Harnessing the Power of Cold and Heat: A Guide to Enhanced Health and Longevity - Full Transcript

00:00your rest and digest system which is your rest and digest system which is your parasym nervous system so the the your parasym nervous system so the the your parasym nervous system so the the other branch of your autonomous nervous other branch of your autonomous nervous other branch of your autonomous nervous system and you get that activation system and you get that activation system and you get that activation because you submerge into cold water and because you submerge into cold water and because you submerge into cold water and when you do that you have an activation when you do that you have an activation when you do that you have an activation of your diving response and uh that's of your diving response and uh that's of your diving response and uh that's going to slow down the you can say the going to slow down the you can say the going to slow down the you can say the the consumption of oxygen also in your the consumption of oxygen also in your the consumption of oxygen also in your body and that's going to slow down your body and that's going to slow down your body and that's going to slow down your heart rate could I pause you on this heart rate could I pause you on this heart rate could I pause you on this because I've heard this before that when because I've heard this before that when because I've heard this before that when we get into cold water or immersion we we get into cold water or immersion we we get into cold water or immersion we get this sympathetic autonomic response get this sympathetic autonomic response get this sympathetic autonomic response so increase blood pressure increased so increase blood pressure increased so increase blood pressure increased heart rate release of neopine phrine heart rate release of neopine phrine heart rate release of neopine phrine from the locus culus in the brain from the locus culus in the brain from the locus culus in the brain release of um adrenaline dopamine release of um adrenaline dopamine release of um adrenaline dopamine adrenaline from the from the adrenals adrenaline from the from the adrenals adrenaline from the from the adrenals dopamine presumably within the dopamine presumably within the dopamine presumably within the brain but that the parasympathetic brain but that the parasympathetic brain but that the parasympathetic response is activated when we put our response is activated when we put our response is activated when we put our face into cold water or go underwater face into cold water or go underwater face into cold water or go underwater and that's a calming relaxation response and that's a calming relaxation response and that's a calming relaxation response so so this brings us back to I don't

01:00so so this brings us back to I don't so so this brings us back to I don't want to take us off track from you want to take us off track from you want to take us off track from you describing the study but this brings us describing the study but this brings us describing the study but this brings us back to the first question which is if I back to the first question which is if I back to the first question which is if I go completely underwater for a moment go completely underwater for a moment go completely underwater for a moment when I start my cold plunge does that when I start my cold plunge does that when I start my cold plunge does that change the physiological outcome as change the physiological outcome as change the physiological outcome as compared to if I just submerge myself up compared to if I just submerge myself up compared to if I just submerge myself up to the neck and that and actually to the neck and that and actually to the neck and that and actually nowadays there's seems to be a little nowadays there's seems to be a little nowadays there's seems to be a little bit of a movement online of people bit of a movement online of people bit of a movement online of people putting a bowl of ice water on their putting a bowl of ice water on their putting a bowl of ice water on their countertop and submerging their face countertop and submerging their face countertop and submerging their face into it did you see this this is start into it did you see this this is start into it did you see this this is start I've seen more and more posts about this I've seen more and more posts about this I've seen more and more posts about this so um could you just touch on the what so um could you just touch on the what so um could you just touch on the what the dive reflex is and why it act the dive reflex is and why it act the dive reflex is and why it act perhaps activates the parasympathetic perhaps activates the parasympathetic perhaps activates the parasympathetic response this calming response well so response this calming response well so response this calming response well so the diving reflex is activated when you the diving reflex is activated when you the diving reflex is activated when you submerge into coold water um even just submerge into coold water um even just submerge into coold water um even just to the neck yeah or I thought you had to to the neck yeah or I thought you had to to the neck yeah or I thought you had to get your face under I'm not I'm not get your face under I'm not I'm not get your face under I'm not I'm not arguing different you're the expert I arguing different you're the expert I arguing different you're the expert I just want to yeah I haven't really I just want to yeah I haven't really I just want to yeah I haven't really I haven't read that I've just seen that haven't read that I've just seen that haven't read that I've just seen that you can activate your uh diving response you can activate your uh diving response you can activate your uh diving response as soon as you go underw with your body as soon as you go underw with your body as soon as you go underw with your body um so you don't have to do it with your

02:00um so you don't have to do it with your um so you don't have to do it with your face as far as I understand I could I face as far as I understand I could I face as far as I understand I could I could be wrong though um yeah so when could be wrong though um yeah so when could be wrong though um yeah so when when you activate your uh diving when you activate your uh diving when you activate your uh diving response you will slow down your um your response you will slow down your um your response you will slow down your um your oxygen consumption in your body and that oxygen consumption in your body and that oxygen consumption in your body and that is because the body tries to preserve um is because the body tries to preserve um is because the body tries to preserve um oxygen so you will not get hypothermic oxygen so you will not get hypothermic oxygen so you will not get hypothermic too fast so it's kind of like a survival too fast so it's kind of like a survival too fast so it's kind of like a survival system in your body um so this survival system in your body um so this survival system in your body um so this survival system is very um important for us of system is very um important for us of system is very um important for us of course so that will be activated and uh course so that will be activated and uh course so that will be activated and uh because of that you will after maybe one because of that you will after maybe one because of that you will after maybe one minute or so I'm I can't be precise on minute or so I'm I can't be precise on minute or so I'm I can't be precise on that because I maybe also varies a bit that because I maybe also varies a bit that because I maybe also varies a bit in in humans so one to two minutes you in in humans so one to two minutes you in in humans so one to two minutes you will have full activation of the will have full activation of the will have full activation of the sympathetic nervous system but also the sympathetic nervous system but also the sympathetic nervous system but also the Paras sympatic nervous system um and Paras sympatic nervous system um and Paras sympatic nervous system um and that's going to activate for example that's going to activate for example that's going to activate for example something like serotonin in your brain something like serotonin in your brain something like serotonin in your brain which is like also good for mental which is like also good for mental which is like also good for mental balance and people feeling in mental balance and people feeling in mental balance and people feeling in mental balance afterwards they after they go up balance afterwards they after they go up balance afterwards they after they go up so that is like measured on

03:00so that is like measured on so that is like measured on a questionnaires and also measured like a questionnaires and also measured like a questionnaires and also measured like on anecdotes of course people tell all on anecdotes of course people tell all on anecdotes of course people tell all the time that they feel good afterwards the time that they feel good afterwards the time that they feel good afterwards we need studies on this so if anyone's we need studies on this so if anyone's we need studies on this so if anyone's sitting out there thinking that's sitting out there thinking that's sitting out there thinking that's interesting then please do some studies interesting then please do some studies interesting then please do some studies on that I agree to get more out on that on that I agree to get more out on that on that I agree to get more out on that yeah so you had So You observe these yeah so you had So You observe these yeah so you had So You observe these winter swimmers who have done this for a winter swimmers who have done this for a winter swimmers who have done this for a few seasons yeah they're coming around few seasons yeah they're coming around few seasons yeah they're coming around for a new season of winter swimming and for a new season of winter swimming and for a new season of winter swimming and you've decided to recruit them as you've decided to recruit them as you've decided to recruit them as subjects subjects subjects they are getting into cold water um they are getting into cold water um they are getting into cold water um climbing down a ladder or jumping into climbing down a ladder or jumping into climbing down a ladder or jumping into the water up to their neck yeah climbing the water up to their neck yeah climbing the water up to their neck yeah climbing yeah okay climbing down a ladder into yeah okay climbing down a ladder into yeah okay climbing down a ladder into because this is done Outdoors what a fun because this is done Outdoors what a fun because this is done Outdoors what a fun study to do my my graduate thesis was study to do my my graduate thesis was study to do my my graduate thesis was done under fluorescent lights with no done under fluorescent lights with no done under fluorescent lights with no windows in a in a building that uh I windows in a in a building that uh I windows in a in a building that uh I mean I had a ton of fun as a PhD student mean I had a ton of fun as a PhD student mean I had a ton of fun as a PhD student I actually lived in the laboratory as a I actually lived in the laboratory as a I actually lived in the laboratory as a PhD student I loved it so much but um PhD student I loved it so much but um PhD student I loved it so much but um not something required to do a PhD by not something required to do a PhD by not something required to do a PhD by the way but um they're climbing down the the way but um they're climbing down the the way but um they're climbing down the ladder yeah getting in up to their neck

04:00ladder yeah getting in up to their neck ladder yeah getting in up to their neck staying in for 1 to two minutes and then staying in for 1 to two minutes and then staying in for 1 to two minutes and then getting out and how many times a week getting out and how many times a week getting out and how many times a week are they doing this so they do this two are they doing this so they do this two are they doing this so they do this two to three times per week and for each to three times per week and for each to three times per week and for each time they go each day they go H they time they go each day they go H they time they go each day they go H they take three rounds off so three dips and take three rounds off so three dips and take three rounds off so three dips and two Sona sessions so they start in the two Sona sessions so they start in the two Sona sessions so they start in the cold and they end in the cold water okay cold and they end in the cold water okay cold and they end in the cold water okay so it's get in for one to two minutes so it's get in for one to two minutes so it's get in for one to two minutes then get out and get into the sauna yeah then get out and get into the sauna yeah then get out and get into the sauna yeah um what is the temperature of the sauna um what is the temperature of the sauna um what is the temperature of the sauna uh about 80 degrees Celsius okay then uh about 80 degrees Celsius okay then uh about 80 degrees Celsius okay then how long are they in the sauna so they how long are they in the sauna so they how long are they in the sauna so they stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes so depending on if they went two times per depending on if they went two times per depending on if they went two times per week or three times per week okay and week or three times per week okay and week or three times per week okay and then they get back into the cold for a then they get back into the cold for a then they get back into the cold for a few minutes yeah two minutes up to two few minutes yeah two minutes up to two few minutes yeah two minutes up to two minutes yeah okay then back into the minutes yeah okay then back into the minutes yeah okay then back into the sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back sauna 15 minutes or so yeah then back into the cold for a third round yeah into the cold for a third round yeah into the cold for a third round yeah back into the back into the back into the sauna and then then they're ending on sauna and then then they're ending on sauna and then then they're ending on the cold and then back into the cold the cold and then back into the cold the cold and then back into the cold again and then ending on cold and uh and again and then ending on cold and uh and again and then ending on cold and uh and we'll talk about why it's important to

05:00we'll talk about why it's important to we'll talk about why it's important to end on cold the so-called soberg end on cold the so-called soberg end on cold the so-called soberg principle um how cold was the water in principle um how cold was the water in principle um how cold was the water in this particular given average because I this particular given average because I this particular given average because I realize it's outdoor winter swimming so realize it's outdoor winter swimming so realize it's outdoor winter swimming so it's going to vary depending on wind it's going to vary depending on wind it's going to vary depending on wind chill and things as well of course of chill and things as well of course of chill and things as well of course of course so it's a very uncontrolled course so it's a very uncontrolled course so it's a very uncontrolled environment to do this kind of study environment to do this kind of study environment to do this kind of study then but I wanted to do something that then but I wanted to do something that then but I wanted to do something that was also very close to something people was also very close to something people was also very close to something people can do for free going out in nature and can do for free going out in nature and can do for free going out in nature and use that and also have the nature like use that and also have the nature like use that and also have the nature like it's very healthy impact on us it lowers it's very healthy impact on us it lowers it's very healthy impact on us it lowers our stress our stress our stress uh stress level as well so by doing so I uh stress level as well so by doing so I uh stress level as well so by doing so I also measured the temperature every time also measured the temperature every time also measured the temperature every time they went so I have this graph and it's they went so I have this graph and it's they went so I have this graph and it's actually in the winter swimming book it actually in the winter swimming book it actually in the winter swimming book it shows the temperature in Denmark going shows the temperature in Denmark going shows the temperature in Denmark going like from October to April and it's like like from October to April and it's like like from October to April and it's like starts at 12° I think it's around 12 12° starts at 12° I think it's around 12 12° starts at 12° I think it's around 12 12° Celsius um the water and then it goes Celsius um the water and then it goes Celsius um the water and then it goes down to 2 degrees in on average in down to 2 degrees in on average in down to 2 degrees in on average in January and then up again um so it's January and then up again um so it's January and then up again um so it's within the spectrum of very cold water I

06:00within the spectrum of very cold water I within the spectrum of very cold water I would say from around 15 15° celus and would say from around 15 15° celus and would say from around 15 15° celus and and down but it was actually not colder and down but it was actually not colder and down but it was actually not colder than like 2 to four degrees like in in than like 2 to four degrees like in in than like 2 to four degrees like in in on average when it was the coldest so it on average when it was the coldest so it on average when it was the coldest so it doesn't have to be that cold to be good doesn't have to be that cold to be good doesn't have to be that cold to be good enough and and enough to activate our enough and and enough to activate our enough and and enough to activate our metabolism um and what time of day are metabolism um and what time of day are metabolism um and what time of day are um the participants doing this cold um the participants doing this cold um the participants doing this cold sauna alternation so I think they did sauna alternation so I think they did sauna alternation so I think they did this uh throughout the day so I didn't this uh throughout the day so I didn't this uh throughout the day so I didn't show whether they wanted to go in the show whether they wanted to go in the show whether they wanted to go in the morning in the afternoon or or in the morning in the afternoon or or in the morning in the afternoon or or in the evening at that time where I set up this evening at that time where I set up this evening at that time where I set up this study I would I was not controlling it study I would I was not controlling it study I would I was not controlling it in that way I wanted them to go whenever in that way I wanted them to go whenever in that way I wanted them to go whenever they had time and I also think that is they had time and I also think that is they had time and I also think that is the most important message to give out the most important message to give out the most important message to give out to give to people is when do it when you to give to people is when do it when you to give to people is when do it when you have time it's not if if if doing it a have time it's not if if if doing it a have time it's not if if if doing it a when you get home from work and it's 6 when you get home from work and it's 6 when you get home from work and it's 6 o00 in the evening and this is the time o00 in the evening and this is the time o00 in the evening and this is the time where you are where you can do it then where you are where you can do it then where you are where you can do it then then then try out if it's going to then then try out if it's going to then then try out if it's going to impact your sleep or not uh if it

07:00impact your sleep or not uh if it impact your sleep or not uh if it doesn't impact your sleep then fine but doesn't impact your sleep then fine but doesn't impact your sleep then fine but you have to try for yourself and find you have to try for yourself and find you have to try for yourself and find out what works for you it's the same for out what works for you it's the same for out what works for you it's the same for coffee for example right some people can coffee for example right some people can coffee for example right some people can drink coffee in the evening and go to drink coffee in the evening and go to drink coffee in the evening and go to bed and they can sleep H I can't or bed and they can sleep H I can't or bed and they can sleep H I can't or exercise or exercise exactly so I can't exercise or exercise exactly so I can't exercise or exercise exactly so I can't I can't do that and that's because the I can't do that and that's because the I can't do that and that's because the coffee exercise cold water um immersion coffee exercise cold water um immersion coffee exercise cold water um immersion is going to activate your sympathetic is going to activate your sympathetic is going to activate your sympathetic nervous system you have an increase in nervous system you have an increase in nervous system you have an increase in stress response in your body and and stress response in your body and and stress response in your body and and that's going to make it really hard to that's going to make it really hard to that's going to make it really hard to fall asleep for for some people at least fall asleep for for some people at least fall asleep for for some people at least U maybe you are super exhausted anyways U maybe you are super exhausted anyways U maybe you are super exhausted anyways and then you will just crash anyways but and then you will just crash anyways but and then you will just crash anyways but yeah but um that's that's the only thing yeah but um that's that's the only thing yeah but um that's that's the only thing so I just told them to do this if they so I just told them to do this if they so I just told them to do this if they can during the daytime um and that's can during the daytime um and that's can during the daytime um and that's primarily what they also did and then uh primarily what they also did and then uh primarily what they also did and then uh all along you're measuring Brown fat by all along you're measuring Brown fat by all along you're measuring Brown fat by way of this way of this way of this infrared uh camera right um so what did infrared uh camera right um so what did infrared uh camera right um so what did you observe in terms of changes in brown you observe in terms of changes in brown you observe in terms of changes in brown fat how quickly did that occur and um fat how quickly did that occur and um fat how quickly did that occur and um and then i' like to ask also about sauna

08:00and then i' like to ask also about sauna and then i' like to ask also about sauna a bit more um because earlier you a bit more um because earlier you a bit more um because earlier you mentioned that you can activate Brown mentioned that you can activate Brown mentioned that you can activate Brown fat with sauna as well with heat on the fat with sauna as well with heat on the fat with sauna as well with heat on the surface surface of the skin um how long surface surface of the skin um how long surface surface of the skin um how long did it take before you observe did it take before you observe did it take before you observe significant increases in brown fat um significant increases in brown fat um significant increases in brown fat um and was it increase density of my brown and was it increase density of my brown and was it increase density of my brown fat or distribution was it you know fat or distribution was it you know fat or distribution was it you know showing expansion to different regions showing expansion to different regions showing expansion to different regions throughout the body and um maybe you throughout the body and um maybe you throughout the body and um maybe you could also touch on some of the changes could also touch on some of the changes could also touch on some of the changes in in insulin sensitivity and metabolism in in insulin sensitivity and metabolism in in insulin sensitivity and metabolism yeah a very good good question and and I yeah a very good good question and and I yeah a very good good question and and I didn't mention this before but besides didn't mention this before but besides didn't mention this before but besides measuring um temperature as an outcome measuring um temperature as an outcome measuring um temperature as an outcome for brown fat activity we also uh did for brown fat activity we also uh did for brown fat activity we also uh did pet MRI scanning of the brown fat so pet MRI scanning of the brown fat so pet MRI scanning of the brown fat so this is like the the golden standard uh this is like the the golden standard uh this is like the the golden standard uh for measuring Brown fan and it's not for measuring Brown fan and it's not for measuring Brown fan and it's not very feasible for normal people to get very feasible for normal people to get very feasible for normal people to get an an a PET CT or pit MRI scanning of an an a PET CT or pit MRI scanning of an an a PET CT or pit MRI scanning of the brown fat is super expensive um so the brown fat is super expensive um so the brown fat is super expensive um so we had both uh to see if we could have

09:00we had both uh to see if we could have we had both uh to see if we could have like a continuous measure of brown fat like a continuous measure of brown fat like a continuous measure of brown fat in humans because that was already not in humans because that was already not in humans because that was already not not out there so I wanted to see during not out there so I wanted to see during not out there so I wanted to see during both the experimental days but also both the experimental days but also both the experimental days but also during day and night what kind of like during day and night what kind of like during day and night what kind of like Cadian uh Rhythm do we have in our Brown Cadian uh Rhythm do we have in our Brown Cadian uh Rhythm do we have in our Brown fat activity so that's why I wanted to fat activity so that's why I wanted to fat activity so that's why I wanted to have that as well so the Pet City have that as well so the Pet City have that as well so the Pet City scanning or the pit MRI scanning was to scanning or the pit MRI scanning was to scanning or the pit MRI scanning was to see upon code activation um stimulation see upon code activation um stimulation see upon code activation um stimulation for some hours do we have activation can for some hours do we have activation can for some hours do we have activation can we see the brown fat in this subject and we see the brown fat in this subject and we see the brown fat in this subject and also during Thermon neutrality or therm also during Thermon neutrality or therm also during Thermon neutrality or therm comfortable State uh how is that comfortable State uh how is that comfortable State uh how is that activated in each of the group of course activated in each of the group of course activated in each of the group of course ah so you want to see how comfortable ah so you want to see how comfortable ah so you want to see how comfortable people were away from the cold water and people were away from the cold water and people were away from the cold water and sauna just at different um temperatured sauna just at different um temperatured sauna just at different um temperatured environments is that right yes so also environments is that right yes so also environments is that right yes so also men that how comfortable are you I had I men that how comfortable are you I had I men that how comfortable are you I had I made this scale like visual analog scale made this scale like visual analog scale made this scale like visual analog scale and asked them how com fortable do you

10:00and asked them how com fortable do you and asked them how com fortable do you feel with this temperature um and feel with this temperature um and feel with this temperature um and throughout the study days during Cod throughout the study days during Cod throughout the study days during Cod exposure and thermal comfortable day I exposure and thermal comfortable day I exposure and thermal comfortable day I had a whole day where I just kept them had a whole day where I just kept them had a whole day where I just kept them therm comfortable to see do they therm comfortable to see do they therm comfortable to see do they activate the brown fat if they're just activate the brown fat if they're just activate the brown fat if they're just completely therm comfortable as good as completely therm comfortable as good as completely therm comfortable as good as we could get with that because you are we could get with that because you are we could get with that because you are asking people um on a scale from one 1 asking people um on a scale from one 1 asking people um on a scale from one 1 to 10 and five being thermal comfortable to 10 and five being thermal comfortable to 10 and five being thermal comfortable where are you on this scale so one would where are you on this scale so one would where are you on this scale so one would be very cold and 10 would be super be very cold and 10 would be super be very cold and 10 would be super burning hot um yeah and so that was a burning hot um yeah and so that was a burning hot um yeah and so that was a way to like try to figure out how do way to like try to figure out how do way to like try to figure out how do they actually feel also during the they actually feel also during the they actually feel also during the studies also measured um Electro studies also measured um Electro studies also measured um Electro myography so of of muscles to see do myography so of of muscles to see do myography so of of muscles to see do they shiver during the cooling day H they shiver during the cooling day H they shiver during the cooling day H sometimes people shiver before they know sometimes people shiver before they know sometimes people shiver before they know they're really shivering so I had they're really shivering so I had they're really shivering so I had interesting yeah so so our conscious interesting yeah so so our conscious interesting yeah so so our conscious perception of shivering might not be the perception of shivering might not be the perception of shivering might not be the best readout of shiver yeah well if you best readout of shiver yeah well if you best readout of shiver yeah well if you also get adapted to the cold water you also get adapted to the cold water you also get adapted to the cold water you will have

11:00will have will have less shivering they will be less less shivering they will be less less shivering they will be less vigorous they will be very small so you vigorous they will be very small so you vigorous they will be very small so you wouldn't probably know that you are wouldn't probably know that you are wouldn't probably know that you are shivering because it's the Shivering is shivering because it's the Shivering is shivering because it's the Shivering is so small and the mitochondria in the so small and the mitochondria in the so small and the mitochondria in the muscle cells will be so densed that it muscle cells will be so densed that it muscle cells will be so densed that it doesn't need to shiver maybe that much doesn't need to shiver maybe that much doesn't need to shiver maybe that much to get that thermogenesis going um to get that thermogenesis going um to get that thermogenesis going um compared to when you're completely new compared to when you're completely new compared to when you're completely new uh to co water exposure you're not uh to co water exposure you're not uh to co water exposure you're not adapted then the body needs to create adapted then the body needs to create adapted then the body needs to create these mitochondria these energy Fabrics these mitochondria these energy Fabrics these mitochondria these energy Fabrics to keep you you warm and that's also to keep you you warm and that's also to keep you you warm and that's also what the exercise is in the beginning what the exercise is in the beginning what the exercise is in the beginning but um when we measured this we we did but um when we measured this we we did but um when we measured this we we did see that the winter swimmers were see that the winter swimmers were see that the winter swimmers were shivering less uh or uh having less uh shivering less uh or uh having less uh shivering less uh or uh having less uh vigorous shivering when they said I'm vigorous shivering when they said I'm vigorous shivering when they said I'm cold so even though they they perception cold so even though they they perception cold so even though they they perception their perception of the Cod was pretty their perception of the Cod was pretty their perception of the Cod was pretty similar in in the in the groups um we similar in in the in the groups um we similar in in the in the groups um we could see that the the activation of the could see that the the activation of the could see that the the activation of the the muscles that we measure on um were

12:00the muscles that we measure on um were the muscles that we measure on um were different and more victorious in the different and more victorious in the different and more victorious in the control group were the subjects control group were the subjects control group were the subjects incentivized to be in the study were incentivized to be in the study were incentivized to be in the study were they paid or anything of that sort they they paid or anything of that sort they they paid or anything of that sort they just happen to like doing uh cold and just happen to like doing uh cold and just happen to like doing uh cold and sauna and so that's why they did the sauna and so that's why they did the sauna and so that's why they did the study um well they got paid a little bit study um well they got paid a little bit study um well they got paid a little bit for it but not much and um that's how we for it but not much and um that's how we for it but not much and um that's how we do this St sure I was just curious yeah do this St sure I was just curious yeah do this St sure I was just curious yeah I was just curious there might be some I was just curious there might be some I was just curious there might be some folks that Wonder so so what did you folks that Wonder so so what did you folks that Wonder so so what did you discover in terms of changes in brown discover in terms of changes in brown discover in terms of changes in brown fat insulin resistance or insulin fat insulin resistance or insulin fat insulin resistance or insulin sensitive ity rather and um metabolism sensitive ity rather and um metabolism sensitive ity rather and um metabolism so what we we saw uh was we had these so what we we saw uh was we had these so what we we saw uh was we had these kind of different measures uh to see kind of different measures uh to see kind of different measures uh to see what's to try and unre what what's what's to try and unre what what's what's to try and unre what what's actually going on when they are already actually going on when they are already actually going on when they are already adapted to the cold water compared to a adapted to the cold water compared to a adapted to the cold water compared to a control group who was matched on on control group who was matched on on control group who was matched on on various parameters we we did see that various parameters we we did see that various parameters we we did see that the winter swimmers had an increased the winter swimmers had an increased the winter swimmers had an increased insulin sensitivity they produced less insulin sensitivity they produced less insulin sensitivity they produced less insulin uh on all the experimental days insulin uh on all the experimental days insulin uh on all the experimental days so besides from just cooling them and

13:00so besides from just cooling them and so besides from just cooling them and measuring the brown fat on each of these measuring the brown fat on each of these measuring the brown fat on each of these cooling days there were two cooling days cooling days there were two cooling days cooling days there were two cooling days and one theroc comfortable day right so and one theroc comfortable day right so and one theroc comfortable day right so I wanted to measure insulin when they I wanted to measure insulin when they I wanted to measure insulin when they just they were fasting meaning that they just they were fasting meaning that they just they were fasting meaning that they hadn't eaten in uh eight hours before hadn't eaten in uh eight hours before hadn't eaten in uh eight hours before the study day um and they were the study day um and they were the study day um and they were completely laying still not moving just completely laying still not moving just completely laying still not moving just in a bed um and we measured insulin uh in a bed um and we measured insulin uh in a bed um and we measured insulin uh during the experimental day just to see during the experimental day just to see during the experimental day just to see how what level are they on and we could how what level are they on and we could how what level are they on and we could see that the the the winter swim it had see that the the the winter swim it had see that the the the winter swim it had lower production of insulin and they lower production of insulin and they lower production of insulin and they also when they had and glucose drink so also when they had and glucose drink so also when they had and glucose drink so we give them that to see if they to test we give them that to see if they to test we give them that to see if they to test before we enroll them in studies to see before we enroll them in studies to see before we enroll them in studies to see if they have diabetes for example and if they have diabetes for example and if they have diabetes for example and not knowing for example that that not knowing for example that that not knowing for example that that wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the wouldn't that would like ruin maybe the study so we test for that and see if study so we test for that and see if study so we test for that and see if they have like a normal curve so what we they have like a normal curve so what we they have like a normal curve so what we did see in that was that the winter did see in that was that the winter did see in that was that the winter swimmers had a faster glucose clear in swimmers had a faster glucose clear in swimmers had a faster glucose clear in the bloodstream so after 2 hours uh we

14:00the bloodstream so after 2 hours uh we the bloodstream so after 2 hours uh we could see that they had a lower level could see that they had a lower level could see that they had a lower level and it went the curve went down faster and it went the curve went down faster and it went the curve went down faster than any the control group so despite than any the control group so despite than any the control group so despite having lower insulin release they have having lower insulin release they have having lower insulin release they have better blood glucose clearance which is better blood glucose clearance which is better blood glucose clearance which is really what you want what we all seek really what you want what we all seek really what you want what we all seek right you don't excessive insulin is bad right you don't excessive insulin is bad right you don't excessive insulin is bad insulin being a um more or less a insulin being a um more or less a insulin being a um more or less a chaperone for blood glucose um um can do chaperone for blood glucose um um can do chaperone for blood glucose um um can do all sorts of other things as well of all sorts of other things as well of all sorts of other things as well of course but um and having high blood course but um and having high blood course but um and having high blood glucose obviously terrible yeah for glucose obviously terrible yeah for glucose obviously terrible yeah for cells especially brain cells I don't cells especially brain cells I don't cells especially brain cells I don't think people realize how toxic high think people realize how toxic high think people realize how toxic high blood glucose is having high glucose is blood glucose is having high glucose is blood glucose is having high glucose is if you want to kill neurons you make you if you want to kill neurons you make you if you want to kill neurons you make you make their uh put them in an environment make their uh put them in an environment make their uh put them in an environment where there's too much sugar ah um oh where there's too much sugar ah um oh where there's too much sugar ah um oh yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean yeah very yeah very neurotoxic I mean that's and there are mechanisms like that's and there are mechanisms like that's and there are mechanisms like insulin that buffer that keep you know insulin that buffer that keep you know insulin that buffer that keep you know keeping blood glucose in a reasonable keeping blood glucose in a reasonable keeping blood glucose in a reasonable range so that um it doesn't happen I range so that um it doesn't happen I range so that um it doesn't happen I mean I think that's why people will go mean I think that's why people will go mean I think that's why people will go into insulinemic shock um hypoglycemic into insulinemic shock um hypoglycemic into insulinemic shock um hypoglycemic shock is also possible so that range in

15:00shock is also possible so that range in shock is also possible so that range in which neurons are happy is not a is not which neurons are happy is not a is not which neurons are happy is not a is not a tremendously large range incidentally a tremendously large range incidentally a tremendously large range incidentally the range in which neurons are are um the range in which neurons are are um the range in which neurons are are um happy and surviving uh is much greater happy and surviving uh is much greater happy and surviving uh is much greater as one gets colder than when you heat up as one gets colder than when you heat up as one gets colder than when you heat up I mean you you can basically destroy I mean you you can basically destroy I mean you you can basically destroy brain cells by getting too hot for too brain cells by getting too hot for too brain cells by getting too hot for too long oh yeah yeah you can definitely long oh yeah yeah you can definitely long oh yeah yeah you can definitely destroy brain cells permanently by destroy brain cells permanently by destroy brain cells permanently by getting too cold for too long but you getting too cold for too long but you getting too cold for too long but you have to get really really cold for a have to get really really cold for a have to get really really cold for a really long time yeah yeah um very really long time yeah yeah um very really long time yeah yeah um very interesting yeah we we're thinking about interesting yeah we we're thinking about interesting yeah we we're thinking about doing an episode on um uh s survival of doing an episode on um uh s survival of doing an episode on um uh s survival of the brain after death kind of things the brain after death kind of things the brain after death kind of things which actually happens you know you hear which actually happens you know you hear which actually happens you know you hear about these people who are declared dead about these people who are declared dead about these people who are declared dead and then come back and there is actually and then come back and there is actually and then come back and there is actually now a lot of cry preservation type now a lot of cry preservation type now a lot of cry preservation type approaches for that this is uh anyway we approaches for that this is uh anyway we approaches for that this is uh anyway we risk going into the the uh the esoteric risk going into the the uh the esoteric risk going into the the uh the esoteric now so I'll steer us back to our now so I'll steer us back to our now so I'll steer us back to our discussion about your study but um so if discussion about your study but um so if discussion about your study but um so if I do the I do the I do the math these subjects are in the cold math these subjects are in the cold math these subjects are in the cold let's say they're doing three rounds of let's say they're doing three rounds of let's say they're doing three rounds of cold for one to two minutes three t two

16:00cold for one to two minutes three t two cold for one to two minutes three t two or three times a week what were the or three times a week what were the or three times a week what were the thresholds that you discovered were thresholds that you discovered were thresholds that you discovered were important for getting these positive important for getting these positive important for getting these positive changes in um such as reduce blood sugar changes in um such as reduce blood sugar changes in um such as reduce blood sugar or clearance of blood sugar um being or clearance of blood sugar um being or clearance of blood sugar um being more efficient uh reduced insulin um more efficient uh reduced insulin um more efficient uh reduced insulin um improved Brown fat distribution and improved Brown fat distribution and improved Brown fat distribution and density um how much cold exposure do density um how much cold exposure do density um how much cold exposure do people need how much heat exposure do people need how much heat exposure do people need how much heat exposure do people need in order to extract these people need in order to extract these people need in order to extract these benefits benefits benefits yeah so when we then calculated the yeah so when we then calculated the yeah so when we then calculated the numbers together we can see that this numbers together we can see that this numbers together we can see that this was ended up being 11 minutes in total was ended up being 11 minutes in total was ended up being 11 minutes in total per week uh so not in one session of per week uh so not in one session of per week uh so not in one session of course but they had two to three visits course but they had two to three visits course but they had two to three visits to the water and the sauna per week so to the water and the sauna per week so to the water and the sauna per week so when we divide that out it corresponds when we divide that out it corresponds when we divide that out it corresponds to being in cold water 1 to two minutes to being in cold water 1 to two minutes to being in cold water 1 to two minutes at a time but also in the Sona 10 to 15 at a time but also in the Sona 10 to 15 at a time but also in the Sona 10 to 15 minutes at a time and I think this is minutes at a time and I think this is minutes at a time and I think this is very like um also similar to what we see very like um also similar to what we see very like um also similar to what we see in other studies when we look for in other studies when we look for in other studies when we look for example to the observational studies

17:00example to the observational studies example to the observational studies from The Finnish cohort study from Len from The Finnish cohort study from Len from The Finnish cohort study from Len at L for example they published this at L for example they published this at L for example they published this very amazing paper in very amazing paper in very amazing paper in 2015 um some results from this long 2015 um some results from this long 2015 um some results from this long cohort study where they show that um cohort study where they show that um cohort study where they show that um that up to 30 minutes uh in the sauna that up to 30 minutes uh in the sauna that up to 30 minutes uh in the sauna was healthy and they you you lower your was healthy and they you you lower your was healthy and they you you lower your risk of cardiovascular disease and risk of cardiovascular disease and risk of cardiovascular disease and that's like the threshold and if you go that's like the threshold and if you go that's like the threshold and if you go further than that then there is not more further than that then there is not more further than that then there is not more uh um healthy benefits to to gain from uh um healthy benefits to to gain from uh um healthy benefits to to gain from that so um and before that it's like 19 that so um and before that it's like 19 that so um and before that it's like 19 minutes then you will have this dose minutes then you will have this dose minutes then you will have this dose response relationship up to 19 minutes response relationship up to 19 minutes response relationship up to 19 minutes that's really in decreasing your risk of that's really in decreasing your risk of that's really in decreasing your risk of cardiovascular diseases and I think we cardiovascular diseases and I think we cardiovascular diseases and I think we that's per week 90 minutes per week uh that's per week 90 minutes per week uh that's per week 90 minutes per week uh 90 minutes per session now per session 90 minutes per session now per session 90 minutes per session now per session yeah per session if we yeah per session if we yeah per session if we um then compare that with my study which um then compare that with my study which um then compare that with my study which was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I was 10 to 15 minutes per session then I think it fits very well with what we

18:00think it fits very well with what we think it fits very well with what we call the hematic stress or healthy call the hematic stress or healthy call the hematic stress or healthy stress that you expose the cells to this stress that you expose the cells to this stress that you expose the cells to this kind of like potent very uh stressful kind of like potent very uh stressful kind of like potent very uh stressful situation uh where they increase heat situation uh where they increase heat situation uh where they increase heat shock proteins in the cells and that shock proteins in the cells and that shock proteins in the cells and that will repair the cells but if you then will repair the cells but if you then will repair the cells but if you then overdo it and you go beyond the maybe 30 overdo it and you go beyond the maybe 30 overdo it and you go beyond the maybe 30 minutes in the Sona this observational minutes in the Sona this observational minutes in the Sona this observational study from uh Finland with more than up study from uh Finland with more than up study from uh Finland with more than up to 2,000 Sona bathers where have to 2,000 Sona bathers where have to 2,000 Sona bathers where have followed these for 20 years they see followed these for 20 years they see followed these for 20 years they see that a 30 minutes position is like that a 30 minutes position is like that a 30 minutes position is like enough and if if you go above that you enough and if if you go above that you enough and if if you go above that you don't get more health benefits out of it don't get more health benefits out of it don't get more health benefits out of it so I think there's a window where we can so I think there's a window where we can so I think there's a window where we can say the healthy stress corresponds to say the healthy stress corresponds to say the healthy stress corresponds to like 10 minutes and I think it's like like 10 minutes and I think it's like like 10 minutes and I think it's like per session per session and it's not per session per session and it's not per session per session and it's not it's not much actually so you don't need it's not much actually so you don't need it's not much actually so you don't need to it shows that you don't have to to it shows that you don't have to to it shows that you don't have to expose yourself very much to the Heat or expose yourself very much to the Heat or expose yourself very much to the Heat or very much actually to the cold to get very much actually to the cold to get very much actually to the cold to get this healthy benefits uh from going into this healthy benefits uh from going into this healthy benefits uh from going into cold going to heat and have healthy cold going to heat and have healthy cold going to heat and have healthy benefit on your cardiovascular system so

19:00benefit on your cardiovascular system so benefit on your cardiovascular system so I think this is very important also I think this is very important also I think this is very important also message to to to get out that you don't message to to to get out that you don't message to to to get out that you don't have to go extreme you don't have to have to go extreme you don't have to have to go extreme you don't have to swim for half an hour in the cold water swim for half an hour in the cold water swim for half an hour in the cold water you can go in the water for one to two you can go in the water for one to two you can go in the water for one to two minutes um per session but go up to 11 minutes um per session but go up to 11 minutes um per session but go up to 11 minutes per week in total and for the minutes per week in total and for the minutes per week in total and for the sauna my study showed 57 minutes in sauna my study showed 57 minutes in sauna my study showed 57 minutes in total per week and if we also then total per week and if we also then total per week and if we also then divide it out on these two to three days divide it out on these two to three days divide it out on these two to three days and two sessions each day correspond to and two sessions each day correspond to and two sessions each day correspond to 10 to 15 minutes so it's a low Dres hole 10 to 15 minutes so it's a low Dres hole 10 to 15 minutes so it's a low Dres hole but I think it's it's good to have that but I think it's it's good to have that but I think it's it's good to have that to maybe we can aim for that if if to maybe we can aim for that if if to maybe we can aim for that if if people need to have something to to aim people need to have something to to aim people need to have something to to aim for and I think and I think it's really for and I think and I think it's really for and I think and I think it's really good to have that because then you you good to have that because then you you good to have that because then you you don't have then you don't overdo it and don't have then you don't overdo it and don't have then you don't overdo it and if you overdo it you exhaust the cells if you overdo it you exhaust the cells if you overdo it you exhaust the cells and that will increase your risk of and that will increase your risk of and that will increase your risk of cardiovascular disease also so well I cardiovascular disease also so well I cardiovascular disease also so well I get a lot of questions about this and I get a lot of questions about this and I get a lot of questions about this and I did solicit for questions for this did solicit for questions for this did solicit for questions for this podcast on Twitter and one of the podcast on Twitter and one of the podcast on Twitter and one of the questions that I got was as one becomes

20:00questions that I got was as one becomes questions that I got was as one becomes more cold adapted do the benefits start more cold adapted do the benefits start more cold adapted do the benefits start to wear off or can people do too much to wear off or can people do too much to wear off or can people do too much cold exposure of course the answer to cold exposure of course the answer to cold exposure of course the answer to that is yes you can become hypothermic that is yes you can become hypothermic that is yes you can become hypothermic but I'm sensing a different answer now but I'm sensing a different answer now but I'm sensing a different answer now which is if I understand correctly um which is if I understand correctly um which is if I understand correctly um the threshold is 11 minutes total per the threshold is 11 minutes total per the threshold is 11 minutes total per week of deliberate cold exposure divided week of deliberate cold exposure divided week of deliberate cold exposure divided into two or three sessions of maybe one into two or three sessions of maybe one into two or three sessions of maybe one to three minutes depending on how long to three minutes depending on how long to three minutes depending on how long somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I somebody stays in and then 57 minutes I want to be careful not to round up um to want to be careful not to round up um to want to be careful not to round up um to an hour but divide it into maybe three an hour but divide it into maybe three an hour but divide it into maybe three 20 minute sessions or so you know um so 20 minute sessions or so you know um so 20 minute sessions or so you know um so one doesn't have to be perfect as long one doesn't have to be perfect as long one doesn't have to be perfect as long as you get beyond that threshold exactly as you get beyond that threshold exactly as you get beyond that threshold exactly but I I wonder something which is is it but I I wonder something which is is it but I I wonder something which is is it the case that if somebody said oh you the case that if somebody said oh you the case that if somebody said oh you know I'm just going to do one 11 minute know I'm just going to do one 11 minute know I'm just going to do one 11 minute session per week that might actually not session per week that might actually not session per week that might actually not be as beneficial as dividing it up be as beneficial as dividing it up be as beneficial as dividing it up because what you told us earlier is that because what you told us earlier is that because what you told us earlier is that the hormetic respon response depends on the hormetic respon response depends on the hormetic respon response depends on having that cold shock you actually

21:00having that cold shock you actually having that cold shock you actually don't want to become too cold adapted I don't want to become too cold adapted I don't want to become too cold adapted I mean once the blood pressure response mean once the blood pressure response mean once the blood pressure response drops down so in minute four five and drops down so in minute four five and drops down so in minute four five and six yeah you're getting very cold and six yeah you're getting very cold and six yeah you're getting very cold and you're shivering but you're one is not you're shivering but you're one is not you're shivering but you're one is not getting the autonomic stimulus that they getting the autonomic stimulus that they getting the autonomic stimulus that they want I guess I could liken this to um if want I guess I could liken this to um if want I guess I could liken this to um if exercise worked in a way where it was exercise worked in a way where it was exercise worked in a way where it was only the first few minutes of exercise only the first few minutes of exercise only the first few minutes of exercise that really triggered the adaptation of that really triggered the adaptation of that really triggered the adaptation of course this is not how it works but um course this is not how it works but um course this is not how it works but um in fact probably quite the opposite um in fact probably quite the opposite um in fact probably quite the opposite um but if that were the case then it's not but if that were the case then it's not but if that were the case then it's not simply the total amount of exercise but simply the total amount of exercise but simply the total amount of exercise but dividing up the the the sessions into dividing up the the the sessions into dividing up the the the sessions into little bouts where every single time it little bouts where every single time it little bouts where every single time it acts as a as a stimulus that seems to be acts as a as a stimulus that seems to be acts as a as a stimulus that seems to be the key here um this is very important the key here um this is very important the key here um this is very important um because having watched the landscape um because having watched the landscape um because having watched the landscape of this on social media but also in of this on social media but also in of this on social media but also in books and generally um I think you're books and generally um I think you're books and generally um I think you're the first person to really touch on this the first person to really touch on this the first person to really touch on this that the goal is not to get so cold that the goal is not to get so cold that the goal is not to get so cold adapted that you can sit in for the full adapted that you can sit in for the full adapted that you can sit in for the full 11 minutes in one session where the goal 11 minutes in one session where the goal 11 minutes in one session where the goal is to be able to do an hour of very hot

22:00is to be able to do an hour of very hot is to be able to do an hour of very hot sauna if you want to I suppose people sauna if you want to I suppose people sauna if you want to I suppose people could do it for other reasons but if the could do it for other reasons but if the could do it for other reasons but if the goal is to improve these Health metrics goal is to improve these Health metrics goal is to improve these Health metrics yeah then the idea is to keep the yeah then the idea is to keep the yeah then the idea is to keep the stimulus a stimulus short exactly yeah stimulus a stimulus short exactly yeah stimulus a stimulus short exactly yeah great well this also I think there's great well this also I think there's great well this also I think there's practical feasibility as you pointed out practical feasibility as you pointed out practical feasibility as you pointed out because getting into a cold shower or because getting into a cold shower or because getting into a cold shower or cold immersion or natural body water for cold immersion or natural body water for cold immersion or natural body water for a couple of minutes is far less uh um a couple of minutes is far less uh um a couple of minutes is far less uh um you know challenging to most people than you know challenging to most people than you know challenging to most people than finding a full morning to go you know finding a full morning to go you know finding a full morning to go you know spend there um but I've never really spend there um but I've never really spend there um but I've never really heard it heard it heard it articulated that the longer sessions articulated that the longer sessions articulated that the longer sessions might not be beneficial and might might not be beneficial and might might not be beneficial and might actually be actually be actually be detrimental detrimental detrimental um that's very important uh were there um that's very important uh were there um that's very important uh were there any other observations that you made um any other observations that you made um any other observations that you made um that did not make it into the paper or that did not make it into the paper or that did not make it into the paper or that were kind of in the the margin that were kind of in the the margin that were kind of in the the margin notes in terms of psychological benefits notes in terms of psychological benefits notes in terms of psychological benefits um or anything of that sort there was um or anything of that sort there was um or anything of that sort there was this recent study on soldiers that this recent study on soldiers that

23:00this recent study on soldiers that talked about weight loss it's sort of a talked about weight loss it's sort of a talked about weight loss it's sort of a controversial study um for a lot of controversial study um for a lot of controversial study um for a lot of reasons um but one of the things they reasons um but one of the things they reasons um but one of the things they remarked uh in the paper was that there remarked uh in the paper was that there remarked uh in the paper was that there were a lot of psychological changes were a lot of psychological changes were a lot of psychological changes improved buffering against anxiety um improved buffering against anxiety um improved buffering against anxiety um they even the men and women in that they even the men and women in that they even the men and women in that study um reported one of the significant study um reported one of the significant study um reported one of the significant effects was um significantly improved effects was um significantly improved effects was um significantly improved sexual satisfaction of course they sexual satisfaction of course they sexual satisfaction of course they didn't tell us what that meant for these didn't tell us what that meant for these didn't tell us what that meant for these subjects but so we won't go there but subjects but so we won't go there but subjects but so we won't go there but but a number of subjective improvements but a number of subjective improvements but a number of subjective improvements was there anything that you observed or was there anything that you observed or was there anything that you observed or took note of in in your study that took note of in in your study that took note of in in your study that perhaps didn't make the main abstract perhaps didn't make the main abstract perhaps didn't make the main abstract but that we should be aware of uh yeah but that we should be aware of uh yeah but that we should be aware of uh yeah there was some um and I'm um today I there was some um and I'm um today I there was some um and I'm um today I regret that I didn't measure on sleep regret that I didn't measure on sleep regret that I didn't measure on sleep for example I I frankly didn't really for example I I frankly didn't really for example I I frankly didn't really think about that when I I when I think about that when I I when I think about that when I I when I designed the study um so we were very um designed the study um so we were very um designed the study um so we were very um much occupied with the metabolism and much occupied with the metabolism and much occupied with the metabolism and kind of had the thought maybe this could kind of had the thought maybe this could kind of had the thought maybe this could have impact uh Sleep Quality um and I

24:00have impact uh Sleep Quality um and I have impact uh Sleep Quality um and I wish I just I had the thought that why wish I just I had the thought that why wish I just I had the thought that why don't you just ask them in a don't you just ask them in a don't you just ask them in a questionnaire but I asked them every questionnaire but I asked them every questionnaire but I asked them every morning or every morning was not many morning or every morning was not many morning or every morning was not many mornings they just two mornings actually mornings they just two mornings actually mornings they just two mornings actually we measured on um but the winter we measured on um but the winter we measured on um but the winter swimmers um told us before I rode them swimmers um told us before I rode them swimmers um told us before I rode them that they had a really good sleep that they had a really good sleep that they had a really good sleep quality the control group also had that quality the control group also had that quality the control group also had that but they told me on the day where we but they told me on the day where we but they told me on the day where we measured the brown fat on on a day and a measured the brown fat on on a day and a measured the brown fat on on a day and a night uh so for actually two days and night uh so for actually two days and night uh so for actually two days and two nights um they told me that they two nights um they told me that they two nights um they told me that they didn't they had a good night's sleep but didn't they had a good night's sleep but didn't they had a good night's sleep but they also woke up so it's just telling they also woke up so it's just telling they also woke up so it's just telling me that they also had like a quick wake me that they also had like a quick wake me that they also had like a quick wake up and then they fell asleep again um up and then they fell asleep again um up and then they fell asleep again um and they went to swimmers uh so they and they went to swimmers uh so they and they went to swimmers uh so they have a really good sleep so it's like have a really good sleep so it's like have a really good sleep so it's like and in general they also say we we sleep and in general they also say we we sleep and in general they also say we we sleep very well I sleep very well so it's very well I sleep very well so it's very well I sleep very well so it's anecdotally in general it corresponds to anecdotally in general it corresponds to anecdotally in general it corresponds to what I heard in my Stu what I heard in my Stu what I heard in my Stu but nothing that I measured on um which

25:00but nothing that I measured on um which but nothing that I measured on um which would could be fun to do in the future would could be fun to do in the future would could be fun to do in the future but we didn't measure on Sleep Quality but we didn't measure on Sleep Quality but we didn't measure on Sleep Quality that would been have been a really good that would been have been a really good that would been have been a really good idea to do they also told me that they idea to do they also told me that they idea to do they also told me that they were very comfortable when they were were very comfortable when they were were very comfortable when they were cold they they don't mind winter cold they they don't mind winter cold they they don't mind winter swimmers they don't mind um going out swimmers they don't mind um going out swimmers they don't mind um going out for example um in in the coat with a for example um in in the coat with a for example um in in the coat with a t-shirt there were also less uh scared t-shirt there were also less uh scared t-shirt there were also less uh scared of showing their skin that was also one of showing their skin that was also one of showing their skin that was also one observation interesting yeah so kind of observation interesting yeah so kind of observation interesting yeah so kind of a reduced social anxiety yeah they were a reduced social anxiety yeah they were a reduced social anxiety yeah they were just so comfortable in the lab you as just so comfortable in the lab you as just so comfortable in the lab you as you just mentioned before coats on and you just mentioned before coats on and you just mentioned before coats on and everybody's joinning around it was very everybody's joinning around it was very everybody's joinning around it was very busy and um all the other um scientist busy and um all the other um scientist busy and um all the other um scientist out in the hallway and also my out in the hallway and also my out in the hallway and also my supervisor had her office down down the supervisor had her office down down the supervisor had her office down down the hallway and and one of the winter hallway and and one of the winter hallway and and one of the winter swimmers one day just got out of bed swimmers one day just got out of bed swimmers one day just got out of bed after have been in the study for eight after have been in the study for eight after have been in the study for eight hours we it was a long day right he hours we it was a long day right he hours we it was a long day right he jumped out of the bed and had his jumped out of the bed and had his jumped out of the bed and had his clothes in the bathroom and he went out

26:00clothes in the bathroom and he went out clothes in the bathroom and he went out completely naked he didn't care he just completely naked he didn't care he just completely naked he didn't care he just went out it was like so that's a side went out it was like so that's a side went out it was like so that's a side effect perhaps of getting too effect perhaps of getting too effect perhaps of getting too comfortable with the cold um and we're comfortable with the cold um and we're comfortable with the cold um and we're not recommending that although in your not recommending that although in your not recommending that although in your book you um did a uh you dedicated some book you um did a uh you dedicated some book you um did a uh you dedicated some let me start that again although in your let me start that again although in your let me start that again although in your book you dedicated some uh pages to um book you dedicated some uh pages to um book you dedicated some uh pages to um naked winter swimming or I should say naked winter swimming or I should say naked winter swimming or I should say naked cold water exposure as opposed to naked cold water exposure as opposed to naked cold water exposure as opposed to um um um uh with bathing suit yeah are there any uh with bathing suit yeah are there any uh with bathing suit yeah are there any data on this I'm sorry chuckling but um data on this I'm sorry chuckling but um data on this I'm sorry chuckling but um I think in most places in the United I think in most places in the United I think in most places in the United States it's uh skinny dipping is not um States it's uh skinny dipping is not um States it's uh skinny dipping is not um is not legal uh most public beaches is not legal uh most public beaches is not legal uh most public beaches there are a few in fact where I I my there are a few in fact where I I my there are a few in fact where I I my laboratory before moving to Stanford was laboratory before moving to Stanford was laboratory before moving to Stanford was in San Diego and I at the sulk Institute in San Diego and I at the sulk Institute in San Diego and I at the sulk Institute for biological studies beautiful for biological studies beautiful for biological studies beautiful building incredible Sciences done there building incredible Sciences done there building incredible Sciences done there the beach right below that it's called the beach right below that it's called the beach right below that it's called Black's Beach okay and um and it's a Black's Beach okay and um and it's a Black's Beach okay and um and it's a known nude beach um and so whenever known nude beach um and so whenever known nude beach um and so whenever tourists were heading down the stairway

27:00tourists were heading down the stairway tourists were heading down the stairway there um I would you know sort of let there um I would you know sort of let there um I would you know sort of let them know especially if they had kids them know especially if they had kids them know especially if they had kids I'd let them know you know it's and it's I'd let them know you know it's and it's I'd let them know you know it's and it's a nude beach of a particular um uh of a a nude beach of a particular um uh of a a nude beach of a particular um uh of a particular genre so I I'd give them a particular genre so I I'd give them a particular genre so I I'd give them a little warning about what what they little warning about what what they little warning about what what they could expect down below it's a um in any could expect down below it's a um in any could expect down below it's a um in any event th those beaches are quite rare um event th those beaches are quite rare um event th those beaches are quite rare um in the United States maybe compared to in the United States maybe compared to in the United States maybe compared to Europe I don't know um but yeah maybe Europe I don't know um but yeah maybe Europe I don't know um but yeah maybe yeah so is there anything special about yeah so is there anything special about yeah so is there anything special about um clothless versus clothed um exposure um clothless versus clothed um exposure um clothless versus clothed um exposure yeah I think in that sense uh we are a yeah I think in that sense uh we are a yeah I think in that sense uh we are a bit more free with this kind of like but bit more free with this kind of like but bit more free with this kind of like but but remember we also had this winter but remember we also had this winter but remember we also had this winter swimming culture for so for hundreds of swimming culture for so for hundreds of swimming culture for so for hundreds of years in Denmark and the winter the years in Denmark and the winter the years in Denmark and the winter the oldest winter swimming clubs that we oldest winter swimming clubs that we oldest winter swimming clubs that we have especially the one we have in have especially the one we have in have especially the one we have in Copenhagen where I did my next study Copenhagen where I did my next study Copenhagen where I did my next study which we haven't talked about but and which we haven't talked about but and which we haven't talked about but and it's also not published yet but um in it's also not published yet but um in it's also not published yet but um in that winter swimming club it's the that winter swimming club it's the that winter swimming club it's the oldest one we have and it's huge and oldest one we have and it's huge and oldest one we have and it's huge and they they swim naked at this facility they they swim naked at this facility they they swim naked at this facility men and women men and women and they men and women men and women and they men and women men and women and they have Sona where they can go in together

28:00have Sona where they can go in together have Sona where they can go in together and they also have the separate sonas and they also have the separate sonas and they also have the separate sonas but it's very much a a Danish thing and but it's very much a a Danish thing and but it's very much a a Danish thing and and I think it's I think it's I think and I think it's I think it's I think and I think it's I think it's I think it's good if people want that um and I it's good if people want that um and I it's good if people want that um and I had it in my book because people want to had it in my book because people want to had it in my book because people want to know if they have to swim with their know if they have to swim with their know if they have to swim with their bathing suit on or if they can take it bathing suit on or if they can take it bathing suit on or if they can take it off or what's the what's the difference off or what's the what's the difference off or what's the what's the difference is there any difference in this and if is there any difference in this and if is there any difference in this and if you ask me there is no difference if you you ask me there is no difference if you you ask me there is no difference if you have your little skinny bikini on it's have your little skinny bikini on it's have your little skinny bikini on it's not going to do any difference to your not going to do any difference to your not going to do any difference to your your cold exposure or your adaptation your cold exposure or your adaptation your cold exposure or your adaptation it's not going to do any difference for it's not going to do any difference for it's not going to do any difference for your benefits of course but I think that your benefits of course but I think that your benefits of course but I think that it has something else it has something it has something else it has something it has something else it has something to do with how you also absorb yourself to do with how you also absorb yourself to do with how you also absorb yourself how you absorb your surroundings and how you absorb your surroundings and how you absorb your surroundings and it's some some sense of freedom in it's some some sense of freedom in it's some some sense of freedom in skinny dipping so I think people in skinny dipping so I think people in skinny dipping so I think people in Denmark who does this Denmark who does this Denmark who does this is they do the winter swimming because is they do the winter swimming because is they do the winter swimming because they feel free when they do this they they feel free when they do this they they feel free when they do this they come home from work they go to this club come home from work they go to this club come home from work they go to this club and they skinny dip and they feel like and they skinny dip and they feel like and they skinny dip and they feel like in touch with nature and they have maybe

29:00in touch with nature and they have maybe in touch with nature and they have maybe done this their whole life so this is an done this their whole life so this is an done this their whole life so this is an old tradition in Denmark in some of the old tradition in Denmark in some of the old tradition in Denmark in some of the clubs um but the newer clubs that are clubs um but the newer clubs that are clubs um but the newer clubs that are coming they don't they don't skinny dip coming they don't they don't skinny dip coming they don't they don't skinny dip so everyone has bathing sua I never so everyone has bathing sua I never so everyone has bathing sua I never Skinny Dip because there are people Skinny Dip because there are people Skinny Dip because there are people around people with phones and taking around people with phones and taking around people with phones and taking pictures all the time so this a pictures all the time so this a pictures all the time so this a different different nowadays different different nowadays different different nowadays everything's recorded yeah and also this everything's recorded yeah and also this everything's recorded yeah and also this this old tradition is also fading away this old tradition is also fading away this old tradition is also fading away because of that yeah I um I use sauna because of that yeah I um I use sauna because of that yeah I um I use sauna and cold at home but when I travel there and cold at home but when I travel there and cold at home but when I travel there there's a a b so Russian B has hot sauna there's a a b so Russian B has hot sauna there's a a b so Russian B has hot sauna and cold plunge um there's one in San and cold plunge um there's one in San and cold plunge um there's one in San Francisco called Archimedes B um and Francisco called Archimedes B um and Francisco called Archimedes B um and that one is clothing optional so some that one is clothing optional so some that one is clothing optional so some people are clothed such as myself and people are clothed such as myself and people are clothed such as myself and then other people are not and it's co-ed then other people are not and it's co-ed then other people are not and it's co-ed most of the time I think they have male most of the time I think they have male most of the time I think they have male female separated uh evenings or female separated uh evenings or female separated uh evenings or something like that and then um the something like that and then um the something like that and then um the other B is Spa 88 which is in on Wall other B is Spa 88 which is in on Wall other B is Spa 88 which is in on Wall Street in New York is an amazing a as Street in New York is an amazing a as Street in New York is an amazing a as well um and these are starting to crop

30:00well um and these are starting to crop well um and these are starting to crop up in different cities or maybe they've up in different cities or maybe they've up in different cities or maybe they've been there for a long time and as been there for a long time and as been there for a long time and as deliberate cold exposure in sauna gets deliberate cold exposure in sauna gets deliberate cold exposure in sauna gets more popular more people are using them more popular more people are using them more popular more people are using them the the one in New York that I that spy the the one in New York that I that spy the the one in New York that I that spy 88 is always clothed um and it's 88 is always clothed um and it's 88 is always clothed um and it's interesting because you know people here interesting because you know people here interesting because you know people here uh naked or skinny dipping and they they uh naked or skinny dipping and they they uh naked or skinny dipping and they they might get certain ideas in mind it um might get certain ideas in mind it um might get certain ideas in mind it um yeah all these places are very well lit yeah all these places are very well lit yeah all these places are very well lit and they all have a tone of kind of um and they all have a tone of kind of um and they all have a tone of kind of um of Health that it's about the kind of of Health that it's about the kind of of Health that it's about the kind of health and and and Wellness um I guess health and and and Wellness um I guess health and and and Wellness um I guess the point being that um there's no the point being that um there's no the point being that um there's no requirement uh to do one thing or the requirement uh to do one thing or the requirement uh to do one thing or the other um although in the studies that uh other um although in the studies that uh other um although in the studies that uh you did obviously um people were clothed you did obviously um people were clothed you did obviously um people were clothed but I I did um I did pay attention to but I I did um I did pay attention to but I I did um I did pay attention to those pages in your book I thought it those pages in your book I thought it those pages in your book I thought it was interesting that you put some um was interesting that you put some um was interesting that you put some um some dedicated uh passages in your book some dedicated uh passages in your book some dedicated uh passages in your book related to this and I think my publisher related to this and I think my publisher related to this and I think my publisher wanted that your publish wanted that it wanted that your publish wanted that it wanted that your publish wanted that it was not me it was like my publisher was not me it was like my publisher was not me it was like my publisher really wanted to have a little really wanted to have a little really wanted to have a little discussion about that so I was like okay discussion about that so I was like okay discussion about that so I was like okay well I think it you know it points to a well I think it you know it points to a well I think it you know it points to a larger theme which is I think for a lot larger theme which is I think for a lot larger theme which is I think for a lot of people who already do these practices

31:00of people who already do these practices of people who already do these practices um there's no shock there yeah um for um there's no shock there yeah um for um there's no shock there yeah um for people that do not do deliberate cold people that do not do deliberate cold people that do not do deliberate cold exposure or sauna I think that um you exposure or sauna I think that um you exposure or sauna I think that um you know there is this idea perhaps that oh know there is this idea perhaps that oh know there is this idea perhaps that oh you know these are um Traditions that you know these are um Traditions that you know these are um Traditions that are are kind of Fringe or that they're are are kind of Fringe or that they're are are kind of Fringe or that they're kind and I just I want to um cue that kind and I just I want to um cue that kind and I just I want to um cue that point because there's so many things point because there's so many things point because there's so many things that are happening right now in that are happening right now in that are happening right now in biomedical research and Medicine you biomedical research and Medicine you biomedical research and Medicine you know serious quality peer-reviewed know serious quality peer-reviewed know serious quality peer-reviewed studies published in excellent journals studies published in excellent journals studies published in excellent journals like C paper on things like deliberate like C paper on things like deliberate like C paper on things like deliberate cold exposure sauna um the use of cold exposure sauna um the use of cold exposure sauna um the use of particular supplements natural natural particular supplements natural natural particular supplements natural natural herbs and supplements I mean there's an herbs and supplements I mean there's an herbs and supplements I mean there's an entire branch of the National Institutes entire branch of the National Institutes entire branch of the National Institutes of Health in the United States dedicated of Health in the United States dedicated of Health in the United States dedicated just to the study of supplements and just to the study of supplements and just to the study of supplements and behavioral interventions for health like behavioral interventions for health like behavioral interventions for health like meditation and breath work really meditation and breath work really meditation and breath work really incredible it's really incredible and incredible it's really incredible and incredible it's really incredible and psychedelics of course being something psychedelics of course being something psychedelics of course being something that for a long time was part of a that for a long time was part of a that for a long time was part of a certain community and feel and now is certain community and feel and now is certain community and feel and now is being um frankly adopted by mainstream being um frankly adopted by mainstream being um frankly adopted by mainstream Med medicine even Pharma so it the the

32:00Med medicine even Pharma so it the the Med medicine even Pharma so it the the times are changing um and so uh yes I times are changing um and so uh yes I times are changing um and so uh yes I think it's important to know that um think it's important to know that um think it's important to know that um it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged to wear clothing so absolutely to wear clothing so absolutely to wear clothing so absolutely absolutely yeah yeah yeah and and one absolutely yeah yeah yeah and and one absolutely yeah yeah yeah and and one other thing that uh I wanted to to other thing that uh I wanted to to other thing that uh I wanted to to mention going back to your questions mention going back to your questions mention going back to your questions around with there were any observations around with there were any observations around with there were any observations in the studies which we really maybe in the studies which we really maybe in the studies which we really maybe haven't discussed yet and maybe it's in haven't discussed yet and maybe it's in haven't discussed yet and maybe it's in in the back of the the paper and not in the back of the the paper and not in the back of the the paper and not mentioned that much was one of the mentioned that much was one of the mentioned that much was one of the winter swimmers didn't have any brown winter swimmers didn't have any brown winter swimmers didn't have any brown fat when we measured him zero zero and fat when we measured him zero zero and fat when we measured him zero zero and uh in we do see this um in in in uh in we do see this um in in in uh in we do see this um in in in previous studies as well that some previous studies as well that some previous studies as well that some humans don't have any brown fat was he humans don't have any brown fat was he humans don't have any brown fat was he did he carry a lot of white fat atopus did he carry a lot of white fat atopus did he carry a lot of white fat atopus tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't tissue was he was he obese no he wasn't no he was not obese because that he no he was not obese because that he no he was not obese because that he would not have been in the study then oh would not have been in the study then oh would not have been in the study then oh right yes you mentioned this earlier right yes you mentioned this earlier right yes you mentioned this earlier forgive me no no fine but he was um but forgive me no no fine but he was um but forgive me no no fine but he was um but what I did observe before I knew what I did observe before I knew what I did observe before I knew that he didn't have any ground for was

33:00that he didn't have any ground for was that he didn't have any ground for was that during the cooling experiment where that during the cooling experiment where that during the cooling experiment where I cooled them for uh two hours before I cooled them for uh two hours before I cooled them for uh two hours before they go into the Pet City scanner uh he they go into the Pet City scanner uh he they go into the Pet City scanner uh he was not able to control his shivering was not able to control his shivering was not able to control his shivering like the winter swimmers uh could so he like the winter swimmers uh could so he like the winter swimmers uh could so he got he got very uh cold very easily uh got he got very uh cold very easily uh got he got very uh cold very easily uh compared to the others so and without I compared to the others so and without I compared to the others so and without I didn't know what was different about him didn't know what was different about him didn't know what was different about him but we could all all of me and the three but we could all all of me and the three but we could all all of me and the three others were working on the experiment we others were working on the experiment we others were working on the experiment we were like okay what's going on because were like okay what's going on because were like okay what's going on because we turned down the the temperature but we turned down the the temperature but we turned down the the temperature but he started like shivering and then we he started like shivering and then we he started like shivering and then we had to turn it up again and it was just had to turn it up again and it was just had to turn it up again and it was just all over the place the temperature it's all over the place the temperature it's all over the place the temperature it's not it wasn't that controlled like the not it wasn't that controlled like the not it wasn't that controlled like the others was pretty similar protocol I others was pretty similar protocol I others was pretty similar protocol I could just do pretty much the same could just do pretty much the same could just do pretty much the same because there were same size and also because there were same size and also because there were same size and also same gender so it it it was easier uh to same gender so it it it was easier uh to same gender so it it it was easier uh to like foresee what was going to happen like foresee what was going to happen like foresee what was going to happen and when will they start Shiver I and when will they start Shiver I and when will they start Shiver I quickly learned that but with this

34:00quickly learned that but with this quickly learned that but with this subject it was just with this uh subject it was just with this uh subject it was just with this uh volunteer was just very much different volunteer was just very much different volunteer was just very much different and then when we scanned him and didn't and then when we scanned him and didn't and then when we scanned him and didn't find any brown I I I didn't even think find any brown I I I didn't even think find any brown I I I didn't even think about it so when we scanned him and we about it so when we scanned him and we about it so when we scanned him and we didn't see anything I told the pet C didn't see anything I told the pet C didn't see anything I told the pet C people to like oh you put up the wrong people to like oh you put up the wrong people to like oh you put up the wrong uh scanning blame the technology yeah uh scanning blame the technology yeah uh scanning blame the technology yeah the technology it was like this scanning the technology it was like this scanning the technology it was like this scanning looked like the Thermon neutral day the looked like the Thermon neutral day the looked like the Thermon neutral day the therm comfortable day where we also therm comfortable day where we also therm comfortable day where we also scanned them to see if they have any scanned them to see if they have any scanned them to see if they have any brown fat so you have made a mistake I brown fat so you have made a mistake I brown fat so you have made a mistake I was pretty sure and they reanal an was pretty sure and they reanal an was pretty sure and they reanal an analyzed this um scanning and they just analyzed this um scanning and they just analyzed this um scanning and they just concluded well it the scanning was fine concluded well it the scanning was fine concluded well it the scanning was fine the experiment went well it was just the experiment went well it was just the experiment went well it was just that he didn't have any brown fat so he that he didn't have any brown fat so he that he didn't have any brown fat so he was like what we just in the paper was like what we just in the paper was like what we just in the paper called a a brown fat negative so he called a a brown fat negative so he called a a brown fat negative so he didn't have any and in in my studies it didn't have any and in in my studies it didn't have any and in in my studies it would be called a knockout so it didn't would be called a knockout so it didn't would be called a knockout so it didn't have any brown fat so what the have any brown fat so what the have any brown fat so what the observation with him and I think that observation with him and I think that observation with him and I think that would be that's interesting is that he would be that's interesting is that he would be that's interesting is that he both shivered very early on and didn't

35:00both shivered very early on and didn't both shivered very early on and didn't regulate his temperatures well he also regulate his temperatures well he also regulate his temperatures well he also told me that then he was like a five on told me that then he was like a five on told me that then he was like a five on the scale of how comfortable he felt the scale of how comfortable he felt the scale of how comfortable he felt with the cold um out of so it was from 1 with the cold um out of so it was from 1 with the cold um out of so it was from 1 to 10h and five being thermal to 10h and five being thermal to 10h and five being thermal comfortable and 10 being uh very uh cold comfortable and 10 being uh very uh cold comfortable and 10 being uh very uh cold uh and and one very hot so on this uh and and one very hot so on this uh and and one very hot so on this slight scale up and up and down and he slight scale up and up and down and he slight scale up and up and down and he he was like more up and down on this he was like more up and down on this he was like more up and down on this scale than any of the other it was an scale than any of the other it was an scale than any of the other it was an observation that I did um but we did see observation that I did um but we did see observation that I did um but we did see in his blood samples also that his blood in his blood samples also that his blood in his blood samples also that his blood samples looked a bit more like the samples looked a bit more like the samples looked a bit more like the control group um also his insulin levels control group um also his insulin levels control group um also his insulin levels were like the control group so a little were like the control group so a little were like the control group so a little bit higher than the other winter bit higher than the other winter bit higher than the other winter swimmers and he also had um a a a his swimmers and he also had um a a a his swimmers and he also had um a a a his glucose clearance was not as fast as um glucose clearance was not as fast as um glucose clearance was not as fast as um as the the other winter swimmers so he as the the other winter swimmers so he as the the other winter swimmers so he was like an outlier what we call it and

36:00was like an outlier what we call it and was like an outlier what we call it and in the analysis we also had to take him in the analysis we also had to take him in the analysis we also had to take him out of the analysis because he was an out of the analysis because he was an out of the analysis because he was an outlier um so the results showing that outlier um so the results showing that outlier um so the results showing that the brown fat ER is uh more efficiently the brown fat ER is uh more efficiently the brown fat ER is uh more efficiently activated in the winter swimmers is activated in the winter swimmers is activated in the winter swimmers is without him having him in that group but without him having him in that group but without him having him in that group but it didn't ruin this the study if we I it didn't ruin this the study if we I it didn't ruin this the study if we I tried to put him in in as well and tried to put him in in as well and tried to put him in in as well and didn't it didn't ruin the results or didn't it didn't ruin the results or didn't it didn't ruin the results or anything but just to to keep it more anything but just to to keep it more anything but just to to keep it more clear we put we took come out of the clear we put we took come out of the clear we put we took come out of the analysis yeah so he was a mutant a analysis yeah so he was a mutant a analysis yeah so he was a mutant a knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out knockout yeah and I'm sure they're out there um very interesting so if you there um very interesting so if you there um very interesting so if you shiver early um then perhaps you have shiver early um then perhaps you have shiver early um then perhaps you have less brown fat to begin with although less brown fat to begin with although less brown fat to begin with although it's hard to conclude from one person it's hard to conclude from one person it's hard to conclude from one person that's sort of the the the implication that's sort of the the the implication that's sort of the the the implication there oh you haven't adapted to the code there oh you haven't adapted to the code there oh you haven't adapted to the code so you should build that up yeah right so you should build that up yeah right so you should build that up yeah right so in addition to looking at regulation so in addition to looking at regulation so in addition to looking at regulation of blood sugar round of blood sugar round of blood sugar round fat metabolism and so on were there any fat metabolism and so on were there any fat metabolism and so on were there any markers that you examined in the markers that you examined in the markers that you examined in the deliberate cold exposure group as

37:00deliberate cold exposure group as deliberate cold exposure group as compared to controls um that reveal to compared to controls um that reveal to compared to controls um that reveal to you that deliberate cold exposure could you that deliberate cold exposure could you that deliberate cold exposure could have additional benefits um say for uh have additional benefits um say for uh have additional benefits um say for uh immune system function um or for any immune system function um or for any immune system function um or for any function for that matter yeah so for we function for that matter yeah so for we function for that matter yeah so for we looked at in inflammation of course we looked at in inflammation of course we looked at in inflammation of course we measure the outcome of blood pressure measure the outcome of blood pressure measure the outcome of blood pressure and so on but we also measured the I6 in and so on but we also measured the I6 in and so on but we also measured the I6 in the study just to see also an the study just to see also an the study just to see also an inflammatory anti-inflammatory marker so inflammatory anti-inflammatory marker so inflammatory anti-inflammatory marker so I6 went on and it also follows with the I6 went on and it also follows with the I6 went on and it also follows with the i 10 so that is like also very known in i 10 so that is like also very known in i 10 so that is like also very known in the literature so we measured that and I the literature so we measured that and I the literature so we measured that and I think it's very important to to think think it's very important to to think think it's very important to to think about the cold exposure and the heat about the cold exposure and the heat about the cold exposure and the heat exposure as something that then lowers exposure as something that then lowers exposure as something that then lowers the inflammation in the body and with if the inflammation in the body and with if the inflammation in the body and with if we can do that we will have an open door we can do that we will have an open door we can do that we will have an open door for um preventing lifestyle diseases for um preventing lifestyle diseases for um preventing lifestyle diseases right so for um type two diabetes but right so for um type two diabetes but right so for um type two diabetes but actually also for some mental diseases actually also for some mental diseases actually also for some mental diseases as well so as known as depression and as well so as known as depression and as well so as known as depression and anxiety and also Alzheimer's disease

38:00anxiety and also Alzheimer's disease anxiety and also Alzheimer's disease which are all Associated um in research which are all Associated um in research which are all Associated um in research also neuro research showing that that also neuro research showing that that also neuro research showing that that inflammation increases the risk of inflammation increases the risk of inflammation increases the risk of depression anxiety and Alzheimer's depression anxiety and Alzheimer's depression anxiety and Alzheimer's neurological diseases so if we can neurological diseases so if we can neurological diseases so if we can decrease inflammation in the body we decrease inflammation in the body we decrease inflammation in the body we will decrease our modern lifestyle will decrease our modern lifestyle will decrease our modern lifestyle diseases but also these increasing U um diseases but also these increasing U um diseases but also these increasing U um mental diseases that we see in these mental diseases that we see in these mental diseases that we see in these modern lifestyle times um so I think modern lifestyle times um so I think modern lifestyle times um so I think that that that it's I think it's very interesting that it's I think it's very interesting that it's I think it's very interesting that we can go out in nature and we can use we can go out in nature and we can use we can go out in nature and we can use these natural stressors and it I don't these natural stressors and it I don't these natural stressors and it I don't want to have it sound very romantic or want to have it sound very romantic or want to have it sound very romantic or anything it's just it's just exposure to anything it's just it's just exposure to anything it's just it's just exposure to temperature actually just to cold or to temperature actually just to cold or to temperature actually just to cold or to heat that is going to twik our body into heat that is going to twik our body into heat that is going to twik our body into a natural state again and and reset it a natural state again and and reset it a natural state again and and reset it where the the homeostasis the balance where the the homeostasis the balance where the the homeostasis the balance has is lost a bit so the body is going has is lost a bit so the body is going has is lost a bit so the body is going to repair itself in that way and I think to repair itself in that way and I think to repair itself in that way and I think it's beautiful that we can do that just it's beautiful that we can do that just it's beautiful that we can do that just just by changing the temperature of our just by changing the temperature of our just by changing the temperature of our body and although people are very scared

39:00body and although people are very scared body and although people are very scared of doing this because in our times we of doing this because in our times we of doing this because in our times we have been away from cold away from heat have been away from cold away from heat have been away from cold away from heat temperature for some for decades now um temperature for some for decades now um temperature for some for decades now um since we isolated our houses better and since we isolated our houses better and since we isolated our houses better and uh we are more sedentary we also sit uh we are more sedentary we also sit uh we are more sedentary we also sit more indoor we don't move as much so more indoor we don't move as much so more indoor we don't move as much so this very um modern sedentary lifestyle this very um modern sedentary lifestyle this very um modern sedentary lifestyle has made us more temperature comfortable has made us more temperature comfortable has made us more temperature comfortable just new neutral so no no wonder I mean just new neutral so no no wonder I mean just new neutral so no no wonder I mean that obesity is increasing we don't that obesity is increasing we don't that obesity is increasing we don't expose ourself to the naturales that we expose ourself to the naturales that we expose ourself to the naturales that we did earlier on um in in our evolvement did earlier on um in in our evolvement did earlier on um in in our evolvement but Al up until maybe the 70s the 60s but Al up until maybe the 70s the 60s but Al up until maybe the 70s the 60s where we started having more like uh where we started having more like uh where we started having more like uh comfortable Lifestyles right and obesity comfortable Lifestyles right and obesity comfortable Lifestyles right and obesity increases in the in the 80s we can see increases in the in the 80s we can see increases in the in the 80s we can see that from statistics so I think that if that from statistics so I think that if that from statistics so I think that if we can take in cold and Heat and you we can take in cold and Heat and you we can take in cold and Heat and you mentioned other things also before but mentioned other things also before but mentioned other things also before but of course exercise is very important

40:00of course exercise is very important of course exercise is very important here and also a bit of fasting actually here and also a bit of fasting actually here and also a bit of fasting actually because it all increases the hematic because it all increases the hematic because it all increases the hematic stress in the body so it's doesn't have stress in the body so it's doesn't have stress in the body so it's doesn't have to be uh other than natural stresses to to be uh other than natural stresses to to be uh other than natural stresses to the body which then could keep us in the body which then could keep us in the body which then could keep us in that Natural Balance again could we talk that Natural Balance again could we talk that Natural Balance again could we talk about what I refer to as the soberg about what I refer to as the soberg about what I refer to as the soberg principle which is to end on cold and principle which is to end on cold and principle which is to end on cold and the reason I called it the sober the reason I called it the sober the reason I called it the sober principles because um in reviewing oh by principles because um in reviewing oh by principles because um in reviewing oh by the way I wasn't a official reviewer of the way I wasn't a official reviewer of the way I wasn't a official reviewer of your paper but I mean in reading and um your paper but I mean in reading and um your paper but I mean in reading and um reviewing your paper for its after reviewing your paper for its after reviewing your paper for its after published Contents I noticed that you published Contents I noticed that you published Contents I noticed that you had people end on cold and this has been had people end on cold and this has been had people end on cold and this has been a longstanding debate in the the uh a longstanding debate in the the uh a longstanding debate in the the uh deliberate cold exposure Community deliberate cold exposure Community deliberate cold exposure Community should you warm up in a with a warm should you warm up in a with a warm should you warm up in a with a warm shower afterwards or get back in the shower afterwards or get back in the shower afterwards or get back in the sauna what should you end end on cold or sauna what should you end end on cold or sauna what should you end end on cold or end on Heat and the sober principal says end on Heat and the sober principal says end on Heat and the sober principal says end on cold as I understand it in order end on cold as I understand it in order end on cold as I understand it in order to force your body to heat itself back to force your body to heat itself back to force your body to heat itself back up and thereby increase metabolism up and thereby increase metabolism up and thereby increase metabolism further still is that right yes so when

41:00further still is that right yes so when further still is that right yes so when you when you end on the cold you you you when you end on the cold you you you when you end on the cold you you force your body to heat up by your and force your body to heat up by your and force your body to heat up by your and that will require that you activate you that will require that you activate you that will require that you activate you keep your brown fat activated and also keep your brown fat activated and also keep your brown fat activated and also your muscles which is a good thing it's your muscles which is a good thing it's your muscles which is a good thing it's a good collaboration to keep your a good collaboration to keep your a good collaboration to keep your thermogenesis up and that's like an an thermogenesis up and that's like an an thermogenesis up and that's like an an exercise even when you go home so in exercise even when you go home so in exercise even when you go home so in that way you don't have to think about that way you don't have to think about that way you don't have to think about your cold exposure dipping in in your your cold exposure dipping in in your your cold exposure dipping in in your plunge uh or open sea or what it is as plunge uh or open sea or what it is as plunge uh or open sea or what it is as just a an exercise that you do for one just a an exercise that you do for one just a an exercise that you do for one to two minutes and then it's over if you to two minutes and then it's over if you to two minutes and then it's over if you end on the cold you have an exercise for end on the cold you have an exercise for end on the cold you have an exercise for your body going on for hours afterwards your body going on for hours afterwards your body going on for hours afterwards and that's not only on your metabolism and that's not only on your metabolism and that's not only on your metabolism but it's also going to keep your but it's also going to keep your but it's also going to keep your neurotransmitters activated as well and neurotransmitters activated as well and neurotransmitters activated as well and increase that because your body is still increase that because your body is still increase that because your body is still cold so you need that those cold so you need that those cold so you need that those neurotransmitters to activate the brown neurotransmitters to activate the brown neurotransmitters to activate the brown fat as well so that's going to make your fat as well so that's going to make your fat as well so that's going to make your brown fat cells more efficient and also brown fat cells more efficient and also brown fat cells more efficient and also your muscle cells more efficient so your muscle cells more efficient so your muscle cells more efficient so increasing my mondria in the cells which increasing my mondria in the cells which increasing my mondria in the cells which will then generate heat very fast so if

42:00will then generate heat very fast so if will then generate heat very fast so if you have done this for a few times so you have done this for a few times so you have done this for a few times so maybe three four five times um being new maybe three four five times um being new maybe three four five times um being new to this but have tried it a few times to this but have tried it a few times to this but have tried it a few times you will notice a switch where you like you will notice a switch where you like you will notice a switch where you like feel that you get easily warmer and you feel that you get easily warmer and you feel that you get easily warmer and you can keep yourself warmer and that is can keep yourself warmer and that is can keep yourself warmer and that is also what we shown in in my study is also what we shown in in my study is also what we shown in in my study is that the the winter swimmers were that the the winter swimmers were that the the winter swimmers were physically uh warmer on the skin physically uh warmer on the skin physically uh warmer on the skin compared to the control group so they compared to the control group so they compared to the control group so they they they are out of the cold when they they are out of the cold when they they are out of the cold when they're out of the cold just relaxing they're out of the cold just relaxing they're out of the cold just relaxing and we tested this in in on the days and we tested this in in on the days and we tested this in in on the days where they were sleeping in the lab so where they were sleeping in the lab so where they were sleeping in the lab so we could see that they had a a more we could see that they had a a more we could see that they had a a more activation of the brown fat higher activation of the brown fat higher activation of the brown fat higher temperature so probably because they temperature so probably because they temperature so probably because they also loose heat uh they have high heat also loose heat uh they have high heat also loose heat uh they have high heat loss to the body compared to the control loss to the body compared to the control loss to the body compared to the control group um because they have a more group um because they have a more group um because they have a more vascular skin uh because of the contrast vascular skin uh because of the contrast vascular skin uh because of the contrast of cold and heat so they lose heat of cold and heat so they lose heat of cold and heat so they lose heat faster from the body during that day but faster from the body during that day but faster from the body during that day but is that a bad thing no probably not

43:00is that a bad thing no probably not is that a bad thing no probably not because that's going to keep your brown because that's going to keep your brown because that's going to keep your brown fat and your muscles a little bit fat and your muscles a little bit fat and your muscles a little bit activated so you will have to it it has activated so you will have to it it has activated so you will have to it it has to work to keep you warm I and I would to work to keep you warm I and I would to work to keep you warm I and I would hypothesize that it also might lead to hypothesize that it also might lead to hypothesize that it also might lead to some of the um subjectively reported some of the um subjectively reported some of the um subjectively reported improvements in sleep because in order improvements in sleep because in order improvements in sleep because in order to fall asleep you need your core body to fall asleep you need your core body to fall asleep you need your core body temperature to drop by about 1 to 3° yes temperature to drop by about 1 to 3° yes temperature to drop by about 1 to 3° yes so it's not just sufficient to be so it's not just sufficient to be so it's not just sufficient to be sleeping in a cold room and under the sleeping in a cold room and under the sleeping in a cold room and under the blanket you also need your body blanket you also need your body blanket you also need your body temperature to drop yes and so what temperature to drop yes and so what temperature to drop yes and so what you're um saying if I understand you're um saying if I understand you're um saying if I understand correctly is that by forcing by ending correctly is that by forcing by ending correctly is that by forcing by ending on cold and forcing oneself to heat up on cold and forcing oneself to heat up on cold and forcing oneself to heat up naturally um that increases the brown naturally um that increases the brown naturally um that increases the brown fat storage which I sort of see as a fat storage which I sort of see as a fat storage which I sort of see as a kind of like the oil in the candle yeah kind of like the oil in the candle yeah kind of like the oil in the candle yeah of the Furnace that is of the Furnace that is of the Furnace that is thermogenesis and thermogenesis and thermogenesis and that in turn leads to increased heat that in turn leads to increased heat that in turn leads to increased heat loss which people might think oh I don't loss which people might think oh I don't loss which people might think oh I don't want to lose heat from the body but want to lose heat from the body but want to lose heat from the body but there are times when you want lose heat there are times when you want lose heat there are times when you want lose heat from the body basically it sounds like from the body basically it sounds like from the body basically it sounds like what we want is to be a very efficient

44:00what we want is to be a very efficient what we want is to be a very efficient heating and cooling system yes that it's heating and cooling system yes that it's heating and cooling system yes that it's not about being cold or being hot it's not about being cold or being hot it's not about being cold or being hot it's really about keeping the system tuned really about keeping the system tuned really about keeping the system tuned well keeping the oil in the candle it's well keeping the oil in the candle it's well keeping the oil in the candle it's brown fat um functioning yeah what could brown fat um functioning yeah what could brown fat um functioning yeah what could I ask one question about um fed or I ask one question about um fed or I ask one question about um fed or fasted is there any rather are there any fasted is there any rather are there any fasted is there any rather are there any known benefits of doing deliberate cold known benefits of doing deliberate cold known benefits of doing deliberate cold exposure and oruna fasted uh versus um exposure and oruna fasted uh versus um exposure and oruna fasted uh versus um after a a meal say within the last hour after a a meal say within the last hour after a a meal say within the last hour or something of that sort I do my or something of that sort I do my or something of that sort I do my deliberate cold exposure first thing in deliberate cold exposure first thing in deliberate cold exposure first thing in the morning um so in general I'm fasted the morning um so in general I'm fasted the morning um so in general I'm fasted because I don't eat until a little bit because I don't eat until a little bit because I don't eat until a little bit later in the day yeah uh but what's later in the day yeah uh but what's later in the day yeah uh but what's known about that and was that looked at known about that and was that looked at known about that and was that looked at in your study I know you measured in your study I know you measured in your study I know you measured glucose but that was as a separate um glucose but that was as a separate um glucose but that was as a separate um test away from the cold away from the test away from the cold away from the test away from the cold away from the cold yeah but I also tested glucose on cold yeah but I also tested glucose on cold yeah but I also tested glucose on the days on the cold so we measured that the days on the cold so we measured that the days on the cold so we measured that as well on on the cooling days um spe as well on on the cooling days um spe as well on on the cooling days um spe specifically on fasting and fat I don't specifically on fasting and fat I don't specifically on fasting and fat I don't know uh I don't think that I have seen

45:00know uh I don't think that I have seen know uh I don't think that I have seen studies specifically on this okay um studies specifically on this okay um studies specifically on this okay um more science needed um a number of more science needed um a number of more science needed um a number of people ask about the use of deliberate people ask about the use of deliberate people ask about the use of deliberate cold exposure to offset some of the cold exposure to offset some of the cold exposure to offset some of the symptoms of various diseases now here symptoms of various diseases now here symptoms of various diseases now here we're not talking about curing disease we're not talking about curing disease we're not talking about curing disease we're talking about offsetting symptoms we're talking about offsetting symptoms we're talking about offsetting symptoms um one question I've seen quite often is um one question I've seen quite often is um one question I've seen quite often is whether or not people with rod syndrome whether or not people with rod syndrome whether or not people with rod syndrome this is a syndrome my high school this is a syndrome my high school this is a syndrome my high school girlfriend had this syndrome and I'll girlfriend had this syndrome and I'll girlfriend had this syndrome and I'll never forget uh we went at a a school never forget uh we went at a a school never forget uh we went at a a school dance together and um this was when we dance together and um this was when we dance together and um this was when we first started dating and um she had R first started dating and um she had R first started dating and um she had R noes which leads to very poor blood flow noes which leads to very poor blood flow noes which leads to very poor blood flow to the the uh the extremities and um and to the the uh the extremities and um and to the the uh the extremities and um and she was very cold so she left to go to she was very cold so she left to go to she was very cold so she left to go to the bathroom and warm up her hands in the bathroom and warm up her hands in the bathroom and warm up her hands in the warm water and I was left standing the warm water and I was left standing the warm water and I was left standing there at the dance and people came up to there at the dance and people came up to there at the dance and people came up to me and asked you know why I was there me and asked you know why I was there me and asked you know why I was there and who I was there with and I kept and who I was there with and I kept and who I was there with and I kept telling them who I was with and they telling them who I was with and they telling them who I was with and they didn't believe me cuz they couldn't didn't believe me cuz they couldn't didn't believe me cuz they couldn't believe that she would be with me made believe that she would be with me made believe that she would be with me made total sense if you knew me at the time total sense if you knew me at the time total sense if you knew me at the time um I was I I was way out of my league

46:00um I was I I was way out of my league um I was I I was way out of my league with her um at the time I like to think with her um at the time I like to think with her um at the time I like to think eventually I caught up but in any case eventually I caught up but in any case eventually I caught up but in any case um uh she was in the bathroom for about um uh she was in the bathroom for about um uh she was in the bathroom for about an hour so at one point I did consider an hour so at one point I did consider an hour so at one point I did consider the possibility that she had just left the possibility that she had just left the possibility that she had just left but indeed she hadn't she warmed her but indeed she hadn't she warmed her but indeed she hadn't she warmed her hands back up but people with rain no hands back up but people with rain no hands back up but people with rain no suffer from this um from this thing of suffer from this um from this thing of suffer from this um from this thing of very very cold extremities um their very very cold extremities um their very very cold extremities um their fingertips will even turn blue um you fingertips will even turn blue um you fingertips will even turn blue um you know as if they were starting to get know as if they were starting to get know as if they were starting to get frostbitten it's quite dramatic um and frostbitten it's quite dramatic um and frostbitten it's quite dramatic um and that question gets asked whether or not that question gets asked whether or not that question gets asked whether or not there's any use of cold to try and there's any use of cold to try and there's any use of cold to try and increase the elasticity the plasticity increase the elasticity the plasticity increase the elasticity the plasticity of the of the uh small capillaries and of the of the uh small capillaries and of the of the uh small capillaries and vessels by everything you've described vessels by everything you've described vessels by everything you've described um up until now it seems like that would um up until now it seems like that would um up until now it seems like that would be a logical thing to do um and in be a logical thing to do um and in be a logical thing to do um and in addition to that whether or not people addition to that whether or not people addition to that whether or not people with autoimmune conditions people with with autoimmune conditions people with with autoimmune conditions people with um any other types of conditions are um any other types of conditions are um any other types of conditions are known to benefit from deliberate cold known to benefit from deliberate cold known to benefit from deliberate cold exposure I'm not aware of any studies exposure I'm not aware of any studies exposure I'm not aware of any studies but I get asked about this a lot and but I get asked about this a lot and but I get asked about this a lot and there a lot of questions about this for there a lot of questions about this for there a lot of questions about this for you in in the Twitter feed yeah thank

47:00you in in the Twitter feed yeah thank you in in the Twitter feed yeah thank you for those questions and I get them you for those questions and I get them you for those questions and I get them as well on social media and I have to as well on social media and I have to as well on social media and I have to say that I I haven't seen any studies say that I I haven't seen any studies say that I I haven't seen any studies directed on this outcome on measuring directed on this outcome on measuring directed on this outcome on measuring Rono syndrome um I do know that it's Rono syndrome um I do know that it's Rono syndrome um I do know that it's it's a it's not that rare actually a it's a it's not that rare actually a it's a it's not that rare actually a problem and I know that many women or problem and I know that many women or problem and I know that many women or more me women than men uh suffer from more me women than men uh suffer from more me women than men uh suffer from this um but logically it would help them this um but logically it would help them this um but logically it would help them if they exposed their hands to cold and if they exposed their hands to cold and if they exposed their hands to cold and also heat to make the V it more vascular also heat to make the V it more vascular also heat to make the V it more vascular but and I have heard from people saying but and I have heard from people saying but and I have heard from people saying that it had helped them but also heard that it had helped them but also heard that it had helped them but also heard for some others saying it didn't help for some others saying it didn't help for some others saying it didn't help them so studies are needed on this them so studies are needed on this them so studies are needed on this specific topic I think mhm I hurt my specific topic I think mhm I hurt my specific topic I think mhm I hurt my hands when I go into the co and I don't hands when I go into the co and I don't hands when I go into the co and I don't have this syndrome at all uh but I keep have this syndrome at all uh but I keep have this syndrome at all uh but I keep my hands above the water you do yeah and my hands above the water you do yeah and my hands above the water you do yeah and I do that um often I take a little bit I do that um often I take a little bit I do that um often I take a little bit of a swim and then of course I have to of a swim and then of course I have to of a swim and then of course I have to to have my hands in the water uh but it to have my hands in the water uh but it to have my hands in the water uh but it helps me when I then get back to the Dy

48:00helps me when I then get back to the Dy helps me when I then get back to the Dy um and then take my hands off because um and then take my hands off because um and then take my hands off because then I can stand there for a little bit then I can stand there for a little bit then I can stand there for a little bit and get my one to two minutes exposure and get my one to two minutes exposure and get my one to two minutes exposure uh and then I can go up because then uh and then I can go up because then uh and then I can go up because then otherwise that would stop me from being otherwise that would stop me from being otherwise that would stop me from being in the water enough time that I as long in the water enough time that I as long in the water enough time that I as long as I I would like to so if people suffer as I I would like to so if people suffer as I I would like to so if people suffer from having this pain in the fingers and from having this pain in the fingers and from having this pain in the fingers and it it can be very intense so just take it it can be very intense so just take it it can be very intense so just take the hands up a bit from the water and uh the hands up a bit from the water and uh the hands up a bit from the water and uh and that's going to help you also boots and that's going to help you also boots and that's going to help you also boots neoprene boots it's going to help on the neoprene boots it's going to help on the neoprene boots it's going to help on the feet some people have the hurt um feel feet some people have the hurt um feel feet some people have the hurt um feel the pain in the feet and or in the the pain in the feet and or in the the pain in the feet and or in the ankles and that's going to help them ankles and that's going to help them ankles and that's going to help them also a little bit okay so there is no also a little bit okay so there is no also a little bit okay so there is no problem with keeping hands out or feet problem with keeping hands out or feet problem with keeping hands out or feet in uh near Prim booties if people feel in uh near Prim booties if people feel in uh near Prim booties if people feel the need to do that if that's what the the need to do that if that's what the the need to do that if that's what the if pain of the hands or feet is a if pain of the hands or feet is a if pain of the hands or feet is a barrier for people doing uh deliberate barrier for people doing uh deliberate barrier for people doing uh deliberate cold exposure then it seems it would be cold exposure then it seems it would be cold exposure then it seems it would be okay to do uh to keep hands out or to okay to do uh to keep hands out or to okay to do uh to keep hands out or to keep your feet in yes because then you

49:00keep your feet in yes because then you keep your feet in yes because then you you do get the exposure uh but of course you do get the exposure uh but of course you do get the exposure uh but of course hands and feet are very potent uh places hands and feet are very potent uh places hands and feet are very potent uh places in your body to get a fast activation uh in your body to get a fast activation uh in your body to get a fast activation uh of your nervous system of course but if of your nervous system of course but if of your nervous system of course but if you can just you can also just dip them you can just you can also just dip them you can just you can also just dip them and then take them off it's going still and then take them off it's going still and then take them off it's going still going to activate that but you have your going to activate that but you have your going to activate that but you have your full body is covered in in the full body is covered in in the full body is covered in in the co-receptors you have a full activation co-receptors you have a full activation co-receptors you have a full activation anyways so you you are providing very anyways so you you are providing very anyways so you you are providing very reassuring information to people CU I reassuring information to people CU I reassuring information to people CU I know a number of people that do not like know a number of people that do not like know a number of people that do not like to put their hands in I find that the to put their hands in I find that the to put their hands in I find that the more of my body I get in the more more of my body I get in the more more of my body I get in the more comfortable I am psych I don't know if comfortable I am psych I don't know if comfortable I am psych I don't know if it's psychologically Andor it's psychologically Andor it's psychologically Andor physiologically I find that if where physiologically I find that if where physiologically I find that if where there's an interface between the water there's an interface between the water there's an interface between the water and the cold it's most uncomfortable so and the cold it's most uncomfortable so and the cold it's most uncomfortable so I prefer to just get everything under I I prefer to just get everything under I I prefer to just get everything under I keep my head out although I these days keep my head out although I these days keep my head out although I these days I've been dunking all the way in and I've been dunking all the way in and I've been dunking all the way in and then coming out and then dunking once then coming out and then dunking once then coming out and then dunking once more with my head under before I get out more with my head under before I get out more with my head under before I get out after the the plunge um that raises a after the the plunge um that raises a after the the plunge um that raises a different question now we're getting different question now we're getting different question now we're getting into kind of the practicalities of into kind of the practicalities of into kind of the practicalities of deliberate cold exposure which I think

50:00deliberate cold exposure which I think deliberate cold exposure which I think are important um sometimes I'll are important um sometimes I'll are important um sometimes I'll experience and I hear from a lot of experience and I hear from a lot of experience and I hear from a lot of people that they'll get a kind of back people that they'll get a kind of back people that they'll get a kind of back of the head headache at the interface of of the head headache at the interface of of the head headache at the interface of the of the water um you know when the of the water um you know when the of the water um you know when they're in doing cold immersion to the they're in doing cold immersion to the they're in doing cold immersion to the neck um okay I assume this has to do neck um okay I assume this has to do neck um okay I assume this has to do with blood flow that there's Vaso with blood flow that there's Vaso with blood flow that there's Vaso constriction right up until the neck and constriction right up until the neck and constriction right up until the neck and in the region surrounding it but that in the region surrounding it but that in the region surrounding it but that maybe there's still blood flow to the maybe there's still blood flow to the maybe there's still blood flow to the head but do we know what the origin of head but do we know what the origin of head but do we know what the origin of these um headaches is and again this these um headaches is and again this these um headaches is and again this doesn't happen for everybody but some doesn't happen for everybody but some doesn't happen for everybody but some people do experience them okay yeah I people do experience them okay yeah I people do experience them okay yeah I haven't really heard about that one haven't really heard about that one haven't really heard about that one specifically um so but I would say that specifically um so but I would say that specifically um so but I would say that there are different reasons for maybe there are different reasons for maybe there are different reasons for maybe keeping your head out of the water but keeping your head out of the water but keeping your head out of the water but it seems like maybe for some that could it seems like maybe for some that could it seems like maybe for some that could be a reason for like just getting like a be a reason for like just getting like a be a reason for like just getting like a quick head dunk going all the way in quick head dunk going all the way in quick head dunk going all the way in once that's what I've started doing to once that's what I've started doing to once that's what I've started doing to eliminate I I wasn't getting headaches eliminate I I wasn't getting headaches eliminate I I wasn't getting headaches but I could I noticed that interface and but I could I noticed that interface and but I could I noticed that interface and and I wasn't in the rest of the and I wasn't in the rest of the and I wasn't in the rest of the experience it so much experience of it experience it so much experience of it experience it so much experience of it so much so I started dunking all the way so much so I started dunking all the way so much so I started dunking all the way in I noticed in some of the photos that

51:00in I noticed in some of the photos that in I noticed in some of the photos that you've put out and in your book that you've put out and in your book that you've put out and in your book that you'll sometimes wear a cap yeah while you'll sometimes wear a cap yeah while you'll sometimes wear a cap yeah while you go in yeah okay and well it comes you go in yeah okay and well it comes you go in yeah okay and well it comes from uh different reasons uh so let's from uh different reasons uh so let's from uh different reasons uh so let's talk about some of the physiological talk about some of the physiological talk about some of the physiological reasons so when you submerge in cold reasons so when you submerge in cold reasons so when you submerge in cold water up to the neck um Studies have water up to the neck um Studies have water up to the neck um Studies have shown and this is from Denmark studies shown and this is from Denmark studies shown and this is from Denmark studies from Bia hospital um that when you from Bia hospital um that when you from Bia hospital um that when you submerge into cold water up to the neck submerge into cold water up to the neck submerge into cold water up to the neck at zer de uh so 0° celsus very cold um at zer de uh so 0° celsus very cold um at zer de uh so 0° celsus very cold um you will have a decreased blood flow to you will have a decreased blood flow to you will have a decreased blood flow to the brain by around 30 to 40% and makes the brain by around 30 to 40% and makes the brain by around 30 to 40% and makes sense because you activate the sense because you activate the sense because you activate the sympathetic nervous system uh and and sympathetic nervous system uh and and sympathetic nervous system uh and and therefore you will have a less blood therefore you will have a less blood therefore you will have a less blood flow to the brain makes you maybe a flow to the brain makes you maybe a flow to the brain makes you maybe a little bit disser and proof again that little bit disser and proof again that little bit disser and proof again that you're you need a heart more than a you're you need a heart more than a you're you need a heart more than a brain because when the sympathetic brain because when the sympathetic brain because when the sympathetic nervous system gets activated uh blood nervous system gets activated uh blood nervous system gets activated uh blood flow is maintained to the heart to keep flow is maintained to the heart to keep flow is maintained to the heart to keep you alive but obviously taken away from you alive but obviously taken away from you alive but obviously taken away from the brain to keep you from thinking the brain to keep you from thinking the brain to keep you from thinking that's why it's hard to think when that's why it's hard to think when that's why it's hard to think when you're stressed you're stressed you're stressed yeah well the muscles and then and your yeah well the muscles and then and your yeah well the muscles and then and your vital organs need to you have to be able

52:00vital organs need to you have to be able vital organs need to you have to be able to run away from that tiger right did to run away from that tiger right did to run away from that tiger right did the rationale makes total sense and who the rationale makes total sense and who the rationale makes total sense and who am I to disagree with Mother Nature am I to disagree with Mother Nature am I to disagree with Mother Nature right well but yeah so one of the right well but yeah so one of the right well but yeah so one of the reasons being that you should keep your reasons being that you should keep your reasons being that you should keep your head out of the water is that you could head out of the water is that you could head out of the water is that you could increase that uh decrease in blood flow increase that uh decrease in blood flow increase that uh decrease in blood flow to the brain further if you dunk the to the brain further if you dunk the to the brain further if you dunk the head so there's just a very nice paper head so there's just a very nice paper head so there's just a very nice paper from um from a a research group in from um from a a research group in from um from a a research group in Canada where they have collectively Canada where they have collectively Canada where they have collectively looked at different papers where they H looked at different papers where they H looked at different papers where they H compared heat loss in a group in the compared heat loss in a group in the compared heat loss in a group in the papers where they dunk the head and papers where they dunk the head and papers where they dunk the head and compared to heat losss uh submerging up compared to heat losss uh submerging up compared to heat losss uh submerging up to the neck to see how much extra heat to the neck to see how much extra heat to the neck to see how much extra heat do we lose from our core when we dunk do we lose from our core when we dunk do we lose from our core when we dunk the head so and I think it's very the head so and I think it's very the head so and I think it's very interesting that if you submerge up to interesting that if you submerge up to interesting that if you submerge up to the neck you have a heat loss of 11% the neck you have a heat loss of 11% the neck you have a heat loss of 11% from the body core and when you then uh from the body core and when you then uh from the body core and when you then uh also dunk head you will increase that also dunk head you will increase that also dunk head you will increase that heat loss rate by

53:00heat loss rate by heat loss rate by 36% so that mean I'm not saying that I'm 36% so that mean I'm not saying that I'm 36% so that mean I'm not saying that I'm not I'm not here to say what is right not I'm not here to say what is right not I'm not here to say what is right and what is wrong I just think that and what is wrong I just think that and what is wrong I just think that people should know the information so people should know the information so people should know the information so they can for themselves evaluate what is they can for themselves evaluate what is they can for themselves evaluate what is best for them but if you increase your best for them but if you increase your best for them but if you increase your heat loss rate by 36% from your core heat loss rate by 36% from your core heat loss rate by 36% from your core that's going to increase your after drop that's going to increase your after drop that's going to increase your after drop which we touched upon a little bit which we touched upon a little bit which we touched upon a little bit earlier even further so that's meaning earlier even further so that's meaning earlier even further so that's meaning that you are closer to hypothermia than that you are closer to hypothermia than that you are closer to hypothermia than you are if you just submerge up to the you are if you just submerge up to the you are if you just submerge up to the neck so you should really think about neck so you should really think about neck so you should really think about whether this is like something that it whether this is like something that it whether this is like something that it you want to do or if it's just better you want to do or if it's just better you want to do or if it's just better for you not to get that cold in your for you not to get that cold in your for you not to get that cold in your core the beanie is also because I have a core the beanie is also because I have a core the beanie is also because I have a little bit of sensitive ears so it little bit of sensitive ears so it little bit of sensitive ears so it meaning that if there's wind and because meaning that if there's wind and because meaning that if there's wind and because we swim in the open sea in Denmark we we swim in the open sea in Denmark we we swim in the open sea in Denmark we have a lot of wind our wind our have a lot of wind our wind our have a lot of wind our wind our conditions are just very rainy very conditions are just very rainy very conditions are just very rainy very windy and when the temperature is also windy and when the temperature is also windy and when the temperature is also freezing you could get this um what is

54:00freezing you could get this um what is freezing you could get this um what is that called um so very cold and light that called um so very cold and light that called um so very cold and light headed just from wind so if you also headed just from wind so if you also headed just from wind so if you also submerging into cold water and you then submerging into cold water and you then submerging into cold water and you then get up you could you will get a brain get up you could you will get a brain get up you could you will get a brain freeze immediately so it is enough to freeze immediately so it is enough to freeze immediately so it is enough to just go up to the neck wear a beanie to just go up to the neck wear a beanie to just go up to the neck wear a beanie to just not get dizzy also because the the just not get dizzy also because the the just not get dizzy also because the the um the heat loss is increased of course um the heat loss is increased of course um the heat loss is increased of course but also the blood flow to the brain has but also the blood flow to the brain has but also the blood flow to the brain has decreased so the beanie will keep you a decreased so the beanie will keep you a decreased so the beanie will keep you a little bit warmer so you can stay for little bit warmer so you can stay for little bit warmer so you can stay for one to two minutes so it's just a way of one to two minutes so it's just a way of one to two minutes so it's just a way of like getting around some of the like getting around some of the like getting around some of the conditions also so people can choose conditions also so people can choose conditions also so people can choose that if they they feel that but it's that if they they feel that but it's that if they they feel that but it's quite normal to do in in Scandinavia quite normal to do in in Scandinavia quite normal to do in in Scandinavia where aini love it and um so for those where aini love it and um so for those where aini love it and um so for those of you afraid of doing a two-minute cold of you afraid of doing a two-minute cold of you afraid of doing a two-minute cold shower what uh Dr sber just described uh shower what uh Dr sber just described uh shower what uh Dr sber just described uh let's uh you see how um she and others let's uh you see how um she and others let's uh you see how um she and others are capable of doing things far harder are capable of doing things far harder are capable of doing things far harder than that um when the way you describe than that um when the way you describe than that um when the way you describe it with the cold wind and Scandinavia it with the cold wind and Scandinavia it with the cold wind and Scandinavia and uh um is is quite striking it along and uh um is is quite striking it along and uh um is is quite striking it along the lines of covering the head um

55:00the lines of covering the head um the lines of covering the head um there's this um seemingly there's this um seemingly there's this um seemingly paradoxical uh thing of people going paradoxical uh thing of people going paradoxical uh thing of people going into hot saunas and wearing wool caps into hot saunas and wearing wool caps into hot saunas and wearing wool caps you know if you go to a or you go to uh you know if you go to a or you go to uh you know if you go to a or you go to uh auna and there are people who are um auna and there are people who are um auna and there are people who are um well from Eastern Europe or typically or well from Eastern Europe or typically or well from Eastern Europe or typically or Finland or um Russia or Ukraine or Finland or um Russia or Ukraine or Finland or um Russia or Ukraine or elsewhere what you'll see is that many elsewhere what you'll see is that many elsewhere what you'll see is that many of them are wearing wool caps in the of them are wearing wool caps in the of them are wearing wool caps in the sauna which many many people think is to sauna which many many people think is to sauna which many many people think is to make it hotter that's actually not the make it hotter that's actually not the make it hotter that's actually not the case it actually insulates you from the case it actually insulates you from the case it actually insulates you from the heat environment the urg the sense of heat environment the urg the sense of heat environment the urg the sense of urgency to get out of the hot sauna is a urgency to get out of the hot sauna is a urgency to get out of the hot sauna is a brain driven mechanism and so um the brain driven mechanism and so um the brain driven mechanism and so um the reason that people wear wool hats in the reason that people wear wool hats in the reason that people wear wool hats in the sauna is it actually lets you stay in sauna is it actually lets you stay in sauna is it actually lets you stay in the sauna longer um because it takes a the sauna longer um because it takes a the sauna longer um because it takes a lot of heat to the skin before you feel lot of heat to the skin before you feel lot of heat to the skin before you feel that you you have quote unquote have to that you you have quote unquote have to that you you have quote unquote have to get out whereas so when you insulate the get out whereas so when you insulate the get out whereas so when you insulate the brain um you don't get that signal um brain um you don't get that signal um brain um you don't get that signal um it's pretty interesting I've tried this it's pretty interesting I've tried this it's pretty interesting I've tried this before just by putting a towel over my before just by putting a towel over my before just by putting a towel over my head in the sauna and you can stay in head in the sauna and you can stay in head in the sauna and you can stay in there you much more easily and for for

56:00there you much more easily and for for there you much more easily and for for much longer you know as we talk about much longer you know as we talk about much longer you know as we talk about these different stimuli for um the these different stimuli for um the these different stimuli for um the hormetic response the adaptation dist hormetic response the adaptation dist hormetic response the adaptation dist stress you know it occurs to me that the stress you know it occurs to me that the stress you know it occurs to me that the the big ones in our evolutionary history the big ones in our evolutionary history the big ones in our evolutionary history have been light right I mean you were have been light right I mean you were have been light right I mean you were talking about seasonal changes um we talking about seasonal changes um we talking about seasonal changes um we know there especially as you go up to know there especially as you go up to know there especially as you go up to Nordic countries there are seasonal Nordic countries there are seasonal Nordic countries there are seasonal changes in the amount of Light by time changes in the amount of Light by time changes in the amount of Light by time of year dramatic ones in of year dramatic ones in of year dramatic ones in [Music] [Music] [Music] fact fact fact weing weing weing free chasing Dreams by the free chasing Dreams by the free chasing Dreams by the Sea e of in the just you and of in the just you and me photographs and shades of me photographs and shades of me photographs and shades of gold stories that we' never gold stories that we' never gold stories that we' never told Noor that never grow in this heart

57:00told Noor that never grow in this heart told Noor that never grow in this heart there there there always time moves on but we stay here in always time moves on but we stay here in always time moves on but we stay here in the moment Crystal Clear Echoes of the the moment Crystal Clear Echoes of the the moment Crystal Clear Echoes of the Yer and arts we hold them Yer and arts we hold them Yer and arts we hold them near the in the light lost in Whispers near the in the light lost in Whispers near the in the light lost in Whispers of the night in the silence we take bre of the night in the silence we take bre of the night in the silence we take bre holding TOS through streets TOS through streets neon silent Whispers tals of war in the neon silent Whispers tals of war in the neon silent Whispers tals of war in the dark secret show in the I dark secret show in the I dark secret show in the I love time moves on we love time moves on we love time moves on we here in the moment Crystal Clear Echoes

58:00here in the moment Crystal Clear Echoes here in the moment Crystal Clear Echoes off the off the off the Y in arts we hold them near memories in the light lost in near memories in the light lost in Whispers of the night in the silence we Whispers of the night in the silence we Whispers of the night in the silence we take right holding on to what right in take right holding on to what right in take right holding on to what right in the Twilight Shadows play awful Whispers the Twilight Shadows play awful Whispers the Twilight Shadows play awful Whispers TS of w in the hearts we find TS of w in the hearts we find TS of w in the hearts we find I in the dawn we'll never stemies in the light lost in whiskers of stemies in the light lost in whiskers of night in the silence we night in the silence we night in the silence we take holding on to what f as the face take holding on to what f as the face take holding on to what f as the face turn into ears through the laughter

59:00turn into ears through the laughter turn into ears through the laughter through the tears in the Echo through the tears in the Echo through the tears in the Echo alls in these dreams we Face our alls in these dreams we Face our alls in these dreams we Face our [Music] [Music] fears to the in the ankles in the ankles alls in these dreams we Face our [Music] Fe less so at the equator of course yeah Fe less so at the equator of course yeah Fe less so at the equator of course yeah um light temperature food movement it um light temperature food movement it um light temperature food movement it and it it's sort of interesting and and and it it's sort of interesting and and and it it's sort of interesting and and at the same time perhaps it should have at the same time perhaps it should have at the same time perhaps it should have been obvious to us that there are

1:00been obvious to us that there are been obvious to us that there are stimula that our bodies have evolve to stimula that our bodies have evolve to stimula that our bodies have evolve to adapt to in very powerful ways and so adapt to in very powerful ways and so adapt to in very powerful ways and so the idea that temperature heat and cold the idea that temperature heat and cold the idea that temperature heat and cold could evoke these tremendous could evoke these tremendous could evoke these tremendous physiological changes that are physiological changes that are physiological changes that are beneficial for us probably shouldn't beneficial for us probably shouldn't beneficial for us probably shouldn't surprise us at all I mean I mean this is surprise us at all I mean I mean this is surprise us at all I mean I mean this is why we I mean these are not um ESO why we I mean these are not um ESO why we I mean these are not um ESO esoteric mechanisms they're actually the esoteric mechanisms they're actually the esoteric mechanisms they're actually the the foundational mechanisms by which our the foundational mechanisms by which our the foundational mechanisms by which our our body and the bodies of other animals our body and the bodies of other animals our body and the bodies of other animals adapt um so I do have a question about adapt um so I do have a question about adapt um so I do have a question about the uh different ways that people could the uh different ways that people could the uh different ways that people could approach deliberate cold exposure so for approach deliberate cold exposure so for approach deliberate cold exposure so for instance instance instance um children uh I've been to Bas where um children uh I've been to Bas where um children uh I've been to Bas where they're kids you know six or seven years they're kids you know six or seven years they're kids you know six or seven years old with their parents at the B um and old with their parents at the B um and old with their parents at the B um and so they're in hot sauna I'm not so they're in hot sauna I'm not so they're in hot sauna I'm not suggesting people do this if they're if suggesting people do this if they're if suggesting people do this if they're if they're not you know adapted to it and they're not you know adapted to it and they're not you know adapted to it and you know talk to your parents kids and you know talk to your parents kids and you know talk to your parents kids and talk to your kids parents um talk to talk to your kids parents um talk to talk to your kids parents um talk to your doctors um but is remarkable I mean your doctors um but is remarkable I mean your doctors um but is remarkable I mean uh children doing sauna from a young age

1:01uh children doing sauna from a young age uh children doing sauna from a young age or deliberate cold exposure uh are there or deliberate cold exposure uh are there or deliberate cold exposure uh are there any data on this and is it safe assuming any data on this and is it safe assuming any data on this and is it safe assuming that you know obviously that they can that you know obviously that they can that you know obviously that they can swim and or they're doing this in a in a swim and or they're doing this in a in a swim and or they're doing this in a in a tub or shower um and then I'd also like tub or shower um and then I'd also like tub or shower um and then I'd also like to ask you about are there any to ask you about are there any to ask you about are there any additional male female differences I additional male female differences I additional male female differences I know your study focused M um on men but know your study focused M um on men but know your study focused M um on men but um other Studies have focused on both um other Studies have focused on both um other Studies have focused on both and you of course um are a woman and can and you of course um are a woman and can and you of course um are a woman and can attest to your own experience with this attest to your own experience with this attest to your own experience with this um so children men women um differences um so children men women um differences um so children men women um differences there in terms of protocols is there there in terms of protocols is there there in terms of protocols is there anything that people should build into anything that people should build into anything that people should build into the structure of of their deliberate the structure of of their deliberate the structure of of their deliberate cold exposure that's unique to that uh cold exposure that's unique to that uh cold exposure that's unique to that uh so yeah so this was on cold exposure so so yeah so this was on cold exposure so so yeah so this was on cold exposure so um yeah I think that um starting with um yeah I think that um starting with um yeah I think that um starting with the the question about children um I the the question about children um I the the question about children um I think that it's important to to think think that it's important to to think think that it's important to to think about as children are smaller than about as children are smaller than about as children are smaller than adults so we cannot really completely adults so we cannot really completely adults so we cannot really completely transfer all information and the transfer all information and the transfer all information and the benefits and also protocols for how long benefits and also protocols for how long benefits and also protocols for how long and and and stuff like that to children

1:02and and and stuff like that to children and and and stuff like that to children we cannot do that because they are just we cannot do that because they are just we cannot do that because they are just smaller in mass and one study that smaller in mass and one study that smaller in mass and one study that actually um proves this is a study where actually um proves this is a study where actually um proves this is a study where they have compared heat loss uh in um they have compared heat loss uh in um they have compared heat loss uh in um children boys who were 12 years old uh children boys who were 12 years old uh children boys who were 12 years old uh compared to um adults um men and looked compared to um adults um men and looked compared to um adults um men and looked at the heat lws of the core temperature at the heat lws of the core temperature at the heat lws of the core temperature and exposed them to a one or one or two and exposed them to a one or one or two and exposed them to a one or one or two minutes um cold exposure or immersion up minutes um cold exposure or immersion up minutes um cold exposure or immersion up to the neck and what they saw was that to the neck and what they saw was that to the neck and what they saw was that the the the boys in this study could the the the boys in this study could the the the boys in this study could actually defend their core temperature actually defend their core temperature actually defend their core temperature in same way as the adults could but they in same way as the adults could but they in same way as the adults could but they had to use their muscles way faster so had to use their muscles way faster so had to use their muscles way faster so it means that they couldn't stay for as it means that they couldn't stay for as it means that they couldn't stay for as long uh and they use more energy to long uh and they use more energy to long uh and they use more energy to defend their core temperature compared defend their core temperature compared defend their core temperature compared to the to the adults but for one minute to the to the adults but for one minute to the to the adults but for one minute it seems that they could actually com um it seems that they could actually com um it seems that they could actually com um but they will be colder when they then

1:03but they will be colder when they then but they will be colder when they then come out because they are smaller in come out because they are smaller in come out because they are smaller in their Mass to their ratio right so it their Mass to their ratio right so it their Mass to their ratio right so it means that if the surface is so large on means that if the surface is so large on means that if the surface is so large on children and their mass and muscles children and their mass and muscles children and their mass and muscles being smaller to that ratio it means being smaller to that ratio it means being smaller to that ratio it means that they can be in the water uh less that they can be in the water uh less that they can be in the water uh less time before they get hypothermic so just time before they get hypothermic so just time before they get hypothermic so just think about that they're just smaller think about that they're just smaller think about that they're just smaller they can't defend their temperature for they can't defend their temperature for they can't defend their temperature for a very long time but in this study they a very long time but in this study they a very long time but in this study they saw that for up to I think it it was a saw that for up to I think it it was a saw that for up to I think it it was a minute or so they could one minute one minute or so they could one minute one minute or so they could one minute one minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned minute yeah I'm glad you mentioned hypothermia and smaller bodied um people hypothermia and smaller bodied um people hypothermia and smaller bodied um people children uh I used to do some um Pacific children uh I used to do some um Pacific children uh I used to do some um Pacific uh ocean swims in the morning um without uh ocean swims in the morning um without uh ocean swims in the morning um without wet suits and I adapted to it pretty wet suits and I adapted to it pretty wet suits and I adapted to it pretty quickly and these are fairly long swims quickly and these are fairly long swims quickly and these are fairly long swims and we brought an excellent swimmer with and we brought an excellent swimmer with and we brought an excellent swimmer with us um a k that was interning with me for us um a k that was interning with me for us um a k that was interning with me for a while um he 16 years old at the time a while um he 16 years old at the time a while um he 16 years old at the time and um very lean and um he wasn't small and um very lean and um he wasn't small and um very lean and um he wasn't small for his age but he was smaller than us

1:04for his age but he was smaller than us for his age but he was smaller than us than the it was all guys on this swim than the it was all guys on this swim than the it was all guys on this swim that day Sometimes women join us um and that day Sometimes women join us um and that day Sometimes women join us um and he got he got he got hypothermic um and he's an excellent hypothermic um and he's an excellent hypothermic um and he's an excellent swimmer and he didn't report feeling swimmer and he didn't report feeling swimmer and he didn't report feeling overly cold but um fortunately we got overly cold but um fortunately we got overly cold but um fortunately we got him to Shore and heated him up again um him to Shore and heated him up again um him to Shore and heated him up again um so he lived I don't think his mother's so he lived I don't think his mother's so he lived I don't think his mother's going to ever let him go swimming with going to ever let him go swimming with going to ever let him go swimming with us again he's thriving in the world he's us again he's thriving in the world he's us again he's thriving in the world he's a university student now um and he a university student now um and he a university student now um and he recalls that swim I mean this is why you recalls that swim I mean this is why you recalls that swim I mean this is why you always want to Ocean swim with a buddy always want to Ocean swim with a buddy always want to Ocean swim with a buddy with people um yeah he he became with people um yeah he he became with people um yeah he he became hypothermic his teeth turned yellow he hypothermic his teeth turned yellow he hypothermic his teeth turned yellow he was kind of slurring his words he wasn't was kind of slurring his words he wasn't was kind of slurring his words he wasn't making sense you know we got him on the making sense you know we got him on the making sense you know we got him on the shore and he was kind of you know shore and he was kind of you know shore and he was kind of you know drooling and a littleit semi euphoric drooling and a littleit semi euphoric drooling and a littleit semi euphoric and then kind of you know it was um and then kind of you know it was um and then kind of you know it was um hypothermia is no joke so I think yeah hypothermia is no joke so I think yeah hypothermia is no joke so I think yeah so I I I'm really glad that this is so I I I'm really glad that this is so I I I'm really glad that this is coming up because the cold is a powerful coming up because the cold is a powerful coming up because the cold is a powerful stimulus and um and I and kids are at a stimulus and um and I and kids are at a stimulus and um and I and kids are at a and smaller bodied people are at a and smaller bodied people are at a and smaller bodied people are at a greater risk of hypothermia so a good greater risk of hypothermia so a good greater risk of hypothermia so a good reason to approach it with caution maybe reason to approach it with caution maybe reason to approach it with caution maybe start with cold showers get uh then cold

1:05start with cold showers get uh then cold start with cold showers get uh then cold immersion and still water natural water immersion and still water natural water immersion and still water natural water and open bodies of water of course are and open bodies of water of course are and open bodies of water of course are always going to be um more dangerous for always going to be um more dangerous for always going to be um more dangerous for other reasons currents and things of other reasons currents and things of other reasons currents and things of that sort exactly okay and drowning yeah that sort exactly okay and drowning yeah that sort exactly okay and drowning yeah so an important note there um what about so an important note there um what about so an important note there um what about any additional male female differences any additional male female differences any additional male female differences or similarities that um we should be or similarities that um we should be or similarities that um we should be aware of and this comes up all the time aware of and this comes up all the time aware of and this comes up all the time on social media anytime I post anything on social media anytime I post anything on social media anytime I post anything about a study it's what about women about a study it's what about women about a study it's what about women because often times there are because often times there are because often times there are differences yeah yeah and and and there differences yeah yeah and and and there differences yeah yeah and and and there are we we also just talked about the are we we also just talked about the are we we also just talked about the difference in in in in temperature in difference in in in in temperature in difference in in in in temperature in men and women so it means that if we did men and women so it means that if we did men and women so it means that if we did if we replicated my study in women it if we replicated my study in women it if we replicated my study in women it could be that they would have enough you could be that they would have enough you could be that they would have enough you can say cold exposure with just 9 can say cold exposure with just 9 can say cold exposure with just 9 minutes per week it could be because minutes per week it could be because minutes per week it could be because they H apparently are also just colder they H apparently are also just colder they H apparently are also just colder and uh and they have increased and uh and they have increased and uh and they have increased metabolism in their Brown fat is just metabolism in their Brown fat is just metabolism in their Brown fat is just they have more Brown fat it could be but they have more Brown fat it could be but they have more Brown fat it could be but this is just something that I I I I this is just something that I I I I this is just something that I I I I frankly don't know but women also do

1:06frankly don't know but women also do frankly don't know but women also do cold exposure winter swimming with the cold exposure winter swimming with the cold exposure winter swimming with the 11 minutes protocol I do it myself and 11 minutes protocol I do it myself and 11 minutes protocol I do it myself and feel uh good about it so I would say feel uh good about it so I would say feel uh good about it so I would say that um women uh Also regarding that um women uh Also regarding that um women uh Also regarding activation of the brown fed it should be activation of the brown fed it should be activation of the brown fed it should be the same um in theory but I don't know the same um in theory but I don't know the same um in theory but I don't know if women actually do need to have if women actually do need to have if women actually do need to have another protocol when it comes to this another protocol when it comes to this another protocol when it comes to this rapid cold exposure I think that it's rapid cold exposure I think that it's rapid cold exposure I think that it's another question if we are talking about another question if we are talking about another question if we are talking about ice swimming when it comes to how far ice swimming when it comes to how far ice swimming when it comes to how far can you be in the cold water without can you be in the cold water without can you be in the cold water without getting hypothermic then there will be getting hypothermic then there will be getting hypothermic then there will be differences in men and and female but differences in men and and female but differences in men and and female but but if you do this cold exposure for a but if you do this cold exposure for a but if you do this cold exposure for a very brief amount of time which is what very brief amount of time which is what very brief amount of time which is what I try to to talk to about talk about the I try to to talk to about talk about the I try to to talk to about talk about the what we call also micr stressing the what we call also micr stressing the what we call also micr stressing the body to to increase the htic stress the body to to increase the htic stress the body to to increase the htic stress the healthy stress then this is such a short healthy stress then this is such a short healthy stress then this is such a short amount of um exposure that it it's amount of um exposure that it it's amount of um exposure that it it's fairly the same I think I think women

1:07fairly the same I think I think women fairly the same I think I think women can look at this as a fairly good can look at this as a fairly good can look at this as a fairly good protocol for for for them as well I protocol for for for them as well I protocol for for for them as well I always say that if you really dread the always say that if you really dread the always say that if you really dread the cold and um and don't like the cold then cold and um and don't like the cold then cold and um and don't like the cold then you are a perfect candidate for using you are a perfect candidate for using you are a perfect candidate for using deliberate cold exposure because the deliberate cold exposure because the deliberate cold exposure because the sympathetic aka the stress response will sympathetic aka the stress response will sympathetic aka the stress response will be greater and thereby the adaptation to be greater and thereby the adaptation to be greater and thereby the adaptation to that shorter one or two minutes is um is that shorter one or two minutes is um is that shorter one or two minutes is um is going to be much grader right for people going to be much grader right for people going to be much grader right for people that are perfectly comfortable in the that are perfectly comfortable in the that are perfectly comfortable in the cold it's harder to get a an adaptation cold it's harder to get a an adaptation cold it's harder to get a an adaptation response the same way that if somebody's response the same way that if somebody's response the same way that if somebody's very strong and they can lift a very very strong and they can lift a very very strong and they can lift a very heavy weight that that very heavy weight heavy weight that that very heavy weight heavy weight that that very heavy weight is unlikely to evoke the same kind of or is unlikely to evoke the same kind of or is unlikely to evoke the same kind of or same degree of of uh adaptive responses same degree of of uh adaptive responses same degree of of uh adaptive responses if somebody is not quite as strong so if somebody is not quite as strong so if somebody is not quite as strong so another reason to keep these exposures another reason to keep these exposures another reason to keep these exposures relatively short and more frequent than relatively short and more frequent than relatively short and more frequent than to do longer duration exposures to do longer duration exposures to do longer duration exposures frequently however let's say somebody frequently however let's say somebody frequently however let's say somebody only had two days a week only had two days a week only had two days a week um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe um to do deliberate cold exposure maybe they don't have access to a sauna maybe

1:08they don't have access to a sauna maybe they don't have access to a sauna maybe they do would you suggest that they get they do would you suggest that they get they do would you suggest that they get in for one or two minutes then get out in for one or two minutes then get out in for one or two minutes then get out then get back in for another couple of then get back in for another couple of then get back in for another couple of minutes then get out and call that for minutes then get out and call that for minutes then get out and call that for you know four or five minutes um to try you know four or five minutes um to try you know four or five minutes um to try and get to that 11 minutes total per and get to that 11 minutes total per and get to that 11 minutes total per week um as opposed to getting in for a week um as opposed to getting in for a week um as opposed to getting in for a full five minutes um and then getting full five minutes um and then getting full five minutes um and then getting out and coming back a second time that out and coming back a second time that out and coming back a second time that week I know this is getting down into week I know this is getting down into week I know this is getting down into the weeds but these are the sorts of the weeds but these are the sorts of the weeds but these are the sorts of things that I think people really want things that I think people really want things that I think people really want to know because not a lot of people to know because not a lot of people to know because not a lot of people either don't live close to a body of either don't live close to a body of either don't live close to a body of water or don't have a cold plunge um water or don't have a cold plunge um water or don't have a cold plunge um that they can do this with although cold that they can do this with although cold that they can do this with although cold shower apparently works too so most shower apparently works too so most shower apparently works too so most people live close to a shower yeah as people live close to a shower yeah as people live close to a shower yeah as definitely I think the the changes in definitely I think the the changes in definitely I think the the changes in temperature is what is strengthening temperature is what is strengthening temperature is what is strengthening your your cells in the body so if you your your cells in the body so if you your your cells in the body so if you can do the short amount of uh exposure can do the short amount of uh exposure can do the short amount of uh exposure and then get out and get back in that is and then get out and get back in that is and then get out and get back in that is going to you can say um um strengthen going to you can say um um strengthen going to you can say um um strengthen your cells because you are challenging your cells because you are challenging your cells because you are challenging them to to adapt to um changing temp

1:09them to to adapt to um changing temp them to to adapt to um changing temp temperatures so during one session you temperatures so during one session you temperatures so during one session you can change this right you you can do it can change this right you you can do it can change this right you you can do it if you are able to go to cold water but if you are able to go to cold water but if you are able to go to cold water but also a SAA then you just do it that also a SAA then you just do it that also a SAA then you just do it that automatically you will have a change in automatically you will have a change in automatically you will have a change in temperature but you could also do it by temperature but you could also do it by temperature but you could also do it by variating the temperature in your co- variating the temperature in your co- variating the temperature in your co- plune if you have if you have a plun or plune if you have if you have a plun or plune if you have if you have a plun or if you have an open sea or you have if you have an open sea or you have if you have an open sea or you have seasoning Seasons even you have we have seasoning Seasons even you have we have seasoning Seasons even you have we have that in Denmark so we have four SE that in Denmark so we have four SE that in Denmark so we have four SE seasons and the temperature is going to seasons and the temperature is going to seasons and the temperature is going to vary with that so we have nature who can vary with that so we have nature who can vary with that so we have nature who can just change this for us and we don't just change this for us and we don't just change this for us and we don't have to think about it if you have a co- have to think about it if you have a co- have to think about it if you have a co- plune well then I would say that plune well then I would say that plune well then I would say that changing the temperature is what is changing the temperature is what is changing the temperature is what is going to create this romatic stress and going to create this romatic stress and going to create this romatic stress and also keep your cells on its toes you can also keep your cells on its toes you can also keep your cells on its toes you can say because you are try the body will say because you are try the body will say because you are try the body will still be um stressed to try to adapt to still be um stressed to try to adapt to still be um stressed to try to adapt to the new temperature as it's seen as the new temperature as it's seen as the new temperature as it's seen as something actually toxic to the body something actually toxic to the body something actually toxic to the body right it's a small small piece of right it's a small small piece of right it's a small small piece of toxicity that you are exposing yourself toxicity that you are exposing yourself toxicity that you are exposing yourself to you don't have to swallow it but it's

1:10to you don't have to swallow it but it's to you don't have to swallow it but it's enough that you touch it actually yeah enough that you touch it actually yeah enough that you touch it actually yeah great great way to frame it um that great great way to frame it um that great great way to frame it um that brings me back to this idea of circadian brings me back to this idea of circadian brings me back to this idea of circadian time in your study you didn't um control time in your study you didn't um control time in your study you didn't um control for specific time of day and now I'm for specific time of day and now I'm for specific time of day and now I'm realizing that may be a great asset to realizing that may be a great asset to realizing that may be a great asset to the whole thing so we know for instance the whole thing so we know for instance the whole thing so we know for instance that our bodies go through pretty that our bodies go through pretty that our bodies go through pretty dramatic shifts in temperature from the dramatic shifts in temperature from the dramatic shifts in temperature from the time we wake up um our body starts time we wake up um our body starts time we wake up um our body starts heating up as we wake W up and um heating up as we wake W up and um heating up as we wake W up and um continues to heat until the afternoon continues to heat until the afternoon continues to heat until the afternoon and then starts to drop in the later and then starts to drop in the later and then starts to drop in the later afternoon and then assuming all things afternoon and then assuming all things afternoon and then assuming all things are working correctly um that body are working correctly um that body are working correctly um that body temperature drops and we sleep so I temperature drops and we sleep so I temperature drops and we sleep so I could imagine that doing deliberate cold could imagine that doing deliberate cold could imagine that doing deliberate cold exposure at different times um just by exposure at different times um just by exposure at different times um just by way of convenience or by way of way of convenience or by way of way of convenience or by way of intention could be very beneficial intention could be very beneficial intention could be very beneficial because my body temperature is going to because my body temperature is going to because my body temperature is going to be quite a bit warmer at one time of day be quite a bit warmer at one time of day be quite a bit warmer at one time of day versus another and in that way keeping versus another and in that way keeping versus another and in that way keeping the system tuned and that's really what the system tuned and that's really what the system tuned and that's really what I keep hearing coming through in as you I keep hearing coming through in as you I keep hearing coming through in as you explain these data all these um explain these data all these um explain these data all these um beautiful studies yours and others is beautiful studies yours and others is beautiful studies yours and others is that it's not really about getting cold

1:11that it's not really about getting cold that it's not really about getting cold it's about going from warm to cold and it's about going from warm to cold and it's about going from warm to cold and from cold to warm it's not it and I love from cold to warm it's not it and I love from cold to warm it's not it and I love this idea because I probably said this a this idea because I probably said this a this idea because I probably said this a hundred times on my podcast and a hundred times on my podcast and a hundred times on my podcast and a million times in my life and I'll million times in my life and I'll million times in my life and I'll continue to which is that biology is not continue to which is that biology is not continue to which is that biology is not an event it's a process like these these an event it's a process like these these an event it's a process like these these um metabolic and therm regulatory um metabolic and therm regulatory um metabolic and therm regulatory processes are indeed like the Turning of processes are indeed like the Turning of processes are indeed like the Turning of a knob it's a verb it's as opposed to a knob it's a verb it's as opposed to a knob it's a verb it's as opposed to now and I and so I I think if people can now and I and so I I think if people can now and I and so I I think if people can internalize that idea that they're going internalize that idea that they're going internalize that idea that they're going to um have a lot more flexibility a lot to um have a lot more flexibility a lot to um have a lot more flexibility a lot more fun and and get a lot more benefit more fun and and get a lot more benefit more fun and and get a lot more benefit as opposed to thinking okay I need to as opposed to thinking okay I need to as opposed to thinking okay I need to get into X degrees of water for x amount get into X degrees of water for x amount get into X degrees of water for x amount of time on X number of days you know in of time on X number of days you know in of time on X number of days you know in a very all the time how much and how a very all the time how much and how a very all the time how much and how cold and and I mean it's not it's just cold and and I mean it's not it's just cold and and I mean it's not it's just like well because we also don't have like well because we also don't have like well because we also don't have studies showing exactly if you just keep studies showing exactly if you just keep studies showing exactly if you just keep five degrees in your water and you do five degrees in your water and you do five degrees in your water and you do that for a month then what happens we that for a month then what happens we that for a month then what happens we maybe the future we will know much more maybe the future we will know much more maybe the future we will know much more about this and I'm I'm sure it's going

1:12about this and I'm I'm sure it's going about this and I'm I'm sure it's going to come and I really hope so but I just to come and I really hope so but I just to come and I really hope so but I just think by logically changing that think by logically changing that think by logically changing that temperature up and down up and down and temperature up and down up and down and temperature up and down up and down and you also do that in your water it you also do that in your water it you also do that in your water it doesn't really it's not that important doesn't really it's not that important doesn't really it's not that important what temperature you you will have your what temperature you you will have your what temperature you you will have your water then then just keep changing it water then then just keep changing it water then then just keep changing it going up and down it could be all up to going up and down it could be all up to going up and down it could be all up to 12° CSI you're going to activate your 12° CSI you're going to activate your 12° CSI you're going to activate your brown fat anyways I mean 12 uh brown fat anyways I mean 12 uh brown fat anyways I mean 12 uh 19° cold air is enough to activate your 19° cold air is enough to activate your 19° cold air is enough to activate your brown PS so maybe we don't have to go as brown PS so maybe we don't have to go as brown PS so maybe we don't have to go as cold as I think many people think um and cold as I think many people think um and cold as I think many people think um and putting ice even all the time you don't putting ice even all the time you don't putting ice even all the time you don't have to it's not I don't think it's have to it's not I don't think it's have to it's not I don't think it's necessary to to expose yourself to that necessary to to expose yourself to that necessary to to expose yourself to that cold uh temperature all the time um but cold uh temperature all the time um but cold uh temperature all the time um but vary it a bit so keep the system off vary it a bit so keep the system off vary it a bit so keep the system off balance and is the way to keep it tuned balance and is the way to keep it tuned balance and is the way to keep it tuned Yeah you mentioned a study that is more Yeah you mentioned a study that is more Yeah you mentioned a study that is more recent or ongoing that's not published recent or ongoing that's not published recent or ongoing that's not published or um if you're willing um could you or um if you're willing um could you or um if you're willing um could you share maybe some of the uh data from share maybe some of the uh data from share maybe some of the uh data from that or findings from that study um with

1:13that or findings from that study um with that or findings from that study um with of course the the cue to everybody that of course the the cue to everybody that of course the the cue to everybody that these are not yet published data so that these are not yet published data so that these are not yet published data so that the conclusions could change the data the conclusions could change the data the conclusions could change the data could change for that matter yeah so we could change for that matter yeah so we could change for that matter yeah so we we haven't analyzed all the data yet and we haven't analyzed all the data yet and we haven't analyzed all the data yet and I I know from the study that we did I I know from the study that we did I I know from the study that we did publish that we we would need to look publish that we we would need to look publish that we we would need to look more at the data so I don't really have more at the data so I don't really have more at the data so I don't really have any results yet that I can share because any results yet that I can share because any results yet that I can share because we are still in very preliminary anal

1:16la [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] [Music] no a

1:19[Music] Anis of this so I I wouldn't know yet

1:20Anis of this so I I wouldn't know yet Anis of this so I I wouldn't know yet what to exactly say about it but what we what to exactly say about it but what we what to exactly say about it but what we looked at was both men and women with so looked at was both men and women with so looked at was both men and women with so that's that's coming oh that's fantastic that's that's coming oh that's fantastic that's that's coming oh that's fantastic I um that answer is going to please a I um that answer is going to please a I um that answer is going to please a great number of people and and Intrigue great number of people and and Intrigue great number of people and and Intrigue everybody so well listen I I want to everybody so well listen I I want to everybody so well listen I I want to really thank you for coming here today really thank you for coming here today really thank you for coming here today to talk about your work um and the to talk about your work um and the to talk about your work um and the incredible direction that it points to incredible direction that it points to incredible direction that it points to because I think that um you know no one because I think that um you know no one because I think that um you know no one study is definitive but your study study is definitive but your study study is definitive but your study really again stands as a landmark in the really again stands as a landmark in the really again stands as a landmark in the landscape of exploring deliberate cold landscape of exploring deliberate cold landscape of exploring deliberate cold exposure and heat how it can impact and exposure and heat how it can impact and exposure and heat how it can impact and potentially impact our health because potentially impact our health because potentially impact our health because frankly there just haven't been that frankly there just haven't been that frankly there just haven't been that many um many um many um highresolution uh detailed modern highresolution uh detailed modern highresolution uh detailed modern studies of this there have been studies studies of this there have been studies studies of this there have been studies of sauna there have been some studies of of sauna there have been some studies of of sauna there have been some studies of cold there are a lot of groups in cold there are a lot of groups in cold there are a lot of groups in physiology that work on um hypothermia physiology that work on um hypothermia physiology that work on um hypothermia and very cold exposure but um most of and very cold exposure but um most of and very cold exposure but um most of the temperatures used in those studies

1:21the temperatures used in those studies the temperatures used in those studies just aren't practical so first of all I just aren't practical so first of all I just aren't practical so first of all I just want to thank you for doing the just want to thank you for doing the just want to thank you for doing the work that you've done and for the work work that you've done and for the work work that you've done and for the work that you continue to do I'm um uh that you continue to do I'm um uh that you continue to do I'm um uh waiting with baited breath as they say waiting with baited breath as they say waiting with baited breath as they say to um uh to hear the results of this uh to um uh to hear the results of this uh to um uh to hear the results of this uh study that's ongoing on both men and study that's ongoing on both men and study that's ongoing on both men and women so um we'll have to have you back women so um we'll have to have you back women so um we'll have to have you back to to inform us about that soon and I to to inform us about that soon and I to to inform us about that soon and I want to thank you for um the incredible want to thank you for um the incredible want to thank you for um the incredible public education efforts that you've public education efforts that you've public education efforts that you've been doing on social media um and with been doing on social media um and with been doing on social media um and with respect to your book um and we of course respect to your book um and we of course respect to your book um and we of course will'll put links to all of those things will'll put links to all of those things will'll put links to all of those things in the show note caption so people can in the show note caption so people can in the show note caption so people can learn from you and can continue to learn learn from you and can continue to learn learn from you and can continue to learn from you we we certainly need more from you we we certainly need more from you we we certainly need more scientists who are both experienced with scientists who are both experienced with scientists who are both experienced with doing hardcore research as it's called doing hardcore research as it's called doing hardcore research as it's called and who also do the practices I think and who also do the practices I think and who also do the practices I think that's a wonderful additional asset you that's a wonderful additional asset you that's a wonderful additional asset you know you're not just behind a lab coat know you're not just behind a lab coat know you're not just behind a lab coat or bundled up in a in a down uh in a or bundled up in a in a down uh in a or bundled up in a in a down uh in a down feather jacket as everyone else is down feather jacket as everyone else is down feather jacket as everyone else is getting in the cold you do these things getting in the cold you do these things getting in the cold you do these things and that you are so open and generous in and that you are so open and generous in and that you are so open and generous in the way that you share uh knowledge

1:22the way that you share uh knowledge the way that you share uh knowledge which includes coming here today to to which includes coming here today to to which includes coming here today to to share knowledge with me and uh our share knowledge with me and uh our share knowledge with me and uh our audience so thank you ever so much audience so thank you ever so much audience so thank you ever so much you're very welcome I am so pleased to you're very welcome I am so pleased to you're very welcome I am so pleased to be here and thank you so much for be here and thank you so much for be here and thank you so much for inviting me and I could explain my study inviting me and I could explain my study inviting me and I could explain my study and I can share some of my insights from and I can share some of my insights from and I can share some of my insights from from doing that so I'm very grateful for from doing that so I'm very grateful for from doing that so I'm very grateful for being here delighted and we'll have to being here delighted and we'll have to being here delighted and we'll have to have you back again thank you for have you back again thank you for have you back again thank you for joining me for today's discussion all joining me for today's discussion all joining me for today's discussion all about deliberate cold and deliberate about deliberate cold and deliberate about deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure science and protocols with heat exposure science and protocols with heat exposure science and protocols with Dr Susanna soberg if you'd like to learn Dr Susanna soberg if you'd like to learn Dr Susanna soberg if you'd like to learn more about Dr soberg research or you more about Dr soberg research or you more about Dr soberg research or you would like to learn about the research would like to learn about the research would like to learn about the research of her Institute The soberg Institute of her Institute The soberg Institute of her Institute The soberg Institute please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note caption also in the show note caption caption also in the show note caption caption also in the show note caption you can find a link to Dr silberg's you can find a link to Dr silberg's you can find a link to Dr silberg's excellent book winter swimming if you're excellent book winter swimming if you're excellent book winter swimming if you're learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube podcast please subscribe to our YouTube podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zero costway channel that's a terrific zero costway channel that's a terrific zero costway to support us in addition please to support us in addition please to support us in addition please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and apple and in addition on both Spotify apple and in addition on both Spotify apple and in addition on both Spotify and apple you can leave us up to a fstar and apple you can leave us up to a fstar and apple you can leave us up to a fstar review if you have questions for me or

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Andrew Huberman 2024 How to Use Cold Heat Exposure to Improve Your Health