look at like the field of study for a lot of different things it's study for a lot of different things it's study for a lot of different things it's a lot more EX ensive than this field of a lot more EX ensive than this field of a lot more EX ensive than this field of study yeah but I think the the claims study yeah but I think the the claims
1:11study yeah but I think the the claims that are being made like relative to to that are being made like relative to to that are being made like relative to to the amount of evidence I think it's the amount of evidence I think it's the amount of evidence I think it's actually incredible like the claims that actually incredible like the claims that actually incredible like the claims that are being made on podcasts and the are being made on podcasts and the are being made on podcasts and the anecdotes out there and there's really anecdotes out there and there's really anecdotes out there and there's really not much evidence based to go off of not much evidence based to go off of not much evidence based to go off of which I I think this is I think it is which I I think this is I think it is which I I think this is I think it is really exciting because of all these really exciting because of all these really exciting because of all these anecdotes out there and there is a anecdotes out there and there is a anecdotes out there and there is a potential mechanism to explain how it potential mechanism to explain how it potential mechanism to explain how it can improve your mood I I would say the can improve your mood I I would say the can improve your mood I I would say the one other patient that really sticks out one other patient that really sticks out one other patient that really sticks out to me that has really benefited is this to me that has really benefited is this to me that has really benefited is this young 39y old female who had depression young 39y old female who had depression young 39y old female who had depression real episodes of depression like real episodes of depression like real episodes of depression like discreet major depression would get discreet major depression would get discreet major depression would get severe she was on I think zolof severe she was on I think zolof severe she was on I think zolof 50 and it wasn't doing the full effect 50 and it wasn't doing the full effect 50 and it wasn't doing the full effect this time and so I said well you know this time and so I said well you know this time and so I said well you know this you live by a river why don't you this you live by a river why don't you this you live by a river why don't you just jump in the river three to four just jump in the river three to four just jump in the river three to four minutes every day and see if that's minutes every day and see if that's minutes every day and see if that's helpful so she comes back one month
1:12helpful so she comes back one month helpful so she comes back one month later and you know usually when I give later and you know usually when I give later and you know usually when I give recommendations I don't expect 100% recommendations I don't expect 100% recommendations I don't expect 100% followup follow followup follow followup follow through she she had 100% commitment to through she she had 100% commitment to through she she had 100% commitment to this and she was in a place where it was this and she was in a place where it was this and she was in a place where it was cold enough to uh to get the benefit and cold enough to uh to get the benefit and cold enough to uh to get the benefit and she she said it was like a night and day she she said it was like a night and day she she said it was like a night and day difference it was like it was like the difference it was like it was like the difference it was like it was like the veil that was keeping her veil that was keeping her veil that was keeping her kind of like um in a kind of a haze was kind of like um in a kind of a haze was kind of like um in a kind of a haze was completely gone and she was back completely gone and she was back completely gone and she was back working doing business working doing business working doing business ventures you know still had a lot of and ventures you know still had a lot of and ventures you know still had a lot of and this is someone who had done a lot of this is someone who had done a lot of this is someone who had done a lot of therapy she was in medication she was in therapy she was in medication she was in therapy she was in medication she was in therapy but this seemed to be like very therapy but this seemed to be like very therapy but this seemed to be like very pronounced and she continued doing it pronounced and she continued doing it pronounced and she continued doing it and she was able to get off of the the and she was able to get off of the the and she was able to get off of the the anti-depressant after like about a year anti-depressant after like about a year anti-depressant after like about a year and and and you know swears by um so I don't know
1:13you know swears by um so I don't know you know swears by um so I don't know there's a couple case studies that I there's a couple case studies that I there's a couple case studies that I have right that's one this older have right that's one this older have right that's one this older gentleman is gentleman is gentleman is one um my own experience but I think I one um my own experience but I think I one um my own experience but I think I agree with you that there just isn't a agree with you that there just isn't a agree with you that there just isn't a lot of lot of lot of data and so I'm very hesitant to be too data and so I'm very hesitant to be too data and so I'm very hesitant to be too exuberant right uh exuberant right uh exuberant right uh because you know the last thing we need because you know the last thing we need because you know the last thing we need is is is to think that this is so much better to think that this is so much better to think that this is so much better than therapy or something for you know than therapy or something for you know than therapy or something for you know it's like no no I think it could be like it's like no no I think it could be like it's like no no I think it could be like as an adjunct similar to exercise where as an adjunct similar to exercise where as an adjunct similar to exercise where you have the The Body Benefits you have you have the The Body Benefits you have you have the The Body Benefits you have the the Mind benefits too in my own mind the the Mind benefits too in my own mind the the Mind benefits too in my own mind I would put exercise above this and the I would put exercise above this and the I would put exercise above this and the hierarchy of like things because hierarchy of like things because hierarchy of like things because exercises there's so much data there's exercises there's so much data there's exercises there's so much data there's huge metanalysis the effect size is very huge metanalysis the effect size is very huge metanalysis the effect size is very significant for mild to moderate significant for mild to moderate significant for mild to moderate depression it seems fairly equivalent depression it seems fairly equivalent depression it seems fairly equivalent to to medication to therapy I would say
1:14medication to therapy I would say medication to therapy I would say therapy probably has a bigger effect therapy probably has a bigger effect therapy probably has a bigger effect size when you're doing a big dose of size when you're doing a big dose of size when you're doing a big dose of therapy when you when you're doing 50 therapy when you when you're doing 50 therapy when you when you're doing 50 sessions of therapy you're getting 75% sessions of therapy you're getting 75% sessions of therapy you're getting 75% of people out in remission for moderate of people out in remission for moderate of people out in remission for moderate depression okay so maybe it's the depression okay so maybe it's the depression okay so maybe it's the norrine what is it less likely to be the norrine what is it less likely to be the norrine what is it less likely to be the mechanism because there's some other mechanism because there's some other mechanism because there's some other sort of ideas about how this might be sort of ideas about how this might be sort of ideas about how this might be improving things what what is less improving things what what is less improving things what what is less likely in your mind um I think it's less likely in your mind um I think it's less likely in your mind um I think it's less most likely the cognitions about you most likely the cognitions about you most likely the cognitions about you know how someone perceives the world know how someone perceives the world know how someone perceives the world around them like I mean to some extent around them like I mean to some extent around them like I mean to some extent you are changing the way that someone you are changing the way that someone you are changing the way that someone thinks um through like this acute thinks um through like this acute thinks um through like this acute stressor like you're capturing their stressor like you're capturing their stressor like you're capturing their retention collapsing it changing it from retention collapsing it changing it from retention collapsing it changing it from one state to another but I don't think one state to another but I don't think one state to another but I don't think it really changes a lot of the it really changes a lot of the it really changes a lot of the cognitions about uh about oneself cognitions about uh about oneself cognitions about uh about oneself potentially or like someone's propensity potentially or like someone's propensity potentially or like someone's propensity to misperceive a threat like in you see to misperceive a threat like in you see to misperceive a threat like in you see in ptst or more neg more negativity like
1:15in ptst or more neg more negativity like in ptst or more neg more negativity like you see with anxiety and depression so I you see with anxiety and depression so I you see with anxiety and depression so I I think those things need to be targeted I think those things need to be targeted I think those things need to be targeted through therapy and this is more so just through therapy and this is more so just through therapy and this is more so just something that can give someone a little something that can give someone a little something that can give someone a little bit of a boost to go uh throughout their bit of a boost to go uh throughout their bit of a boost to go uh throughout their day and like have a Snowball Effect day and like have a Snowball Effect day and like have a Snowball Effect potentially at least in cases of like potentially at least in cases of like potentially at least in cases of like mild to moderate depression mild to moderate depression mild to moderate depression potentially yeah I would say if you have potentially yeah I would say if you have potentially yeah I would say if you have deep deep deep rooted childhood attachment based rooted childhood attachment based rooted childhood attachment based traumatic events that have left to that traumatic events that have left to that traumatic events that have left to that that have led to beliefs about yourself that have led to beliefs about yourself that have led to beliefs about yourself beliefs about beliefs about beliefs about others you know that's not going to help others you know that's not going to help others you know that's not going to help this right right it's it's a it's it's a this right right it's it's a it's it's a this right right it's it's a it's it's a lot of therapy really it's like lot of therapy really it's like lot of therapy really it's like transference focused therapy transference focused therapy transference focused therapy mentalization based therapy you know mentalization based therapy you know mentalization based therapy you know these these types of therapies where you these these types of therapies where you these these types of therapies where you get into the deep interpersonal the get into the deep interpersonal the get into the deep interpersonal the depth work reflective function work on depth work reflective function work on depth work reflective function work on their reflective function Stu like that their reflective function Stu like that their reflective function Stu like that um initially I was excited about Brown um initially I was excited about Brown um initially I was excited about Brown fat until you dissuaded me of my
1:16fat until you dissuaded me of my fat until you dissuaded me of my excitement I was like I was in the cold excitement I was like I was in the cold excitement I was like I was in the cold plunge I was like thinking to myself my plunge I was like thinking to myself my plunge I was like thinking to myself my white fat is turning into Brown fat white fat is turning into Brown fat white fat is turning into Brown fat Brown fat essentially just says more Brown fat essentially just says more Brown fat essentially just says more mitochondria I was visualizing the the mitochondria I was visualizing the the mitochondria I was visualizing the the the white fat turning into Brown fat the white fat turning into Brown fat the white fat turning into Brown fat your A1C going down too my A1C going your A1C going down too my A1C going your A1C going down too my A1C going down I was so excited about this and down I was so excited about this and down I was so excited about this and then you kind of you popped the balloon then you kind of you popped the balloon then you kind of you popped the balloon of my excitement of my excitement of my excitement tell me about that yeah so Brown fat is tell me about that yeah so Brown fat is tell me about that yeah so Brown fat is this tissue like you mentioned that has this tissue like you mentioned that has this tissue like you mentioned that has more mitochondria in it and it's more mitochondria in it and it's more mitochondria in it and it's typically seen more so in infants typically seen more so in infants typically seen more so in infants because infants don't have the same uh because infants don't have the same uh because infants don't have the same uh like thermogenic effects they have a like thermogenic effects they have a like thermogenic effects they have a they have a larger surface area to they have a larger surface area to they have a larger surface area to volume ratio so they lose heat so they volume ratio so they lose heat so they volume ratio so they lose heat so they need more ways to produce heat in their need more ways to produce heat in their need more ways to produce heat in their own body uh so other small animals also own body uh so other small animals also own body uh so other small animals also have more Brown fat so if you're looking have more Brown fat so if you're looking have more Brown fat so if you're looking at a study of like mice and seeing like at a study of like mice and seeing like at a study of like mice and seeing like oh they have improved improved insulin oh they have improved improved insulin oh they have improved improved insulin sensitivity in mice well the mice also sensitivity in mice well the mice also sensitivity in mice well the mice also has the mouse also has a relatively
1:17has the mouse also has a relatively has the mouse also has a relatively higher percentage of brown fat so in in higher percentage of brown fat so in in higher percentage of brown fat so in in the mitochondria of brown fat there is the mitochondria of brown fat there is the mitochondria of brown fat there is an uncoupling protein that allows it to an uncoupling protein that allows it to an uncoupling protein that allows it to uncouple the electron gradient that uncouple the electron gradient that uncouple the electron gradient that allows it to generate heat essentially allows it to generate heat essentially allows it to generate heat essentially and and this is what allows for um you and and this is what allows for um you and and this is what allows for um you know babies and these small animals to know babies and these small animals to know babies and these small animals to to have heat when they otherwise are to have heat when they otherwise are to have heat when they otherwise are losing a lot of heat and people who are losing a lot of heat and people who are losing a lot of heat and people who are Advocates of cold exposure they claim Advocates of cold exposure they claim Advocates of cold exposure they claim that because you're activating the brown that because you're activating the brown that because you're activating the brown fat which there are some studies that fat which there are some studies that fat which there are some studies that have shown that brown fat activity does have shown that brown fat activity does have shown that brown fat activity does increase during cold exposure that increase during cold exposure that increase during cold exposure that you're going to be burning more calories you're going to be burning more calories you're going to be burning more calories because you're uncoupling the because you're uncoupling the because you're uncoupling the mitochondria and you're generating mitochondria and you're generating mitochondria and you're generating you're increasing the uptake of these you're increasing the uptake of these you're increasing the uptake of these mitochondria of of glucose and other mitochondria of of glucose and other mitochondria of of glucose and other nutrients so that you're burning more nutrients so that you're burning more nutrients so that you're burning more calories than you otherwise would from calories than you otherwise would from calories than you otherwise would from just sitting there and uh they think just sitting there and uh they think just sitting there and uh they think that if you increase your relative that if you increase your relative that if you increase your relative amount of Bron fat in your body through amount of Bron fat in your body through amount of Bron fat in your body through cold exposure then you can just burn
1:18cold exposure then you can just burn cold exposure then you can just burn more calories throughout the more calories throughout the more calories throughout the day um and a lot of this actually came day um and a lot of this actually came day um and a lot of this actually came from this uh this discussion of Bron fat from this uh this discussion of Bron fat from this uh this discussion of Bron fat recently it came from Dr silberg's recently it came from Dr silberg's recently it came from Dr silberg's initial study she compared cold water initial study she compared cold water initial study she compared cold water swimmers swimmers swimmers to uh controls that had about the same to uh controls that had about the same to uh controls that had about the same phys physical activity levels and they phys physical activity levels and they phys physical activity levels and they looked at the relative amounts of brown looked at the relative amounts of brown looked at the relative amounts of brown fat and the activation of brown fat when fat and the activation of brown fat when fat and the activation of brown fat when they were in a cooling condition they they were in a cooling condition they they were in a cooling condition they put a cooling blanket on them that like put a cooling blanket on them that like put a cooling blanket on them that like circulated cold water on them and what circulated cold water on them and what circulated cold water on them and what she found is that there is a 500 calorie she found is that there is a 500 calorie she found is that there is a 500 calorie difference in Daily resting energy difference in Daily resting energy difference in Daily resting energy expenditure and so this whole narrative expenditure and so this whole narrative expenditure and so this whole narrative about Brown fat allowing you to lose 500 about Brown fat allowing you to lose 500 about Brown fat allowing you to lose 500 calories like 500 calories every single calories like 500 calories every single calories like 500 calories every single day is a difference of one pound of fat day is a difference of one pound of fat day is a difference of one pound of fat like 3,500 calories equates to one pound like 3,500 calories equates to one pound like 3,500 calories equates to one pound of fat so this would mean you could be a of fat so this would mean you could be a of fat so this would mean you could be a lot leaner if you activate your brown
1:19lot leaner if you activate your brown lot leaner if you activate your brown fat but the problem one of the main fat but the problem one of the main fat but the problem one of the main problems with the study is that this 500 problems with the study is that this 500 problems with the study is that this 500 calorie difference it comes from an calorie difference it comes from an calorie difference it comes from an extrapolation of when they were doing extrapolation of when they were doing extrapolation of when they were doing the cold exposure so Bron fats only the cold exposure so Bron fats only the cold exposure so Bron fats only going to be active when you're cold so going to be active when you're cold so going to be active when you're cold so it's more active in the winter it's more it's more active in the winter it's more it's more active in the winter it's more prevalent in the winter and people who prevalent in the winter and people who prevalent in the winter and people who have less body fat because they don't have less body fat because they don't have less body fat because they don't have as much fat to insulate them so in have as much fat to insulate them so in have as much fat to insulate them so in this study the Cold Water Swimming group this study the Cold Water Swimming group this study the Cold Water Swimming group had less body fat overall and they had a had less body fat overall and they had a had less body fat overall and they had a more higher active Brown fat during this more higher active Brown fat during this more higher active Brown fat during this 10minute session or 30 minute session of 10minute session or 30 minute session of 10minute session or 30 minute session of cooling and what they found is that cooling and what they found is that cooling and what they found is that equated to a 10 calorie difference in equated to a 10 calorie difference in equated to a 10 calorie difference in resting energy expenditure during that resting energy expenditure during that resting energy expenditure during that 30 minutes so when you extrapolate that 30 minutes so when you extrapolate that 30 minutes so when you extrapolate that 10 calorie difference in 30 minutes to 10 calorie difference in 30 minutes to 10 calorie difference in 30 minutes to 24 hours throughout the day is what is 24 hours throughout the day is what is 24 hours throughout the day is what is what they did that's 480 calories or what they did that's 480 calories or what they did that's 480 calories or about 500 calories throughout the entire about 500 calories throughout the entire about 500 calories throughout the entire day and that's not at all the the day and that's not at all the the day and that's not at all the the difference in energy expenditure between
1:20difference in energy expenditure between difference in energy expenditure between the groups you broke my heart Liam I was the groups you broke my heart Liam I was the groups you broke my heart Liam I was imagining myself burning 500 more imagining myself burning 500 more imagining myself burning 500 more calories per day right I mean it is just calories per day right I mean it is just calories per day right I mean it is just kind of absurd like how much Brown fat kind of absurd like how much Brown fat kind of absurd like how much Brown fat is actually on the average person and in is actually on the average person and in is actually on the average person and in one and one of these participants in the one and one of these participants in the one and one of these participants in the cold water swimming group they didn't cold water swimming group they didn't cold water swimming group they didn't have brown fat the swimmer did not have have brown fat the swimmer did not have have brown fat the swimmer did not have brown fat so that they got rid of the brown fat so that they got rid of the brown fat so that they got rid of the subject so Brown fat is very subject so Brown fat is very subject so Brown fat is very like dependent on the individual a lot like dependent on the individual a lot like dependent on the individual a lot of is genetic and even still it's only of is genetic and even still it's only of is genetic and even still it's only 50 to 300 grams so up to a pound at most 50 to 300 grams so up to a pound at most 50 to 300 grams so up to a pound at most on the average person and to think that on the average person and to think that on the average person and to think that one pound of tissue can burn that much one pound of tissue can burn that much one pound of tissue can burn that much calories is insane especially when you calories is insane especially when you calories is insane especially when you compare it to the brain which the brain compare it to the brain which the brain compare it to the brain which the brain takes up probably about 20% of um your takes up probably about 20% of um your takes up probably about 20% of um your body's total calories your basil body's total calories your basil body's total calories your basil metabolic rate you compare that to metabolic rate you compare that to metabolic rate you compare that to muscle you can have pounds of muscle muscle you can have pounds of muscle muscle you can have pounds of muscle that take up um so much glucose like that take up um so much glucose like that take up um so much glucose like that's a huge driver of your metabolism
1:21that's a huge driver of your metabolism that's a huge driver of your metabolism and then you think that one pound of and then you think that one pound of and then you think that one pound of tissue just because it has like more tissue just because it has like more tissue just because it has like more mitochondria it it's not going to really mitochondria it it's not going to really mitochondria it it's not going to really change the the needle on anything yeah I change the the needle on anything yeah I change the the needle on anything yeah I I think this is where I come back I think this is where I come back I think this is where I come back to you know if you want to be to you know if you want to be to you know if you want to be metabolically healthy the priority is metabolically healthy the priority is metabolically healthy the priority is probably strength training probably strength training probably strength training cardio I I can't see that cardio I I can't see that cardio I I can't see that um being a lose situation for um being a lose situation for um being a lose situation for someone right yeah yeah you get the the someone right yeah yeah you get the the someone right yeah yeah you get the the metabolic benefits the the health metabolic benefits the the health metabolic benefits the the health benefits mood benefits I mean the other benefits mood benefits I mean the other benefits mood benefits I mean the other thing is like 500 CS a day if you are thing is like 500 CS a day if you are thing is like 500 CS a day if you are cold all day cold all day cold all day long like no one is in a cold situation long like no one is in a cold situation long like no one is in a cold situation all day long right yeah and I think one all day long right yeah and I think one all day long right yeah and I think one one of the interesting things like even one of the interesting things like even one of the interesting things like even if you assume that you're really if you assume that you're really if you assume that you're really maximally uncoupling the mitochondria maximally uncoupling the mitochondria maximally uncoupling the mitochondria the brown fat say it's working all day
1:22the brown fat say it's working all day the brown fat say it's working all day um you're not going to lose that much um you're not going to lose that much um you're not going to lose that much weight because there's one um fat loss weight because there's one um fat loss weight because there's one um fat loss molecule that have been studied since molecule that have been studied since molecule that have been studied since the 20th century it's called Uh the 20th century it's called Uh the 20th century it's called Uh dnp and even some supplements have it dnp and even some supplements have it dnp and even some supplements have it today and some uh bodybuilders use it today and some uh bodybuilders use it today and some uh bodybuilders use it this uncouples the mitochondria like this uncouples the mitochondria like this uncouples the mitochondria like you'd see in brown fat but it uncouples you'd see in brown fat but it uncouples you'd see in brown fat but it uncouples it in all the tissues in the body as so it in all the tissues in the body as so it in all the tissues in the body as so even even even then this leads to a weight loss of then this leads to a weight loss of then this leads to a weight loss of about one pound per about one pound per about one pound per week from like a relatively moderate week from like a relatively moderate week from like a relatively moderate dose so that's assuming so comparing dose so that's assuming so comparing dose so that's assuming so comparing that to to Brown fat um you know they that to to Brown fat um you know they that to to Brown fat um you know they assuming that the brown fed is that assuming that the brown fed is that assuming that the brown fed is that metoc after it's not the case yeah and I metoc after it's not the case yeah and I metoc after it's not the case yeah and I think like if you want to think about think like if you want to think about think like if you want to think about like insulin glucose Health like insulin glucose Health like insulin glucose Health getting getting glucose from your meal getting getting glucose from your meal getting getting glucose from your meal into your muscles into your muscles into your muscles the best thing is to go for a walk to do the best thing is to go for a walk to do the best thing is to go for a walk to do a little bit of exercise after every a little bit of exercise after every a little bit of exercise after every meal or before every meal for about 5 to
1:23meal or before every meal for about 5 to meal or before every meal for about 5 to 10 minutes I mean that has a huge 10 minutes I mean that has a huge 10 minutes I mean that has a huge impact and I would say much better so me impact and I would say much better so me impact and I would say much better so me and the kids will go jump on the and the kids will go jump on the and the kids will go jump on the trampoline for half an hour after like trampoline for half an hour after like trampoline for half an hour after like dinner and I feel like that's probably a dinner and I feel like that's probably a dinner and I feel like that's probably a much bigger win despite me wanting this much bigger win despite me wanting this much bigger win despite me wanting this to be a thing it sounds like it'd be to be a thing it sounds like it'd be to be a thing it sounds like it'd be nice to just sit there for 2 minutes and nice to just sit there for 2 minutes and nice to just sit there for 2 minutes and kind of rough out or sit out the cold kind of rough out or sit out the cold kind of rough out or sit out the cold and then have like a lose a pound a week and then have like a lose a pound a week and then have like a lose a pound a week that would be awesome but it's never that would be awesome but it's never that would be awesome but it's never that easy okay so cognitive performance that easy okay so cognitive performance that easy okay so cognitive performance how is cognitive performance Changed by how is cognitive performance Changed by how is cognitive performance Changed by Cold exposure yeah this um this Cold exposure yeah this um this Cold exposure yeah this um this systematic review was pretty surprising systematic review was pretty surprising systematic review was pretty surprising to me they looked at 18 studies um to me they looked at 18 studies um to me they looked at 18 studies um comprised of eight studies that looked comprised of eight studies that looked comprised of eight studies that looked at the effects of cold air exposure so at the effects of cold air exposure so at the effects of cold air exposure so not that convincing uh and then also 10 not that convincing uh and then also 10 not that convincing uh and then also 10 studies that looked at cold water studies that looked at cold water studies that looked at cold water immersion immersion immersion and they looked at different cognitive and they looked at different cognitive and they looked at different cognitive performance measures like working memory performance measures like working memory performance measures like working memory uh executive memory um processing speed
1:24uh executive memory um processing speed uh executive memory um processing speed and they saw that in 15 out of the 18 and they saw that in 15 out of the 18 and they saw that in 15 out of the 18 experimental studies that cold exposure experimental studies that cold exposure experimental studies that cold exposure within the minutes to hours after within the minutes to hours after within the minutes to hours after actually reduced processing speed and actually reduced processing speed and actually reduced processing speed and executive function um and then working executive function um and then working executive function um and then working memory and attention seemed to it was memory and attention seemed to it was memory and attention seemed to it was dependent on the study but some showed dependent on the study but some showed dependent on the study but some showed deficits some showed improvements so in deficits some showed improvements so in deficits some showed improvements so in in fact like and and this was kind of my in fact like and and this was kind of my in fact like and and this was kind of my experience too the the couple times that experience too the the couple times that experience too the the couple times that I have done cold exposure is that I I I have done cold exposure is that I I I have done cold exposure is that I I did feel a little bit did feel a little bit did feel a little bit slower um and I did feel like I was slower um and I did feel like I was slower um and I did feel like I was losing my train of thought a little bit losing my train of thought a little bit losing my train of thought a little bit more and but I think the main thing from more and but I think the main thing from more and but I think the main thing from this study is that a lot of these people this study is that a lot of these people this study is that a lot of these people were naive to cold exposure uh so I were naive to cold exposure uh so I were naive to cold exposure uh so I think over time you might get some some think over time you might get some some think over time you might get some some more benefits to it as your stress more benefits to it as your stress more benefits to it as your stress response kind of dampens a little bit response kind of dampens a little bit response kind of dampens a little bit you get less cortisol um maybe less nor you get less cortisol um maybe less nor you get less cortisol um maybe less nor because we know the these uh the stress because we know the these uh the stress because we know the these uh the stress response is not supposed to like help
1:25response is not supposed to like help response is not supposed to like help you increase your executive functioning you increase your executive functioning you increase your executive functioning so being more stressed might actually so being more stressed might actually so being more stressed might actually reduce some markers of cognitive reduce some markers of cognitive reduce some markers of cognitive performance like you see in the in these performance like you see in the in these performance like you see in the in these studies I think I think it may be person studies I think I think it may be person studies I think I think it may be person specific you know and also I would specific you know and also I would specific you know and also I would say when you look at like atom otine say when you look at like atom otine say when you look at like atom otine Norine efford reuptake Norine efford reuptake Norine efford reuptake inhibitor these are given for 3 to four inhibitor these are given for 3 to four inhibitor these are given for 3 to four weeks before there's an improvement so weeks before there's an improvement so weeks before there's an improvement so there could also be epigenetic phenomena there could also be epigenetic phenomena there could also be epigenetic phenomena that hasn't fully been that hasn't fully been that hasn't fully been studied so I would say more research studied so I would say more research studied so I would say more research needed but for someone like myself who needed but for someone like myself who needed but for someone like myself who says Hey when if I'm in a dissociated says Hey when if I'm in a dissociated says Hey when if I'm in a dissociated state it really takes me out of it state it really takes me out of it state it really takes me out of it nicely uh you know whereas some of my nicely uh you know whereas some of my nicely uh you know whereas some of my patients maybe it makes it worse so it's patients maybe it makes it worse so it's patients maybe it makes it worse so it's kind of like you have to kind of like you have to kind of like you have to gauge the person right yeah any and gauge the person right yeah any and gauge the person right yeah any and let's talk about safety cautions um risk let's talk about safety cautions um risk let's talk about safety cautions um risk of arhythmia because that high of arhythmia because that high of arhythmia because that high sympathetic parasympathetic
1:26sympathetic parasympathetic sympathetic parasympathetic activation activation activation um I would say you know even this um I would say you know even this um I would say you know even this morning when I got in I could feel like morning when I got in I could feel like morning when I got in I could feel like a couple a couple a couple palpitations you know so maybe if they palpitations you know so maybe if they palpitations you know so maybe if they are at risk for apib or they've had a are at risk for apib or they've had a are at risk for apib or they've had a history of arhythmia be a little bit history of arhythmia be a little bit history of arhythmia be a little bit more more cautious um yeah any thoughts on that cautious um yeah any thoughts on that cautious um yeah any thoughts on that yeah so there there's like two yeah so there there's like two yeah so there there's like two mechanisms that that people think that mechanisms that that people think that mechanisms that that people think that uh cold exposure might cause arrhythmias uh cold exposure might cause arrhythmias uh cold exposure might cause arrhythmias and that's like you mentioned the and that's like you mentioned the and that's like you mentioned the concurrent parasympathetic and concurrent parasympathetic and concurrent parasympathetic and sympathetic sympathetic sympathetic activation um and you only get really activation um and you only get really activation um and you only get really the parasympathetic if you get the vagus the parasympathetic if you get the vagus the parasympathetic if you get the vagus nerve submerged so that's submerging nerve submerged so that's submerging nerve submerged so that's submerging your neck and your face and that's your neck and your face and that's your neck and your face and that's called the dive response and this is called the dive response and this is called the dive response and this is often used in patients with super often used in patients with super often used in patients with super ventricular teic cardias they're told to ventricular teic cardias they're told to ventricular teic cardias they're told to put their face in really cold water to put their face in really cold water to put their face in really cold water to try to get the Vegas to to calm the the try to get the Vegas to to calm the the try to get the Vegas to to calm the the heart so the concurrent activation of heart so the concurrent activation of heart so the concurrent activation of that might be some effect and then also
1:27that might be some effect and then also that might be some effect and then also um the arhythmia might might be due to um the arhythmia might might be due to um the arhythmia might might be due to hypothermia as well uh so hypothermia as well uh so hypothermia as well uh so hypothermia it can cause rhythmia and hypothermia it can cause rhythmia and hypothermia it can cause rhythmia and this is most dangerous with the after this is most dangerous with the after this is most dangerous with the after drop and so the after drop is when drop and so the after drop is when drop and so the after drop is when you're in the cold for so long that the you're in the cold for so long that the you're in the cold for so long that the blood in your arms and legs because blood in your arms and legs because blood in your arms and legs because they're Vasa constricted it kind of pool they're Vasa constricted it kind of pool they're Vasa constricted it kind of pool in your arms and legs become really in your arms and legs become really in your arms and legs become really really cold and you know your your core really cold and you know your your core really cold and you know your your core body temperature uh will continue to body temperature uh will continue to body temperature uh will continue to drop after you get out because this drop after you get out because this drop after you get out because this Blood after after you get out there's Blood after after you get out there's Blood after after you get out there's less phas of constriction the blood from less phas of constriction the blood from less phas of constriction the blood from your arms and legs the cold blood can your arms and legs the cold blood can your arms and legs the cold blood can mix with your core blood that has been mix with your core blood that has been mix with your core blood that has been warmed and that can decrease your core warmed and that can decrease your core warmed and that can decrease your core body temperature further and then lead body temperature further and then lead body temperature further and then lead to hypothermia and that can lead to to hypothermia and that can lead to to hypothermia and that can lead to arhythmia as well so in any patient who arhythmia as well so in any patient who arhythmia as well so in any patient who has cardiovascular has cardiovascular has cardiovascular disease whether that's esic heart disease whether that's esic heart disease whether that's esic heart disease um heart failure or things like
1:28disease um heart failure or things like disease um heart failure or things like Long QT syndrome they're at high risk Long QT syndrome they're at high risk Long QT syndrome they're at high risk for arrhythmias and maybe es schic for arrhythmias and maybe es schic for arrhythmias and maybe es schic events and then anyone who's in the cold events and then anyone who's in the cold events and then anyone who's in the cold for so long uh they're also at risk for for so long uh they're also at risk for for so long uh they're also at risk for arhythmia interesting yeah I um I would arhythmia interesting yeah I um I would arhythmia interesting yeah I um I would say that being said in that Finland say that being said in that Finland say that being said in that Finland cohort when they followed people for for cohort when they followed people for for cohort when they followed people for for years who were using the sauna and maybe years who were using the sauna and maybe years who were using the sauna and maybe finishing with something cold finishing with something cold finishing with something cold um these people at lower risk of heart um these people at lower risk of heart um these people at lower risk of heart disease lower risk of stroke lower risk disease lower risk of stroke lower risk disease lower risk of stroke lower risk of all cause mortality so you have to of all cause mortality so you have to of all cause mortality so you have to you have to know the risks but also the you have to know the risks but also the you have to know the risks but also the benefits okay right I think one like benefits okay right I think one like benefits okay right I think one like main difference about cold exposure main difference about cold exposure main difference about cold exposure compared to exercise and sauna 2 is that compared to exercise and sauna 2 is that compared to exercise and sauna 2 is that in exercise and sauna it's a gradual in exercise and sauna it's a gradual in exercise and sauna it's a gradual ramping up of your your sympathetic ramping up of your your sympathetic ramping up of your your sympathetic nervous system so your heart rate is nervous system so your heart rate is nervous system so your heart rate is slowly ramping up whereas with cold it's slowly ramping up whereas with cold it's slowly ramping up whereas with cold it's all of a sudden like it's a it's a shock
1:29all of a sudden like it's a it's a shock all of a sudden like it's a it's a shock so it is a little bit of a different so it is a little bit of a different so it is a little bit of a different mechanism but if you're a healthy person mechanism but if you're a healthy person mechanism but if you're a healthy person who does not have any uh arrhythmias or who does not have any uh arrhythmias or who does not have any uh arrhythmias or any heart disease and it I think it any heart disease and it I think it any heart disease and it I think it probably is safe as long as you have probably is safe as long as you have probably is safe as long as you have someone there with you and you're not someone there with you and you're not someone there with you and you're not going from um never having done cold going from um never having done cold going from um never having done cold exposure to ice cold water then maybe I exposure to ice cold water then maybe I exposure to ice cold water then maybe I I think it it's probably safe to do so I think it it's probably safe to do so I think it it's probably safe to do so but again consult your doctor consult but again consult your doctor consult but again consult your doctor consult your doctor yes this is not medical your doctor yes this is not medical your doctor yes this is not medical advice this is medical this this is advice this is medical this this is advice this is medical this this is information for informational purposes information for informational purposes information for informational purposes only exactly um I actually uh will not only exactly um I actually uh will not only exactly um I actually uh will not go underwater with my head for more than go underwater with my head for more than go underwater with my head for more than like 10 seconds if I'm like 10 seconds if I'm like 10 seconds if I'm alone um some people may but I alone um some people may but I alone um some people may but I personally that's where like I'm like uh personally that's where like I'm like uh personally that's where like I'm like uh I'm gonna wait to do this with a friend I'm gonna wait to do this with a friend I'm gonna wait to do this with a friend right right right um Okay so so recommendations in future um Okay so so recommendations in future um Okay so so recommendations in future Direction what I was thinking about is Direction what I was thinking about is Direction what I was thinking about is imagine someone listening to this and imagine someone listening to this and imagine someone listening to this and they're like you know I want to do a
1:30they're like you know I want to do a they're like you know I want to do a randomized control randomized control randomized control trial um feel free to reach out to me or trial um feel free to reach out to me or trial um feel free to reach out to me or Liam so we can consult with you so we Liam so we can consult with you so we Liam so we can consult with you so we can talk about it I think it's a great can talk about it I think it's a great can talk about it I think it's a great idea I think someone young who's idea I think someone young who's idea I think someone young who's listening to this should consider doing listening to this should consider doing listening to this should consider doing it um we even talking about like man I it um we even talking about like man I it um we even talking about like man I would do a gofund me for that I want to would do a gofund me for that I want to would do a gofund me for that I want to see a really nice randomized control see a really nice randomized control see a really nice randomized control trial on this like trial on this like trial on this like multi-site let's go Liam was even multi-site let's go Liam was even multi-site let's go Liam was even thinking about doing it for a second I thinking about doing it for a second I thinking about doing it for a second I mean yeah if I can get funding I think mean yeah if I can get funding I think mean yeah if I can get funding I think that's probably the hardest part um but that's probably the hardest part um but that's probably the hardest part um but I know there are a lot of podcasters who I know there are a lot of podcasters who I know there are a lot of podcasters who do philanthropic uh work for like mental do philanthropic uh work for like mental do philanthropic uh work for like mental health treatments so I think this could health treatments so I think this could health treatments so I think this could be if someone is really interested in be if someone is really interested in be if someone is really interested in that they could try to search out that they could try to search out that they could try to search out through those Avenues um because this is through those Avenues um because this is through those Avenues um because this is really something that the benefit to really something that the benefit to really something that the benefit to harm ratio is I think really positive harm ratio is I think really positive harm ratio is I think really positive like it could be a really good benefit like it could be a really good benefit like it could be a really good benefit at a low cost a low harm to someone so I at a low cost a low harm to someone so I at a low cost a low harm to someone so I think it's something that a lot of
1:31think it's something that a lot of think it's something that a lot of people could use on the regular basis I people could use on the regular basis I people could use on the regular basis I think for future randomized control think for future randomized control think for future randomized control trials my thought would be somewhere trials my thought would be somewhere trials my thought would be somewhere around 45 degrees Fahrenheit 3 to five around 45 degrees Fahrenheit 3 to five around 45 degrees Fahrenheit 3 to five minutes maybe start at to build it minutes maybe start at to build it minutes maybe start at to build it up um and then have a control group up um and then have a control group up um and then have a control group which is probably more like 75° so it which is probably more like 75° so it which is probably more like 75° so it still feels maybe cold and you have to still feels maybe cold and you have to still feels maybe cold and you have to control for any group exposure so if you control for any group exposure so if you control for any group exposure so if you have a group doing it together you know have a group doing it together you know have a group doing it together you know you have to have a group in both you have to have a group in both you have to have a group in both group you have to have two groups doing group you have to have two groups doing group you have to have two groups doing it both at the same time you can't just it both at the same time you can't just it both at the same time you can't just have a weight lless control so you have have a weight lless control so you have have a weight lless control so you have that group event control for I think I that group event control for I think I that group event control for I think I would do the cold plunge rather than would do the cold plunge rather than would do the cold plunge rather than cold swimming because you it would be cold swimming because you it would be cold swimming because you it would be hard to control for the exercise aspect hard to control for the exercise aspect hard to control for the exercise aspect yeah unless you would have them swim in yeah unless you would have them swim in yeah unless you would have them swim in a normal pool which I think is also a normal pool which I think is also a normal pool which I think is also possible so if you're doing um some cold possible so if you're doing um some cold possible so if you're doing um some cold water swimming water swimming water swimming to have to have to have like two different environments one like two different environments one like two different environments one being a normal pool for swimming one
1:32being a normal pool for swimming one being a normal pool for swimming one being a being a being a um you know a cold pool type of um you know a cold pool type of um you know a cold pool type of thing so those are some of my thoughts thing so those are some of my thoughts thing so those are some of my thoughts right off the bat and then I also want right off the bat and then I also want right off the bat and then I also want to I would want to do it for like six to to I would want to do it for like six to to I would want to do it for like six to eight weeks you eight weeks you eight weeks you know and maybe maybe then you get to see know and maybe maybe then you get to see know and maybe maybe then you get to see the kind of the epigenetic phenomenon the kind of the epigenetic phenomenon the kind of the epigenetic phenomenon that would happen right you see how they that would happen right you see how they that would happen right you see how they change uh in response to the cold by change uh in response to the cold by change uh in response to the cold by habituating to it because like I said habituating to it because like I said habituating to it because like I said the cognitive effects they might go away the cognitive effects they might go away the cognitive effects they might go away after a while like the decreases in after a while like the decreases in after a while like the decreases in working memory performance and working memory performance and working memory performance and everything I'd also do more moderate everything I'd also do more moderate everything I'd also do more moderate depression rather than just mild not depression rather than just mild not depression rather than just mild not just like a very low level of just like a very low level of just like a very low level of depression or moderate to depression or moderate to depression or moderate to severe yeah I think it would be cool to severe yeah I think it would be cool to severe yeah I think it would be cool to also measure like norrine also measure like norrine also measure like norrine dopamine the monoamines cortisol and dopamine the monoamines cortisol and dopamine the monoamines cortisol and then also measures of uh like then also measures of uh like then also measures of uh like self-efficacy and seeing if that has any self-efficacy and seeing if that has any self-efficacy and seeing if that has any moderating effects on the treatment
1:33moderating effects on the treatment moderating effects on the treatment response like if someone believes that response like if someone believes that response like if someone believes that the practice is B beneficial for them or the practice is B beneficial for them or the practice is B beneficial for them or you know if it helps them get through you know if it helps them get through you know if it helps them get through their day then maybe that can explain their day then maybe that can explain their day then maybe that can explain some of the anti-depressive effects of some of the anti-depressive effects of some of the anti-depressive effects of it yep um I go back to the the study it yep um I go back to the the study it yep um I go back to the the study that they did where there was a drop in that they did where there was a drop in that they did where there was a drop in that Beck depression inventory that was that Beck depression inventory that was that Beck depression inventory that was significant even in the first significant even in the first significant even in the first week kind of plateaued out with the week kind of plateaued out with the week kind of plateaued out with the other group but that first drop was wow other group but that first drop was wow other group but that first drop was wow that's very that's very that's very interesting um so maybe as an adjunct interesting um so maybe as an adjunct interesting um so maybe as an adjunct for overall treatment just to get for overall treatment just to get for overall treatment just to get someone started on depression but this someone started on depression but this someone started on depression but this is it's so early and we only have one is it's so early and we only have one is it's so early and we only have one study it's like before I recommend study it's like before I recommend study it's like before I recommend everyone to do something on this podcast everyone to do something on this podcast everyone to do something on this podcast I try to make sure it's I try to make sure it's I try to make sure it's like really studied out otherwise you like really studied out otherwise you like really studied out otherwise you know it's like know it's like know it's like premature premature over excitement it's premature premature over excitement it's premature premature over excitement it's not what I'm about so exactly I mean as not what I'm about so exactly I mean as not what I'm about so exactly I mean as as clinicians we have to like really
1:34as clinicians we have to like really as clinicians we have to like really make sure that what we're recommending make sure that what we're recommending make sure that what we're recommending has gone through the rounds and research has gone through the rounds and research has gone through the rounds and research and and shown some benefit um before we and and shown some benefit um before we and and shown some benefit um before we can actually claim it because a lot of can actually claim it because a lot of can actually claim it because a lot of the podcasters like they don't have that the podcasters like they don't have that the podcasters like they don't have that that responsibility to the patients uh that responsibility to the patients uh that responsibility to the patients uh they can pretty much just say whatever they can pretty much just say whatever they can pretty much just say whatever they want as long as it Garners they want as long as it Garners they want as long as it Garners attention and some traction then they're attention and some traction then they're attention and some traction then they're going to they're going to have some going to they're going to have some going to they're going to have some benefit to themselves so yeah as benefit to themselves so yeah as benefit to themselves so yeah as clinicians we have a higher clinicians we have a higher clinicians we have a higher responsibility for our patients yeah responsibility for our patients yeah responsibility for our patients yeah there was a a lot of people that there was a a lot of people that there was a a lot of people that recently came out with this statistic recently came out with this statistic recently came out with this statistic that exercise is one and a half times that exercise is one and a half times that exercise is one and a half times better than therapy and medications and better than therapy and medications and better than therapy and medications and it's like no that's not what the study it's like no that's not what the study it's like no that's not what the study said it is very said it is very said it is very catchy you know are we looking at severe catchy you know are we looking at severe catchy you know are we looking at severe depression no are we looking at you know depression no are we looking at you know depression no are we looking at you know this same level of control groups no so this same level of control groups no so this same level of control groups no so yeah it's we have to be careful because
1:35yeah it's we have to be careful because yeah it's we have to be careful because then you know the public starts to get then you know the public starts to get then you know the public starts to get kind of like oh don't go to therapy go kind of like oh don't go to therapy go kind of like oh don't go to therapy go coal plune like that would be a coal plune like that would be a coal plune like that would be a nightmare if that's your takeaway from nightmare if that's your takeaway from nightmare if that's your takeaway from this like oh my gosh like this like oh my gosh like this like oh my gosh like please please go to therapy please do please please go to therapy please do please please go to therapy please do the hard the hard the hard work you know if you have severe work you know if you have severe work you know if you have severe depression you may need medication and depression you may need medication and depression you may need medication and therapy and you may need a bunch of therapy and you may need a bunch of therapy and you may need a bunch of other things as well like exercise and other things as well like exercise and other things as well like exercise and getting rid of processed foods that's getting rid of processed foods that's getting rid of processed foods that's helpful and maybe try this sure but it's helpful and maybe try this sure but it's helpful and maybe try this sure but it's like I don't think there's only one type like I don't think there's only one type like I don't think there's only one type of treatment that's going to supersede of treatment that's going to supersede of treatment that's going to supersede things that we know work and know we things that we know work and know we things that we know work and know we know work really well so all right sir know work really well so all right sir know work really well so all right sir thank you for coming on Liam Browning thank you for coming on Liam Browning thank you for coming on Liam Browning this is amazing we appreciate you uh the this is amazing we appreciate you uh the this is amazing we appreciate you uh the handout is on Psychiatry podcast.com you handout is on Psychiatry podcast.com you handout is on Psychiatry podcast.com you can get CME Contin medical education for can get CME Contin medical education for can get CME Contin medical education for this um and this um and this um and uh yeah I'm excited to
1:36uh yeah I'm excited to uh yeah I'm excited to uh have you on in the future maybe we'll uh have you on in the future maybe we'll uh have you on in the future maybe we'll do an episode on dating and the do an episode on dating and the do an episode on dating and the difficulties of dating in this modern difficulties of dating in this modern difficulties of dating in this modern time people what would you like Liam to time people what would you like Liam to time people what would you like Liam to dive into next please let me know yeah dive into next please let me know yeah dive into next please let me know yeah I'm open for I'm open for I'm open for anything yeah thanks for having me back anything yeah thanks for having me back anything yeah thanks for having me back on and again if someone has any ideas on on and again if someone has any ideas on on and again if someone has any ideas on how how we can initiate a trial for cold how how we can initiate a trial for cold how how we can initiate a trial for cold immersion I think that would be awesome immersion I think that would be awesome immersion I think that would be awesome uh to get connected and um you know see uh to get connected and um you know see uh to get connected and um you know see if we can get something going awesome if we can get something going awesome if we can get something going awesome all right we'll go from there thanks