Rethinking Protein: Essential Insights for Muscle Health and Longevity - Full Transcript

00:00Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Aia. Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Aia. Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Aia. [Music] >> Rhonda, so great to see you. And I >> Rhonda, so great to see you. And I didn't realize until a few minutes ago didn't realize until a few minutes ago didn't realize until a few minutes ago that the last time we spoke it was that the last time we spoke it was that the last time we spoke it was virtual. virtual. virtual. >> Yeah, good to see you. We go back a long >> Yeah, good to see you. We go back a long >> Yeah, good to see you. We go back a long way. way. way. >> You're still in the in the same our same >> You're still in the in the same our same >> You're still in the in the same our same former neighborhood in San Diego. former neighborhood in San Diego. former neighborhood in San Diego. >> I know. And I'm thinking that, you know, >> I know. And I'm thinking that, you know, >> I know. And I'm thinking that, you know, you found the same feeling here in you found the same feeling here in you found the same feeling here in Austin. Yeah, we did. Um, all right. Austin. Yeah, we did. Um, all right. Austin. Yeah, we did. Um, all right. Well, there's a lot we want to chat Well, there's a lot we want to chat Well, there's a lot we want to chat about today, and I'm a little hesitant about today, and I'm a little hesitant about today, and I'm a little hesitant to say this, but I do feel like to say this, but I do feel like to say this, but I do feel like reluctantly reluctantly reluctantly we need to have one more discussion we need to have one more discussion we need to have one more discussion about about about uh a particular macronutrient that seems uh a particular macronutrient that seems uh a particular macronutrient that seems to get a lot of attention lately. And um to get a lot of attention lately. And um to get a lot of attention lately. And um I I don't necessarily want to talk about I I don't necessarily want to talk about I I don't necessarily want to talk about this because I think it's especially this because I think it's especially this because I think it's especially interesting um or even uh to which interesting um or even uh to which interesting um or even uh to which there's some new study that we need to there's some new study that we need to there's some new study that we need to shed light on, but it does seem to

01:00shed light on, but it does seem to shed light on, but it does seem to remain somewhat surrounded in some remain somewhat surrounded in some remain somewhat surrounded in some controversy. Um which I will refrain controversy. Um which I will refrain controversy. Um which I will refrain from publicly speculating on why said from publicly speculating on why said from publicly speculating on why said controversy exists, although privately controversy exists, although privately controversy exists, although privately I'm very happy to speculate on all the I'm very happy to speculate on all the I'm very happy to speculate on all the reasons for it. So with that said, let's reasons for it. So with that said, let's reasons for it. So with that said, let's talk about protein. Let's do it. I do talk about protein. Let's do it. I do talk about protein. Let's do it. I do think it's an important topic. You know, think it's an important topic. You know, think it's an important topic. You know, you and I have probably talked to all you and I have probably talked to all you and I have probably talked to all the world's experts on protein and you the world's experts on protein and you the world's experts on protein and you know, we were chatting a moment ago know, we were chatting a moment ago know, we were chatting a moment ago about this recommended daily allowance about this recommended daily allowance about this recommended daily allowance for protein, the so-called RDA. for protein, the so-called RDA. for protein, the so-called RDA. And really what it should be called is And really what it should be called is And really what it should be called is the minimal daily allowance. in all I the minimal daily allowance. in all I the minimal daily allowance. in all I would say it recommended almost sounds would say it recommended almost sounds would say it recommended almost sounds like optimal in a way like I think like optimal in a way like I think like optimal in a way like I think people confuse that with the optimal people confuse that with the optimal people confuse that with the optimal amount of protein right so it's kind of amount of protein right so it's kind of amount of protein right so it's kind of tricky tricky tricky >> um and I think that's an important place >> um and I think that's an important place >> um and I think that's an important place to start because of that reason where to start because of that reason where to start because of that reason where this amount which is 0.8 8 g per

02:00this amount which is 0.8 8 g per this amount which is 0.8 8 g per kilogram body weight per day is the RDA kilogram body weight per day is the RDA kilogram body weight per day is the RDA for protein, right? And I know that for protein, right? And I know that for protein, right? And I know that you've probably had countless experts on you've probably had countless experts on you've probably had countless experts on talking about this. I've had experts on talking about this. I've had experts on talking about this. I've had experts on talking about this. Stu Phillips being talking about this. Stu Phillips being talking about this. Stu Phillips being one. There's so many different one. There's so many different one. There's so many different publications that I mean people can publications that I mean people can publications that I mean people can start off by reading one of them here uh start off by reading one of them here uh start off by reading one of them here uh by Stu Phillips perspective protein by Stu Phillips perspective protein by Stu Phillips perspective protein requirements and optimal intakes in requirements and optimal intakes in requirements and optimal intakes in aging. Are we ready to recommend more aging. Are we ready to recommend more aging. Are we ready to recommend more than the recommended daily allowance? than the recommended daily allowance? than the recommended daily allowance? And there's several of these out there. And there's several of these out there. And there's several of these out there. Okay, I'm this is just one. And Okay, I'm this is just one. And Okay, I'm this is just one. And essentially, essentially, essentially, if you if you have the time and the if you if you have the time and the if you if you have the time and the willingness to go into the scientific willingness to go into the scientific willingness to go into the scientific literature and actually read something literature and actually read something literature and actually read something for yourself or listen to the drive or for yourself or listen to the drive or for yourself or listen to the drive or listen to my podcast and the actual listen to my podcast and the actual listen to my podcast and the actual experts talking about it, what you will experts talking about it, what you will experts talking about it, what you will hear or what you will learn is that a hear or what you will learn is that a hear or what you will learn is that a lot of the studies that were done to lot of the studies that were done to lot of the studies that were done to determine this RDA were flawed. um they determine this RDA were flawed. um they determine this RDA were flawed. um they were called nitrogen balance studies and were called nitrogen balance studies and were called nitrogen balance studies and for many reasons they're flawed. I can't

03:00for many reasons they're flawed. I can't for many reasons they're flawed. I can't I don't want to get into all the I don't want to get into all the I don't want to get into all the technical reasons but for one you know technical reasons but for one you know technical reasons but for one you know what they are doing is measuring the what they are doing is measuring the what they are doing is measuring the amount of nitrogen that is excreted in amount of nitrogen that is excreted in amount of nitrogen that is excreted in urine after you are metabolizing protein urine after you are metabolizing protein urine after you are metabolizing protein right and right and right and some of the flaws that are I would say some of the flaws that are I would say some of the flaws that are I would say the most important here are that the most important here are that the most important here are that different types of foods that have different types of foods that have different types of foods that have protein in them have different nitrogen protein in them have different nitrogen protein in them have different nitrogen to protein ratios they're collecting to protein ratios they're collecting to protein ratios they're collecting urine in which you know the case is is urine in which you know the case is is urine in which you know the case is is that it's incomplete collection I mean that it's incomplete collection I mean that it's incomplete collection I mean like when you pee one of those cups like like when you pee one of those cups like like when you pee one of those cups like you don't get all the urine. It's you don't get all the urine. It's you don't get all the urine. It's incomplete collection and so essentially incomplete collection and so essentially incomplete collection and so essentially what's happened what's happened what's happened >> and we lose nitrogen through other means >> and we lose nitrogen through other means >> and we lose nitrogen through other means that is not just that is not just that is not just >> urine. Yes, exactly. We lose the >> urine. Yes, exactly. We lose the >> urine. Yes, exactly. We lose the nitrogen through other means and so nitrogen through other means and so nitrogen through other means and so essentially the signal to noise ratio is essentially the signal to noise ratio is essentially the signal to noise ratio is pretty low and ultimately what like pretty low and ultimately what like pretty low and ultimately what like countless experts have now agreed upon countless experts have now agreed upon countless experts have now agreed upon is that the protein for the RDA has been is that the protein for the RDA has been is that the protein for the RDA has been underestimated because of those reasons underestimated because of those reasons underestimated because of those reasons and there have been new studies that and there have been new studies that and there have been new studies that have been done. These have been like have been done. These have been like have been done. These have been like more stable isotope studies. The major

04:00more stable isotope studies. The major more stable isotope studies. The major isotope that's used is the L13 carbon isotope that's used is the L13 carbon isotope that's used is the L13 carbon labeling phenyl alanine in which case labeling phenyl alanine in which case labeling phenyl alanine in which case these studies take a small cohort of these studies take a small cohort of these studies take a small cohort of people give them a known amount of people give them a known amount of people give them a known amount of protein with that isotope tracer and protein with that isotope tracer and protein with that isotope tracer and then that um tracer is oxidized when then that um tracer is oxidized when then that um tracer is oxidized when it's you know metabolized and that's it's you know metabolized and that's it's you know metabolized and that's measured through breath the oxidation of measured through breath the oxidation of measured through breath the oxidation of phenyl alanine right and so now you're phenyl alanine right and so now you're phenyl alanine right and so now you're getting a quantification that's much getting a quantification that's much getting a quantification that's much more accurate in terms of your protein more accurate in terms of your protein more accurate in terms of your protein you know, steady state and turnover, you know, steady state and turnover, you know, steady state and turnover, right? And so the whole point here is right? And so the whole point here is right? And so the whole point here is that you're trying to figure out the that you're trying to figure out the that you're trying to figure out the minimal amount of protein you need to minimal amount of protein you need to minimal amount of protein you need to take in every day to make sure that take in every day to make sure that take in every day to make sure that you're not in a negative protein you're not in a negative protein you're not in a negative protein balance. Why is that important? Well, balance. Why is that important? Well, balance. Why is that important? Well, that's important because we don't store that's important because we don't store that's important because we don't store amino acids, right? We don't store amino amino acids, right? We don't store amino amino acids, right? We don't store amino acids like we store fatty acids as acids like we store fatty acids as acids like we store fatty acids as triglycerides or we store glucose as triglycerides or we store glucose as triglycerides or we store glucose as glycogen, right? The major source of our glycogen, right? The major source of our glycogen, right? The major source of our amino acid storage tank, so to speak, is amino acid storage tank, so to speak, is amino acid storage tank, so to speak, is our muscle, skeletal muscle tissue. And our muscle, skeletal muscle tissue. And our muscle, skeletal muscle tissue. And you don't want to be pulling from that

05:00you don't want to be pulling from that you don't want to be pulling from that skeletal muscle tissue to get amino skeletal muscle tissue to get amino skeletal muscle tissue to get amino acids every day. Why do we need amino acids every day. Why do we need amino acids every day. Why do we need amino acids every day? Because everything in acids every day? Because everything in acids every day? Because everything in our body requires proteins. Proteins are our body requires proteins. Proteins are our body requires proteins. Proteins are doing all the work in our body and doing all the work in our body and doing all the work in our body and proteins are made up of amino acids. And proteins are made up of amino acids. And proteins are made up of amino acids. And so we have to be giving oursel an intake so we have to be giving oursel an intake so we have to be giving oursel an intake um daily intake of amino acids to make um daily intake of amino acids to make um daily intake of amino acids to make sure we able we're able to do all those sure we able we're able to do all those sure we able we're able to do all those functions, right? I just want to state functions, right? I just want to state functions, right? I just want to state that again because I I do think there's that again because I I do think there's that again because I I do think there's a very important and fundamental um a very important and fundamental um a very important and fundamental um point here that that is is glossed over point here that that is is glossed over point here that that is is glossed over when we talk about it because we take it when we talk about it because we take it when we talk about it because we take it for granted like if we studied for granted like if we studied for granted like if we studied biochemistry and anybody who's you know biochemistry and anybody who's you know biochemistry and anybody who's you know studied biochemistry will know this but studied biochemistry will know this but studied biochemistry will know this but we can store fat in unlimited quantities we can store fat in unlimited quantities we can store fat in unlimited quantities right so if you deprive a person of fat right so if you deprive a person of fat right so if you deprive a person of fat calories for a period of time they have calories for a period of time they have calories for a period of time they have a long reservoir that they can dig into a long reservoir that they can dig into a long reservoir that they can dig into not indefinitely but they can not indefinitely but they can not indefinitely but they can we can store carbohydrates. Now, we we can store carbohydrates. Now, we we can store carbohydrates. Now, we can't store them quite as much because, can't store them quite as much because, can't store them quite as much because, you know, we only have so much glycogen you know, we only have so much glycogen you know, we only have so much glycogen we can store in the muscle and in the we can store in the muscle and in the we can store in the muscle and in the liver. But when we break down fat, we liver. But when we break down fat, we liver. But when we break down fat, we keep making the substrate to actually

06:00keep making the substrate to actually keep making the substrate to actually make glucose. So, we get into a nice make glucose. So, we get into a nice make glucose. So, we get into a nice little rhythm. But to your point, the little rhythm. But to your point, the little rhythm. But to your point, the only place that an amino acid sits in only place that an amino acid sits in only place that an amino acid sits in residence in our body is in the muscle. residence in our body is in the muscle. residence in our body is in the muscle. Therefore, if we even get near the edge Therefore, if we even get near the edge Therefore, if we even get near the edge where we are not getting sufficient where we are not getting sufficient where we are not getting sufficient intake of amino acids, we don't have a intake of amino acids, we don't have a intake of amino acids, we don't have a buffer. We don't have a rainy day fund buffer. We don't have a rainy day fund buffer. We don't have a rainy day fund that we can dip into. We immediately that we can dip into. We immediately that we can dip into. We immediately start to catabolize or break down start to catabolize or break down start to catabolize or break down muscle. muscle. muscle. Now, I don't think we have to make the Now, I don't think we have to make the Now, I don't think we have to make the case that that's a bad idea. But for the case that that's a bad idea. But for the case that that's a bad idea. But for the sake of completeness, we should state sake of completeness, we should state sake of completeness, we should state there is not really a single scenario I there is not really a single scenario I there is not really a single scenario I can think of that is clinically relevant can think of that is clinically relevant can think of that is clinically relevant where it would be desirable to give up where it would be desirable to give up where it would be desirable to give up muscle mass. You know, maybe if you're muscle mass. You know, maybe if you're muscle mass. You know, maybe if you're Mr. Olympia, you can sacrifice muscle Mr. Olympia, you can sacrifice muscle Mr. Olympia, you can sacrifice muscle mass. But for you and me and I think mass. But for you and me and I think mass. But for you and me and I think everybody listening to us, giving up everybody listening to us, giving up everybody listening to us, giving up muscle mass because we are falling short muscle mass because we are falling short muscle mass because we are falling short on our protein intake would be a on our protein intake would be a on our protein intake would be a strategic error. and an unforced error. strategic error. and an unforced error. strategic error. and an unforced error. >> Exactly. I mean for short-term and

07:00>> Exactly. I mean for short-term and >> Exactly. I mean for short-term and long-term health. So I mean I think long-term health. So I mean I think long-term health. So I mean I think that's pretty clear and and that's where that's pretty clear and and that's where that's pretty clear and and that's where you know it come this this RDA not being you know it come this this RDA not being you know it come this this RDA not being enough is a very important point because enough is a very important point because enough is a very important point because if we look at the actual so let me go if we look at the actual so let me go if we look at the actual so let me go back to those isotracer isotope tracer back to those isotracer isotope tracer back to those isotracer isotope tracer studies those multiple studies okay studies those multiple studies okay studies those multiple studies okay multiple studies as you know have shown multiple studies as you know have shown multiple studies as you know have shown that the minimum that the minimum that the minimum >> and we'll link to these in the show >> and we'll link to these in the show >> and we'll link to these in the show notes by the way just so that people can notes by the way just so that people can notes by the way just so that people can go and actually look at the papers as go and actually look at the papers as go and actually look at the papers as opposed to reading about it on social opposed to reading about it on social opposed to reading about it on social media. media. media. >> Sounds good. Um multiple of these papers >> Sounds good. Um multiple of these papers >> Sounds good. Um multiple of these papers have shown that you know really going up have shown that you know really going up have shown that you know really going up to more like 1.2 grams per kilogram body to more like 1.2 grams per kilogram body to more like 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight per day is what is needed to weight per day is what is needed to weight per day is what is needed to prevent people us adults from being in prevent people us adults from being in prevent people us adults from being in this negative protein balance. this negative protein balance. this negative protein balance. >> That's quite a bit more than the 0.8 >> That's quite a bit more than the 0.8 >> That's quite a bit more than the 0.8 grams for% more right it's 50% more. So grams for% more right it's 50% more. So grams for% more right it's 50% more. So like most of the studies done iso like most of the studies done iso like most of the studies done iso isotope tracer studies are between 30 to isotope tracer studies are between 30 to isotope tracer studies are between 30 to 50% more. So that's really important 50% more. So that's really important 50% more. So that's really important because um if we look at the actual

08:00because um if we look at the actual because um if we look at the actual protein intakes of adults, you know, protein intakes of adults, you know, protein intakes of adults, you know, these are nutritional surveys that are these are nutritional surveys that are these are nutritional surveys that are done. Of course, they're all flawed. We done. Of course, they're all flawed. We done. Of course, they're all flawed. We can talk about I mean, we all know the can talk about I mean, we all know the can talk about I mean, we all know the the flaws of questionnaires and but the flaws of questionnaires and but the flaws of questionnaires and but let's just talk about like what we think let's just talk about like what we think let's just talk about like what we think people are actually taking in. Adults people are actually taking in. Adults people are actually taking in. Adults are mostly taking in all adults are are mostly taking in all adults are are mostly taking in all adults are taking in about 0.9 gram per kilogram taking in about 0.9 gram per kilogram taking in about 0.9 gram per kilogram body weight per day of protein. So body weight per day of protein. So body weight per day of protein. So pretty close to what that RDA is. not pretty close to what that RDA is. not pretty close to what that RDA is. not what it should be, right? Older adults, what it should be, right? Older adults, what it should be, right? Older adults, um, if we look at the gender, male um, if we look at the gender, male um, if we look at the gender, male versus female, males are taking in about versus female, males are taking in about versus female, males are taking in about 0.9 grams per kilogram body weight. 0.9 grams per kilogram body weight. 0.9 grams per kilogram body weight. Females are taking in point8. So, Females are taking in point8. So, Females are taking in point8. So, they're they're really just hitting that they're they're really just hitting that they're they're really just hitting that what we call RDA, which now we have what we call RDA, which now we have what we call RDA, which now we have established is not enough. The RDA is established is not enough. The RDA is established is not enough. The RDA is not enough to not to basically be in a a not enough to not to basically be in a a not enough to not to basically be in a a net protein balance. So, that's really net protein balance. So, that's really net protein balance. So, that's really important. And that's essentially important. And that's essentially important. And that's essentially telling us that most adults are walking telling us that most adults are walking telling us that most adults are walking around without being in a good, you around without being in a good, you around without being in a good, you know, in steady state protein balance, know, in steady state protein balance, know, in steady state protein balance, right? So they're right? So they're right? So they're >> So here's an interesting question, >> So here's an interesting question, >> So here's an interesting question, Rhonda. So we know the rates at which Rhonda. So we know the rates at which

09:00Rhonda. So we know the rates at which muscle mass, skeletal mass, um, are muscle mass, skeletal mass, um, are muscle mass, skeletal mass, um, are declining by decade in an aging declining by decade in an aging declining by decade in an aging population? population? population? Um, is there any way we can estimate I'm Um, is there any way we can estimate I'm Um, is there any way we can estimate I'm guessing the answer is no, but on the guessing the answer is no, but on the guessing the answer is no, but on the off chance you would know. So anyway, we off chance you would know. So anyway, we off chance you would know. So anyway, we can estimate what percent of that decay can estimate what percent of that decay can estimate what percent of that decay is simply being driven by is simply being driven by is simply being driven by uh insufficient amino acid consumption uh insufficient amino acid consumption uh insufficient amino acid consumption versus other factors, right? Other versus other factors, right? Other versus other factors, right? Other factors would be anabolic resistance factors would be anabolic resistance factors would be anabolic resistance associated with aging. Other factors associated with aging. Other factors associated with aging. Other factors would be anabolic resistance associated would be anabolic resistance associated would be anabolic resistance associated with sedentary behavior. Other factors with sedentary behavior. Other factors with sedentary behavior. Other factors would be lack of sufficient resistance would be lack of sufficient resistance would be lack of sufficient resistance training. Like there are many factors training. Like there are many factors training. Like there are many factors that explain clearly the fact that as a that explain clearly the fact that as a that explain clearly the fact that as a person goes from 50 to 60 to 70 on person goes from 50 to 60 to 70 on person goes from 50 to 60 to 70 on average they're losing muscle mass. But average they're losing muscle mass. But average they're losing muscle mass. But it would be interesting to consider how it would be interesting to consider how it would be interesting to consider how much of that is explained by the fact much of that is explained by the fact much of that is explained by the fact that they are also barely skirting the that they are also barely skirting the that they are also barely skirting the minimum amount of nitrogen that they minimum amount of nitrogen that they minimum amount of nitrogen that they need and in many cases falling below it. need and in many cases falling below it. need and in many cases falling below it. >> Right? I so to answer your question I >> Right? I so to answer your question I >> Right? I so to answer your question I don't know that there's a direct way to don't know that there's a direct way to don't know that there's a direct way to do that but I do know that there are

10:00do that but I do know that there are do that but I do know that there are studies that have shown that when older studies that have shown that when older studies that have shown that when older adults so older adults like that are adults so older adults like that are adults so older adults like that are really more suscept susceptible to the really more suscept susceptible to the really more suscept susceptible to the things that you were saying like things that you were saying like things that you were saying like anabolic resistance um where people are anabolic resistance um where people are anabolic resistance um where people are basic where your muscle tissue is not as basic where your muscle tissue is not as basic where your muscle tissue is not as sensitive to amino acids because of sensitive to amino acids because of sensitive to amino acids because of mostly because of phys physical mostly because of phys physical mostly because of phys physical inactivity which increases with age um inactivity which increases with age um inactivity which increases with age um but when older adults take in 1.2 two but when older adults take in 1.2 two but when older adults take in 1.2 two grams per kilogram body weight per day grams per kilogram body weight per day grams per kilogram body weight per day of protein. It it nearly eliminates um of protein. It it nearly eliminates um of protein. It it nearly eliminates um some of the age related muscle loss that some of the age related muscle loss that some of the age related muscle loss that happens. So I think that is some happens. So I think that is some happens. So I think that is some evidence to sort of support what you evidence to sort of support what you evidence to sort of support what you were saying in that if you just increase were saying in that if you just increase were saying in that if you just increase your protein intake your protein intake your protein intake >> to minimum yeah by 50% to this minimum >> to minimum yeah by 50% to this minimum >> to minimum yeah by 50% to this minimum what the RDA should be 1.2 gram per what the RDA should be 1.2 gram per what the RDA should be 1.2 gram per kilogram body weight per day. I think kilogram body weight per day. I think kilogram body weight per day. I think that's pretty much what most all the that's pretty much what most all the that's pretty much what most all the experts agree is that like it's time to experts agree is that like it's time to experts agree is that like it's time to change that RDA to that number, right? change that RDA to that number, right? change that RDA to that number, right? The minimal amount that you need per The minimal amount that you need per The minimal amount that you need per day. If we just do if older adults just day. If we just do if older adults just day. If we just do if older adults just do that, they're they're actually do that, they're they're actually do that, they're they're actually preventing a lot of the age related loss

11:00preventing a lot of the age related loss preventing a lot of the age related loss in muscle that occurs. And we also know in muscle that occurs. And we also know in muscle that occurs. And we also know that um older women, if they take in that um older women, if they take in that um older women, if they take in that amount of 1.2 grams per kilogram that amount of 1.2 grams per kilogram that amount of 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight per day, they're 30% less body weight per day, they're 30% less body weight per day, they're 30% less likely to have frailty in old age, which likely to have frailty in old age, which likely to have frailty in old age, which is also very important, right? So, I is also very important, right? So, I is also very important, right? So, I think that's pretty good evidence that think that's pretty good evidence that think that's pretty good evidence that it's clear that just increasing your it's clear that just increasing your it's clear that just increasing your protein intake by 50%. protein intake by 50%. protein intake by 50%. Is really important for aging, right, Is really important for aging, right, Is really important for aging, right, for our muscle for our muscle health and for our muscle for our muscle health and for our muscle for our muscle health and also is getting us out of that net also is getting us out of that net also is getting us out of that net negative state that we're in. So, I negative state that we're in. So, I negative state that we're in. So, I mean, mean, mean, >> so step one is we should move the floor >> so step one is we should move the floor >> so step one is we should move the floor from 08 to 1.2. from 08 to 1.2. from 08 to 1.2. >> Yes, I think the floor being the minimal >> Yes, I think the floor being the minimal >> Yes, I think the floor being the minimal amount of protein that we need to take amount of protein that we need to take amount of protein that we need to take in per day. This is not optimal. We're in per day. This is not optimal. We're in per day. This is not optimal. We're going to get into optimal, right? this going to get into optimal, right? this going to get into optimal, right? this is just like the new RDA, right? And and is just like the new RDA, right? And and is just like the new RDA, right? And and as you mentioned, so you kind of hit on as you mentioned, so you kind of hit on as you mentioned, so you kind of hit on this anabolic resistance, and I think this anabolic resistance, and I think this anabolic resistance, and I think that's also a really really important that's also a really really important that's also a really really important point because it does compound with the point because it does compound with the point because it does compound with the fact that we're already not getting fact that we're already not getting fact that we're already not getting enough protein to to to be in a a

12:00enough protein to to to be in a a enough protein to to to be in a a positive state of protein balance. And positive state of protein balance. And positive state of protein balance. And then you compound that with anabolic then you compound that with anabolic then you compound that with anabolic resistance. Right? Now, anabolic resistance. Right? Now, anabolic resistance. Right? Now, anabolic resistance is when your muscle tissue resistance is when your muscle tissue resistance is when your muscle tissue becomes less sensitive to amino acids. becomes less sensitive to amino acids. becomes less sensitive to amino acids. And so you're not making as much muscle And so you're not making as much muscle And so you're not making as much muscle protein synthesis isn't occurring as protein synthesis isn't occurring as protein synthesis isn't occurring as much as it does when you're younger. I much as it does when you're younger. I much as it does when you're younger. I think it's pretty consensus now that a think it's pretty consensus now that a think it's pretty consensus now that a lot of anabolic resistance is not lot of anabolic resistance is not lot of anabolic resistance is not necessarily aging the aging process per necessarily aging the aging process per necessarily aging the aging process per se so much as se so much as se so much as >> inactivity. >> inactivity. >> inactivity. >> Inactivity. >> Inactivity. >> Inactivity. >> Yeah. And the experiment that Luke von >> Yeah. And the experiment that Luke von >> Yeah. And the experiment that Luke von shared when he was on the podcast I shared when he was on the podcast I shared when he was on the podcast I think was a very elegant way to do this think was a very elegant way to do this think was a very elegant way to do this which is um they took uh young subjects which is um they took uh young subjects which is um they took uh young subjects I don't remember if they were in their I don't remember if they were in their I don't remember if they were in their 20s but it was thereabouts maybe in 20s but it was thereabouts maybe in 20s but it was thereabouts maybe in their 30s. So very young subjects and their 30s. So very young subjects and their 30s. So very young subjects and they put a cast on one leg, no cast on they put a cast on one leg, no cast on they put a cast on one leg, no cast on the other and they left them in this the other and they left them in this the other and they left them in this state for a period of time. Again, the state for a period of time. Again, the state for a period of time. Again, the details have now completely escaped me. details have now completely escaped me. details have now completely escaped me. But the the point is has not escaped me, But the the point is has not escaped me, But the the point is has not escaped me, which is after whatever period of time which is after whatever period of time which is after whatever period of time the individuals were casted on one leg, the individuals were casted on one leg, the individuals were casted on one leg, not casted on the other. Let's just say not casted on the other. Let's just say not casted on the other. Let's just say it was 2 weeks, four weeks, something to

13:00it was 2 weeks, four weeks, something to it was 2 weeks, four weeks, something to that effect. They removed the cast. Uh, that effect. They removed the cast. Uh, that effect. They removed the cast. Uh, of course, while the person was casted, of course, while the person was casted, of course, while the person was casted, the casted leg did nothing. The other the casted leg did nothing. The other the casted leg did nothing. The other leg continued to go through exercises. leg continued to go through exercises. leg continued to go through exercises. They were doing just single leg, you They were doing just single leg, you They were doing just single leg, you know, leg extensions, leg curls, things know, leg extensions, leg curls, things know, leg extensions, leg curls, things like that. They then ran the stable like that. They then ran the stable like that. They then ran the stable isotope experiment in these individuals isotope experiment in these individuals isotope experiment in these individuals and looked at muscle protein synthesis and looked at muscle protein synthesis and looked at muscle protein synthesis rates. And lo and behold, the rates. And lo and behold, the rates. And lo and behold, the individual, the leg that was unccasted, individual, the leg that was unccasted, individual, the leg that was unccasted, perfectly normal, the other one perfectly normal, the other one perfectly normal, the other one significant anabolic resistance. So to significant anabolic resistance. So to significant anabolic resistance. So to me, that's the clearest demonstration me, that's the clearest demonstration me, that's the clearest demonstration that inactivity is the main culprit. that inactivity is the main culprit. that inactivity is the main culprit. There's probably an all things equal age There's probably an all things equal age There's probably an all things equal age related component as well. Um but I related component as well. Um but I related component as well. Um but I suspect that inactivity is playing a suspect that inactivity is playing a suspect that inactivity is playing a larger role than aging per se. larger role than aging per se. larger role than aging per se. >> I totally agreed. Um yeah, I think there >> I totally agreed. Um yeah, I think there >> I totally agreed. Um yeah, I think there was there's also another study that was was there's also another study that was was there's also another study that was done in older adults. So first of all, done in older adults. So first of all, done in older adults. So first of all, if we if we look at maybe we should talk if we if we look at maybe we should talk if we if we look at maybe we should talk about about >> can we explain what anabolic resistance >> can we explain what anabolic resistance >> can we explain what anabolic resistance is? It's I think it's worth people is? It's I think it's worth people is? It's I think it's worth people understanding why this idea matters. understanding why this idea matters. understanding why this idea matters. >> Yeah. Anabolic resistance. So, so our

14:00>> Yeah. Anabolic resistance. So, so our >> Yeah. Anabolic resistance. So, so our when we eat protein, right, we we're when we eat protein, right, we we're when we eat protein, right, we we're breaking down amino acids and you know breaking down amino acids and you know breaking down amino acids and you know the primary amino acid that is that is the primary amino acid that is that is the primary amino acid that is that is anabolic is leucine, right? So these anabolic is leucine, right? So these anabolic is leucine, right? So these amino acids like leucine are getting amino acids like leucine are getting amino acids like leucine are getting into the muscle tissue and that is into the muscle tissue and that is into the muscle tissue and that is instigating it's a signal to increase instigating it's a signal to increase instigating it's a signal to increase muscle protein synthesis, right? So muscle protein synthesis, right? So muscle protein synthesis, right? So you're making more mus you're making you're making more mus you're making you're making more mus you're making more protein in your muscle and that in more protein in your muscle and that in more protein in your muscle and that in in turn increases muscle hypertrophy, in turn increases muscle hypertrophy, in turn increases muscle hypertrophy, right? Um the other major major signal right? Um the other major major signal right? Um the other major major signal to do that is mechanical force right. So to do that is mechanical force right. So to do that is mechanical force right. So that would be the resistance training that would be the resistance training that would be the resistance training the work working of the muscles. So as the work working of the muscles. So as the work working of the muscles. So as we get older our our muscles do become we get older our our muscles do become we get older our our muscles do become less sensitive to those amino acids like less sensitive to those amino acids like less sensitive to those amino acids like the lucine transporter being one of the the lucine transporter being one of the the lucine transporter being one of the major ways but I think there's others as major ways but I think there's others as major ways but I think there's others as well. And so what happens is is that for well. And so what happens is is that for well. And so what happens is is that for the same amount protein dose and this the same amount protein dose and this the same amount protein dose and this study has been done and if you compare study has been done and if you compare study has been done and if you compare younger adults and older adults 65 years younger adults and older adults 65 years younger adults and older adults 65 years age and older you give them the same age and older you give them the same age and older you give them the same exact protein dose. The older adults are

15:00exact protein dose. The older adults are exact protein dose. The older adults are have like so I guess I'll let me say it have like so I guess I'll let me say it have like so I guess I'll let me say it the other way. The younger adults have the other way. The younger adults have the other way. The younger adults have twice as much twice as much twice as much >> um muscle protein synthesis. And for the >> um muscle protein synthesis. And for the >> um muscle protein synthesis. And for the older adults to get the same amount of older adults to get the same amount of older adults to get the same amount of muscle protein synthesis, they had to muscle protein synthesis, they had to muscle protein synthesis, they had to double their amount of protein to get double their amount of protein to get double their amount of protein to get the same amount of muscle protein the same amount of muscle protein the same amount of muscle protein synthesis as the younger adults. That's synthesis as the younger adults. That's synthesis as the younger adults. That's a lot. They had to double that amount of a lot. They had to double that amount of a lot. They had to double that amount of protein. Okay? So, um, and that's protein. Okay? So, um, and that's protein. Okay? So, um, and that's because again, you need it's just your because again, you need it's just your because again, you need it's just your your muscle tissue is not as sensitive your muscle tissue is not as sensitive your muscle tissue is not as sensitive to the amino acids. And so, to get more to the amino acids. And so, to get more to the amino acids. And so, to get more of them in, you have to increase your of them in, you have to increase your of them in, you have to increase your intake of protein. Um, now to your point intake of protein. Um, now to your point intake of protein. Um, now to your point about physical activity being the major about physical activity being the major about physical activity being the major driver here, it's I think that's 100% I driver here, it's I think that's 100% I driver here, it's I think that's 100% I agree. think it's totally true and agree. think it's totally true and agree. think it's totally true and there's so much evidence out there to to there's so much evidence out there to to there's so much evidence out there to to prove that Luke Vanlon's study being prove that Luke Vanlon's study being prove that Luke Vanlon's study being one, but also older adults that do one, but also older adults that do one, but also older adults that do engage in resistance training have the engage in resistance training have the engage in resistance training have the same anabolic response to the same same anabolic response to the same same anabolic response to the same amount of protein as younger adults. So, amount of protein as younger adults. So, amount of protein as younger adults. So, in other words, in other words, in other words, >> the activity makes up for it. >> the activity makes up for it. >> the activity makes up for it. >> It does. You don't have to as you're >> It does. You don't have to as you're >> It does. You don't have to as you're aging, as you if you're a 65, 70year-old aging, as you if you're a 65, 70year-old aging, as you if you're a 65, 70year-old male listening to this episode and

16:00male listening to this episode and male listening to this episode and you're engaging resistance training, you're engaging resistance training, you're engaging resistance training, you're likely not experiencing much you're likely not experiencing much you're likely not experiencing much anabolic resistance. Maybe a little but anabolic resistance. Maybe a little but anabolic resistance. Maybe a little but not much. And so you don't necessarily not much. And so you don't necessarily not much. And so you don't necessarily have to experience it if you are have to experience it if you are have to experience it if you are physically active and training. And physically active and training. And physically active and training. And that's really the bottom line here. that's really the bottom line here. that's really the bottom line here. That's the most important thing. If That's the most important thing. If That's the most important thing. If there's a public health health message, there's a public health health message, there's a public health health message, you know, in this episode, it really is you know, in this episode, it really is you know, in this episode, it really is you should be training. you should be training. you should be training. >> Yeah. And think about the impact that >> Yeah. And think about the impact that >> Yeah. And think about the impact that physical training has on insulin physical training has on insulin physical training has on insulin resistance as well. Completely different resistance as well. Completely different resistance as well. Completely different mechanism of action. uh probably ties in mechanism of action. uh probably ties in mechanism of action. uh probably ties in more to, you know, uh fatty acid more to, you know, uh fatty acid more to, you know, uh fatty acid accumulation within muscles and all accumulation within muscles and all accumulation within muscles and all sorts of other things that lead to it. sorts of other things that lead to it. sorts of other things that lead to it. But again, the most effective remedy is But again, the most effective remedy is But again, the most effective remedy is physical activity. Um and again, this is physical activity. Um and again, this is physical activity. Um and again, this is Yeah, I mean, it's just it's been Yeah, I mean, it's just it's been Yeah, I mean, it's just it's been demonstrated so conclusively that demonstrated so conclusively that demonstrated so conclusively that actually nobody really talks about it. actually nobody really talks about it. actually nobody really talks about it. It's just taken for granted. It's just taken for granted. It's just taken for granted. >> No, it's a good point. Um but you know >> No, it's a good point. Um but you know >> No, it's a good point. Um but you know so so the anabolic resistance if we're so so the anabolic resistance if we're so so the anabolic resistance if we're if we're if we're talking about like if we're if we're talking about like if we're if we're talking about like general population and again we're going general population and again we're going general population and again we're going back to these surveys that are done back to these surveys that are done back to these surveys that are done looking at how physically active are

17:00looking at how physically active are looking at how physically active are people because those numbers are out people because those numbers are out people because those numbers are out there right we know that generally there right we know that generally there right we know that generally speaking adults including young and old speaking adults including young and old speaking adults including young and old adults about 32% of them engage in adults about 32% of them engage in adults about 32% of them engage in resistance training resistance training resistance training >> how much >> how much >> how much >> 32 >> 32 >> 32 both young and old both young and old both young and old >> if you just look at older adults it's >> if you just look at older adults it's >> if you just look at older adults it's 22% of the population So essentially, 22% of the population So essentially, 22% of the population So essentially, most older adults, most people are not most older adults, most people are not most older adults, most people are not engaging in resistance training. They're engaging in resistance training. They're engaging in resistance training. They're not they're not doing resistance not they're not doing resistance not they're not doing resistance training, right? Um and physical training, right? Um and physical training, right? Um and physical physical activity kind of mirrors a physical activity kind of mirrors a physical activity kind of mirrors a little bit those numbers, but I think little bit those numbers, but I think little bit those numbers, but I think the bottom line here is that the bottom line here is that the bottom line here is that most people putting in the effort, it's most people putting in the effort, it's most people putting in the effort, it's harder for people. Putting in the effort harder for people. Putting in the effort harder for people. Putting in the effort is harder. It's easier for them to just is harder. It's easier for them to just is harder. It's easier for them to just increase putting something in their increase putting something in their increase putting something in their mouth. That's why pills are so popular, mouth. That's why pills are so popular, mouth. That's why pills are so popular, right? I mean, people always kind of right? I mean, people always kind of right? I mean, people always kind of gravitate towards the easier thing to gravitate towards the easier thing to gravitate towards the easier thing to do, which is like, I'm going to eat do, which is like, I'm going to eat do, which is like, I'm going to eat something. I'm going to put something in something. I'm going to put something in something. I'm going to put something in my mouth versus like putting in the my mouth versus like putting in the my mouth versus like putting in the effort. It's unfortunate, but it's like effort. It's unfortunate, but it's like effort. It's unfortunate, but it's like it's a reality. And so, I think that

18:00it's a reality. And so, I think that it's a reality. And so, I think that even just going back to this RDA being even just going back to this RDA being even just going back to this RDA being too low, it's just so important. It's so too low, it's just so important. It's so too low, it's just so important. It's so important because people are out there important because people are out there important because people are out there thinking they're getting enough protein, thinking they're getting enough protein, thinking they're getting enough protein, older adults, younger adults. It's older adults, younger adults. It's older adults, younger adults. It's really more important with older adults. really more important with older adults. really more important with older adults. You have a little bit of wiggle room You have a little bit of wiggle room You have a little bit of wiggle room when you're younger, right? But I mean, when you're younger, right? But I mean, when you're younger, right? But I mean, and then on top of that, first of all, and then on top of that, first of all, and then on top of that, first of all, it's not enough protein. And then this it's not enough protein. And then this it's not enough protein. And then this anabolic resistance is setting in and anabolic resistance is setting in and anabolic resistance is setting in and most people are not being active. most people are not being active. most people are not being active. They're not engaging in resistance They're not engaging in resistance They're not engaging in resistance training. So there's all these training. So there's all these training. So there's all these compounding factors that's really just compounding factors that's really just compounding factors that's really just digging into their muscle. It's taking digging into their muscle. It's taking digging into their muscle. It's taking away this like insidious sort of taking away this like insidious sort of taking away this like insidious sort of taking away each year, each year, and then the away each year, each year, and then the away each year, each year, and then the next thing you know, you're frail, you next thing you know, you're frail, you next thing you know, you're frail, you have copenia, you know. have copenia, you know. have copenia, you know. >> Yeah. I I I my patients are obviously um >> Yeah. I I I my patients are obviously um >> Yeah. I I I my patients are obviously um indoctrinated into this, but I'm a bit indoctrinated into this, but I'm a bit indoctrinated into this, but I'm a bit surprised that there aren't more people surprised that there aren't more people surprised that there aren't more people that talk about this. You do a lot. Um that talk about this. You do a lot. Um that talk about this. You do a lot. Um but the the medical system doesn't seem but the the medical system doesn't seem but the the medical system doesn't seem to talk enough about frailty and to talk enough about frailty and to talk enough about frailty and sarcopenia. sarcopenia. sarcopenia. Um and and I worry that even when I Um and and I worry that even when I Um and and I worry that even when I wrote outlive, I didn't do enough of a

19:00wrote outlive, I didn't do enough of a wrote outlive, I didn't do enough of a job emphasizing it. I mean I certainly job emphasizing it. I mean I certainly job emphasizing it. I mean I certainly talked about it but when I talked about talked about it but when I talked about talked about it but when I talked about four horsemen I talked about four horsemen I talked about four horsemen I talked about cardiovascular and cerebrovascular cardiovascular and cerebrovascular cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disease, cancer, neurodeenerative and disease, cancer, neurodeenerative and disease, cancer, neurodeenerative and dementing diseases and metabolic disease dementing diseases and metabolic disease dementing diseases and metabolic disease because of course those are the things because of course those are the things because of course those are the things that are the main assault on your that are the main assault on your that are the main assault on your lifespan. Um and relative to those lifespan. Um and relative to those lifespan. Um and relative to those frailty is not as big as as big an frailty is not as big as as big an frailty is not as big as as big an assault on lifespan. It is, as you know, assault on lifespan. It is, as you know, assault on lifespan. It is, as you know, the risk of falls are enormous and the the risk of falls are enormous and the the risk of falls are enormous and the mortality is very high once you're north mortality is very high once you're north mortality is very high once you're north of 75. But relative to those four, it's, of 75. But relative to those four, it's, of 75. But relative to those four, it's, you know, I had to pick four horsemen. I you know, I had to pick four horsemen. I you know, I had to pick four horsemen. I didn't want to go with five. But when didn't want to go with five. But when didn't want to go with five. But when you think about quality of life, which you think about quality of life, which you think about quality of life, which most people care about at least as much, most people care about at least as much, most people care about at least as much, if not slightly more than length of if not slightly more than length of if not slightly more than length of life, I think frailty just kind of wins life, I think frailty just kind of wins life, I think frailty just kind of wins the day. Um I I think along with the day. Um I I think along with the day. Um I I think along with cognitive health, right, and and cognitive health, right, and and cognitive health, right, and and minimizing too much cognitive decline, minimizing too much cognitive decline, minimizing too much cognitive decline, frailty is the thing that seems to frailty is the thing that seems to frailty is the thing that seems to determine the quality of your final

20:00determine the quality of your final determine the quality of your final decade on this earth. And here we have decade on this earth. And here we have decade on this earth. And here we have lots of great tools both in terms of lots of great tools both in terms of lots of great tools both in terms of training and nutrition that can offset training and nutrition that can offset training and nutrition that can offset that. Um and yet it is surprising that that. Um and yet it is surprising that that. Um and yet it is surprising that that despite the fact that most people that despite the fact that most people that despite the fact that most people have witnessed it. That's the part have witnessed it. That's the part have witnessed it. That's the part that's amazing to me. It's not like the that's amazing to me. It's not like the that's amazing to me. It's not like the people who are suffering from frailty people who are suffering from frailty people who are suffering from frailty and sarcopenia are out of sight because and sarcopenia are out of sight because and sarcopenia are out of sight because they're our parents and our they're our parents and our they're our parents and our grandparents. We've watched it. We've grandparents. We've watched it. We've grandparents. We've watched it. We've been to the movie over and over and over been to the movie over and over and over been to the movie over and over and over again. We see how it goes. And yet again. We see how it goes. And yet again. We see how it goes. And yet somehow we either don't think it's going somehow we either don't think it's going somehow we either don't think it's going to happen to us or it somehow still to happen to us or it somehow still to happen to us or it somehow still seems abstract because it's so many seems abstract because it's so many seems abstract because it's so many years off. I mean, what's your take on years off. I mean, what's your take on years off. I mean, what's your take on this overall challenge? I I mean well this overall challenge? I I mean well this overall challenge? I I mean well for one I think that I I completely for one I think that I I completely for one I think that I I completely agree with the frailty risk being as agree with the frailty risk being as agree with the frailty risk being as important if not more and you know important if not more and you know important if not more and you know witnessing it with like family members witnessing it with like family members witnessing it with like family members you know it's it I what what I think it you know it's it I what what I think it you know it's it I what what I think it is is that it's like this incremental is is that it's like this incremental is is that it's like this incremental thing right where something happens to thing right where something happens to thing right where something happens to like maybe there's a fall or maybe like maybe there's a fall or maybe like maybe there's a fall or maybe there's just a surgery a planned surgery there's just a surgery a planned surgery there's just a surgery a planned surgery or a hip replacement or a knee

21:00or a hip replacement or a knee or a hip replacement or a knee replacement and pe and your your your replacement and pe and your your your replacement and pe and your your your parents or your grandparents are parents or your grandparents are parents or your grandparents are inactive for many weeks and they lose a inactive for many weeks and they lose a inactive for many weeks and they lose a lot of muscle mass, right? So, they this lot of muscle mass, right? So, they this lot of muscle mass, right? So, they this this happens when you're young. If this this happens when you're young. If this this happens when you're young. If this is if this is a younger person, it's is if this is a younger person, it's is if this is a younger person, it's much easier to gain back that muscle much easier to gain back that muscle much easier to gain back that muscle mass, right? It's not the same with an mass, right? It's not the same with an mass, right? It's not the same with an older adult. It's just not the same. older adult. It's just not the same. older adult. It's just not the same. Even if you're engaging in resistance Even if you're engaging in resistance Even if you're engaging in resistance training after, it's you're not going to training after, it's you're not going to training after, it's you're not going to get the same amount of muscle mass back get the same amount of muscle mass back get the same amount of muscle mass back as you've lost. And these sorts of as you've lost. And these sorts of as you've lost. And these sorts of events um kind of happen like in periods events um kind of happen like in periods events um kind of happen like in periods of time, right? where like there's a of time, right? where like there's a of time, right? where like there's a planned surgery, then there's a fall or planned surgery, then there's a fall or planned surgery, then there's a fall or maybe there's another surgery or maybe maybe there's another surgery or maybe maybe there's another surgery or maybe there's an the COVID or the flu or there's an the COVID or the flu or there's an the COVID or the flu or whatever it is, they keep hitting, whatever it is, they keep hitting, whatever it is, they keep hitting, right? And you you reach this sort of right? And you you reach this sort of right? And you you reach this sort of what's called disability threshold where what's called disability threshold where what's called disability threshold where all of a sudden your parents like they all of a sudden your parents like they all of a sudden your parents like they just can't walk much at all anymore. And just can't walk much at all anymore. And just can't walk much at all anymore. And it's like all of a sudden it's like when it's like all of a sudden it's like when it's like all of a sudden it's like when did this happen? Well, the evidence was did this happen? Well, the evidence was did this happen? Well, the evidence was like mounting over the last five years like mounting over the last five years like mounting over the last five years when they had these points of inactivity when they had these points of inactivity when they had these points of inactivity that that were occurring. And so I think that that were occurring. And so I think that that were occurring. And so I think people kind of just don't follow the

22:00people kind of just don't follow the people kind of just don't follow the timeline, you know, where it's like they timeline, you know, where it's like they timeline, you know, where it's like they see what's leading up to it and before see what's leading up to it and before see what's leading up to it and before this sort of catabolic crisis occurs this sort of catabolic crisis occurs this sort of catabolic crisis occurs where then they reach this point now where then they reach this point now where then they reach this point now where they've just lost so much muscle where they've just lost so much muscle where they've just lost so much muscle mass from these several events that have mass from these several events that have mass from these several events that have occurred where they're just not mobile occurred where they're just not mobile occurred where they're just not mobile and then of course anabolic resistance and then of course anabolic resistance and then of course anabolic resistance is kicking in even more and more and is kicking in even more and more and is kicking in even more and more and more and everything is just compounding. more and everything is just compounding. more and everything is just compounding. And I don't think they've like they've And I don't think they've like they've And I don't think they've like they've like observed the timeline and said, like observed the timeline and said, like observed the timeline and said, "Oh, A plus B plus C is getting me to "Oh, A plus B plus C is getting me to "Oh, A plus B plus C is getting me to this point, right?" And so I think this point, right?" And so I think this point, right?" And so I think that's kind of what happens. Whereas that's kind of what happens. Whereas that's kind of what happens. Whereas with Alzheimer's disease, I don't know. with Alzheimer's disease, I don't know. with Alzheimer's disease, I don't know. It's just like this disease everyone It's just like this disease everyone It's just like this disease everyone knows about and it's like, yeah, this knows about and it's like, yeah, this knows about and it's like, yeah, this one thing causes the problem. Do you one thing causes the problem. Do you one thing causes the problem. Do you know what I mean? know what I mean? know what I mean? >> Yeah. I I think and again um you know >> Yeah. I I think and again um you know >> Yeah. I I think and again um you know Luke Vanlon made a really good point Luke Vanlon made a really good point Luke Vanlon made a really good point when we spoke which was when we draw the when we spoke which was when we draw the when we spoke which was when we draw the curve for how people lose strength and curve for how people lose strength and curve for how people lose strength and how people lose muscle mass, we draw it how people lose muscle mass, we draw it how people lose muscle mass, we draw it in a curved smooth line, which gives us in a curved smooth line, which gives us in a curved smooth line, which gives us the incorrect impression that this is a the incorrect impression that this is a the incorrect impression that this is a gradual and um imperceptible changing

23:00gradual and um imperceptible changing gradual and um imperceptible changing physiologic process. But he goes that's physiologic process. But he goes that's physiologic process. But he goes that's because it's averaging everything. If because it's averaging everything. If because it's averaging everything. If you zoom in and look at it at the you zoom in and look at it at the you zoom in and look at it at the individual level, it looks like this. individual level, it looks like this. individual level, it looks like this. Exactly as you described, discrete Exactly as you described, discrete Exactly as you described, discrete periods of loss from which there is no periods of loss from which there is no periods of loss from which there is no recovery because at the later points in recovery because at the later points in recovery because at the later points in life, it becomes very difficult to make life, it becomes very difficult to make life, it becomes very difficult to make those recoveries. All of this of course those recoveries. All of this of course those recoveries. All of this of course points back to where we're going today, points back to where we're going today, points back to where we're going today, which is when you are young, and young which is when you are young, and young which is when you are young, and young is 40, 50, even 60, you have to build up is 40, 50, even 60, you have to build up is 40, 50, even 60, you have to build up as much physiologic headroom as as much physiologic headroom as as much physiologic headroom as possible. You have to prepare for the possible. You have to prepare for the possible. You have to prepare for the rainy day because the rainy day is rainy day because the rainy day is rainy day because the rainy day is coming. It's not a question of if. It's coming. It's not a question of if. It's coming. It's not a question of if. It's simply a question of when and exactly in simply a question of when and exactly in simply a question of when and exactly in what fashion it will be delivered. But what fashion it will be delivered. But what fashion it will be delivered. But you must prepare for this. You must you must prepare for this. You must you must prepare for this. You must steal yourself for what is coming. And steal yourself for what is coming. And steal yourself for what is coming. And you must build up as much muscle mass you must build up as much muscle mass you must build up as much muscle mass and strength and cardiovascular fitness and strength and cardiovascular fitness and strength and cardiovascular fitness as you can muster because the longer you

24:00as you can muster because the longer you as you can muster because the longer you can ride it out, the better you're going can ride it out, the better you're going can ride it out, the better you're going to be. to be. to be. >> The cliff is coming for sure. I mean, >> The cliff is coming for sure. I mean, >> The cliff is coming for sure. I mean, it's like your retirement fund, right? it's like your retirement fund, right? it's like your retirement fund, right? you have to you have to put money in you have to you have to put money in you have to you have to put money in because one day you will retire and if because one day you will retire and if because one day you will retire and if you don't put any money in that fund you don't put any money in that fund you don't put any money in that fund you're gonna be you're gonna be screwed. you're gonna be you're gonna be screwed. you're gonna be you're gonna be screwed. And so with the muscle mass, um, you're And so with the muscle mass, um, you're And so with the muscle mass, um, you're right, you have to bank as much as you right, you have to bank as much as you right, you have to bank as much as you can while you're young. And we haven't can while you're young. And we haven't can while you're young. And we haven't even talked about optimal. We've just even talked about optimal. We've just even talked about optimal. We've just talked about like like talked about like like talked about like like >> not going backwards, right? >> not going backwards, right? >> not going backwards, right? >> Yeah. We've talked about not going >> Yeah. We've talked about not going >> Yeah. We've talked about not going backwards, which is what most people are backwards, which is what most people are backwards, which is what most people are doing, right? Because this RDA is too doing, right? Because this RDA is too doing, right? Because this RDA is too low for one. I think that's the the big low for one. I think that's the the big low for one. I think that's the the big the big problem. the big problem. the big problem. >> Um, but but optimal is a whole other >> Um, but but optimal is a whole other >> Um, but but optimal is a whole other story, right? And that's again where it story, right? And that's again where it story, right? And that's again where it is hard to is hard to is hard to it's hard to kind of wrap your head it's hard to kind of wrap your head it's hard to kind of wrap your head around why there's controversy around around why there's controversy around around why there's controversy around this. Although coming from the field of this. Although coming from the field of this. Although coming from the field of aging, I do have somewhat of a I think aging, I do have somewhat of a I think aging, I do have somewhat of a I think there's been a little bit of a nuanced there's been a little bit of a nuanced there's been a little bit of a nuanced um you know there's a nuanced approach um you know there's a nuanced approach um you know there's a nuanced approach to looking at how protein affects the to looking at how protein affects the to looking at how protein affects the way we age. And I think some of that

25:00way we age. And I think some of that way we age. And I think some of that data has biased researchers and you know data has biased researchers and you know data has biased researchers and you know people to think that protein is bad. I people to think that protein is bad. I people to think that protein is bad. I think some of it's coming from that think some of it's coming from that think some of it's coming from that evidence which we talking point. Yep. evidence which we talking point. Yep. evidence which we talking point. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. >> But um but again aside from that it's >> But um but again aside from that it's >> But um but again aside from that it's really hard to understand why someone really hard to understand why someone really hard to understand why someone would be so opposed to increasing would be so opposed to increasing would be so opposed to increasing protein intake when there's really just protein intake when there's really just protein intake when there's really just no evidence that it's harmful at least no evidence that it's harmful at least no evidence that it's harmful at least in healthy adults. in healthy adults. in healthy adults. >> Yeah. I mean, I' I'd like to talk about >> Yeah. I mean, I' I'd like to talk about >> Yeah. I mean, I' I'd like to talk about harm down the line as we get further up harm down the line as we get further up harm down the line as we get further up the chain because we're we've now just I the chain because we're we've now just I the chain because we're we've now just I I like the way we're talking about this I like the way we're talking about this I like the way we're talking about this where we're going from sort of the where we're going from sort of the where we're going from sort of the point8 up to 1.2 and now let's talk point8 up to 1.2 and now let's talk point8 up to 1.2 and now let's talk about going from 1.2 to 1.6 and 1.6 six about going from 1.2 to 1.6 and 1.6 six about going from 1.2 to 1.6 and 1.6 six to two and but as you continue this um to two and but as you continue this um to two and but as you continue this um journey and you let's say you look at journey and you let's say you look at journey and you let's say you look at the data of which there are some studies the data of which there are some studies the data of which there are some studies looking at three grams per kilogram per looking at three grams per kilogram per looking at three grams per kilogram per per day um which I think anybody who per day um which I think anybody who per day um which I think anybody who looks at the data would argue you're not looks at the data would argue you're not looks at the data would argue you're not really getting a benefit at three grams really getting a benefit at three grams really getting a benefit at three grams per day that you aren't getting at 2 g per day that you aren't getting at 2 g per day that you aren't getting at 2 g per day you're not like the the curve is

26:00per day you're not like the the curve is per day you're not like the the curve is saturating you know you're hitting an saturating you know you're hitting an saturating you know you're hitting an asmtote of muscle protein synthesis at asmtote of muscle protein synthesis at asmtote of muscle protein synthesis at that point so there may be other reasons that point so there may be other reasons that point so there may be other reasons a person would choose to consume consume a person would choose to consume consume a person would choose to consume consume that much protein satiety and things of that much protein satiety and things of that much protein satiety and things of that nature, but from a purely anabolic that nature, but from a purely anabolic that nature, but from a purely anabolic reason under normal conditions. So, reason under normal conditions. So, reason under normal conditions. So, let's leave bodybuilding out of it. Um, let's leave bodybuilding out of it. Um, let's leave bodybuilding out of it. Um, you you sort of hit the saturation you you sort of hit the saturation you you sort of hit the saturation curve, but can't seem to find the curve, but can't seem to find the curve, but can't seem to find the evidence that it's causing any harm, evidence that it's causing any harm, evidence that it's causing any harm, right? So, this is experimental right? So, this is experimental right? So, this is experimental evidence, even epidemiologic evidence, evidence, even epidemiologic evidence, evidence, even epidemiologic evidence, just no evidence. So, but that said, just no evidence. So, but that said, just no evidence. So, but that said, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's go back to we've established a new go back to we've established a new go back to we've established a new floor. Really, there is nobody that floor. Really, there is nobody that floor. Really, there is nobody that should be consuming less than 1.2 2 g of should be consuming less than 1.2 2 g of should be consuming less than 1.2 2 g of protein per uh per kilogram per day. protein per uh per kilogram per day. protein per uh per kilogram per day. What happens as we start to increase What happens as we start to increase What happens as we start to increase that from 1.2 to 1.6? that from 1.2 to 1.6? that from 1.2 to 1.6? >> Great question. And this is again is >> Great question. And this is again is >> Great question. And this is again is where I turn to the experts like Stu where I turn to the experts like Stu where I turn to the experts like Stu Phillips. In fact, he did a really great Phillips. In fact, he did a really great Phillips. In fact, he did a really great metaanalysis metaanalysis metaanalysis looking at about 49 different studies in looking at about 49 different studies in looking at about 49 different studies in adults that were undergoing this. These adults that were undergoing this. These adults that were undergoing this. These are controlled trials. resistance

27:00are controlled trials. resistance are controlled trials. resistance training alone or resistance training training alone or resistance training training alone or resistance training plus supplemental protein. And the plus supplemental protein. And the plus supplemental protein. And the supplemental protein went up to 1.6 well supplemental protein went up to 1.6 well supplemental protein went up to 1.6 well actually went up above that. But um what actually went up above that. But um what actually went up above that. But um what was really found in that study was that was really found in that study was that was really found in that study was that even going from like 1.2 g per kilogram even going from like 1.2 g per kilogram even going from like 1.2 g per kilogram body weight per day obviously to 1.6 six body weight per day obviously to 1.6 six body weight per day obviously to 1.6 six grams per kilogram body weight people grams per kilogram body weight people grams per kilogram body weight people gained about 27% more lean body mass and gained about 27% more lean body mass and gained about 27% more lean body mass and 10% more muscle strength 10% more muscle strength 10% more muscle strength >> compared to just training alone same >> compared to just training alone same >> compared to just training alone same training just adding the protein right training just adding the protein right training just adding the protein right >> um that's pretty big >> um that's pretty big >> um that's pretty big >> I I was going to say that is bigger than >> I I was going to say that is bigger than >> I I was going to say that is bigger than I would expect especially on the I would expect especially on the I would expect especially on the strength side strength side strength side >> ex in the strength side they they were >> ex in the strength side they they were >> ex in the strength side they they were gaining so the protein itself gaining so the protein itself gaining so the protein itself >> but if you think about it in a way we're >> but if you think about it in a way we're >> but if you think about it in a way we're talking about supply and demand right so talking about supply and demand right so talking about supply and demand right so now we're talking about more optimal, a now we're talking about more optimal, a now we're talking about more optimal, a little more optimal. We're talking about little more optimal. We're talking about little more optimal. We're talking about people that are training. That's number people that are training. That's number people that are training. That's number one. You need to be training. If we're

28:00one. You need to be training. If we're one. You need to be training. If we're talking about optimal protein intake, talking about optimal protein intake, talking about optimal protein intake, you need to be training. Um, and then you need to be training. Um, and then you need to be training. Um, and then you know what's happening when you're you know what's happening when you're you know what's happening when you're training is you're breaking down muscle. training is you're breaking down muscle. training is you're breaking down muscle. You need protein to support the repair You need protein to support the repair You need protein to support the repair of that muscle and the rebuilding of it. of that muscle and the rebuilding of it. of that muscle and the rebuilding of it. And so that makes sense in a way. And so that makes sense in a way. And so that makes sense in a way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, but yeah, I was surprised by the >> Um, but yeah, I was surprised by the >> Um, but yeah, I was surprised by the strength as well. And so really once you strength as well. And so really once you strength as well. And so really once you get once you went above 1.6 grams you get once you went above 1.6 grams you get once you went above 1.6 grams you would there was still increases in would there was still increases in would there was still increases in muscle protein. muscle protein. muscle protein. >> The curve is slowing down. >> The curve is slowing down. >> The curve is slowing down. >> It's it was it's I like the the analogy >> It's it was it's I like the the analogy >> It's it was it's I like the the analogy that Stu Phillips uses. He says like if that Stu Phillips uses. He says like if that Stu Phillips uses. He says like if you have like a wet washcloth you have like a wet washcloth you have like a wet washcloth >> and you squeeze all you squeeze it to >> and you squeeze all you squeeze it to >> and you squeeze all you squeeze it to get all the water out, you know, like get all the water out, you know, like get all the water out, you know, like most of that water is coming out at 1.6 most of that water is coming out at 1.6 most of that water is coming out at 1.6 g per kilogram body weight. But you can g per kilogram body weight. But you can g per kilogram body weight. But you can keep squeezing a little and you're keep squeezing a little and you're keep squeezing a little and you're getting you're still getting some water getting you're still getting some water getting you're still getting some water out. It's just it's just sort of out. It's just it's just sort of out. It's just it's just sort of marginal. It's like most people don't marginal. It's like most people don't marginal. It's like most people don't care about that difference. Some people care about that difference. Some people care about that difference. Some people do. Now, let's say you're someone that's do. Now, let's say you're someone that's do. Now, let's say you're someone that's obsessed with banking muscle mass. obsessed with banking muscle mass. obsessed with banking muscle mass. You're going to care about that. Let's

29:00You're going to care about that. Let's You're going to care about that. Let's say you're a, you know, a high level say you're a, you know, a high level say you're a, you know, a high level athlete, definitely going to have to go athlete, definitely going to have to go athlete, definitely going to have to go above 1.6, right? That's when you get above 1.6, right? That's when you get above 1.6, right? That's when you get into the more two 2.2 g per kilogram into the more two 2.2 g per kilogram into the more two 2.2 g per kilogram body weight. So, people that are doing a body weight. So, people that are doing a body weight. So, people that are doing a high level of training, whether that's high level of training, whether that's high level of training, whether that's endurance or strength training, endurance or strength training, endurance or strength training, resistance training, right? because resistance training, right? because resistance training, right? because endurance athletes I mean they're endurance athletes I mean they're endurance athletes I mean they're they're you you were battling cat um they're you you were battling cat um they're you you were battling cat um being catabolic. being catabolic. being catabolic. >> So um so that would be I think I think >> So um so that would be I think I think >> So um so that would be I think I think the evidence for more optimal you're the evidence for more optimal you're the evidence for more optimal you're talking about 1.6 g per kilogram body talking about 1.6 g per kilogram body talking about 1.6 g per kilogram body weight and then you can you can get weight and then you can you can get weight and then you can you can get marginal benefits above that right up to marginal benefits above that right up to marginal benefits above that right up to like 2 2.2 two grams per kilogram body like 2 2.2 two grams per kilogram body like 2 2.2 two grams per kilogram body weight. But again, that's again people weight. But again, that's again people weight. But again, that's again people that are really training. that are really training. that are really training. >> Yeah. To me, there's an analogy here >> Yeah. To me, there's an analogy here >> Yeah. To me, there's an analogy here with APOB and cardiovascular disease. with APOB and cardiovascular disease. with APOB and cardiovascular disease. Right. So, um if you look at the uh the Right. So, um if you look at the uh the Right. So, um if you look at the uh the three bodies of evidence, so if you look three bodies of evidence, so if you look three bodies of evidence, so if you look at all of the epidemiologic data, if you at all of the epidemiologic data, if you at all of the epidemiologic data, if you look at all of the clinical trial data, look at all of the clinical trial data, look at all of the clinical trial data, and if you look at all of the Mandelian and if you look at all of the Mandelian and if you look at all of the Mandelian randomization data, and you plot every randomization data, and you plot every randomization data, and you plot every single one of them on a graph, and

30:00single one of them on a graph, and single one of them on a graph, and there's a beautiful graph, which we'll there's a beautiful graph, which we'll there's a beautiful graph, which we'll include in the show notes, that does include in the show notes, that does include in the show notes, that does this. So on the x-axis you and it's done this. So on the x-axis you and it's done this. So on the x-axis you and it's done in LDLC but again LDLC apo easy easy in LDLC but again LDLC apo easy easy in LDLC but again LDLC apo easy easy easy to sort of uh view them together. easy to sort of uh view them together. easy to sort of uh view them together. So you have on the x axis you have LDLC So you have on the x axis you have LDLC So you have on the x axis you have LDLC going down right so from 160 140 120 you going down right so from 160 140 120 you going down right so from 160 140 120 you know 100 80 60 so descending LDLC and on know 100 80 60 so descending LDLC and on know 100 80 60 so descending LDLC and on the y- axis you have mortality the y- axis you have mortality the y- axis you have mortality cardiovascular mortality so not cardiovascular mortality so not cardiovascular mortality so not surprisingly all of these point down as surprisingly all of these point down as surprisingly all of these point down as LDLC goes lower uh mort cardiovascular LDLC goes lower uh mort cardiovascular LDLC goes lower uh mort cardiovascular mortality goes lower um what's mortality goes lower um what's mortality goes lower um what's interesting though is you can see that interesting though is you can see that interesting though is you can see that there are different points in the curve there are different points in the curve there are different points in the curve at which it starts to matter more and at at which it starts to matter more and at at which it starts to matter more and at some point it flattens out. You don't some point it flattens out. You don't some point it flattens out. You don't get as much benefit from reduction. And get as much benefit from reduction. And get as much benefit from reduction. And so we could use the same argument of so we could use the same argument of so we could use the same argument of well what is optimal? What is so so well what is optimal? What is so so well what is optimal? What is so so because we're doing the reverse here because we're doing the reverse here because we're doing the reverse here lower is better as opposed to going up lower is better as opposed to going up lower is better as opposed to going up on protein. But um on protein. But um on protein. But um Peter Libby has done an analysis that

31:00Peter Libby has done an analysis that Peter Libby has done an analysis that has demonstrated that you will continue has demonstrated that you will continue has demonstrated that you will continue to see a meaningful reduction in to see a meaningful reduction in to see a meaningful reduction in cardiovascular disease as APOB heads cardiovascular disease as APOB heads cardiovascular disease as APOB heads towards 30 milligs per deciliter. 30 towards 30 milligs per deciliter. 30 towards 30 milligs per deciliter. 30 milligrams per deciliter is really low milligrams per deciliter is really low milligrams per deciliter is really low by most people's standards. For context, by most people's standards. For context, by most people's standards. For context, 60 milligrams per deciliter is about the 60 milligrams per deciliter is about the 60 milligrams per deciliter is about the fifth percentile at the population fifth percentile at the population fifth percentile at the population level. 30 milligs per deciliter is about level. 30 milligs per deciliter is about level. 30 milligs per deciliter is about what a child is. So, you know, we're what a child is. So, you know, we're what a child is. So, you know, we're born with relatively low levels of APOB born with relatively low levels of APOB born with relatively low levels of APOB and as we age, they just keep going up and as we age, they just keep going up and as we age, they just keep going up and up and up. Um, which of course is and up and up. Um, which of course is and up and up. Um, which of course is one of the things that's driving one of the things that's driving one of the things that's driving cardiovascular disease is this rise in cardiovascular disease is this rise in cardiovascular disease is this rise in APO. So, the question then becomes, how APO. So, the question then becomes, how APO. So, the question then becomes, how low do you need to go? Should everybody low do you need to go? Should everybody low do you need to go? Should everybody be walking around at 30 milligrams per be walking around at 30 milligrams per be walking around at 30 milligrams per deciliter? Is that the solution to deciliter? Is that the solution to deciliter? Is that the solution to eliminating ASBD? And the answer is eliminating ASBD? And the answer is eliminating ASBD? And the answer is probably not, right? It probably depends probably not, right? It probably depends probably not, right? It probably depends on your previous exposure though, right? on your previous exposure though, right? on your previous exposure though, right? So if I have a patient who's already had So if I have a patient who's already had So if I have a patient who's already had two stances placed and has a significant two stances placed and has a significant two stances placed and has a significant burden of disease, you bet your bottom burden of disease, you bet your bottom burden of disease, you bet your bottom line they're at 30 milligrams per line they're at 30 milligrams per line they're at 30 milligrams per deciliter of apo even if we have to put

32:00deciliter of apo even if we have to put deciliter of apo even if we have to put three drugs on them to make sure that's three drugs on them to make sure that's three drugs on them to make sure that's the case because their burden of disease the case because their burden of disease the case because their burden of disease and their lifetime exposure to apo has and their lifetime exposure to apo has and their lifetime exposure to apo has been so high. But if I have an been so high. But if I have an been so high. But if I have an individual who's 40 years old who has individual who's 40 years old who has individual who's 40 years old who has perfectly pristine coronary arteries and perfectly pristine coronary arteries and perfectly pristine coronary arteries and is walking around with an APO of 60 is walking around with an APO of 60 is walking around with an APO of 60 milligrams per deciliter, I don't think milligrams per deciliter, I don't think milligrams per deciliter, I don't think you need to do a thing. I think they're you need to do a thing. I think they're you need to do a thing. I think they're just fine. And again, it's it's it's the just fine. And again, it's it's it's the just fine. And again, it's it's it's the inability, I think, for people to inability, I think, for people to inability, I think, for people to understand that level of nuance and understand that level of nuance and understand that level of nuance and understanding when it's worth the second understanding when it's worth the second understanding when it's worth the second squeeze versus when just the sloppy squeeze versus when just the sloppy squeeze versus when just the sloppy squeeze is good enough is is is is very squeeze is good enough is is is is very squeeze is good enough is is is is very frustrating for a person like me who frustrating for a person like me who frustrating for a person like me who craves nuance. craves nuance. craves nuance. >> Right. Agreed. I love that analogy and I >> Right. Agreed. I love that analogy and I >> Right. Agreed. I love that analogy and I think it's perfect because again I I do think it's perfect because again I I do think it's perfect because again I I do think most people that are training think most people that are training think most people that are training probably are getting a great amount of probably are getting a great amount of probably are getting a great amount of benefit from 1.6 g per kilogram body benefit from 1.6 g per kilogram body benefit from 1.6 g per kilogram body weight. Um but that doesn't mean you weight. Um but that doesn't mean you weight. Um but that doesn't mean you can't go above that and still get a can't go above that and still get a can't go above that and still get a little more benefit, right? And as little more benefit, right? And as little more benefit, right? And as certainly when you start to get into certainly when you start to get into certainly when you start to get into that, you know, energy deficit phase as

33:00that, you know, energy deficit phase as that, you know, energy deficit phase as well, like so we were talking about well, like so we were talking about well, like so we were talking about elite, you know, endurance athletes, elite, you know, endurance athletes, elite, you know, endurance athletes, that's one way to be in an energy that's one way to be in an energy that's one way to be in an energy deficit. But there's also people that deficit. But there's also people that deficit. But there's also people that are actively trying to lose fat, gain are actively trying to lose fat, gain are actively trying to lose fat, gain muscle. If you want to lose fat and gain muscle. If you want to lose fat and gain muscle. If you want to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, you're going to muscle at the same time, you're going to muscle at the same time, you're going to have to take in a lot of protein. have to take in a lot of protein. have to take in a lot of protein. >> Yeah. And and so that's another very >> Yeah. And and so that's another very >> Yeah. And and so that's another very important point. Another point I want to important point. Another point I want to important point. Another point I want to make is you're still dealing with an make is you're still dealing with an make is you're still dealing with an asymmetric target. And so we tell our asymmetric target. And so we tell our asymmetric target. And so we tell our patients to be closer to two. Now, I patients to be closer to two. Now, I patients to be closer to two. Now, I know that's just going to get a whole know that's just going to get a whole know that's just going to get a whole bunch of people on the anti-protein bunch of people on the anti-protein bunch of people on the anti-protein train just losing their mind. I can just train just losing their mind. I can just train just losing their mind. I can just see the phosphorilation going off right see the phosphorilation going off right see the phosphorilation going off right now as they're watching this clip. How now as they're watching this clip. How now as they're watching this clip. How is this guy so irresponsible to tell his is this guy so irresponsible to tell his is this guy so irresponsible to tell his patients to eat 2 g of protein per patients to eat 2 g of protein per patients to eat 2 g of protein per kilogram of body weight? Didn't he just kilogram of body weight? Didn't he just kilogram of body weight? Didn't he just hear what Rhonda said? 1.6 is good hear what Rhonda said? 1.6 is good hear what Rhonda said? 1.6 is good enough for most people. Well, my enough for most people. Well, my enough for most people. Well, my patients unfortunately don't live in patients unfortunately don't live in patients unfortunately don't live in labs. Unfortunately, Rhonda, my patients labs. Unfortunately, Rhonda, my patients labs. Unfortunately, Rhonda, my patients live in this place. It's called the real live in this place. It's called the real live in this place. It's called the real world. And in the real world, you can't world. And in the real world, you can't world. And in the real world, you can't always hit your targets. Some days you

34:00always hit your targets. Some days you always hit your targets. Some days you do, some days you don't. Some days do, some days you don't. Some days do, some days you don't. Some days you're traveling, some days you're not. you're traveling, some days you're not. you're traveling, some days you're not. Some days you can figure it out, some Some days you can figure it out, some Some days you can figure it out, some days you can't. So, days you can't. So, days you can't. So, if I'm telling somebody to hit 1.6 and if I'm telling somebody to hit 1.6 and if I'm telling somebody to hit 1.6 and one day they're at 1.2, 2. Another day one day they're at 1.2, 2. Another day one day they're at 1.2, 2. Another day they're at 1.7. Another day they're at they're at 1.7. Another day they're at they're at 1.7. Another day they're at 1.5. Another day they're at 1.9. On 1.5. Another day they're at 1.9. On 1.5. Another day they're at 1.9. On average they might hit 1.6. But how many average they might hit 1.6. But how many average they might hit 1.6. But how many days were they below versus how many days were they below versus how many days were they below versus how many days were they above? Let's just say days were they above? Let's just say days were they above? Let's just say it's an equal split. But we've just it's an equal split. But we've just it's an equal split. But we've just established the shape of this curve is established the shape of this curve is established the shape of this curve is like this. So that means every day like this. So that means every day like this. So that means every day you're below the downside is much you're below the downside is much you're below the downside is much greater than the upside of being above. greater than the upside of being above. greater than the upside of being above. In other words, all the days you're In other words, all the days you're In other words, all the days you're above are not making up for all the days above are not making up for all the days above are not making up for all the days you're below. So, what I'd really like you're below. So, what I'd really like you're below. So, what I'd really like to do is shift the range so that your to do is shift the range so that your to do is shift the range so that your low day is 1.6 and your high day is low day is 1.6 and your high day is low day is 1.6 and your high day is maybe 2.2. And then guess what? You maybe 2.2. And then guess what? You maybe 2.2. And then guess what? You don't have days where you are ever ever

35:00don't have days where you are ever ever don't have days where you are ever ever amino acid restricted. amino acid restricted. amino acid restricted. >> Right? And this is the difference >> Right? And this is the difference >> Right? And this is the difference between people who take care of people between people who take care of people between people who take care of people in the real world and bozos who write on in the real world and bozos who write on in the real world and bozos who write on Substack who don't know the first thing Substack who don't know the first thing Substack who don't know the first thing about clinical medicine when it comes to about clinical medicine when it comes to about clinical medicine when it comes to managing athletes and people who have to managing athletes and people who have to managing athletes and people who have to fend for themselves every day with every fend for themselves every day with every fend for themselves every day with every meal. And this is why I'm so tired of meal. And this is why I'm so tired of meal. And this is why I'm so tired of talking about this, but I feel we need talking about this, but I feel we need talking about this, but I feel we need to talk about it. And so if you're to talk about it. And so if you're to talk about it. And so if you're sitting there listening to this and sitting there listening to this and sitting there listening to this and you're confused and you're asking, "Oh you're confused and you're asking, "Oh you're confused and you're asking, "Oh my god, should I be eating two grams per my god, should I be eating two grams per my god, should I be eating two grams per day?" Yeah, more or less. And that way, day?" Yeah, more or less. And that way, day?" Yeah, more or less. And that way, if you fall short at 1.6, you can be if you fall short at 1.6, you can be if you fall short at 1.6, you can be confident that you're okay. But if confident that you're okay. But if confident that you're okay. But if you're aiming at 1.6 and you have a bad you're aiming at 1.6 and you have a bad you're aiming at 1.6 and you have a bad day, and you will when you hit 1.2, you day, and you will when you hit 1.2, you day, and you will when you hit 1.2, you might be taking a step backwards and you might be taking a step backwards and you might be taking a step backwards and you won't make up for it the next day. I won't make up for it the next day. I won't make up for it the next day. I >> I can just tell you um from personal >> I can just tell you um from personal >> I can just tell you um from personal experience, it it it's actually smarter experience, it it it's actually smarter experience, it it it's actually smarter to aim higher because I'm constantly not to aim higher because I'm constantly not to aim higher because I'm constantly not meeting the one. meeting the one. meeting the one. >> I am not. This is the thing. People look >> I am not. This is the thing. People look >> I am not. This is the thing. People look at me like I'm a protein eating machine, at me like I'm a protein eating machine, at me like I'm a protein eating machine, which first of all, I'm not. But which first of all, I'm not. But which first of all, I'm not. But secondly, I have a hard time hitting my

36:00secondly, I have a hard time hitting my secondly, I have a hard time hitting my goals, too. I'm busy. I miss meals. goals, too. I'm busy. I miss meals. goals, too. I'm busy. I miss meals. Sometimes we just have a low protein Sometimes we just have a low protein Sometimes we just have a low protein meal. Like, for whatever reason, my kids meal. Like, for whatever reason, my kids meal. Like, for whatever reason, my kids want to have pasta for dinner, and they want to have pasta for dinner, and they want to have pasta for dinner, and they don't. And we literally have pasta and don't. And we literally have pasta and don't. And we literally have pasta and sauce. It's like there's no freaking sauce. It's like there's no freaking sauce. It's like there's no freaking protein in this anyway. So, it's very protein in this anyway. So, it's very protein in this anyway. So, it's very difficult if you don't have a chef difficult if you don't have a chef difficult if you don't have a chef preparing your every meal. And I never preparing your every meal. And I never preparing your every meal. And I never have a chef preparing any of my meals have a chef preparing any of my meals have a chef preparing any of my meals unless I'm out at a restaurant to hit unless I'm out at a restaurant to hit unless I'm out at a restaurant to hit these targets every day, these targets every day, these targets every day, >> right? Um, and also I just I I was >> right? Um, and also I just I I was >> right? Um, and also I just I I was thinking about this because we mentioned thinking about this because we mentioned thinking about this because we mentioned the 1.2 being the sort of the minimum the 1.2 being the sort of the minimum the 1.2 being the sort of the minimum buy in. The 1.6 g per kilogram body buy in. The 1.6 g per kilogram body buy in. The 1.6 g per kilogram body isn't necessarily just for people isn't necessarily just for people isn't necessarily just for people training a little bit. It's also older training a little bit. It's also older training a little bit. It's also older adults that are not training like adults that are not training like adults that are not training like because we talked about the anabolic because we talked about the anabolic because we talked about the anabolic resistance, I'm needing twice as much resistance, I'm needing twice as much resistance, I'm needing twice as much protein as well. And so what you're protein as well. And so what you're protein as well. And so what you're talking about here is going up to two so talking about here is going up to two so talking about here is going up to two so that you can really have an average at that you can really have an average at that you can really have an average at least of 1.6, right? You're getting that least of 1.6, right? You're getting that least of 1.6, right? You're getting that average. But again, average. But again, average. But again, >> well, and it's just I never want to fall >> well, and it's just I never want to fall >> well, and it's just I never want to fall below that. That's really the point is I below that. That's really the point is I below that. That's really the point is I know because again, I'm training every

37:00know because again, I'm training every know because again, I'm training every single day right now. Am I training like single day right now. Am I training like single day right now. Am I training like a madman? No. But seven days a week, I'm a madman? No. But seven days a week, I'm a madman? No. But seven days a week, I'm either doing some form of cardio or either doing some form of cardio or either doing some form of cardio or something in the gym. So it's just I something in the gym. So it's just I something in the gym. So it's just I know that I'm going to take steps know that I'm going to take steps know that I'm going to take steps backwards if I'm below 1.6. So, I'm backwards if I'm below 1.6. So, I'm backwards if I'm below 1.6. So, I'm going to overshoot so that my down day going to overshoot so that my down day going to overshoot so that my down day is 1.6, is 1.6, is 1.6, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And if my upday is 2.5 once in a while, >> And if my upday is 2.5 once in a while, >> And if my upday is 2.5 once in a while, who cares? Because that gets to the next who cares? Because that gets to the next who cares? Because that gets to the next point. Show me the data. Show me the point. Show me the data. Show me the point. Show me the data. Show me the data that eating 2.5 gram of protein per data that eating 2.5 gram of protein per data that eating 2.5 gram of protein per kilogram per day is even remotely kilogram per day is even remotely kilogram per day is even remotely harmful. I'm still waiting for it. I'm harmful. I'm still waiting for it. I'm harmful. I'm still waiting for it. I'm still waiting for the data. David still waiting for the data. David still waiting for the data. David Allison wrote a piece on LinkedIn Allison wrote a piece on LinkedIn Allison wrote a piece on LinkedIn recently where it was basically a call recently where it was basically a call recently where it was basically a call to anyone. Just show me the data that to anyone. Just show me the data that to anyone. Just show me the data that meet these criteria. human clinical meet these criteria. human clinical meet these criteria. human clinical trial of this duration d like nothing trial of this duration d like nothing trial of this duration d like nothing but crickets. but crickets. but crickets. >> Yeah. I mean I haven't seen any human >> Yeah. I mean I haven't seen any human >> Yeah. I mean I haven't seen any human data either for sure. data either for sure. data either for sure. >> I mean the most negative data I saw >> I mean the most negative data I saw >> I mean the most negative data I saw recently was a study that looked at recently was a study that looked at recently was a study that looked at total parental nutrition in ICU patients

38:00total parental nutrition in ICU patients total parental nutrition in ICU patients where the question was hey should we be where the question was hey should we be where the question was hey should we be ramming high amounts of protein in these ramming high amounts of protein in these ramming high amounts of protein in these people and the most negative thing you people and the most negative thing you people and the most negative thing you could say is it had no benefit. could say is it had no benefit. could say is it had no benefit. >> And that's interesting. Yeah. >> And that's interesting. Yeah. >> And that's interesting. Yeah. >> Right. So maybe we shouldn't be ramming >> Right. So maybe we shouldn't be ramming >> Right. So maybe we shouldn't be ramming high protein total parental nutrition high protein total parental nutrition high protein total parental nutrition into the central veins of critically ill into the central veins of critically ill into the central veins of critically ill ICU patients. Um but it didn't harm ICU patients. Um but it didn't harm ICU patients. Um but it didn't harm them. And if anybody's going to be them. And if anybody's going to be them. And if anybody's going to be harmed, I would think it's the people harmed, I would think it's the people harmed, I would think it's the people that are in renal failure. that are in renal failure. that are in renal failure. >> Right. Yeah. Exactly. Um I haven't seen >> Right. Yeah. Exactly. Um I haven't seen >> Right. Yeah. Exactly. Um I haven't seen that data either. that data either. that data either. >> We haven't spoken specifically about >> We haven't spoken specifically about >> We haven't spoken specifically about pregnancy or adolescence. What do we pregnancy or adolescence. What do we pregnancy or adolescence. What do we know about protein requirements? Cuz know about protein requirements? Cuz know about protein requirements? Cuz there are clearly women listening to us there are clearly women listening to us there are clearly women listening to us right now who are pregnant or who will right now who are pregnant or who will right now who are pregnant or who will be pregnant. Um, and I don't think there be pregnant. Um, and I don't think there be pregnant. Um, and I don't think there are any adolescence listening to us, but are any adolescence listening to us, but are any adolescence listening to us, but I bet there are parents of adolescence. I bet there are parents of adolescence. I bet there are parents of adolescence. Um, so what what kind of guidance would Um, so what what kind of guidance would Um, so what what kind of guidance would we want to would we want to give these? we want to would we want to give these? we want to would we want to give these? >> I mean, it's just it it goes up with >> I mean, it's just it it goes up with >> I mean, it's just it it goes up with with pregnancy and also adolescence. I with pregnancy and also adolescence. I with pregnancy and also adolescence. I mean, so mean, so mean, so >> are there formal recommendations? I I >> are there formal recommendations? I I >> are there formal recommendations? I I don't pay. don't pay. don't pay. >> I don't remember the exact but again >> I don't remember the exact but again >> I don't remember the exact but again it's all about like going a little bit it's all about like going a little bit it's all about like going a little bit above what's the RDA and we've already above what's the RDA and we've already above what's the RDA and we've already established that's not enough, established that's not enough, established that's not enough, >> right? So I mean honestly I think if

39:00>> right? So I mean honestly I think if >> right? So I mean honestly I think if people are listening to this episode people are listening to this episode people are listening to this episode just knowing that 0.8 8 g per kilogram just knowing that 0.8 8 g per kilogram just knowing that 0.8 8 g per kilogram body weight per day is just it's not body weight per day is just it's not body weight per day is just it's not enough at all. enough at all. enough at all. >> So if we accomplish nothing else that >> So if we accomplish nothing else that >> So if we accomplish nothing else that that's the single most important that's the single most important that's the single most important take-home message here. take-home message here. take-home message here. >> I really think it is because everyone >> I really think it is because everyone >> I really think it is because everyone looks at those guidelines, you know. looks at those guidelines, you know. looks at those guidelines, you know. >> Yeah. It's really funny. The other day I >> Yeah. It's really funny. The other day I >> Yeah. It's really funny. The other day I was eating something and I forget how was eating something and I forget how was eating something and I forget how much protein it had in it, but it had much protein it had in it, but it had much protein it had in it, but it had like percent of daily requirement, but like percent of daily requirement, but like percent of daily requirement, but it was obviously baked to a very low it was obviously baked to a very low it was obviously baked to a very low number because I remember my son was number because I remember my son was number because I remember my son was looking at it with me and he goes, "Is looking at it with me and he goes, "Is looking at it with me and he goes, "Is that really like I forget what the that really like I forget what the that really like I forget what the number was. that really like 40% of your number was. that really like 40% of your number was. that really like 40% of your daily protein requirement and it was a daily protein requirement and it was a daily protein requirement and it was a relatively and I said no but I just relatively and I said no but I just relatively and I said no but I just didn't have the energy to explain the didn't have the energy to explain the didn't have the energy to explain the RDA to him so I was like no this is just RDA to him so I was like no this is just RDA to him so I was like no this is just wrong you can ignore this wrong you can ignore this wrong you can ignore this >> growing is also an important um time for >> growing is also an important um time for >> growing is also an important um time for protein right because protein right because protein right because these amino acids and the essential these amino acids and the essential these amino acids and the essential amino acids are activating IGF-1 growth amino acids are activating IGF-1 growth amino acids are activating IGF-1 growth hormone and that's really important for hormone and that's really important for hormone and that's really important for growth I know there were studies done in growth I know there were studies done in growth I know there were studies done in like infants um and and toddlers that

40:00like infants um and and toddlers that like infants um and and toddlers that were given were given were given egg versus like milk versus like some egg versus like milk versus like some egg versus like milk versus like some kind of vegan protein. And it was like kind of vegan protein. And it was like kind of vegan protein. And it was like clear that the egg was the winner here. clear that the egg was the winner here. clear that the egg was the winner here. Like giving protein with essent more Like giving protein with essent more Like giving protein with essent more essential amino acids was important for essential amino acids was important for essential amino acids was important for growing taller. And that's always growing taller. And that's always growing taller. And that's always something that I as a as a mom think something that I as a as a mom think something that I as a as a mom think about, right? I'm always trying to get about, right? I'm always trying to get about, right? I'm always trying to get protein in my son. Plus, the kids are protein in my son. Plus, the kids are protein in my son. Plus, the kids are more active. You know, kids are more more active. You know, kids are more more active. You know, kids are more physically active. They're doing sports physically active. They're doing sports physically active. They're doing sports and things like that, right? and things like that, right? and things like that, right? Adolescence. So, it's really it's really Adolescence. So, it's really it's really Adolescence. So, it's really it's really important to get the protein important to get the protein important to get the protein requirements. I don't I haven't dug into requirements. I don't I haven't dug into requirements. I don't I haven't dug into all the nuanced of that data. It's just all the nuanced of that data. It's just all the nuanced of that data. It's just kind of my the way I look at it is, you kind of my the way I look at it is, you kind of my the way I look at it is, you know, it's it's gota it's got to be like know, it's it's gota it's got to be like know, it's it's gota it's got to be like a 1.2. Even though that's an adult, it's a 1.2. Even though that's an adult, it's a 1.2. Even though that's an adult, it's more like a 1.2 gram per kilogram for an more like a 1.2 gram per kilogram for an more like a 1.2 gram per kilogram for an adolescent who's pretty close in in body adolescent who's pretty close in in body adolescent who's pretty close in in body size to to an adult. Generally speaking, size to to an adult. Generally speaking, size to to an adult. Generally speaking, they start growing pretty tall. they start growing pretty tall. they start growing pretty tall. >> Yeah. I mean, I I would think for kids >> Yeah. I mean, I I would think for kids >> Yeah. I mean, I I would think for kids it should be at least the 1.2 to 1.6. it should be at least the 1.2 to 1.6. it should be at least the 1.2 to 1.6. anything any I mean again I I just look anything any I mean again I I just look anything any I mean again I I just look at the activity level of my kids is they

41:00at the activity level of my kids is they at the activity level of my kids is they make me look sedentary make me look sedentary make me look sedentary >> right >> right >> right >> so >> so >> so >> um okay anything else we want to say on >> um okay anything else we want to say on >> um okay anything else we want to say on the topic of protein to help with some the topic of protein to help with some the topic of protein to help with some of the confusion that is out there I of the confusion that is out there I of the confusion that is out there I think we should talk a little bit about think we should talk a little bit about think we should talk a little bit about some of the misconstrued understanding some of the misconstrued understanding some of the misconstrued understanding of of of mechanisms of action around mTor cancer mechanisms of action around mTor cancer mechanisms of action around mTor cancer and stuff like that and stuff like that and stuff like that >> um I would say the other thing would >> um I would say the other thing would >> um I would say the other thing would um the calorie restriction, people doing um the calorie restriction, people doing um the calorie restriction, people doing intermittent fasting, people doing intermittent fasting, people doing intermittent fasting, people doing anything if they want to do body anything if they want to do body anything if they want to do body recomposition, the the gaining of muscle recomposition, the the gaining of muscle recomposition, the the gaining of muscle and you know losing fat. I think that is and you know losing fat. I think that is and you know losing fat. I think that is a very specific a very specific a very specific >> you know group of or population of >> you know group of or population of >> you know group of or population of people where the high protein intake is people where the high protein intake is people where the high protein intake is critical, right? Because if you're in a critical, right? Because if you're in a critical, right? Because if you're in a caloric deficit, you really are battling caloric deficit, you really are battling caloric deficit, you really are battling your body pulling from your muscle your body pulling from your muscle your body pulling from your muscle reserve. If you're resistance training, reserve. If you're resistance training, reserve. If you're resistance training, that helps somewhat, but you're that helps somewhat, but you're that helps somewhat, but you're certainly not going to gain muscle. And certainly not going to gain muscle. And certainly not going to gain muscle. And we just talked about wanting to bank as we just talked about wanting to bank as we just talked about wanting to bank as much muscle as possible as we're younger

42:00much muscle as possible as we're younger much muscle as possible as we're younger while we can, right? Because we need while we can, right? Because we need while we can, right? Because we need that reserve because we're going to that reserve because we're going to that reserve because we're going to start pulling from it eventually. And so start pulling from it eventually. And so start pulling from it eventually. And so I think that that's where you start to I think that that's where you start to I think that that's where you start to get really high numbers, 2.2, even get really high numbers, 2.2, even get really high numbers, 2.2, even higher. I mean, there you can find higher. I mean, there you can find higher. I mean, there you can find studies the studies out there, it's like studies the studies out there, it's like studies the studies out there, it's like three grams per kilogram per body three grams per kilogram per body three grams per kilogram per body weight. All going above the 1.6 in this weight. All going above the 1.6 in this weight. All going above the 1.6 in this in this scenario seems to be key as in this scenario seems to be key as in this scenario seems to be key as well. when you you're getting up to that well. when you you're getting up to that well. when you you're getting up to that 2.2 2 grams per kilogram body weight per 2.2 2 grams per kilogram body weight per 2.2 2 grams per kilogram body weight per day because it does give you a little day because it does give you a little day because it does give you a little bit more edge over uh gaining muscle bit more edge over uh gaining muscle bit more edge over uh gaining muscle muscle protein synthesis in combination muscle protein synthesis in combination muscle protein synthesis in combination with resistance training. Um as well as with resistance training. Um as well as with resistance training. Um as well as it's like you mentioned it's you know it's like you mentioned it's you know it's like you mentioned it's you know satiating. It's a little bit satiating. It's a little bit satiating. It's a little bit thermogenic. I don't know that that's thermogenic. I don't know that that's thermogenic. I don't know that that's the big the big mechanism here but I the big the big mechanism here but I the big the big mechanism here but I think the big mechanism here is just think the big mechanism here is just think the big mechanism here is just that like you you're you're really that like you you're you're really that like you you're you're really wanting to prevent this catabolism, wanting to prevent this catabolism, wanting to prevent this catabolism, right? So, I think that's just another right? So, I think that's just another right? So, I think that's just another important point because there are a lot important point because there are a lot important point because there are a lot of people that do intermittent fasting, of people that do intermittent fasting, of people that do intermittent fasting, timerestricted eating, you know, they're timerestricted eating, you know, they're timerestricted eating, you know, they're they're trying to do body recmp, gain they're trying to do body recmp, gain they're trying to do body recmp, gain muscle, lose fat. It's a I think a lot muscle, lose fat. It's a I think a lot muscle, lose fat. It's a I think a lot of people are interested in that.

43:00of people are interested in that. of people are interested in that. >> There was one period of my life when um >> There was one period of my life when um >> There was one period of my life when um over the course of a year, I made a very over the course of a year, I made a very over the course of a year, I made a very dedicated goal to lose body weight and dedicated goal to lose body weight and dedicated goal to lose body weight and gain muscle. So, I wanted to see like gain muscle. So, I wanted to see like gain muscle. So, I wanted to see like could this be done? And it did require could this be done? And it did require could this be done? And it did require quite a bit of intermittent fasting um quite a bit of intermittent fasting um quite a bit of intermittent fasting um or timerestricted eating I suppose to be or timerestricted eating I suppose to be or timerestricted eating I suppose to be more accurate. But the amount of more accurate. But the amount of more accurate. But the amount of attention I had to pay to protein intake attention I had to pay to protein intake attention I had to pay to protein intake was pretty incredible. And what I did was pretty incredible. And what I did was pretty incredible. And what I did that seems counterintuitive because I I that seems counterintuitive because I I that seems counterintuitive because I I wasn't intermittent fasting because I wasn't intermittent fasting because I wasn't intermittent fasting because I believed that a fasted state was believed that a fasted state was believed that a fasted state was producing some benefit. Right? So you producing some benefit. Right? So you producing some benefit. Right? So you know there are some people who think know there are some people who think know there are some people who think that if I don't eat breakfast I'm that if I don't eat breakfast I'm that if I don't eat breakfast I'm kicking off some autophagy or something. kicking off some autophagy or something. kicking off some autophagy or something. No no it wasn't. It was purely a caloric No no it wasn't. It was purely a caloric No no it wasn't. It was purely a caloric restriction ploy. So my fasting window restriction ploy. So my fasting window restriction ploy. So my fasting window did not prevent consuming liquid did not prevent consuming liquid did not prevent consuming liquid protein. protein. protein. In other words, if I wasn't eating In other words, if I wasn't eating In other words, if I wasn't eating breakfast or lunch, which I wasn't, I breakfast or lunch, which I wasn't, I breakfast or lunch, which I wasn't, I was only having a meal a day, which was was only having a meal a day, which was was only having a meal a day, which was dinner, but I would still consume dinner, but I would still consume dinner, but I would still consume protein shakes outside of those windows. protein shakes outside of those windows. protein shakes outside of those windows. Otherwise, I could never hit the protein

44:00Otherwise, I could never hit the protein Otherwise, I could never hit the protein target. So, I was in a caloric deficit, target. So, I was in a caloric deficit, target. So, I was in a caloric deficit, but an amino acid excess. And again, you but an amino acid excess. And again, you but an amino acid excess. And again, you can actually do that with liquid protein can actually do that with liquid protein can actually do that with liquid protein pretty easily because basically all pretty easily because basically all pretty easily because basically all you're getting is, you know, you're you're getting is, you know, you're you're getting is, you know, you're getting relatively few calories because getting relatively few calories because getting relatively few calories because you're just consuming whey protein. you're just consuming whey protein. you're just consuming whey protein. >> Did you have any like GI like problems >> Did you have any like GI like problems >> Did you have any like GI like problems consuming so many shakes? No, really. I consuming so many shakes? No, really. I consuming so many shakes? No, really. I get get get >> No, but I did a lot of experimentation, >> No, but I did a lot of experimentation, >> No, but I did a lot of experimentation, right? So, ultimately I settled on a right? So, ultimately I settled on a right? So, ultimately I settled on a brand. I'm blanking on the name of it brand. I'm blanking on the name of it brand. I'm blanking on the name of it now. I have no affiliation with these now. I have no affiliation with these now. I have no affiliation with these guys and I'm blanking on their name. guys and I'm blanking on their name. guys and I'm blanking on their name. Ascent maybe. Does that ring a bell? Ascent maybe. Does that ring a bell? Ascent maybe. Does that ring a bell? >> Yeah. I really like them. Again, I'll >> Yeah. I really like them. Again, I'll >> Yeah. I really like them. Again, I'll give them a shout out because give them a shout out because give them a shout out because one, one, one, it was the only protein I found I could it was the only protein I found I could it was the only protein I found I could mix directly in water and not have it be mix directly in water and not have it be mix directly in water and not have it be lumpy. I didn't even need a blender. lumpy. I didn't even need a blender. lumpy. I didn't even need a blender. This was a This sounds silly, but This was a This sounds silly, but This was a This sounds silly, but >> the hassle of me having to like wash a >> the hassle of me having to like wash a >> the hassle of me having to like wash a blender twice a day was sometimes an blender twice a day was sometimes an blender twice a day was sometimes an impediment to not making a shake. Um, so impediment to not making a shake. Um, so impediment to not making a shake. Um, so just to be able to put the scoop or two just to be able to put the scoop or two just to be able to put the scoop or two scoops I would usually put into a glass scoops I would usually put into a glass scoops I would usually put into a glass with water and mix it with a fork and

45:00with water and mix it with a fork and with water and mix it with a fork and actually drink it and have it be totally actually drink it and have it be totally actually drink it and have it be totally fine and not, you know, lumpy. I don't fine and not, you know, lumpy. I don't fine and not, you know, lumpy. I don't know how they do this, but it was know how they do this, but it was know how they do this, but it was amazing. It actually tasted fine. I amazing. It actually tasted fine. I amazing. It actually tasted fine. I don't like sweet drinks that much, but don't like sweet drinks that much, but don't like sweet drinks that much, but it it's was not too sweet. Um, and it it's was not too sweet. Um, and it it's was not too sweet. Um, and absolutely no GI issues at all. Whereas absolutely no GI issues at all. Whereas absolutely no GI issues at all. Whereas sometimes the pure egg proteins, I just sometimes the pure egg proteins, I just sometimes the pure egg proteins, I just I I didn't like the feeling on my gut. I I didn't like the feeling on my gut. I I didn't like the feeling on my gut. Um, so for whatever reason that worked Um, so for whatever reason that worked Um, so for whatever reason that worked for me. Um, but but to your point it is for me. Um, but but to your point it is for me. Um, but but to your point it is it's another level of challenge if it's another level of challenge if it's another level of challenge if you're trying to recmp in that way, you're trying to recmp in that way, you're trying to recmp in that way, >> right? Or or people on GLP1, right? >> right? Or or people on GLP1, right? >> right? Or or people on GLP1, right? Receptor agonist, right? I mean like Receptor agonist, right? I mean like Receptor agonist, right? I mean like >> and I don't know how >> and I don't know how >> and I don't know how how you know I how difficult it is like how you know I how difficult it is like how you know I how difficult it is like to eat a meal versus like take a protein to eat a meal versus like take a protein to eat a meal versus like take a protein shake cuz I know you like you don't have shake cuz I know you like you don't have shake cuz I know you like you don't have a a real you're you're satiated pretty a a real you're you're satiated pretty a a real you're you're satiated pretty much all the time. you don't have a real much all the time. you don't have a real much all the time. you don't have a real appetite, but also digestion is slowed. appetite, but also digestion is slowed. appetite, but also digestion is slowed. So, if you're like consuming more So, if you're like consuming more So, if you're like consuming more protein, like I don't know how that all protein, like I don't know how that all protein, like I don't know how that all affects affects affects >> we we've seen in our patients. So, >> we we've seen in our patients. So, >> we we've seen in our patients. So, again, I would say um I get asked this again, I would say um I get asked this again, I would say um I get asked this all the time. I would say all the time. I would say all the time. I would say 15 to 20% of our patients are on

46:0015 to 20% of our patients are on 15 to 20% of our patients are on tepatide. tepatide. tepatide. Um and unlike Um and unlike Um and unlike 5 years ago when we started using 5 years ago when we started using 5 years ago when we started using semiglutide in patients and were just semiglutide in patients and were just semiglutide in patients and were just watching muscle fall off these people watching muscle fall off these people watching muscle fall off these people and and frankly my point of view 5 years and and frankly my point of view 5 years and and frankly my point of view 5 years ago was I don't know about these drugs. ago was I don't know about these drugs. ago was I don't know about these drugs. I I think you know I think there's some I I think you know I think there's some I I think you know I think there's some benefit in some people but I I think benefit in some people but I I think benefit in some people but I I think there's a lot of downside. I I today there's a lot of downside. I I today there's a lot of downside. I I today think that virtually anybody can use think that virtually anybody can use think that virtually anybody can use these drugs safely but and by safely I I these drugs safely but and by safely I I these drugs safely but and by safely I I don't just mean in the obvious sense of don't just mean in the obvious sense of don't just mean in the obvious sense of the word. I mean, safely for long-term the word. I mean, safely for long-term the word. I mean, safely for long-term muscle health as well, right? Um, but it muscle health as well, right? Um, but it muscle health as well, right? Um, but it requires a ton of deliberate attention. requires a ton of deliberate attention. requires a ton of deliberate attention. So, I'm glad you brought it up. That's So, I'm glad you brought it up. That's So, I'm glad you brought it up. That's this is exactly the group of people who this is exactly the group of people who this is exactly the group of people who you want to be using easy to digest you want to be using easy to digest you want to be using easy to digest protein sources. Um, and if you're on protein sources. Um, and if you're on protein sources. Um, and if you're on epatide, you don't really want a steak. epatide, you don't really want a steak. epatide, you don't really want a steak. You know, you don't really want to have You know, you don't really want to have You know, you don't really want to have a big chicken breast. You you know, you a big chicken breast. You you know, you a big chicken breast. You you know, you might not want to even have an omelette.

47:00might not want to even have an omelette. might not want to even have an omelette. Um, but if we have to make sure you're Um, but if we have to make sure you're Um, but if we have to make sure you're hitting that 1.6, hitting that 1.6, hitting that 1.6, um, you might be doing a bunch of liquid um, you might be doing a bunch of liquid um, you might be doing a bunch of liquid shakes, shakes, shakes, >> right? >> right? >> Yeah, we can sit here and poo poo >> Yeah, we can sit here and poo poo >> Yeah, we can sit here and poo poo processed food and say, "How disgusting processed food and say, "How disgusting processed food and say, "How disgusting is it that people have to resort to is it that people have to resort to is it that people have to resort to eating shakes?" Okay, fine. But if the eating shakes?" Okay, fine. But if the eating shakes?" Okay, fine. But if the alternative is they're not getting alternative is they're not getting alternative is they're not getting enough protein and they're on a drug enough protein and they're on a drug enough protein and they're on a drug that is making them anorexic, that is making them anorexic, that is making them anorexic, I mean, we know we we also know the I mean, we know we we also know the I mean, we know we we also know the downside of that. downside of that. downside of that. >> Well, the answer's clear, right? You >> Well, the answer's clear, right? You >> Well, the answer's clear, right? You don't want to be losing muscle mass for don't want to be losing muscle mass for don't want to be losing muscle mass for sure. My point is, you know, we do DEEXA sure. My point is, you know, we do DEEXA sure. My point is, you know, we do DEEXA before and after. We're not seeing the before and after. We're not seeing the before and after. We're not seeing the type of muscle loss we saw with our, you type of muscle loss we saw with our, you type of muscle loss we saw with our, you know, V1 approach to this, know, V1 approach to this, know, V1 approach to this, >> right? What what kind of dose are they >> right? What what kind of dose are they >> right? What what kind of dose are they on like a higher dose? on like a higher dose? on like a higher dose? >> I mean, I think for look for, you know, >> I mean, I think for look for, you know, >> I mean, I think for look for, you know, tracepide starts at 2.5. Some people are tracepide starts at 2.5. Some people are tracepide starts at 2.5. Some people are are getting enough benefit there. I are getting enough benefit there. I are getting enough benefit there. I mean, the other thing that I I think our mean, the other thing that I I think our mean, the other thing that I I think our approach has been is that um slow and approach has been is that um slow and approach has been is that um slow and steady wins the race, right? So, we've steady wins the race, right? So, we've steady wins the race, right? So, we've seen anecdotally some data uh I've seen

48:00seen anecdotally some data uh I've seen seen anecdotally some data uh I've seen I've heard from uh from others and we've I've heard from uh from others and we've I've heard from uh from others and we've seen it as well that yo-yoing on and off seen it as well that yo-yoing on and off seen it as well that yo-yoing on and off these drugs is probably a bad idea. So, these drugs is probably a bad idea. So, these drugs is probably a bad idea. So, I always tell a patient, look, I' i'd I always tell a patient, look, I' i'd I always tell a patient, look, I' i'd probably rather you were on 2.5 probably rather you were on 2.5 probably rather you were on 2.5 milligrams until there was a new drug milligrams until there was a new drug milligrams until there was a new drug that we felt was even better than you that we felt was even better than you that we felt was even better than you you're on 10 milligrams, you lose a ton you're on 10 milligrams, you lose a ton you're on 10 milligrams, you lose a ton of weight, you come off, you gain, you of weight, you come off, you gain, you of weight, you come off, you gain, you go back on, you lose. It's like I this go back on, you lose. It's like I this go back on, you lose. It's like I this the idea of being on a a saw is is the idea of being on a a saw is is the idea of being on a a saw is is probably a bad idea. Um I think the data probably a bad idea. Um I think the data probably a bad idea. Um I think the data uh suggests you're getting most of the uh suggests you're getting most of the uh suggests you're getting most of the value by about 10 milligrams. So once value by about 10 milligrams. So once value by about 10 milligrams. So once you go to 12.5 and 15, which are the two you go to 12.5 and 15, which are the two you go to 12.5 and 15, which are the two highest doses, you're still getting a highest doses, you're still getting a highest doses, you're still getting a benefit. Um but it's, you know, it's benefit. Um but it's, you know, it's benefit. Um but it's, you know, it's like most drugs, you're getting most of like most drugs, you're getting most of like most drugs, you're getting most of the benefit at the lowest dose. So 5 to the benefit at the lowest dose. So 5 to the benefit at the lowest dose. So 5 to 7.5 milligrams of trespide is probably 7.5 milligrams of trespide is probably 7.5 milligrams of trespide is probably where you're getting the majority of the where you're getting the majority of the where you're getting the majority of the dose. And again, I I'd much rather a dose. And again, I I'd much rather a dose. And again, I I'd much rather a patient be sort of slow and steady on it patient be sort of slow and steady on it patient be sort of slow and steady on it and as opposed to try to go for maximum and as opposed to try to go for maximum and as opposed to try to go for maximum and rapid weight loss.

49:00and rapid weight loss. and rapid weight loss. >> What do you what do you think about some >> What do you what do you think about some >> What do you what do you think about some of that data on like heart issues or of that data on like heart issues or of that data on like heart issues or bone loss? Um do you think does that bone loss? Um do you think does that bone loss? Um do you think does that concern you at all? concern you at all? concern you at all? >> Sure. I think it all does. I mean I >> Sure. I think it all does. I mean I >> Sure. I think it all does. I mean I think all of this stuff has to be paid think all of this stuff has to be paid think all of this stuff has to be paid attention to and and I think the attention to and and I think the attention to and and I think the question again comes back to how much of question again comes back to how much of question again comes back to how much of that is occurring due to um due due to that is occurring due to um due due to that is occurring due to um due due to training, right? How much of that is training, right? How much of that is training, right? How much of that is happening due to the loss of amino acid happening due to the loss of amino acid happening due to the loss of amino acid intake and the loss of training intake and the loss of training intake and the loss of training >> or the neuroscychiatric I mean like >> or the neuroscychiatric I mean like >> or the neuroscychiatric I mean like that's another one of the eyes what I'm that's another one of the eyes what I'm that's another one of the eyes what I'm interested in is you know we have these interested in is you know we have these interested in is you know we have these GLP1 receptors like on so many different GLP1 receptors like on so many different GLP1 receptors like on so many different tissues so what systemically like how is tissues so what systemically like how is tissues so what systemically like how is it beneficial is it not beneficial like it beneficial is it not beneficial like it beneficial is it not beneficial like I don't know that we really know we have I don't know that we really know we have I don't know that we really know we have we have data where there's obviously we have data where there's obviously we have data where there's obviously positive effects you see like reduced positive effects you see like reduced positive effects you see like reduced Alzheimer's disease incidence with Alzheimer's disease incidence with Alzheimer's disease incidence with people taking these GLP1 receptor people taking these GLP1 receptor people taking these GLP1 receptor agonist but is that how much is that is agonist but is that how much is that is agonist but is that how much is that is it due to like weight loss right it due to like weight loss right it due to like weight loss right >> yeah we we've looked into this a lot >> yeah we we've looked into this a lot >> yeah we we've looked into this a lot because I'm I do remain because I'm I do remain because I'm I do remain you know it's funny we did a podcast on

50:00you know it's funny we did a podcast on you know it's funny we did a podcast on this somewhat recently where um I went this somewhat recently where um I went this somewhat recently where um I went through this particular question which through this particular question which through this particular question which is will GLP1 receptor agonist ultimately is will GLP1 receptor agonist ultimately is will GLP1 receptor agonist ultimately prove to be girotective prove to be girotective prove to be girotective and I define I came up with a very and I define I came up with a very and I define I came up with a very obscure way to define that which is obscure way to define that which is obscure way to define that which is independent of weight loss independent of weight loss independent of weight loss >> yeah Right? Because obviously at the >> yeah Right? Because obviously at the >> yeah Right? Because obviously at the macro level they're going to be macro level they're going to be macro level they're going to be gerrotective because if you apply them gerrotective because if you apply them gerrotective because if you apply them to people with type two diabetes and to people with type two diabetes and to people with type two diabetes and significant obesity and you correct the significant obesity and you correct the significant obesity and you correct the metabolic dysfunction you're going to metabolic dysfunction you're going to metabolic dysfunction you're going to live longer. So by that regard it's a live longer. So by that regard it's a live longer. So by that regard it's a geroprotective agent. But the real geroprotective agent. But the real geroprotective agent. But the real question is if you take a person who is question is if you take a person who is question is if you take a person who is of normal weight who does not have type of normal weight who does not have type of normal weight who does not have type two diabetes but maybe has a higher risk two diabetes but maybe has a higher risk two diabetes but maybe has a higher risk for Alzheimer's disease and you micro for Alzheimer's disease and you micro for Alzheimer's disease and you micro dose them. So you're giving them 2.5 dose them. So you're giving them 2.5 dose them. So you're giving them 2.5 milligrams per day, which by the way we milligrams per day, which by the way we milligrams per day, which by the way we are doing in some patients for metabolic are doing in some patients for metabolic are doing in some patients for metabolic for obscure metabolic condition without for obscure metabolic condition without for obscure metabolic condition without obesity, right? So we have patients who obesity, right? So we have patients who obesity, right? So we have patients who have um um who have diabetes but are have um um who have diabetes but are have um um who have diabetes but are already at very low body weight. We have

51:00already at very low body weight. We have already at very low body weight. We have two patients actually in our practice in two patients actually in our practice in two patients actually in our practice in this in this regard. And after lots of this in this regard. And after lots of this in this regard. And after lots of detailed back and forth machination with detailed back and forth machination with detailed back and forth machination with uh Ralph Defransza who's a previous uh Ralph Defransza who's a previous uh Ralph Defransza who's a previous guest on the podcast, you know, we sort guest on the podcast, you know, we sort guest on the podcast, you know, we sort of realized that the at least one of realized that the at least one of realized that the at least one component of the drug regimen for these component of the drug regimen for these component of the drug regimen for these patients was going to be a GLP-1 patients was going to be a GLP-1 patients was going to be a GLP-1 agonist. Now, it seemed very agonist. Now, it seemed very agonist. Now, it seemed very counterintuitive to give trapide to counterintuitive to give trapide to counterintuitive to give trapide to people who have a BMI of 23. Um people who have a BMI of 23. Um people who have a BMI of 23. Um but we've been able to do it without but we've been able to do it without but we've been able to do it without them losing weight. Um, so again, very them losing weight. Um, so again, very them losing weight. Um, so again, very careful strategies around nutrition and careful strategies around nutrition and careful strategies around nutrition and the effect on their diabetes is the effect on their diabetes is the effect on their diabetes is profound. profound. profound. >> So they're they're looking more >> So they're they're looking more >> So they're they're looking more metabolically healthy. metabolically healthy. metabolically healthy. >> Oh my god. Totally. I mean, these are >> Oh my god. Totally. I mean, these are >> Oh my god. Totally. I mean, these are these are these are these are really these are these are these are really these are these are these are really interesting cases that, you know, maybe interesting cases that, you know, maybe interesting cases that, you know, maybe at some point obviously in a at some point obviously in a at some point obviously in a deidentified way, it would be deidentified way, it would be deidentified way, it would be interesting to talk about where you you interesting to talk about where you you interesting to talk about where you you know, you have O GTTs that are know, you have O GTTs that are know, you have O GTTs that are unrecognizable. Like you simply cannot unrecognizable. Like you simply cannot unrecognizable. Like you simply cannot believe the degree of metabolic believe the degree of metabolic believe the degree of metabolic dysfunction in a person who otherwise dysfunction in a person who otherwise dysfunction in a person who otherwise looks the way they look. And in one case looks the way they look. And in one case looks the way they look. And in one case in particular, it was so confusing that in particular, it was so confusing that in particular, it was so confusing that even after all the genetic testing we

52:00even after all the genetic testing we even after all the genetic testing we did, like we simply couldn't figure out did, like we simply couldn't figure out did, like we simply couldn't figure out an answer for this. We couldn't an answer for this. We couldn't an answer for this. We couldn't understand where the beta cell fatigue understand where the beta cell fatigue understand where the beta cell fatigue was coming from, absent a formal was coming from, absent a formal was coming from, absent a formal diagnosis of type 1 diabetes. Um, and diagnosis of type 1 diabetes. Um, and diagnosis of type 1 diabetes. Um, and within 3 months of being on 2.5 milligs within 3 months of being on 2.5 milligs within 3 months of being on 2.5 milligs of trappite, this individual's O GTT had of trappite, this individual's O GTT had of trappite, this individual's O GTT had almost normalized and I suspect uh by almost normalized and I suspect uh by almost normalized and I suspect uh by about 6 months it will. about 6 months it will. about 6 months it will. >> That's fascinating. and and we've >> That's fascinating. and and we've >> That's fascinating. and and we've managed to do this without any weight managed to do this without any weight managed to do this without any weight loss. So, this to me is the interesting loss. So, this to me is the interesting loss. So, this to me is the interesting question, right? which is when you look question, right? which is when you look question, right? which is when you look at some of the Alzheimer's biomarkers um at some of the Alzheimer's biomarkers um at some of the Alzheimer's biomarkers um which are improving improving which are improving improving which are improving improving significantly um it begs the question significantly um it begs the question significantly um it begs the question should this be part of the playbook for should this be part of the playbook for should this be part of the playbook for an individual who's at high risk an individual who's at high risk an individual who's at high risk especially given that we now I think especially given that we now I think especially given that we now I think really understand how to make sure really understand how to make sure really understand how to make sure people don't lose weight and don't lose people don't lose weight and don't lose people don't lose weight and don't lose lean mass and therefore I suspect don't lean mass and therefore I suspect don't lean mass and therefore I suspect don't lose bone density and all these other lose bone density and all these other lose bone density and all these other things that matter things that matter things that matter >> or like you said you know if you're >> or like you said you know if you're >> or like you said you know if you're doing if you're doing like this micro doing if you're doing like this micro doing if you're doing like this micro dose like maybe you're you're not going dose like maybe you're you're not going dose like maybe you're you're not going to be as satiated like you you'll still

53:00to be as satiated like you you'll still to be as satiated like you you'll still have somewhat of an appetite because have somewhat of an appetite because have somewhat of an appetite because you're on such a low dose. Maybe you're you're on such a low dose. Maybe you're you're on such a low dose. Maybe you're going to do have a little bit of an going to do have a little bit of an going to do have a little bit of an >> We've also seen some other weird things >> We've also seen some other weird things >> We've also seen some other weird things anecdotally. Um patients have told us anecdotally. Um patients have told us anecdotally. Um patients have told us that when they inject in the abdomen, so that when they inject in the abdomen, so that when they inject in the abdomen, so when you inject in, you know, the fat when you inject in, you know, the fat when you inject in, you know, the fat the subq fat of the abdomen, the the the subq fat of the abdomen, the the the subq fat of the abdomen, the the anti- uh basically the anorexic effects anti- uh basically the anorexic effects anti- uh basically the anorexic effects are greater than if you inject in the are greater than if you inject in the are greater than if you inject in the leg or butt. Hm. leg or butt. Hm. leg or butt. Hm. >> And we looked into this and there was >> And we looked into this and there was >> And we looked into this and there was some some mechanistic data to suggest some some mechanistic data to suggest some some mechanistic data to suggest that maybe you're getting more veagal that maybe you're getting more veagal that maybe you're getting more veagal tone when you inject in the abdomen. tone when you inject in the abdomen. tone when you inject in the abdomen. Again, I I don't I just don't know if Again, I I don't I just don't know if Again, I I don't I just don't know if any of these things are correct. They any of these things are correct. They any of these things are correct. They would need to be studied. But again, would need to be studied. But again, would need to be studied. But again, that would be a very important piece of that would be a very important piece of that would be a very important piece of data, right? If there's a way that if data, right? If there's a way that if data, right? If there's a way that if there's a location you can inject this there's a location you can inject this there's a location you can inject this where you minimize the anorexic effect where you minimize the anorexic effect where you minimize the anorexic effect of the drug, again, for some people that of the drug, again, for some people that of the drug, again, for some people that would be a feature, not a bug. For some would be a feature, not a bug. For some would be a feature, not a bug. For some people that would be a bug as opposed to people that would be a bug as opposed to people that would be a bug as opposed to a feature. So, you got to you have to a feature. So, you got to you have to a feature. So, you got to you have to understand how to how to how to use how understand how to how to how to use how understand how to how to how to use how to use the tool. Yeah. Um, to use the tool. Yeah. Um, to use the tool. Yeah. Um, and this just reminded me of something and this just reminded me of something and this just reminded me of something that we should have pointed out like that we should have pointed out like that we should have pointed out like talking about the protein requirements,

54:00talking about the protein requirements, talking about the protein requirements, grams per kilogram body weight. I do grams per kilogram body weight. I do grams per kilogram body weight. I do think it's important like cuz we're think it's important like cuz we're think it's important like cuz we're talking about we were just talking about talking about we were just talking about talking about we were just talking about obese people. obese people. obese people. >> This is I'm glad you brought this up >> This is I'm glad you brought this up >> This is I'm glad you brought this up >> and we're Yeah, exactly. where it's >> and we're Yeah, exactly. where it's >> and we're Yeah, exactly. where it's like, you know, most people aren't going like, you know, most people aren't going like, you know, most people aren't going to do a DEXA scan to see what their lean to do a DEXA scan to see what their lean to do a DEXA scan to see what their lean body mass is, but like ultimately I body mass is, but like ultimately I body mass is, but like ultimately I think, you know, and I've talked to a think, you know, and I've talked to a think, you know, and I've talked to a variety of experts, Brad Shenfield, Sue variety of experts, Brad Shenfield, Sue variety of experts, Brad Shenfield, Sue Phillips, they agree that really if Phillips, they agree that really if Phillips, they agree that really if you're someone that's overweight or you're someone that's overweight or you're someone that's overweight or obese, you shouldn't be calculating it obese, you shouldn't be calculating it obese, you shouldn't be calculating it based on your actual weight because your based on your actual weight because your based on your actual weight because your protein require it'll be way too high. protein require it'll be way too high. protein require it'll be way too high. It's more like your target weight, It's more like your target weight, It's more like your target weight, right? Or that would be I mean, if you right? Or that would be I mean, if you right? Or that would be I mean, if you empirically could measure your lean body empirically could measure your lean body empirically could measure your lean body mass, that would be better. But um yeah, mass, that would be better. But um yeah, mass, that would be better. But um yeah, I just wanted to point that out. I just wanted to point that out. I just wanted to point that out. >> Yep. And and I'm glad you did. So that's >> Yep. And and I'm glad you did. So that's >> Yep. And and I'm glad you did. So that's right for most people probably not much right for most people probably not much right for most people probably not much of an issue, but if you're if you're at of an issue, but if you're if you're at of an issue, but if you're if you're at 300 lb right now and your ideal body 300 lb right now and your ideal body 300 lb right now and your ideal body weight is 220. weight is 220. weight is 220. Um, and again, I don't you don't need a Um, and again, I don't you don't need a Um, and again, I don't you don't need a DEXA to figure that out. A DEXA can DEXA to figure that out. A DEXA can DEXA to figure that out. A DEXA can help, but most people who are 300 lb help, but most people who are 300 lb help, but most people who are 300 lb remember, you know, gosh, you know, at remember, you know, gosh, you know, at remember, you know, gosh, you know, at the end of high school I was 220. That the end of high school I was 220. That

55:00the end of high school I was 220. That was my good weight. Or maybe, you know, was my good weight. Or maybe, you know, was my good weight. Or maybe, you know, at the end of high school I was 200 lb, at the end of high school I was 200 lb, at the end of high school I was 200 lb, which is I'll probably never get back which is I'll probably never get back which is I'll probably never get back into those jeans again. But, you know, into those jeans again. But, you know, into those jeans again. But, you know, by the end of my freshman year of by the end of my freshman year of by the end of my freshman year of college, I was 220. That was kind of a college, I was 220. That was kind of a college, I was 220. That was kind of a good weight for me. And then it's just good weight for me. And then it's just good weight for me. And then it's just kind of gone downhill from there. You kind of gone downhill from there. You kind of gone downhill from there. You know, I had this orthopedic inj There's know, I had this orthopedic inj There's know, I had this orthopedic inj There's the story of how you got to be 300 lb. the story of how you got to be 300 lb. the story of how you got to be 300 lb. >> Yeah. Most people can figure out 220 is >> Yeah. Most people can figure out 220 is >> Yeah. Most people can figure out 220 is probably my goal weight and that's what probably my goal weight and that's what probably my goal weight and that's what I should be targeting. I should be targeting. I should be targeting. >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, so should we get >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, so should we get >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, so should we get back into like where so you made a great back into like where so you made a great back into like where so you made a great point, right? Which is how do we point, right? Which is how do we point, right? Which is how do we reconcile the following? reconcile the following? reconcile the following? So caloric restriction as an So caloric restriction as an So caloric restriction as an intervention uh as a girotective intervention uh as a girotective intervention uh as a girotective intervention is the oldest one in the intervention is the oldest one in the intervention is the oldest one in the book. I I'm not really aware of an book. I I'm not really aware of an book. I I'm not really aware of an intervention where uh a non-getic intervention where uh a non-getic intervention where uh a non-getic intervention that has from from a longer intervention that has from from a longer intervention that has from from a longer standing perspective produced a more standing perspective produced a more standing perspective produced a more consistent outcome in terms of consistent outcome in terms of consistent outcome in terms of laboratory animals where you restrict laboratory animals where you restrict laboratory animals where you restrict them of calories and they're going to them of calories and they're going to them of calories and they're going to live longer. So again to my knowledge live longer. So again to my knowledge live longer. So again to my knowledge there are only two interventions that

56:00there are only two interventions that there are only two interventions that have extended life across all four have extended life across all four have extended life across all four models of organisms from yeast, worms, models of organisms from yeast, worms, models of organisms from yeast, worms, flies and uh uh uh mammals, rodents and flies and uh uh uh mammals, rodents and flies and uh uh uh mammals, rodents and that is caloric restriction and rapamy that is caloric restriction and rapamy that is caloric restriction and rapamy and they have something in common which and they have something in common which and they have something in common which is they both result in the down is they both result in the down is they both result in the down reggulation of mTor. reggulation of mTor. reggulation of mTor. >> Right. So we also know that an amino >> Right. So we also know that an amino >> Right. So we also know that an amino acid you just mentioned a moment ago acid you just mentioned a moment ago acid you just mentioned a moment ago called leucine is the single most called leucine is the single most called leucine is the single most important of all the amino acids at important of all the amino acids at important of all the amino acids at turning up mTor. So how can we reconcile turning up mTor. So how can we reconcile turning up mTor. So how can we reconcile the idea that protein seems to be good the idea that protein seems to be good the idea that protein seems to be good for you but mtor going down seems to be for you but mtor going down seems to be for you but mtor going down seems to be good for you at least in another way. good for you at least in another way. good for you at least in another way. Well, for one, this is Well, for one, this is Well, for one, this is >> I'm being very facitious because, you >> I'm being very facitious because, you >> I'm being very facitious because, you know, I know the answer to this question know, I know the answer to this question know, I know the answer to this question >> and it's like, oh gosh, where do we >> and it's like, oh gosh, where do we >> and it's like, oh gosh, where do we start? I mean, you know, because let's start? I mean, you know, because let's start? I mean, you know, because let's ignore the worm and the fly and all that

57:00ignore the worm and the fly and all that ignore the worm and the fly and all that because who cares? I mean, even the because who cares? I mean, even the because who cares? I mean, even the rodents is like we're we're getting to rodents is like we're we're getting to rodents is like we're we're getting to like it's a stretch, right? But like it's a stretch, right? But like it's a stretch, right? But obviously, you know what else turns on obviously, you know what else turns on obviously, you know what else turns on mTor? Exercise. mTor? Exercise. mTor? Exercise. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Physical activity, mechanical force >> Physical activity, mechanical force >> Physical activity, mechanical force turns it on in our muscle. And we know turns it on in our muscle. And we know turns it on in our muscle. And we know exercise is like one of the best things exercise is like one of the best things exercise is like one of the best things that we can do for our health. Um I that we can do for our health. Um I that we can do for our health. Um I think here I think simp for simplicity think here I think simp for simplicity think here I think simp for simplicity the best way to think about this is that the best way to think about this is that the best way to think about this is that you want mTor active in your skeletal you want mTor active in your skeletal you want mTor active in your skeletal muscle. You want it active in your muscle. You want it active in your muscle. You want it active in your skeletal muscle. You don't necessarily skeletal muscle. You don't necessarily skeletal muscle. You don't necessarily always want it active systemically. always want it active systemically. always want it active systemically. But if you are exercising if you're But if you are exercising if you're But if you are exercising if you're moving around and you're taking your moving around and you're taking your moving around and you're taking your protein it's going to your muscle. We protein it's going to your muscle. We protein it's going to your muscle. We know that for a fact. I just I talked know that for a fact. I just I talked know that for a fact. I just I talked about anabolic resistance and how about anabolic resistance and how about anabolic resistance and how exercise can counter that. Well, it's exercise can counter that. Well, it's exercise can counter that. Well, it's increasing the leucine transporter, the increasing the leucine transporter, the increasing the leucine transporter, the expression of leucine transporter. It's expression of leucine transporter. It's expression of leucine transporter. It's causing leucine and other branch chain causing leucine and other branch chain causing leucine and other branch chain amino acids to go up into skeletal amino acids to go up into skeletal amino acids to go up into skeletal muscle. Multiple human studies have muscle. Multiple human studies have muscle. Multiple human studies have shown this. These are, you know, tracer

58:00shown this. These are, you know, tracer shown this. These are, you know, tracer studies, beautiful data, no argument. studies, beautiful data, no argument. studies, beautiful data, no argument. Exercise causes Exercise causes Exercise causes leucine and other branch chain amino leucine and other branch chain amino leucine and other branch chain amino acids to be taken up into skeletal acids to be taken up into skeletal acids to be taken up into skeletal muscle where you want it to be so that muscle where you want it to be so that muscle where you want it to be so that it activates mTor increases muscle it activates mTor increases muscle it activates mTor increases muscle protein synthesis. protein synthesis. protein synthesis. when it comes to when it comes to when it comes to deactivating mTor whether that's through deactivating mTor whether that's through deactivating mTor whether that's through protein restriction or rapamyosin I mean protein restriction or rapamyosin I mean protein restriction or rapamyosin I mean that would be like an hours long podcast that would be like an hours long podcast that would be like an hours long podcast talking about all the nuance data there talking about all the nuance data there talking about all the nuance data there because there's all sorts of differences because there's all sorts of differences because there's all sorts of differences with the you know sex differences in in with the you know sex differences in in with the you know sex differences in in the rodents everything you you you're the rodents everything you you you're the rodents everything you you you're aware of all this data my biggest thing aware of all this data my biggest thing aware of all this data my biggest thing here with the protein restriction let's here with the protein restriction let's here with the protein restriction let's talk about one talk about one talk about one I I did spent six years in grad school I I did spent six years in grad school I I did spent six years in grad school working with mice. I did a lot of animal working with mice. I did a lot of animal working with mice. I did a lot of animal studies. Okay, these mice are in a small studies. Okay, these mice are in a small studies. Okay, these mice are in a small cage. They are not physically active. cage. They are not physically active. cage. They are not physically active. They're not running around. They're I They're not running around. They're I They're not running around. They're I mean they move a little bit, but they're mean they move a little bit, but they're mean they move a little bit, but they're ultimately ultimately ultimately >> they're not under threat. >> they're not under threat. >> they're not under threat. >> They're not under threat. They're being >> They're not under threat. They're being >> They're not under threat. They're being fed. They're adlib. They're just being

59:00fed. They're adlib. They're just being fed. They're adlib. They're just being fed, you know, as much protein as they fed, you know, as much protein as they fed, you know, as much protein as they want, but want, but want, but >> perfectly thermorereulated >> perfectly thermorereulated >> perfectly thermorereulated >> totally. No, they're not being exposed >> totally. No, they're not being exposed >> totally. No, they're not being exposed to influenza or COVID or the, you know, to influenza or COVID or the, you know, to influenza or COVID or the, you know, whatever viruses, anything that's going whatever viruses, anything that's going whatever viruses, anything that's going to take them out for a period of a to take them out for a period of a to take them out for a period of a couple of weeks. Um, they're in a couple of weeks. Um, they're in a couple of weeks. Um, they're in a sterile environment. And so, I mean, sterile environment. And so, I mean, sterile environment. And so, I mean, they're happy. They're happy and that they're happy. They're happy and that they're happy. They're happy and that that's it, right? People are not mice, that's it, right? People are not mice, that's it, right? People are not mice, right? We, like we talked about earlier, right? We, like we talked about earlier, right? We, like we talked about earlier, um, as we get older, we're being exposed um, as we get older, we're being exposed um, as we get older, we're being exposed to infectious diseases. things are going to infectious diseases. things are going to infectious diseases. things are going to make us immobile for a period of to make us immobile for a period of to make us immobile for a period of weeks and that is devastating to us weeks and that is devastating to us weeks and that is devastating to us especially when you add them up and they especially when you add them up and they especially when you add them up and they happen this year and then the next year happen this year and then the next year happen this year and then the next year it happens again and then you're just it happens again and then you're just it happens again and then you're just losing that muscle mass right and then losing that muscle mass right and then losing that muscle mass right and then you reach that disability threshold you you reach that disability threshold you you reach that disability threshold you talked about Luke Vanlon um talking talked about Luke Vanlon um talking talked about Luke Vanlon um talking about those curves it's very clear I about those curves it's very clear I about those curves it's very clear I mean you can see the data where there's mean you can see the data where there's mean you can see the data where there's a disability threshold you get enough of a disability threshold you get enough of a disability threshold you get enough of these like catabolic crisis events right these like catabolic crisis events right these like catabolic crisis events right where you're just immobile for a certain where you're just immobile for a certain where you're just immobile for a certain period of time because you've had a period of time because you've had a period of time because you've had a surgery or you've had the flu or

1:00surgery or you've had the flu or surgery or you've had the flu or whatever kept you inactive. Um, that whatever kept you inactive. Um, that whatever kept you inactive. Um, that doesn't happen to these mice, right? So, doesn't happen to these mice, right? So, doesn't happen to these mice, right? So, protein is much more important to humans protein is much more important to humans protein is much more important to humans because we of course need that muscle because we of course need that muscle because we of course need that muscle mass and we need to bank it early. We've mass and we need to bank it early. We've mass and we need to bank it early. We've established that. And I think that's a established that. And I think that's a established that. And I think that's a really important difference here is really important difference here is really important difference here is that, you know, we can't just look at that, you know, we can't just look at that, you know, we can't just look at the data in mice and go, "Oh, you can the data in mice and go, "Oh, you can the data in mice and go, "Oh, you can restrict them from protein and they live restrict them from protein and they live restrict them from protein and they live longer and they're fine." Well, they're longer and they're fine." Well, they're longer and they're fine." Well, they're not going through these catabolic not going through these catabolic not going through these catabolic crisises. they're not going through crisises. they're not going through crisises. they're not going through these, you know, points of, you know, these, you know, points of, you know, these, you know, points of, you know, not moving for a period of time for not moving for a period of time for not moving for a period of time for like, you know, and losing all this like, you know, and losing all this like, you know, and losing all this muscle mass and then that happening and muscle mass and then that happening and muscle mass and then that happening and they reach reach this disability they reach reach this disability they reach reach this disability threshold and then, you know, it's very threshold and then, you know, it's very threshold and then, you know, it's very different. Um, so I think that's first different. Um, so I think that's first different. Um, so I think that's first and foremost important to point out. Um, and foremost important to point out. Um, and foremost important to point out. Um, the second thing is is that if we're the second thing is is that if we're the second thing is is that if we're talking about protein intake, I think talking about protein intake, I think talking about protein intake, I think that you and I agree the optimal that you and I agree the optimal that you and I agree the optimal scenario here isn't a sedentary person scenario here isn't a sedentary person scenario here isn't a sedentary person just sitting there eating as much just sitting there eating as much just sitting there eating as much protein as they want. No, they need to protein as they want. No, they need to protein as they want. No, they need to be moving physically active. Like that's

1:01be moving physically active. Like that's be moving physically active. Like that's the whole point. You you're supporting the whole point. You you're supporting the whole point. You you're supporting your physical activity by increasing your physical activity by increasing your physical activity by increasing your protein intake. And so in that your protein intake. And so in that your protein intake. And so in that scenario, again, the the amino acids scenario, again, the the amino acids scenario, again, the the amino acids that are activating mTor are going to that are activating mTor are going to that are activating mTor are going to skeletal muscle. Like that's been shown skeletal muscle. Like that's been shown skeletal muscle. Like that's been shown leucine is going into skeletal muscle. leucine is going into skeletal muscle. leucine is going into skeletal muscle. So who cares if you're taking in more So who cares if you're taking in more So who cares if you're taking in more >> Yeah. In fact, I I I think that's such >> Yeah. In fact, I I I think that's such >> Yeah. In fact, I I I think that's such an important point, Rhonda, that I would an important point, Rhonda, that I would an important point, Rhonda, that I would even go one step further, which is if even go one step further, which is if even go one step further, which is if you told me come up with the optimal you told me come up with the optimal you told me come up with the optimal nutrition strategy for the individual nutrition strategy for the individual nutrition strategy for the individual who is active and then come up with the who is active and then come up with the who is active and then come up with the optimal nutrition strategy for a person optimal nutrition strategy for a person optimal nutrition strategy for a person who is going to be sedentary, they would who is going to be sedentary, they would who is going to be sedentary, they would be very different. be very different. be very different. I'm going to try to talk that sedentary I'm going to try to talk that sedentary I'm going to try to talk that sedentary person into not being sedentary. But if person into not being sedentary. But if person into not being sedentary. But if at the end of the day, I can't. If that at the end of the day, I can't. If that at the end of the day, I can't. If that individual says, "I just I don't want to individual says, "I just I don't want to individual says, "I just I don't want to do anything. I just want to sit in front do anything. I just want to sit in front do anything. I just want to sit in front of my computer." Um, you know what? It of my computer." Um, you know what? It of my computer." Um, you know what? It probably makes sense to be a little bit probably makes sense to be a little bit probably makes sense to be a little bit caloric restricted, caloric restricted, caloric restricted, >> right? >> right? >> Because at least I want to make sure I >> Because at least I want to make sure I >> Because at least I want to make sure I can't solve your metabolic um challenge

1:02can't solve your metabolic um challenge can't solve your metabolic um challenge through activity, but what if I could at through activity, but what if I could at through activity, but what if I could at least solve it through uh nutrition least solve it through uh nutrition least solve it through uh nutrition restriction? Um restriction? Um restriction? Um and and I again I think it's the and and I again I think it's the and and I again I think it's the inability of people to understand that inability of people to understand that inability of people to understand that that those are very different states that those are very different states that those are very different states right you cannot treat those two people right you cannot treat those two people right you cannot treat those two people the same way the same way the same way >> right and it's really it's it's there's >> right and it's really it's it's there's >> right and it's really it's it's there's even there was a study by um Valter even there was a study by um Valter even there was a study by um Valter Longo of all people like years ago came Longo of all people like years ago came Longo of all people like years ago came out was a large cohort study looking at out was a large cohort study looking at out was a large cohort study looking at dietary protein intake from vegetable dietary protein intake from vegetable dietary protein intake from vegetable versus meat sources right and we all versus meat sources right and we all versus meat sources right and we all know that meat sources have higher know that meat sources have higher know that meat sources have higher levels of essential amino acids like levels of essential amino acids like levels of essential amino acids like leucine and all cause mortality was leucine and all cause mortality was leucine and all cause mortality was looked at and you know the same you know looked at and you know the same you know looked at and you know the same you know statement that you've heard millions of statement that you've heard millions of statement that you've heard millions of times from other studies about okay if times from other studies about okay if times from other studies about okay if you you know vegans have a lower all you you know vegans have a lower all you you know vegans have a lower all cause mortality than meat eaters. Well, cause mortality than meat eaters. Well, cause mortality than meat eaters. Well, turns out when you actually start to turns out when you actually start to turns out when you actually start to analyze like the data and and correct analyze like the data and and correct analyze like the data and and correct for a lot of confounding factors, for a lot of confounding factors, for a lot of confounding factors, meateers that were that were physically

1:03meateers that were that were physically meateers that were that were physically active, were not obese or overweight, active, were not obese or overweight, active, were not obese or overweight, didn't smoke, didn't drink excessive didn't smoke, didn't drink excessive didn't smoke, didn't drink excessive alcohol. So, in other words, they didn't alcohol. So, in other words, they didn't alcohol. So, in other words, they didn't have all these unhealthy lifestyle have all these unhealthy lifestyle have all these unhealthy lifestyle factors, they had the same mortality factors, they had the same mortality factors, they had the same mortality rate as the the, you know, vegans. So, I rate as the the, you know, vegans. So, I rate as the the, you know, vegans. So, I think that also is a good is a good think that also is a good is a good think that also is a good is a good point here where it's like, okay, if point here where it's like, okay, if point here where it's like, okay, if you're going to be a sedentary person you're going to be a sedentary person you're going to be a sedentary person that's smoking and if you have unhealthy that's smoking and if you have unhealthy that's smoking and if you have unhealthy lifestyle factors, you know, maybe you lifestyle factors, you know, maybe you lifestyle factors, you know, maybe you don't need to be so obsessed. You don't need to be so obsessed. You don't need to be so obsessed. You definitely want to make sure you're at definitely want to make sure you're at definitely want to make sure you're at least getting the minimal amount of least getting the minimal amount of least getting the minimal amount of protein because you don't want to be in protein because you don't want to be in protein because you don't want to be in the deficit, but you know, you don't the deficit, but you know, you don't the deficit, but you know, you don't want to necessarily just be constantly want to necessarily just be constantly want to necessarily just be constantly activating mTor if you're just going to activating mTor if you're just going to activating mTor if you're just going to sit around and smoke and be overweight sit around and smoke and be overweight sit around and smoke and be overweight and not do anything with that protein, and not do anything with that protein, and not do anything with that protein, right? right? right? >> Yeah. And the other thing I think that >> Yeah. And the other thing I think that >> Yeah. And the other thing I think that that is is missing from this discussion that is is missing from this discussion that is is missing from this discussion is and and this is where I think is and and this is where I think is and and this is where I think inflammation serves as a great analogy. inflammation serves as a great analogy. inflammation serves as a great analogy. Right? So I think most people on the Right? So I think most people on the Right? So I think most people on the surface understand that a constant on surface understand that a constant on surface understand that a constant on state of the inflammatory system would state of the inflammatory system would state of the inflammatory system would be bad. But of course if you had no be bad. But of course if you had no be bad. But of course if you had no inflammatory response that would be also inflammatory response that would be also inflammatory response that would be also bad. So the ideal state is inflammation

1:04bad. So the ideal state is inflammation bad. So the ideal state is inflammation when you need it otherwise off. when you need it otherwise off. when you need it otherwise off. Inflammation when you need it otherwise Inflammation when you need it otherwise Inflammation when you need it otherwise off. And I think that's probably the off. And I think that's probably the off. And I think that's probably the right way to think about this, right? right way to think about this, right? right way to think about this, right? Which is we we want mTor on when it has Which is we we want mTor on when it has Which is we we want mTor on when it has a job to do and we want it relatively a job to do and we want it relatively a job to do and we want it relatively silent when we don't. And I think if silent when we don't. And I think if silent when we don't. And I think if rapamy is girotective rapamy is girotective rapamy is girotective and um when I say if I mean in humans, I and um when I say if I mean in humans, I and um when I say if I mean in humans, I think it's unambiguously protective think it's unambiguously protective think it's unambiguously protective across most species, but we still don't across most species, but we still don't across most species, but we still don't know if the species of interest is is is know if the species of interest is is is know if the species of interest is is is going to benefit from this drug. And we going to benefit from this drug. And we going to benefit from this drug. And we may never by the way, but it's probably may never by the way, but it's probably may never by the way, but it's probably working by tamping down the chronic working by tamping down the chronic working by tamping down the chronic inflammatory component of what we see inflammatory component of what we see inflammatory component of what we see with mTor activation, which by the way with mTor activation, which by the way with mTor activation, which by the way might actually involve inflammation as might actually involve inflammation as might actually involve inflammation as well as one of the many things. So that well as one of the many things. So that well as one of the many things. So that there's also this challenge of of trying there's also this challenge of of trying there's also this challenge of of trying to to to get folks to understand the to to to get folks to understand the to to to get folks to understand the difference between chronic and acute difference between chronic and acute difference between chronic and acute things. Um again, cortisol, right? Great things. Um again, cortisol, right? Great things. Um again, cortisol, right? Great example, right? So cortisol vital example, right? So cortisol vital example, right? So cortisol vital hormone hormone hormone puls you know the the appropriate rhythm

1:05puls you know the the appropriate rhythm puls you know the the appropriate rhythm of cortisol is essential for life if you of cortisol is essential for life if you of cortisol is essential for life if you took that away you would actually be took that away you would actually be took that away you would actually be dead that's called Edison's disease but dead that's called Edison's disease but dead that's called Edison's disease but cortisol constantly being on would also cortisol constantly being on would also cortisol constantly being on would also be a problem right that would be be a problem right that would be be a problem right that would be Cushing's disease so both extremes bad Cushing's disease so both extremes bad Cushing's disease so both extremes bad it's do you do you know when you need it it's do you do you know when you need it it's do you do you know when you need it and what it's supposed to do and I think and what it's supposed to do and I think and what it's supposed to do and I think the same is true with mTor the same is true with mTor the same is true with mTor >> I'd also like to see data comparing like >> I'd also like to see data comparing like >> I'd also like to see data comparing like even even if it's animal data even even if it's animal data even even if it's animal data um comparing like giving giving um comparing like giving giving um comparing like giving giving rapomyosin or inhibiting or you know rapomyosin or inhibiting or you know rapomyosin or inhibiting or you know somewhat inhibiting mTor versus like somewhat inhibiting mTor versus like somewhat inhibiting mTor versus like physical activity like like in these physical activity like like in these physical activity like like in these like making them making them run on a like making them making them run on a like making them making them run on a treadmill like being physically active treadmill like being physically active treadmill like being physically active because if you look at like a lot of the because if you look at like a lot of the because if you look at like a lot of the protective effects of rapammy I'm like protective effects of rapammy I'm like protective effects of rapammy I'm like this is what exercise does and exercise this is what exercise does and exercise this is what exercise does and exercise does it better so does it better so does it better so >> I'm just not convinced that someone who >> I'm just not convinced that someone who >> I'm just not convinced that someone who is who's already bought into like how is who's already bought into like how is who's already bought into like how important exercise is both important exercise is both important exercise is both cardiovascular and weight training. cardiovascular and weight training. cardiovascular and weight training. >> Well, Eric Verden made a very >> Well, Eric Verden made a very >> Well, Eric Verden made a very interesting podcast, a very interesting

1:06interesting podcast, a very interesting interesting podcast, a very interesting comment on my podcast a while ago and comment on my podcast a while ago and comment on my podcast a while ago and and so Eric is in the camp that he does and so Eric is in the camp that he does and so Eric is in the camp that he does not believe RAPA will be geroprotective not believe RAPA will be geroprotective not believe RAPA will be geroprotective in humans and he talked about the in humans and he talked about the in humans and he talked about the longevity quotient. So for listeners, longevity quotient. So for listeners, longevity quotient. So for listeners, the longevity quotient is a plot, a very the longevity quotient is a plot, a very the longevity quotient is a plot, a very famous plot that on the x-axis uh puts famous plot that on the x-axis uh puts famous plot that on the x-axis uh puts body size and on the y-axis puts body size and on the y-axis puts body size and on the y-axis puts lifespan. And you just plot all the lifespan. And you just plot all the lifespan. And you just plot all the organisms on this thing. And as a organisms on this thing. And as a organisms on this thing. And as a general rule, it rises up and to the general rule, it rises up and to the general rule, it rises up and to the right. The larger an animal is, the right. The larger an animal is, the right. The larger an animal is, the longer it lives. And it's a pretty longer it lives. And it's a pretty longer it lives. And it's a pretty straight line. In fact, we should find a straight line. In fact, we should find a straight line. In fact, we should find a good uh example of it and link to it in good uh example of it and link to it in good uh example of it and link to it in the show notes. But there are always the show notes. But there are always the show notes. But there are always animals that punch above and below their animals that punch above and below their animals that punch above and below their weight. So there are animals that fall weight. So there are animals that fall weight. So there are animals that fall off that line either too high. So these off that line either too high. So these off that line either too high. So these are animals that live much longer than are animals that live much longer than are animals that live much longer than you would expect based on their body you would expect based on their body you would expect based on their body size and there are animals that punch size and there are animals that punch size and there are animals that punch well below their body weight. They live well below their body weight. They live well below their body weight. They live much shorter than they should based on much shorter than they should based on much shorter than they should based on their body weight. Well, it turns out their body weight. Well, it turns out their body weight. Well, it turns out two interesting examples are mice and two interesting examples are mice and two interesting examples are mice and humans. Mice live on average 2 years. I humans. Mice live on average 2 years. I humans. Mice live on average 2 years. I forget the exact number. They should be

1:07forget the exact number. They should be forget the exact number. They should be living close to four or five years I living close to four or five years I living close to four or five years I think based on the longevity quotient think based on the longevity quotient think based on the longevity quotient line. So they are punching well below line. So they are punching well below line. So they are punching well below their weight. And humans, we live 80 their weight. And humans, we live 80 their weight. And humans, we live 80 years. We should probably be 40 years. We should probably be 40 years. We should probably be 40 according to the data. By the way, we according to the data. By the way, we according to the data. By the way, we did live 40 years until modern medicine did live 40 years until modern medicine did live 40 years until modern medicine came along. So maybe we were totally on came along. So maybe we were totally on came along. So maybe we were totally on the curve correctly until medicine 2.0 the curve correctly until medicine 2.0 the curve correctly until medicine 2.0 came around at the turn of the last came around at the turn of the last came around at the turn of the last century and basically over five century and basically over five century and basically over five generations doubled our lifespan. Um generations doubled our lifespan. Um generations doubled our lifespan. Um Eric argues um and I I think this is a Eric argues um and I I think this is a Eric argues um and I I think this is a very interesting argument. Rapamy very interesting argument. Rapamy very interesting argument. Rapamy disproportionately works well in animals disproportionately works well in animals disproportionately works well in animals that are below the longevity quotient. that are below the longevity quotient. that are below the longevity quotient. So that's why it works so reproducibly So that's why it works so reproducibly So that's why it works so reproducibly in mice, right? But he argues it might in mice, right? But he argues it might in mice, right? But he argues it might not have any effect in humans because not have any effect in humans because not have any effect in humans because we're already we've already captured so we're already we've already captured so we're already we've already captured so much of our genetic potential in terms much of our genetic potential in terms much of our genetic potential in terms of lifespan now that the idea that RAPA of lifespan now that the idea that RAPA of lifespan now that the idea that RAPA would give us an extra 15% of life he he would give us an extra 15% of life he he would give us an extra 15% of life he he feels is just kind of hard to imagine. feels is just kind of hard to imagine. feels is just kind of hard to imagine. And again a theoretical argument it's

1:08And again a theoretical argument it's And again a theoretical argument it's super interesting but I'd never heard it super interesting but I'd never heard it super interesting but I'd never heard it in relation to the longevity quotient in relation to the longevity quotient in relation to the longevity quotient before. for and I I thought it was very before. for and I I thought it was very before. for and I I thought it was very uh very much worth pondering. uh very much worth pondering. uh very much worth pondering. >> Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I've >> Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I've >> Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I've also seen data with rapamyosin given to also seen data with rapamyosin given to also seen data with rapamyosin given to people that were undergoing resistance people that were undergoing resistance people that were undergoing resistance training and it like blunted obviously training and it like blunted obviously training and it like blunted obviously some of the muscle protein synthesis as some of the muscle protein synthesis as some of the muscle protein synthesis as would be expected. I don't remember the would be expected. I don't remember the would be expected. I don't remember the dose of mtor but wasn't like I'm sorry dose of mtor but wasn't like I'm sorry dose of mtor but wasn't like I'm sorry it wasn't super super high it wasn't super super high it wasn't super super high >> but to me that was like enough to be >> but to me that was like enough to be >> but to me that was like enough to be like well I mean like well I mean like well I mean >> yeah and then the question of course is >> yeah and then the question of course is >> yeah and then the question of course is could is there a way around that right? could is there a way around that right? could is there a way around that right? Is there a way where you could Is there a way where you could Is there a way where you could intermittently dose it? you just take it intermittently dose it? you just take it intermittently dose it? you just take it once, you time it so that it's not in once, you time it so that it's not in once, you time it so that it's not in proximity to a bout of resistance proximity to a bout of resistance proximity to a bout of resistance training by a couple of days or training by a couple of days or training by a couple of days or something like that. But yeah, there's a something like that. But yeah, there's a something like that. But yeah, there's a lot there. There's a great expression I lot there. There's a great expression I lot there. There's a great expression I heard um recently which is uh heard um recently which is uh heard um recently which is uh >> mice usually lie, monkeys sometimes lie, >> mice usually lie, monkeys sometimes lie, >> mice usually lie, monkeys sometimes lie, it's humans we care about. I thought it it's humans we care about. I thought it it's humans we care about. I thought it was just fantastic, right? was just fantastic, right? was just fantastic, right? >> Well, to get back to the mtor story, I >> Well, to get back to the mtor story, I >> Well, to get back to the mtor story, I think that's like that that recent think that's like that that recent think that's like that that recent study. I don't know, it was in the last study. I don't know, it was in the last study. I don't know, it was in the last couple of years it came out. It was the

1:09couple of years it came out. It was the couple of years it came out. It was the animal study where they gave mice 25 animal study where they gave mice 25 animal study where they gave mice 25 grams of protein and you know mTor was grams of protein and you know mTor was grams of protein and you know mTor was activated in macrofasages and it was activated in macrofasages and it was activated in macrofasages and it was like this this whole story was pieced like this this whole story was pieced like this this whole story was pieced together about together about together about >> 25 grams of protein. >> 25 grams of protein. >> 25 grams of protein. >> Sorry maybe it was the equivalent dose >> Sorry maybe it was the equivalent dose >> Sorry maybe it was the equivalent dose equivalent the human equivalent dose equivalent the human equivalent dose equivalent the human equivalent dose >> like wow that's the way they're eating >> like wow that's the way they're eating >> like wow that's the way they're eating their body weight and their body weight and their body weight and >> human equivalent a dose was 25 grams. >> human equivalent a dose was 25 grams. >> human equivalent a dose was 25 grams. Yeah. Um, but it it was essentially like Yeah. Um, but it it was essentially like Yeah. Um, but it it was essentially like arguing that atheroscerosis was being arguing that atheroscerosis was being arguing that atheroscerosis was being caused by protein. And I'm like, are you caused by protein. And I'm like, are you caused by protein. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, well, for for one, we kidding me? Like, well, for for one, we kidding me? Like, well, for for one, we know atheroscerosis, like the bigger know atheroscerosis, like the bigger know atheroscerosis, like the bigger story there, right? Is not protein. But story there, right? Is not protein. But story there, right? Is not protein. But again, it comes down to this whole again, it comes down to this whole again, it comes down to this whole activating mTor in like systemic activating mTor in like systemic activating mTor in like systemic circulation versus the lucine going to circulation versus the lucine going to circulation versus the lucine going to the muscle because you're physically the muscle because you're physically the muscle because you're physically active. And keep in mind like those active. And keep in mind like those active. And keep in mind like those transporters like the lucine transporters like the lucine transporters like the lucine transporters, they're pretty sensitive transporters, they're pretty sensitive transporters, they're pretty sensitive for quite a while. I mean, you're for quite a while. I mean, you're for quite a while. I mean, you're talking about at least 24 hours, right? talking about at least 24 hours, right? talking about at least 24 hours, right? Maybe even longer, but definitely

1:10Maybe even longer, but definitely Maybe even longer, but definitely >> I think the I think the mice >> I think the I think the mice >> I think the I think the mice aththerosclerosis studies are very aththerosclerosis studies are very aththerosclerosis studies are very dangerous. Um, dangerous. Um, dangerous. Um, it's it's we have to be very careful. it's it's we have to be very careful. it's it's we have to be very careful. They have a very different lipoprotein They have a very different lipoprotein They have a very different lipoprotein system than we do. Uh, they evolved in a system than we do. Uh, they evolved in a system than we do. Uh, they evolved in a totally different manner than we did. totally different manner than we did. totally different manner than we did. Their amount the amount of protein they Their amount the amount of protein they Their amount the amount of protein they require is totally different from us. require is totally different from us. require is totally different from us. So, I'm always I'm always really wary So, I'm always I'm always really wary So, I'm always I'm always really wary when I see these studies that are using when I see these studies that are using when I see these studies that are using the mouse model of atherosclerosis. Um I the mouse model of atherosclerosis. Um I the mouse model of atherosclerosis. Um I I think I understand why we do it I think I understand why we do it I think I understand why we do it because it's much easier and cheaper because it's much easier and cheaper because it's much easier and cheaper than looking at um at primates. Uh and than looking at um at primates. Uh and than looking at um at primates. Uh and obviously, you know, we can't do these obviously, you know, we can't do these obviously, you know, we can't do these studies in humans, but um you can find a studies in humans, but um you can find a studies in humans, but um you can find a lot of things in mice when it comes to lot of things in mice when it comes to lot of things in mice when it comes to atherosclerosis that don't seem to atherosclerosis that don't seem to atherosclerosis that don't seem to matter whatsoever in human biology. I matter whatsoever in human biology. I matter whatsoever in human biology. I would chalk this up to one of those would chalk this up to one of those would chalk this up to one of those examples. examples. examples. >> So then there you have it. I mean that's >> So then there you have it. I mean that's >> So then there you have it. I mean that's like a lot of the controversy around like a lot of the controversy around like a lot of the controversy around protein being bad for you and activating protein being bad for you and activating protein being bad for you and activating mTor is coming from that study. And then mTor is coming from that study. And then mTor is coming from that study. And then there's countless studies on cancer there's countless studies on cancer there's countless studies on cancer increasing with IGF-1 and mTor and again increasing with IGF-1 and mTor and again increasing with IGF-1 and mTor and again same deal where you know IGF-1 exercise

1:11same deal where you know IGF-1 exercise same deal where you know IGF-1 exercise is causing IGF-1 to go into the brain to is causing IGF-1 to go into the brain to is causing IGF-1 to go into the brain to go into muscle. So go into muscle. So go into muscle. So >> people also don't appreciate how short >> people also don't appreciate how short >> people also don't appreciate how short the halfife of IGF-1 is. Like it's a the halfife of IGF-1 is. Like it's a the halfife of IGF-1 is. Like it's a staggeringly short half-life molecule. staggeringly short half-life molecule. staggeringly short half-life molecule. >> Oh really? >> Oh really? >> Oh really? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's insanely short >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's insanely short >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's insanely short halfife. What's the halfife? halfife. What's the halfife? halfife. What's the halfife? >> Um, when administered systemically, it's >> Um, when administered systemically, it's >> Um, when administered systemically, it's on the order of minutes. on the order of minutes. on the order of minutes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And by the way, administering IGF >> Yeah. And by the way, administering IGF >> Yeah. And by the way, administering IGF systemically is a lousy way to get it to systemically is a lousy way to get it to systemically is a lousy way to get it to the muscle, right? Like it's you want to the muscle, right? Like it's you want to the muscle, right? Like it's you want to think of it almost as a paracrine thing, think of it almost as a paracrine thing, think of it almost as a paracrine thing, right? Where it has to be delivered into right? Where it has to be delivered into right? Where it has to be delivered into the muscle. Um, so the muscle. Um, so the muscle. Um, so yeah, look, all roads for me still point yeah, look, all roads for me still point yeah, look, all roads for me still point back to this idea that, and I know you back to this idea that, and I know you back to this idea that, and I know you would agree with me, so it's not going would agree with me, so it's not going would agree with me, so it's not going to be that controversial, but you know, to be that controversial, but you know, to be that controversial, but you know, exercise is the most important drug. I exercise is the most important drug. I exercise is the most important drug. I just don't I'm just not aware of a drug just don't I'm just not aware of a drug just don't I'm just not aware of a drug in quotes that is that is better than in quotes that is that is better than in quotes that is that is better than exercise. And I know there's this exercise. And I know there's this exercise. And I know there's this enormous effort to figure out a way to enormous effort to figure out a way to enormous effort to figure out a way to put exercise into a pill. I just can't put exercise into a pill. I just can't put exercise into a pill. I just can't imagine it'll ever happen. There might imagine it'll ever happen. There might imagine it'll ever happen. There might be there might be several pills that

1:12be there might be several pills that be there might be several pills that come out of it, right? We might figure come out of it, right? We might figure come out of it, right? We might figure out a way to make cloth. We might figure out a way to make cloth. We might figure out a way to make cloth. We might figure out a way to make BDNF. We might figure out a way to make BDNF. We might figure out a way to make BDNF. We might figure out a way to deliver IGF directly to out a way to deliver IGF directly to out a way to deliver IGF directly to muscles. Like there might be a whole muscles. Like there might be a whole muscles. Like there might be a whole bunch of little things 500 molecules. bunch of little things 500 molecules. bunch of little things 500 molecules. >> Yeah. This is the This is the remember >> Yeah. This is the This is the remember >> Yeah. This is the This is the remember remember I I don't know if you remember remember I I don't know if you remember remember I I don't know if you remember this. I'm dating myself, but I don't this. I'm dating myself, but I don't this. I'm dating myself, but I don't know if you remember I know if you remember I know if you remember I >> Yeah. Like I mean there are no shortage >> Yeah. Like I mean there are no shortage >> Yeah. Like I mean there are no shortage of these things, of these things, of these things, >> right? And and it's there's so many >> right? And and it's there's so many >> right? And and it's there's so many things going on for sure that is things going on for sure that is things going on for sure that is beneficial with exercise. Um, and just beneficial with exercise. Um, and just beneficial with exercise. Um, and just kind of bring it back to the protein, kind of bring it back to the protein, kind of bring it back to the protein, you know, I think that they go hand you know, I think that they go hand you know, I think that they go hand inand like we're talking about being inand like we're talking about being inand like we're talking about being optimal, increasing our health span, optimal, increasing our health span, optimal, increasing our health span, increasing our lifespan, having a good increasing our lifespan, having a good increasing our lifespan, having a good quality of life, then you're talking quality of life, then you're talking quality of life, then you're talking about having a higher protein intake to about having a higher protein intake to about having a higher protein intake to support your physical activity, period. support your physical activity, period. support your physical activity, period. And athletes, they're some of the And athletes, they're some of the And athletes, they're some of the longest lived individuals on the planet. longest lived individuals on the planet. longest lived individuals on the planet. And we talked about this in our last And we talked about this in our last And we talked about this in our last podcast. I mean, Olympic athletes live podcast. I mean, Olympic athletes live podcast. I mean, Olympic athletes live on average 5 years longer than the Gen on average 5 years longer than the Gen on average 5 years longer than the Gen population. Same goes with a lot of population. Same goes with a lot of population. Same goes with a lot of these athletes playing these indoor team these athletes playing these indoor team these athletes playing these indoor team sports. And there are several studies sports. And there are several studies sports. And there are several studies out there looking at elite athletes,

1:13out there looking at elite athletes, out there looking at elite athletes, including people in the NBA, um, Major including people in the NBA, um, Major including people in the NBA, um, Major League Baseball, all you know, a lot of League Baseball, all you know, a lot of League Baseball, all you know, a lot of these big um, professional sports these big um, professional sports these big um, professional sports leagues, they're taking in at least, you leagues, they're taking in at least, you leagues, they're taking in at least, you know, two grams per kilogram of protein know, two grams per kilogram of protein know, two grams per kilogram of protein per day. So clearly protein isn't per day. So clearly protein isn't per day. So clearly protein isn't killing them. In fact, they're living killing them. In fact, they're living killing them. In fact, they're living longer than the the general population. longer than the the general population. longer than the the general population. So again, it comes down to that So again, it comes down to that So again, it comes down to that >> supporting like exercise, exercise is >> supporting like exercise, exercise is >> supporting like exercise, exercise is the king, right? Exercise is like the the king, right? Exercise is like the the king, right? Exercise is like the most important thing, but you need and most important thing, but you need and most important thing, but you need and protein to support to support that protein to support to support that protein to support to support that physical activity and and so I don't physical activity and and so I don't physical activity and and so I don't understand why anyone's arguing about understand why anyone's arguing about understand why anyone's arguing about that. Like what's the argument? that. Like what's the argument? that. Like what's the argument? >> Yeah, I'm I'm despite all the despite >> Yeah, I'm I'm despite all the despite >> Yeah, I'm I'm despite all the despite all the flack I'm taking, um I'm going all the flack I'm taking, um I'm going all the flack I'm taking, um I'm going to just defend this one and continue. to just defend this one and continue. to just defend this one and continue. And and by the way, if new data emerge, And and by the way, if new data emerge, And and by the way, if new data emerge, I'm always happy to change my mind. I've I'm always happy to change my mind. I've I'm always happy to change my mind. I've changed my mind about so many things. It changed my mind about so many things. It changed my mind about so many things. It is absurd the number of things I've is absurd the number of things I've is absurd the number of things I've changed my mind on. I've changed my mind changed my mind on. I've changed my mind changed my mind on. I've changed my mind on GLP1s. I've changed my mind on on GLP1s. I've changed my mind on on GLP1s. I've changed my mind on saunas. I mean, I can count the list of saunas. I mean, I can count the list of saunas. I mean, I can count the list of things I've changed my mind on over the things I've changed my mind on over the things I've changed my mind on over the past 10 years. And if there are data past 10 years. And if there are data past 10 years. And if there are data that will make me change my mind, I will

1:14that will make me change my mind, I will that will make me change my mind, I will stand up here with a straight face and I stand up here with a straight face and I stand up here with a straight face and I will eat crow and I will tell you that will eat crow and I will tell you that will eat crow and I will tell you that I've changed my mind. But I'm going to I've changed my mind. But I'm going to I've changed my mind. But I'm going to stand by my recommendation. 2 g per stand by my recommendation. 2 g per stand by my recommendation. 2 g per kilogram per day. And my rationale kilogram per day. And my rationale kilogram per day. And my rationale again, I explained it earlier in the again, I explained it earlier in the again, I explained it earlier in the podcast, but just to restate it, if you podcast, but just to restate it, if you podcast, but just to restate it, if you aim for two on the day you fall short, aim for two on the day you fall short, aim for two on the day you fall short, you'll still be at 1.6. If you aim for you'll still be at 1.6. If you aim for you'll still be at 1.6. If you aim for 1.6, on the day you fall short, you'll 1.6, on the day you fall short, you'll 1.6, on the day you fall short, you'll be 1.2. And that 1.2 won't be made up be 1.2. And that 1.2 won't be made up be 1.2. And that 1.2 won't be made up for on the next day because the downside for on the next day because the downside for on the next day because the downside is asymmetric compared to the upside. So is asymmetric compared to the upside. So is asymmetric compared to the upside. So that's that's that's our recommendation that's that's that's our recommendation that's that's that's our recommendation clinically and that's how we work with clinically and that's how we work with clinically and that's how we work with real people in the real world, not on real people in the real world, not on real people in the real world, not on our Substack pages to try to help them our Substack pages to try to help them our Substack pages to try to help them live a longer life. live a longer life. live a longer life. >> Yeah. Is there anything else with the >> Yeah. Is there anything else with the >> Yeah. Is there anything else with the protein? I mean, protein? I mean, protein? I mean, >> no. Let's never talk about this again. >> no. Let's never talk about this again. >> no. Let's never talk about this again. Pending new data that fundamentally Pending new data that fundamentally Pending new data that fundamentally changed the way we think about it. All changed the way we think about it. All changed the way we think about it. All right. I want to pivot to another topic right. I want to pivot to another topic right. I want to pivot to another topic which you may be single-handedly more which you may be single-handedly more which you may be single-handedly more responsible for the buzz on this topic

1:15responsible for the buzz on this topic responsible for the buzz on this topic than anybody else I can think of and than anybody else I can think of and than anybody else I can think of and that is creatine. that is creatine. that is creatine. So So So um should we start with well first of um should we start with well first of um should we start with well first of all just tell me what got you interested all just tell me what got you interested all just tell me what got you interested in this topic right so so this is when in this topic right so so this is when in this topic right so so this is when like you're you know you're not the like you're you know you're not the like you're you know you're not the typical demographic no no offense typical demographic no no offense typical demographic no no offense intended by that but like when I was in intended by that but like when I was in intended by that but like when I was in high school right and I'm probably 15 high school right and I'm probably 15 high school right and I'm probably 15 years older than you like we as young years older than you like we as young years older than you like we as young boys in high school in the 80s were boys in high school in the 80s were boys in high school in the 80s were mainlining creatine like it was our day mainlining creatine like it was our day mainlining creatine like it was our day job but here's the thing I don't job but here's the thing I don't job but here's the thing I don't remember Why? Right. Like I it must have remember Why? Right. Like I it must have remember Why? Right. Like I it must have been from your friends were doing it. been from your friends were doing it. been from your friends were doing it. >> Well, no, but it must have come from >> Well, no, but it must have come from >> Well, no, but it must have come from bodybuilding magazines. Like I don't bodybuilding magazines. Like I don't bodybuilding magazines. Like I don't know what the I don't know where we got know what the I don't know where we got know what the I don't know where we got the information cuz like I was thinking the information cuz like I was thinking the information cuz like I was thinking about this the other day cuz I knew we about this the other day cuz I knew we about this the other day cuz I knew we were going to talk about this and I was were going to talk about this and I was were going to talk about this and I was like okay there was no internet. Like like okay there was no internet. Like like okay there was no internet. Like like what was our source of truth? It like what was our source of truth? It like what was our source of truth? It was muscle and fitness. So there must was muscle and fitness. So there must was muscle and fitness. So there must have been something in muscle and have been something in muscle and have been something in muscle and fitness that told us this. And then you fitness that told us this. And then you fitness that told us this. And then you know what I realized we did? We would know what I realized we did? We would know what I realized we did? We would hang out at supplement stores. Like we'd

1:16hang out at supplement stores. Like we'd hang out at supplement stores. Like we'd literally go in and the supplement literally go in and the supplement literally go in and the supplement stores always had some big bro in baggy stores always had some big bro in baggy stores always had some big bro in baggy pants that tapered down to his feet and pants that tapered down to his feet and pants that tapered down to his feet and he was barely wearing a shirt and he was he was barely wearing a shirt and he was he was barely wearing a shirt and he was yolked and he was explaining to us and yolked and he was explaining to us and yolked and he was explaining to us and we were like at the altar of this guy we were like at the altar of this guy we were like at the altar of this guy and he was telling us there's creatine and he was telling us there's creatine and he was telling us there's creatine monohydrate and then there's like monohydrate and then there's like monohydrate and then there's like creatine phosphate and at the time creatine phosphate and at the time creatine phosphate and at the time everyone said creatine phosphate is everyone said creatine phosphate is everyone said creatine phosphate is better and you have to load 30 grams a better and you have to load 30 grams a better and you have to load 30 grams a day for 2 weeks then you go into your day for 2 weeks then you go into your day for 2 weeks then you go into your maintenance phase at 5 g a day and then maintenance phase at 5 g a day and then maintenance phase at 5 g a day and then you repeat the cycle every 8 weeks or you repeat the cycle every 8 weeks or you repeat the cycle every 8 weeks or whatever was and we were like buying whatever was and we were like buying whatever was and we were like buying this stuff by the truckload and this is this stuff by the truckload and this is this stuff by the truckload and this is like almost I don't know what 40 years like almost I don't know what 40 years like almost I don't know what 40 years ago, right? Or you know 30 30 Yeah, ago, right? Or you know 30 30 Yeah, ago, right? Or you know 30 30 Yeah, easily 35 40 years ago. Okay, easily 35 40 years ago. Okay, easily 35 40 years ago. Okay, fast forward I don't know a few years fast forward I don't know a few years fast forward I don't know a few years ago we're paying attention to creatine ago we're paying attention to creatine ago we're paying attention to creatine again. again. again. >> Well, you just made a really important >> Well, you just made a really important >> Well, you just made a really important point and I'll talk about my journey in point and I'll talk about my journey in point and I'll talk about my journey in a minute and that is it's one of the a minute and that is it's one of the a minute and that is it's one of the most wellstudied sports related most wellstudied sports related most wellstudied sports related supplements ever, right? I mean, supplements ever, right? I mean, supplements ever, right? I mean, >> there's just decades and decades of

1:17>> there's just decades and decades of >> there's just decades and decades of research out there on creatine. A lot of research out there on creatine. A lot of research out there on creatine. A lot of it has to do with muscle. We'll talk it has to do with muscle. We'll talk it has to do with muscle. We'll talk about, you know, the brain, which is about, you know, the brain, which is about, you know, the brain, which is sort of my my interest, but I mean, it's sort of my my interest, but I mean, it's sort of my my interest, but I mean, it's it's it's one of the tried and true. I it's it's one of the tried and true. I it's it's one of the tried and true. I mean, it's safe. I don't know that mean, it's safe. I don't know that mean, it's safe. I don't know that there's any other sports supplement out there's any other sports supplement out there's any other sports supplement out there that's as safe as creatine. I there that's as safe as creatine. I there that's as safe as creatine. I don't think there is. So, um, that's an don't think there is. So, um, that's an don't think there is. So, um, that's an important point, right? My journey with important point, right? My journey with important point, right? My journey with it began with my obsession with it began with my obsession with it began with my obsession with increasing my resistance training after increasing my resistance training after increasing my resistance training after >> like your performance or your >> like your performance or your >> like your performance or your hypertrophy or your recovery. What hypertrophy or your recovery. What hypertrophy or your recovery. What specifically? specifically? specifically? >> Everything that we talked about in the >> Everything that we talked about in the >> Everything that we talked about in the first h like half of this this episode first h like half of this this episode first h like half of this this episode where I realized that I was so focused where I realized that I was so focused where I realized that I was so focused on endurance training for long-term on endurance training for long-term on endurance training for long-term health, for brain health that I sort of health, for brain health that I sort of health, for brain health that I sort of neglected my muscle mass and thinking neglected my muscle mass and thinking neglected my muscle mass and thinking about how important muscle mass was for about how important muscle mass was for about how important muscle mass was for long-term health. you've been you've long-term health. you've been you've long-term health. you've been you've chronicled this pretty well on your chronicled this pretty well on your chronicled this pretty well on your social media. You've got videos of you social media. You've got videos of you social media. You've got videos of you deadlifting like you're you're really deadlifting like you're you're really deadlifting like you're you're really embracing this. embracing this. embracing this. >> Yes. Awesome. >> Yes. Awesome. >> Yes. Awesome. >> So this is um so you know after after >> So this is um so you know after after >> So this is um so you know after after having a couple of experts on and just having a couple of experts on and just having a couple of experts on and just when I have an expert on I read the

1:18when I have an expert on I read the when I have an expert on I read the literature voraciously like I just dive literature voraciously like I just dive literature voraciously like I just dive in and I I want to be in it right um and in and I I want to be in it right um and in and I I want to be in it right um and it's part of the fun. I love it right it's part of the fun. I love it right it's part of the fun. I love it right like this is like I get to learn all like this is like I get to learn all like this is like I get to learn all this new material that I'm interested this new material that I'm interested this new material that I'm interested in. And so I finally realized that I in. And so I finally realized that I in. And so I finally realized that I wasn't doing enough training, resistance wasn't doing enough training, resistance wasn't doing enough training, resistance training. And so I um got a train. I training. And so I um got a train. I training. And so I um got a train. I have a personal trainer now. I'm doing have a personal trainer now. I'm doing have a personal trainer now. I'm doing resistance type training. I do like a resistance type training. I do like a resistance type training. I do like a CrossFit type training for at least 3 CrossFit type training for at least 3 CrossFit type training for at least 3 hours a week. I'm doing now. It started hours a week. I'm doing now. It started hours a week. I'm doing now. It started out I was doing like 30 minutes a week. out I was doing like 30 minutes a week. out I was doing like 30 minutes a week. So I've gone from 30 minutes to like So I've gone from 30 minutes to like So I've gone from 30 minutes to like three hours a week. Big difference, three hours a week. Big difference, three hours a week. Big difference, right? And that's when I became really right? And that's when I became really right? And that's when I became really interested in creatine where I was like, interested in creatine where I was like, interested in creatine where I was like, "Okay, I know this one supplement is "Okay, I know this one supplement is "Okay, I know this one supplement is obviously like shown to benefit people obviously like shown to benefit people obviously like shown to benefit people that are working out." I didn't know why that are working out." I didn't know why that are working out." I didn't know why everything until I got into the everything until I got into the everything until I got into the literature, but that's kind of what got literature, but that's kind of what got literature, but that's kind of what got my interest into creatine. So, um, I my interest into creatine. So, um, I my interest into creatine. So, um, I started supplementing with, well, let's started supplementing with, well, let's started supplementing with, well, let's talk about creatine, right? So creatine,

1:19talk about creatine, right? So creatine, talk about creatine, right? So creatine, most people know creatine is stored in most people know creatine is stored in most people know creatine is stored in our skeletal muscle as creatine our skeletal muscle as creatine our skeletal muscle as creatine phosphate and it's essentially phosphate and it's essentially phosphate and it's essentially used to rapidly recycle ATP, adenosine used to rapidly recycle ATP, adenosine used to rapidly recycle ATP, adenosine triphosphate. This is the major energy triphosphate. This is the major energy triphosphate. This is the major energy currency in our cells and um so creatine currency in our cells and um so creatine currency in our cells and um so creatine phosphate is able to help rapidly phosphate is able to help rapidly phosphate is able to help rapidly recycle that so you can make energy recycle that so you can make energy recycle that so you can make energy quicker. very relevant for a lot of quicker. very relevant for a lot of quicker. very relevant for a lot of scenarios including highintensity scenarios including highintensity scenarios including highintensity interval training, resistance training, interval training, resistance training, interval training, resistance training, even endurance training because it in it even endurance training because it in it even endurance training because it in it increases it's sorry it decreases increases it's sorry it decreases increases it's sorry it decreases recovery time because you're recycling recovery time because you're recycling recovery time because you're recycling that ATP. So it it's really relevant for that ATP. So it it's really relevant for that ATP. So it it's really relevant for a lot of scenarios and um we do make a lot of scenarios and um we do make a lot of scenarios and um we do make creatine endogenously. That's another creatine endogenously. That's another creatine endogenously. That's another thing where it's like okay we this is a thing where it's like okay we this is a thing where it's like okay we this is a molecule that we make in our body. It's molecule that we make in our body. It's molecule that we make in our body. It's not like a dangerous thing that I'm not like a dangerous thing that I'm not like a dangerous thing that I'm really scared of. Um we make about 1 to really scared of. Um we make about 1 to really scared of. Um we make about 1 to two grams in our liver. Our livers make two grams in our liver. Our livers make two grams in our liver. Our livers make about 1 to two grams a day and then we about 1 to two grams a day and then we about 1 to two grams a day and then we can take in another depending on how can take in another depending on how can take in another depending on how much meat we eat. Meat is the major much meat we eat. Meat is the major much meat we eat. Meat is the major source of dietary source of creatine, source of dietary source of creatine, source of dietary source of creatine, right? So vegetarians 100% rely only on

1:20right? So vegetarians 100% rely only on right? So vegetarians 100% rely only on their 1 to two grams a day and they're their 1 to two grams a day and they're their 1 to two grams a day and they're probably the population that benefits probably the population that benefits probably the population that benefits the most with supplementing with the most with supplementing with the most with supplementing with creatine. And there's just countless creatine. And there's just countless creatine. And there's just countless studies out there showing this because studies out there showing this because studies out there showing this because they are just not getting anything from they are just not getting anything from they are just not getting anything from their diet essentially. I mean there's their diet essentially. I mean there's their diet essentially. I mean there's like it's like ne negligible whatever is like it's like ne negligible whatever is like it's like ne negligible whatever is in plants. in plants. in plants. >> Does the type of meat matter? is fish >> Does the type of meat matter? is fish >> Does the type of meat matter? is fish versus beef versus chicken. I would versus beef versus chicken. I would versus beef versus chicken. I would imagine there are differences. imagine there are differences. imagine there are differences. >> Yes, there are. There are differences. >> Yes, there are. There are differences. >> Yes, there are. There are differences. Like beef would be the most the most. Like beef would be the most the most. Like beef would be the most the most. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and it it's probably why people on a >> Um and it it's probably why people on a >> Um and it it's probably why people on a carnivore diet, they they just get so carnivore diet, they they just get so carnivore diet, they they just get so like jacked, right? They're getting the like jacked, right? They're getting the like jacked, right? They're getting the creatine, they're getting the protein, creatine, they're getting the protein, creatine, they're getting the protein, and they're working out, and it's like and they're working out, and it's like and they're working out, and it's like this combination, right? They're just this combination, right? They're just this combination, right? They're just getting so much. getting so much. getting so much. >> And do you have a sense of if you're >> And do you have a sense of if you're >> And do you have a sense of if you're eating if you eat a 12 ounce steak, how eating if you eat a 12 ounce steak, how eating if you eat a 12 ounce steak, how many grams of creatine would you get in many grams of creatine would you get in many grams of creatine would you get in there? there? there? >> I people can figure that out with, you >> I people can figure that out with, you >> I people can figure that out with, you know, Google. I don't I know generally know, Google. I don't I know generally know, Google. I don't I know generally speaking that like on average people are speaking that like on average people are speaking that like on average people are getting in their diet like probably like getting in their diet like probably like getting in their diet like probably like 1 to two grams 1 to two grams 1 to two grams >> additional. So you've got your >> additional. So you've got your >> additional. So you've got your endogenous plus Okay. endogenous plus Okay. endogenous plus Okay. >> Yes. Yeah. And then and then you can

1:21>> Yes. Yeah. And then and then you can >> Yes. Yeah. And then and then you can supplement on top of that, right? And supplement on top of that, right? And supplement on top of that, right? And this is where I would say for many many this is where I would say for many many this is where I would say for many many many decades the literature was all many decades the literature was all many decades the literature was all about the effects on exercise about the effects on exercise about the effects on exercise performance, right? Because the muscle performance, right? Because the muscle performance, right? Because the muscle is a big consumer of energy, especially is a big consumer of energy, especially is a big consumer of energy, especially if you're working the muscle. And so I'm if you're working the muscle. And so I'm if you're working the muscle. And so I'm totally just summarizing this like, you totally just summarizing this like, you totally just summarizing this like, you know, I'm not I don't want to I'm not know, I'm not I don't want to I'm not know, I'm not I don't want to I'm not going into every single detail, but going into every single detail, but going into every single detail, but generally speaking, generally speaking, generally speaking, five grams a day of creatine is enough five grams a day of creatine is enough five grams a day of creatine is enough to saturate your muscle tissue. It takes to saturate your muscle tissue. It takes to saturate your muscle tissue. It takes about a month, maybe 3 weeks to actually about a month, maybe 3 weeks to actually about a month, maybe 3 weeks to actually fully saturate it. If you're doing five fully saturate it. If you're doing five fully saturate it. If you're doing five grams a day, which is where the loading grams a day, which is where the loading grams a day, which is where the loading phase phase phase >> the bros that were telling me to take 30 >> the bros that were telling me to take 30 >> the bros that were telling me to take 30 when I was 13. when I was 13. when I was 13. >> That's kind of >> That's kind of >> That's kind of >> That might have been overkill. Uh well, >> That might have been overkill. Uh well, >> That might have been overkill. Uh well, no, it's coming from the fact that in no, it's coming from the fact that in no, it's coming from the fact that in these studies that have been done these studies that have been done these studies that have been done because people haven't been taking the because people haven't been taking the because people haven't been taking the five grams a day for like 3 weeks and five grams a day for like 3 weeks and five grams a day for like 3 weeks and they're doing this short-term, you know, they're doing this short-term, you know, they're doing this short-term, you know, weeksl long study, they want to like weeksl long study, they want to like weeksl long study, they want to like quickly get their muscle saturated and quickly get their muscle saturated and quickly get their muscle saturated and that's why they do that loading phase.

1:22that's why they do that loading phase. that's why they do that loading phase. >> And so most people don't have to do >> And so most people don't have to do >> And so most people don't have to do that. The problem unless you're like that. The problem unless you're like that. The problem unless you're like doing some competition and you like need doing some competition and you like need doing some competition and you like need you need, you know, you need it like you need, you know, you need it like you need, you know, you need it like right then and there, but like generally right then and there, but like generally right then and there, but like generally speaking, it's just not necessary and speaking, it's just not necessary and speaking, it's just not necessary and you really just increase the risk of you really just increase the risk of you really just increase the risk of like GI distress. And our thinking today like GI distress. And our thinking today like GI distress. And our thinking today is just take five every day and then you is just take five every day and then you is just take five every day and then you should be all right. Well, that was my should be all right. Well, that was my should be all right. Well, that was my thinking like up until a few months ago thinking like up until a few months ago thinking like up until a few months ago and I was I was taking for the last year and I was I was taking for the last year and I was I was taking for the last year and a half and a half and a half >> I was taking about five grams a day and >> I was taking about five grams a day and >> I was taking about five grams a day and and that you know the evidence there is and that you know the evidence there is and that you know the evidence there is that the the creatine is essentially that the the creatine is essentially that the the creatine is essentially improving your exercise performance in improving your exercise performance in improving your exercise performance in that it's you can do one to two more that it's you can do one to two more that it's you can do one to two more reps or you know you're essentially the reps or you know you're essentially the reps or you know you're essentially the volume of training goes up because volume of training goes up because volume of training goes up because you're recycling that energy quicker. you're recycling that energy quicker. you're recycling that energy quicker. you're able to do more and that is why you're able to do more and that is why you're able to do more and that is why you then get gains in muscle mass and you then get gains in muscle mass and you then get gains in muscle mass and strength. It's not like the creatine strength. It's not like the creatine strength. It's not like the creatine itself is acting like protein, right? itself is acting like protein, right? itself is acting like protein, right? It's not increasing muscle protein It's not increasing muscle protein It's not increasing muscle protein synthesis if you're just a couch potato. synthesis if you're just a couch potato. synthesis if you're just a couch potato. >> Yep. You have to do the work. >> Yep. You have to do the work. >> Yep. You have to do the work. >> You have to do the work, right? And and

1:23>> You have to do the work, right? And and >> You have to do the work, right? And and the reason that you do increase the the reason that you do increase the the reason that you do increase the muscle mass and strength is because muscle mass and strength is because muscle mass and strength is because you're able to do more work, right? And you're able to do more work, right? And you're able to do more work, right? And so that was and it's pretty obvious like so that was and it's pretty obvious like so that was and it's pretty obvious like anyone that for me with my CrossFit, it anyone that for me with my CrossFit, it anyone that for me with my CrossFit, it really is useful because there's a lot really is useful because there's a lot really is useful because there's a lot of explosive leg training, a lot of hit. of explosive leg training, a lot of hit. of explosive leg training, a lot of hit. So for me um and my it was pretty So for me um and my it was pretty So for me um and my it was pretty obvious that it was having an effect. obvious that it was having an effect. obvious that it was having an effect. And of course there could there's And of course there could there's And of course there could there's probably a mixture of placebo in there probably a mixture of placebo in there probably a mixture of placebo in there as well. I'll definitely admit that. But as well. I'll definitely admit that. But as well. I'll definitely admit that. But then um you know I started getting then um you know I started getting then um you know I started getting interested in some of these brain interested in some of these brain interested in some of these brain studies. As you know I'm very interested studies. As you know I'm very interested studies. As you know I'm very interested in in brain health, neurogenerative in in brain health, neurogenerative in in brain health, neurogenerative disease risk, anything that can improve disease risk, anything that can improve disease risk, anything that can improve cognitive function in a safe way like cognitive function in a safe way like cognitive function in a safe way like any kind of safe neutropic. Um and and any kind of safe neutropic. Um and and any kind of safe neutropic. Um and and that's where I really started to get that's where I really started to get that's where I really started to get interested and this this has buil built interested and this this has buil built interested and this this has buil built up over years where I was getting up over years where I was getting up over years where I was getting interested in the brain effects even interested in the brain effects even interested in the brain effects even though I hadn't been supplementing with though I hadn't been supplementing with though I hadn't been supplementing with it. Um I had been sort of just keeping it. Um I had been sort of just keeping it. Um I had been sort of just keeping an eye on the literature and finally an eye on the literature and finally an eye on the literature and finally when I started using it I got pushed when I started using it I got pushed when I started using it I got pushed over. I'm like okay I'm all in and I over. I'm like okay I'm all in and I over. I'm like okay I'm all in and I want to like get into this.

1:24want to like get into this. want to like get into this. >> And so you you you felt like you got all >> And so you you you felt like you got all >> And so you you you felt like you got all in because you actually felt a in because you actually felt a in because you actually felt a difference or you were like well look difference or you were like well look difference or you were like well look I'm already taking it for these muscle I'm already taking it for these muscle I'm already taking it for these muscle purposes. let me really now go deeper on purposes. let me really now go deeper on purposes. let me really now go deeper on the cognitive science. the cognitive science. the cognitive science. >> Yes, I was already like this is clearly >> Yes, I was already like this is clearly >> Yes, I was already like this is clearly improving my first of all, the improving my first of all, the improving my first of all, the literature was clear with the muscle. literature was clear with the muscle. literature was clear with the muscle. There's a lot of literature. You can't There's a lot of literature. You can't There's a lot of literature. You can't deny it. You just can't like whatever deny it. You just can't like whatever deny it. You just can't like whatever one-off study comes out. one-off study comes out. one-off study comes out. >> It is it is a little odd. There there >> It is it is a little odd. There there >> It is it is a little odd. There there aren't that many things that show up aren't that many things that show up aren't that many things that show up where the consistency of the studies is where the consistency of the studies is where the consistency of the studies is always in the same direction. And really always in the same direction. And really always in the same direction. And really what you're basically looking at is the what you're basically looking at is the what you're basically looking at is the magnitude or the effect size, but but magnitude or the effect size, but but magnitude or the effect size, but but you're always on the same side of the you're always on the same side of the you're always on the same side of the tornado plot. tornado plot. tornado plot. >> Exactly. Right. And when we're talking >> Exactly. Right. And when we're talking >> Exactly. Right. And when we're talking about 40 years or whatever of of about 40 years or whatever of of about 40 years or whatever of of research, that's a lot of data. research, that's a lot of data. research, that's a lot of data. >> Um the with with the brain um the so for >> Um the with with the brain um the so for >> Um the with with the brain um the so for one, your brain does make a little bit one, your brain does make a little bit one, your brain does make a little bit of creatine as well. Something I don't of creatine as well. Something I don't of creatine as well. Something I don't remember. I think it's somewhere between remember. I think it's somewhere between remember. I think it's somewhere between 1 to three grams a day, but um the data 1 to three grams a day, but um the data 1 to three grams a day, but um the data on the effects of supplemental creatine on the effects of supplemental creatine on the effects of supplemental creatine on the brain isn't dating back as far. on the brain isn't dating back as far. on the brain isn't dating back as far. And so you do have to kind of take the

1:25And so you do have to kind of take the And so you do have to kind of take the data with somewhat of a grain of salt data with somewhat of a grain of salt data with somewhat of a grain of salt because there's a lot of small studies because there's a lot of small studies because there's a lot of small studies and they're not like, you know, I and they're not like, you know, I and they're not like, you know, I wouldn't you can't hang your head on it wouldn't you can't hang your head on it wouldn't you can't hang your head on it and be like this is the end all be all. and be like this is the end all be all. and be like this is the end all be all. However, I feel like as more data is However, I feel like as more data is However, I feel like as more data is going to come out, I'm pretty certain going to come out, I'm pretty certain going to come out, I'm pretty certain that it's that it's that it's >> and let's talk about some of the >> and let's talk about some of the >> and let's talk about some of the measurements because I think one of the measurements because I think one of the measurements because I think one of the advantages of studying the effects of advantages of studying the effects of advantages of studying the effects of creatine on physical performance is we creatine on physical performance is we creatine on physical performance is we have really good objective measurements have really good objective measurements have really good objective measurements that you can demonstrate in a short that you can demonstrate in a short that you can demonstrate in a short period of time. You could do a 12-week period of time. You could do a 12-week period of time. You could do a 12-week study and in just 12 weeks you could study and in just 12 weeks you could study and in just 12 weeks you could objectively unambiguously determine if objectively unambiguously determine if objectively unambiguously determine if there was hypertrophy and if there was there was hypertrophy and if there was there was hypertrophy and if there was an increase in performance, an increase in performance, an increase in performance, >> right? >> right? >> How do we do that on the cognitive side? >> How do we do that on the cognitive side? >> How do we do that on the cognitive side? What are the data that you've been What are the data that you've been What are the data that you've been looking at that have given you uh an looking at that have given you uh an looking at that have given you uh an increasing level of confidence? increasing level of confidence? increasing level of confidence? >> Okay. Well, first let's talk about dose >> Okay. Well, first let's talk about dose >> Okay. Well, first let's talk about dose because that's important. And I think because that's important. And I think because that's important. And I think that that was where initially when that that was where initially when that that was where initially when researchers were looking into like the researchers were looking into like the researchers were looking into like the effects of creatine on the brain, the effects of creatine on the brain, the effects of creatine on the brain, the five grams a day didn't seem to be doing five grams a day didn't seem to be doing five grams a day didn't seem to be doing anything in terms of like getting

1:26anything in terms of like getting anything in terms of like getting creatine into the brain. And so the creatine into the brain. And so the creatine into the brain. And so the question question question >> So creatine is crossing the bloodb brain >> So creatine is crossing the bloodb brain >> So creatine is crossing the bloodb brain barrier that's established. barrier that's established. barrier that's established. >> It it is. However, the muscles are >> It it is. However, the muscles are >> It it is. However, the muscles are greedy as hell. greedy as hell. greedy as hell. >> Ah, those lovely greedy muscles. >> Ah, those lovely greedy muscles. >> Ah, those lovely greedy muscles. >> Yeah, the greedy muscles. And so they're >> Yeah, the greedy muscles. And so they're >> Yeah, the greedy muscles. And so they're when you're taking in up to about 5 g of when you're taking in up to about 5 g of when you're taking in up to about 5 g of of creatine, they're they're consuming of creatine, they're they're consuming of creatine, they're they're consuming it. They're they're taking their share. it. They're they're taking their share. it. They're they're taking their share. >> Especially if you're training. >> Especially if you're training. >> Especially if you're training. >> If you're training, it's like Yeah, >> If you're training, it's like Yeah, >> If you're training, it's like Yeah, exactly. Um but even if you're not exactly. Um but even if you're not exactly. Um but even if you're not training, it's it's still going to training, it's it's still going to training, it's it's still going to muscle. But yes, especially if you're muscle. But yes, especially if you're muscle. But yes, especially if you're training. And so it was there was a training. And so it was there was a training. And so it was there was a German study that that was published a German study that that was published a German study that that was published a few years back that did dose a dose few years back that did dose a dose few years back that did dose a dose dependent effect and looked at creatine dependent effect and looked at creatine dependent effect and looked at creatine levels in certain brain regions. And levels in certain brain regions. And levels in certain brain regions. And that study, that study, that study, >> so naive question, are they using an >> so naive question, are they using an >> so naive question, are they using an isotope? Are they labeling the creatine? isotope? Are they labeling the creatine? isotope? Are they labeling the creatine? >> I believe they were using an isotope. >> I believe they were using an isotope. >> I believe they were using an isotope. >> They're not using like CSF levels or >> They're not using like CSF levels or >> They're not using like CSF levels or anything. anything. anything. >> I believe it was an isotope. >> I believe it was an isotope. >> I believe it was an isotope. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um, and but don't hold me to it because, >> Um, and but don't hold me to it because, >> Um, and but don't hold me to it because, you know, I I don't remember exactly. you know, I I don't remember exactly. you know, I I don't remember exactly. Um, Um, Um, >> you need more creatine. >> you need more creatine. >> you need more creatine. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. Um, but the 10 grams was where creatine

1:27Um, but the 10 grams was where creatine Um, but the 10 grams was where creatine was now was now was now >> was not rate limited. >> was not rate limited. >> was not rate limited. >> It was Yeah, exactly. Now you were you >> It was Yeah, exactly. Now you were you >> It was Yeah, exactly. Now you were you were increasing levels of creatine in were increasing levels of creatine in were increasing levels of creatine in the brain. Pretty sure it was. um rad the brain. Pretty sure it was. um rad the brain. Pretty sure it was. um rad isotope labeled. So essentially 10 gram. isotope labeled. So essentially 10 gram. isotope labeled. So essentially 10 gram. Yeah, 10 you have to double that. And Yeah, 10 you have to double that. And Yeah, 10 you have to double that. And that's where you know I was like okay that's where you know I was like okay that's where you know I was like okay the the the >> sorry just to be clear I keep I'm sorry >> sorry just to be clear I keep I'm sorry >> sorry just to be clear I keep I'm sorry to interrupt you. Does that mean that to interrupt you. Does that mean that to interrupt you. Does that mean that you're going to get mixed results if you you're going to get mixed results if you you're going to get mixed results if you look at the cognition literature because look at the cognition literature because look at the cognition literature because you're going to have some studies that you're going to have some studies that you're going to have some studies that were underdosed and if if you have a were underdosed and if if you have a were underdosed and if if you have a study that was done at five and it shows study that was done at five and it shows study that was done at five and it shows no effect, you're going to come to the no effect, you're going to come to the no effect, you're going to come to the wrong conclusion potentially. wrong conclusion potentially. wrong conclusion potentially. >> Bingo. Just like with any >> Bingo. Just like with any >> Bingo. Just like with any >> y >> y >> y >> supplement and or drug, right? Dose dose >> supplement and or drug, right? Dose dose >> supplement and or drug, right? Dose dose matters. Um, so yes, that is that is the matters. Um, so yes, that is that is the matters. Um, so yes, that is that is the case. But also, it's important to point case. But also, it's important to point case. But also, it's important to point out just like with muscle, you have to out just like with muscle, you have to out just like with muscle, you have to be stressing your muscle for creatine to be stressing your muscle for creatine to be stressing your muscle for creatine to work, right? You're you're basically work, right? You're you're basically work, right? You're you're basically putting in the work and you're able to putting in the work and you're able to putting in the work and you're able to put in more work, right? And that's why put in more work, right? And that's why put in more work, right? And that's why you can increase muscle mass and you can you can increase muscle mass and you can you can increase muscle mass and you can increase strength. increase strength. increase strength. >> With the brain, it works in the

1:28>> With the brain, it works in the >> With the brain, it works in the background of stress. And what I mean by background of stress. And what I mean by background of stress. And what I mean by stress is stress is stress is sleep deprivation, psychological stress, sleep deprivation, psychological stress, sleep deprivation, psychological stress, like you have an exam, marital, I mean like you have an exam, marital, I mean like you have an exam, marital, I mean what whatever psychological stress, what whatever psychological stress, what whatever psychological stress, emotional stress, sleep deprivation is a emotional stress, sleep deprivation is a emotional stress, sleep deprivation is a big one, ner degenerative disease or big one, ner degenerative disease or big one, ner degenerative disease or anything that's compromising brain anything that's compromising brain anything that's compromising brain function, right? That's where creatine function, right? That's where creatine function, right? That's where creatine really shines in terms of cognitive really shines in terms of cognitive really shines in terms of cognitive function. And we'll get into function. And we'll get into function. And we'll get into measurements, but I think that's measurements, but I think that's measurements, but I think that's important to point out. And you might, important to point out. And you might, important to point out. And you might, this is my argument. I feel like I'm this is my argument. I feel like I'm this is my argument. I feel like I'm constantly under stress. I think most constantly under stress. I think most constantly under stress. I think most people are constantly under stress. people are constantly under stress. people are constantly under stress. First of all, First of all, First of all, >> anybody listening, if you're not under >> anybody listening, if you're not under >> anybody listening, if you're not under stress, I'd like to hear from you. I stress, I'd like to hear from you. I stress, I'd like to hear from you. I want to know what you're doing. want to know what you're doing. want to know what you're doing. >> Same. Same. Um, but yeah, so I mean like >> Same. Same. Um, but yeah, so I mean like >> Same. Same. Um, but yeah, so I mean like even just like diving into the the even just like diving into the the even just like diving into the the scientific literature like what we do scientific literature like what we do scientific literature like what we do every day learning that is the stress, every day learning that is the stress, every day learning that is the stress, right? That's very it's the brain right? That's very it's the brain right? That's very it's the brain consumes a lot of energy as well, right? consumes a lot of energy as well, right? consumes a lot of energy as well, right? It's it's It's it's It's it's >> 20% of our total caloric intake goes to

1:29>> 20% of our total caloric intake goes to >> 20% of our total caloric intake goes to an organ that weighs less than 2% of an organ that weighs less than 2% of an organ that weighs less than 2% of your body weight. It is the most insane your body weight. It is the most insane your body weight. It is the most insane statistic of the human body. statistic of the human body. statistic of the human body. >> Totally. Which is why it makes sense >> Totally. Which is why it makes sense >> Totally. Which is why it makes sense that giving your brain extra creatine, that giving your brain extra creatine, that giving your brain extra creatine, which can recycle that energy quicker, which can recycle that energy quicker, which can recycle that energy quicker, would help particularly in the would help particularly in the would help particularly in the background of when you're using more of background of when you're using more of background of when you're using more of that energy, right? Like if energy is that energy, right? Like if energy is that energy, right? Like if energy is being triaged to whatever stress and the being triaged to whatever stress and the being triaged to whatever stress and the hormones and whatever whatever's going hormones and whatever whatever's going hormones and whatever whatever's going on. um fill in the blank. Um and so the on. um fill in the blank. Um and so the on. um fill in the blank. Um and so the studies that typically are looking at studies that typically are looking at studies that typically are looking at the effects of creatine on cognitive the effects of creatine on cognitive the effects of creatine on cognitive function are looking at like processing function are looking at like processing function are looking at like processing speed. They're looking at a battery of speed. They're looking at a battery of speed. They're looking at a battery of tests that are, you know, typical of tests that are, you know, typical of tests that are, you know, typical of any, you know, fill-in-theblank any, you know, fill-in-theblank any, you know, fill-in-theblank supplement or treatment that is either supplement or treatment that is either supplement or treatment that is either going to improve cognitive function, going to improve cognitive function, going to improve cognitive function, memory being another one, right? Um memory being another one, right? Um memory being another one, right? Um processing speed's a big one, too. I processing speed's a big one, too. I processing speed's a big one, too. I would say that that creatine's been would say that that creatine's been would say that that creatine's been shown to improve, but again really it's shown to improve, but again really it's shown to improve, but again really it's in the background of stress, whether in the background of stress, whether in the background of stress, whether that's stress being aging. So older

1:30that's stress being aging. So older that's stress being aging. So older adults, so aging is kind of a stress, adults, so aging is kind of a stress, adults, so aging is kind of a stress, right? Brain aging. So older adults seem right? Brain aging. So older adults seem right? Brain aging. So older adults seem to benefit from taking exogenous to benefit from taking exogenous to benefit from taking exogenous creatine or supplemental creatine. And creatine or supplemental creatine. And creatine or supplemental creatine. And um people that are sleepd deprived, um people that are sleepd deprived, um people that are sleepd deprived, that's another one. That's a really big that's another one. That's a really big that's another one. That's a really big one. In fact, there's been a a few one. In fact, there's been a a few one. In fact, there's been a a few studies that have shown people that are studies that have shown people that are studies that have shown people that are sleepd deprived, if you give them, this sleepd deprived, if you give them, this sleepd deprived, if you give them, this was on a per kilogram body weight basis. was on a per kilogram body weight basis. was on a per kilogram body weight basis. So, I think total it was like 20 to 25 So, I think total it was like 20 to 25 So, I think total it was like 20 to 25 grams of creatine that were given just grams of creatine that were given just grams of creatine that were given just based on their body weight. But if they based on their body weight. But if they based on their body weight. But if they were sleep deprived and given that were sleep deprived and given that were sleep deprived and given that creatine, not only did the cognitive def creatine, not only did the cognitive def creatine, not only did the cognitive def deficits that usually occur when you're deficits that usually occur when you're deficits that usually occur when you're sleep deprived not occur, but their sleep deprived not occur, but their sleep deprived not occur, but their cognitive processing speed was improved cognitive processing speed was improved cognitive processing speed was improved more than baseline. Now, this is a small more than baseline. Now, this is a small more than baseline. Now, this is a small study. It's like you could if you if you study. It's like you could if you if you study. It's like you could if you if you Peter were to go to the study and look Peter were to go to the study and look Peter were to go to the study and look at this, you'd be like, "This is a small at this, you'd be like, "This is a small at this, you'd be like, "This is a small study. We got, you know," and I agree. I study. We got, you know," and I agree. I study. We got, you know," and I agree. I agree. We can't we can't just hang our agree. We can't we can't just hang our agree. We can't we can't just hang our hat on this one study. hat on this one study. hat on this one study. >> Who's doing these studies? Because there

1:31>> Who's doing these studies? Because there >> Who's doing these studies? Because there can't really be any financial incentive can't really be any financial incentive can't really be any financial incentive to do them, right? Creatine is to do them, right? Creatine is to do them, right? Creatine is ubiquitous. There's no IP around it. Um, ubiquitous. There's no IP around it. Um, ubiquitous. There's no IP around it. Um, we can talk I want to talk a little bit we can talk I want to talk a little bit we can talk I want to talk a little bit about Creapure and some of the actual about Creapure and some of the actual about Creapure and some of the actual help. I want to give people some advice help. I want to give people some advice help. I want to give people some advice on how to go buy creatine because if you on how to go buy creatine because if you on how to go buy creatine because if you go to Amazon, it's like what do I which go to Amazon, it's like what do I which go to Amazon, it's like what do I which one do I buy? Um, but who who's sort of one do I buy? Um, but who who's sort of one do I buy? Um, but who who's sort of taken the mantle on trying to understand taken the mantle on trying to understand taken the mantle on trying to understand this because it is an important question this because it is an important question this because it is an important question and if you've got something that's and if you've got something that's and if you've got something that's insanely cheap, completely safe, has insanely cheap, completely safe, has insanely cheap, completely safe, has other benefits in the body anyway, and other benefits in the body anyway, and other benefits in the body anyway, and all we're really trying to figure out all we're really trying to figure out all we're really trying to figure out is, hey, should we all just be doubling is, hey, should we all just be doubling is, hey, should we all just be doubling our dose from 5 to 10? I' it'd be great our dose from 5 to 10? I' it'd be great our dose from 5 to 10? I' it'd be great to quantify the effect size and stratify to quantify the effect size and stratify to quantify the effect size and stratify patients that we need to be reaching out patients that we need to be reaching out patients that we need to be reaching out to because again not everybody listening to because again not everybody listening to because again not everybody listening to us is doing this anyway and it's just to us is doing this anyway and it's just to us is doing this anyway and it's just one more thing to ask somebody to do one more thing to ask somebody to do one more thing to ask somebody to do which comes at a cost right there's a which comes at a cost right there's a which comes at a cost right there's a psychic cost to just asking people to do psychic cost to just asking people to do psychic cost to just asking people to do more stuff and it's one more thing you more stuff and it's one more thing you more stuff and it's one more thing you got to do um so it would just be I mean got to do um so it would just be I mean got to do um so it would just be I mean again this is like lowhanging fruit in again this is like lowhanging fruit in again this is like lowhanging fruit in the world of of biomedical research the world of of biomedical research the world of of biomedical research >> it is and you know like Darren Kandow is

1:32>> it is and you know like Darren Kandow is >> it is and you know like Darren Kandow is someone who um he's getting into the someone who um he's getting into the someone who um he's getting into the brain stuff he's been doing. I think brain stuff he's been doing. I think brain stuff he's been doing. I think there's a quite a few people that have there's a quite a few people that have there's a quite a few people that have been doing muscle Yeah. been doing muscle Yeah. been doing muscle Yeah. >> research who are now it's opening doors >> research who are now it's opening doors >> research who are now it's opening doors for them where they're like for them where they're like for them where they're like collaborating and they're kind of collaborating and they're kind of collaborating and they're kind of reaching out to like people that are, reaching out to like people that are, reaching out to like people that are, you know, doing more neuroscience and you know, doing more neuroscience and you know, doing more neuroscience and and they're and it's kind of exploding. and they're and it's kind of exploding. and they're and it's kind of exploding. >> This has got like Dom Dagustinino's name >> This has got like Dom Dagustinino's name >> This has got like Dom Dagustinino's name written all over it, right? written all over it, right? written all over it, right? >> That's a really good point. It totally >> That's a really good point. It totally >> That's a really good point. It totally does. does. does. >> We got to talk Dom into doing this. It's >> We got to talk Dom into doing this. It's >> We got to talk Dom into doing this. It's I'm So there was like a pilot study that I'm So there was like a pilot study that I'm So there was like a pilot study that came out and I don't these are came out and I don't these are came out and I don't these are researchers that I don't know researchers that I don't know researchers that I don't know necessarily and some of them are pretty necessarily and some of them are pretty necessarily and some of them are pretty junior but there there was one that came junior but there there was one that came junior but there there was one that came out with people with Alzheimer's disease out with people with Alzheimer's disease out with people with Alzheimer's disease and they were given 20 grams of creatine and they were given 20 grams of creatine and they were given 20 grams of creatine and it improved cognitive function in and it improved cognitive function in and it improved cognitive function in these in these patients with Alzheimer's these in these patients with Alzheimer's these in these patients with Alzheimer's disease and I think there was also disease and I think there was also disease and I think there was also placebo control as well and then they placebo control as well and then they placebo control as well and then they took those same patients and then had took those same patients and then had took those same patients and then had them exercise and it and improved them exercise and it and improved them exercise and it and improved strength and improved you know lean body strength and improved you know lean body strength and improved you know lean body mass. See, I'm I'm just going to be mass. See, I'm I'm just going to be mass. See, I'm I'm just going to be skeptical that that that I I I still skeptical that that that I I I still skeptical that that that I I I still think that the name of the game is

1:33think that the name of the game is think that the name of the game is prevention, right? Like where I'm most prevention, right? Like where I'm most prevention, right? Like where I'm most interested and of course that's the interested and of course that's the interested and of course that's the hardest thing to study. hardest thing to study. hardest thing to study. >> But it you know when we think about the >> But it you know when we think about the >> But it you know when we think about the energy crisis that is happening in a energy crisis that is happening in a energy crisis that is happening in a brain with Alzheimer's disease and while brain with Alzheimer's disease and while brain with Alzheimer's disease and while there are I think you and I would agree there are I think you and I would agree there are I think you and I would agree there are probably many paths towards there are probably many paths towards there are probably many paths towards AD, right? There are inflammatory paths, AD, right? There are inflammatory paths, AD, right? There are inflammatory paths, there are uh lipid mediated and vascular there are uh lipid mediated and vascular there are uh lipid mediated and vascular paths and then there are there there are paths and then there are there there are paths and then there are there there are sort of these more metabolic paths. But sort of these more metabolic paths. But sort of these more metabolic paths. But when you take that individual who is when you take that individual who is when you take that individual who is most susceptible to the metabolic path most susceptible to the metabolic path most susceptible to the metabolic path towards dementia and 10 years earlier or towards dementia and 10 years earlier or towards dementia and 10 years earlier or 20 years earlier, you're giving them a 20 years earlier, you're giving them a 20 years earlier, you're giving them a substrate that is augmenting ATP substrate that is augmenting ATP substrate that is augmenting ATP creation. creation. creation. Yeah, I get it. That's the hardest thing Yeah, I get it. That's the hardest thing Yeah, I get it. That's the hardest thing to study. That's also the single most to study. That's also the single most to study. That's also the single most important question in my mind. important question in my mind. important question in my mind. >> Totally. I mean, prevention is the name >> Totally. I mean, prevention is the name >> Totally. I mean, prevention is the name of the game for sure, 100%. Um, of the game for sure, 100%. Um, of the game for sure, 100%. Um, unfortunately, there's a lot of people's unfortunately, there's a lot of people's unfortunately, there's a lot of people's parents out there that have it right now parents out there that have it right now parents out there that have it right now because because because >> they miss the boat on prevention, right? >> they miss the boat on prevention, right? >> they miss the boat on prevention, right? >> Um, but and so and and those people are, >> Um, but and so and and those people are, >> Um, but and so and and those people are, you know, obviously like their kids are you know, obviously like their kids are you know, obviously like their kids are willing to do anything to help them.

1:34willing to do anything to help them. willing to do anything to help them. It's it's terrible, right? But I mean I It's it's terrible, right? But I mean I It's it's terrible, right? But I mean I think the reality here and the point I think the reality here and the point I think the reality here and the point I want to make is I think that creatine want to make is I think that creatine want to make is I think that creatine for the brain is the most interesting for the brain is the most interesting for the brain is the most interesting aspect of this area of research right aspect of this area of research right aspect of this area of research right now that at least for me um I certainly now that at least for me um I certainly now that at least for me um I certainly think that think that think that there there's really no downside to there there's really no downside to there there's really no downside to doing 10 grams a day. Now in some cases doing 10 grams a day. Now in some cases doing 10 grams a day. Now in some cases sleep deprivation like I just got back sleep deprivation like I just got back sleep deprivation like I just got back from China about 5 days ago. I've been from China about 5 days ago. I've been from China about 5 days ago. I've been like doing 20 grams a day 15 to 20. And like doing 20 grams a day 15 to 20. And like doing 20 grams a day 15 to 20. And are you having any I I was I remember as are you having any I I was I remember as are you having any I I was I remember as a kid I never had the GI side effects a kid I never had the GI side effects a kid I never had the GI side effects with even 30 a day but is is for some with even 30 a day but is is for some with even 30 a day but is is for some people is is 10 to 20 people is is 10 to 20 people is is 10 to 20 >> in one in one dose it would probably >> in one in one dose it would probably >> in one in one dose it would probably affect a lot of people's GI. I do five affect a lot of people's GI. I do five affect a lot of people's GI. I do five gram doses gram doses gram doses >> and you'll just put the five grams into >> and you'll just put the five grams into >> and you'll just put the five grams into water and just water and just water and just >> I put the five grams into water or like >> I put the five grams into water or like >> I put the five grams into water or like tea and then I just take it like that tea and then I just take it like that tea and then I just take it like that and you know I do it mostly before noon. and you know I do it mostly before noon. and you know I do it mostly before noon. So I I like to take it in the because So I I like to take it in the because So I I like to take it in the because for I you know like I said I don't know for I you know like I said I don't know for I you know like I said I don't know if this is placebo but I don't get

1:35if this is placebo but I don't get if this is placebo but I don't get sleepy in the afternoon anymore. If I sleepy in the afternoon anymore. If I sleepy in the afternoon anymore. If I miss if I if I only get five grams I get miss if I if I only get five grams I get miss if I if I only get five grams I get the sleepiness. Now again it could be the sleepiness. Now again it could be the sleepiness. Now again it could be complete like bias and who cares if it's complete like bias and who cares if it's complete like bias and who cares if it's not like not like not like >> if the place is working for you exactly >> if the place is working for you exactly >> if the place is working for you exactly because it's because it's it's because it's because it's it's because it's because it's it's physiologic right. I mean, it's a it's a physiologic right. I mean, it's a it's a physiologic right. I mean, it's a it's a it's a biological mechanism that's it's a biological mechanism that's it's a biological mechanism that's working for me. And if you listen to working for me. And if you listen to working for me. And if you listen to this episode and it works for you, this episode and it works for you, this episode and it works for you, that's great because there's really no that's great because there's really no that's great because there's really no downside. And in fact, I think we're downside. And in fact, I think we're downside. And in fact, I think we're going to get more and more evidence out going to get more and more evidence out going to get more and more evidence out there that it's going to be beneficial there that it's going to be beneficial there that it's going to be beneficial and 10 grams is going to be the new and 10 grams is going to be the new and 10 grams is going to be the new >> the new baseline. >> the new baseline. >> the new baseline. >> Five grams. Yeah, it's going to be the >> Five grams. Yeah, it's going to be the >> Five grams. Yeah, it's going to be the new baseline. new baseline. new baseline. >> But if you aren't in this state of jet >> But if you aren't in this state of jet >> But if you aren't in this state of jet lag, 10 grams per day, you do two shots lag, 10 grams per day, you do two shots lag, 10 grams per day, you do two shots of five and you're you're feeling great. of five and you're you're feeling great. of five and you're you're feeling great. >> That's what I do. 10 g a day. >> That's what I do. 10 g a day. >> That's what I do. 10 g a day. >> Let's talk a little bit about brands. >> Let's talk a little bit about brands. >> Let's talk a little bit about brands. Um, are you are are most of the Um, are you are are most of the Um, are you are are most of the companies out there that are otherwise companies out there that are otherwise companies out there that are otherwise very reputable in making supplements? So very reputable in making supplements? So very reputable in making supplements? So whether that be Thorn, Momentous, like whether that be Thorn, Momentous, like whether that be Thorn, Momentous, like I've lost track of all the names of the I've lost track of all the names of the I've lost track of all the names of the companies out there that make companies out there that make companies out there that make supplements, but there there are a supplements, but there there are a supplements, but there there are a handful of like supplement companies handful of like supplement companies handful of like supplement companies that actually really seem to be that actually really seem to be that actually really seem to be credible. Do you have any difference

1:36credible. Do you have any difference credible. Do you have any difference between them? Do you always look to make between them? Do you always look to make between them? Do you always look to make sure that Creapure is the active sure that Creapure is the active sure that Creapure is the active ingredient within it or does it matter? ingredient within it or does it matter? ingredient within it or does it matter? >> I don't. I think the most important >> I don't. I think the most important >> I don't. I think the most important thing is that it's creatine monohydrate. thing is that it's creatine monohydrate. thing is that it's creatine monohydrate. The reason people like Crea Pure is The reason people like Crea Pure is The reason people like Crea Pure is because it's like pure. Mhm. because it's like pure. Mhm. because it's like pure. Mhm. >> But what I like even more than that is >> But what I like even more than that is >> But what I like even more than that is NSF certification because there's NSF certification because there's NSF certification because there's rigorous testing to make sure there's no rigorous testing to make sure there's no rigorous testing to make sure there's no like lead contamination and these like like lead contamination and these like like lead contamination and these like heavy metals and things that sort of heavy metals and things that sort of heavy metals and things that sort of hitchhike on a lot of these supplements. hitchhike on a lot of these supplements. hitchhike on a lot of these supplements. >> And so I I personally that's what I look >> And so I I personally that's what I look >> And so I I personally that's what I look for. I mean I think Creapure is great for. I mean I think Creapure is great for. I mean I think Creapure is great too. Um I don't know if that depend too. Um I don't know if that depend too. Um I don't know if that depend depending on whatever brand you know is depending on whatever brand you know is depending on whatever brand you know is using Creapure. using Creapure. using Creapure. >> Yeah. Lots of brands are using >> Yeah. Lots of brands are using >> Yeah. Lots of brands are using >> Exactly. So NSF is what I look for. I >> Exactly. So NSF is what I look for. I >> Exactly. So NSF is what I look for. I use the Thorn use the Thorn use the Thorn >> and there's no reason you can't have >> and there's no reason you can't have >> and there's no reason you can't have both, right? You could have creature in both, right? You could have creature in both, right? You could have creature in an NSF certified product. One thing I an NSF certified product. One thing I an NSF certified product. One thing I want to call out that one of the members want to call out that one of the members want to call out that one of the members of my team was sharing with me of my team was sharing with me of my team was sharing with me yesterday. Apparently there are a whole yesterday. Apparently there are a whole yesterday. Apparently there are a whole bunch of creatine gummy products out bunch of creatine gummy products out bunch of creatine gummy products out there there there >> and >> and >> and for for the obvious reason they're very for for the obvious reason they're very for for the obvious reason they're very popular, but there was a third party popular, but there was a third party popular, but there was a third party test. Well, why don't you tell what they

1:37test. Well, why don't you tell what they test. Well, why don't you tell what they discovered? Yeah, I mean it was discovered? Yeah, I mean it was discovered? Yeah, I mean it was essentially there was third party essentially there was third party essentially there was third party testing looking at actually quantifying testing looking at actually quantifying testing looking at actually quantifying the levels of creatine monohydrate in the levels of creatine monohydrate in the levels of creatine monohydrate in these gummies and there was essentially these gummies and there was essentially these gummies and there was essentially none in none in none in 95% 95% 95% of them. I mean and and that does I of them. I mean and and that does I of them. I mean and and that does I think translate to gummies in general. think translate to gummies in general. think translate to gummies in general. I've talked to vitamin manufacturers and I've talked to vitamin manufacturers and I've talked to vitamin manufacturers and they've said it is incredibly they've said it is incredibly they've said it is incredibly challenging to get an active ingredient challenging to get an active ingredient challenging to get an active ingredient into a gummy and you're heating it up. into a gummy and you're heating it up. into a gummy and you're heating it up. So there's the heat component that's So there's the heat component that's So there's the heat component that's degrading things. So gummies um are yeah degrading things. So gummies um are yeah degrading things. So gummies um are yeah unless you can find a third party tested unless you can find a third party tested unless you can find a third party tested gummy that actually has the amount of gummy that actually has the amount of gummy that actually has the amount of creatine monohydrate in it that's creatine monohydrate in it that's creatine monohydrate in it that's labeled that says on the nutrition facts labeled that says on the nutrition facts labeled that says on the nutrition facts label I would avoid a gummy. label I would avoid a gummy. label I would avoid a gummy. >> Yeah. And also the thing about this >> Yeah. And also the thing about this >> Yeah. And also the thing about this whole gummy craze that drives me bananas whole gummy craze that drives me bananas whole gummy craze that drives me bananas is you you have to ask the question how is you you have to ask the question how is you you have to ask the question how many gummies do I need to eat? So look many gummies do I need to eat? So look many gummies do I need to eat? So look at the chalky white creatine powder. at the chalky white creatine powder. at the chalky white creatine powder. Look at what 5 g looks like and ask

1:38Look at what 5 g looks like and ask Look at what 5 g looks like and ask yourself how many gummies would I need yourself how many gummies would I need yourself how many gummies would I need to put this into such that they would be to put this into such that they would be to put this into such that they would be palatable? And then the question is do I palatable? And then the question is do I palatable? And then the question is do I really want that many gummy bears? Like really want that many gummy bears? Like really want that many gummy bears? Like what am I doing to my teeth? what am I doing to my teeth? what am I doing to my teeth? >> Yeah. What else is in the gummy? >> Yeah. What else is in the gummy? >> Yeah. What else is in the gummy? >> How much sugar do I need to eat that's >> How much sugar do I need to eat that's >> How much sugar do I need to eat that's totally unnecessary? Like if I'm going totally unnecessary? Like if I'm going totally unnecessary? Like if I'm going to have sugar, let let it be good. Give to have sugar, let let it be good. Give to have sugar, let let it be good. Give me a nice piece of chocolate, right? me a nice piece of chocolate, right? me a nice piece of chocolate, right? Like give me a piece of carrot cake. I'm Like give me a piece of carrot cake. I'm Like give me a piece of carrot cake. I'm not going to squander my sugar calories not going to squander my sugar calories not going to squander my sugar calories on gummy bears that are not even giving on gummy bears that are not even giving on gummy bears that are not even giving me creatine. me creatine. me creatine. >> Don't eat the gummy. Like, you need the >> Don't eat the gummy. Like, you need the >> Don't eat the gummy. Like, you need the powder. Like, thanks for bringing that powder. Like, thanks for bringing that powder. Like, thanks for bringing that because also capsules. You're going to because also capsules. You're going to because also capsules. You're going to have to take so many capsules to get have to take so many capsules to get have to take so many capsules to get like I say the 10 grams or even the five like I say the 10 grams or even the five like I say the 10 grams or even the five if you're just looking for the muscle if you're just looking for the muscle if you're just looking for the muscle effects. Like, you you're just going to effects. Like, you you're just going to effects. Like, you you're just going to have to take a lot of capsules. Um, and have to take a lot of capsules. Um, and have to take a lot of capsules. Um, and so that's also an important point. I so that's also an important point. I so that's also an important point. I also think that like the vegan thing and also think that like the vegan thing and also think that like the vegan thing and vegetarian is another really important vegetarian is another really important vegetarian is another really important aspect here. Like they're I don't know. aspect here. Like they're I don't know. aspect here. Like they're I don't know. >> But if you if you take them to 10, they >> But if you if you take them to 10, they >> But if you if you take them to 10, they should be fine cuz they're at least should be fine cuz they're at least should be fine cuz they're at least offsetting the couple. offsetting the couple. offsetting the couple. >> I'm just saying it'll change. Like I >> I'm just saying it'll change. Like I >> I'm just saying it'll change. Like I have so many vegan friends. I have vegan have so many vegan friends. I have vegan have so many vegan friends. I have vegan friends that it is literally changed friends that it is literally changed friends that it is literally changed their lives. Like I my phone blew up.

1:39their lives. Like I my phone blew up. their lives. Like I my phone blew up. Like I mean I couldn't believe the Like I mean I couldn't believe the Like I mean I couldn't believe the magnitude of effect that these women magnitude of effect that these women magnitude of effect that these women were experiencing was way out compared were experiencing was way out compared were experiencing was way out compared to what I was getting. And I noticed an to what I was getting. And I noticed an to what I was getting. And I noticed an effect. They they were just I mean it effect. They they were just I mean it effect. They they were just I mean it was like unreal. was like unreal. was like unreal. >> And how long had they been vegan? >> And how long had they been vegan? >> And how long had they been vegan? Um, one of them not that long. One of Um, one of them not that long. One of Um, one of them not that long. One of them like not that long, maybe like two them like not that long, maybe like two them like not that long, maybe like two years, but the other one just like, you years, but the other one just like, you years, but the other one just like, you know, know, know, >> most of her life. Yeah. And so I'd be >> most of her life. Yeah. And so I'd be >> most of her life. Yeah. And so I'd be interested, the one who had been vegan interested, the one who had been vegan interested, the one who had been vegan for 2 years, like when she all of a for 2 years, like when she all of a for 2 years, like when she all of a sudden got creatine back, I wonder if sudden got creatine back, I wonder if sudden got creatine back, I wonder if that was a short enough period of time that was a short enough period of time that was a short enough period of time that she was like, "Oh my god, this is that she was like, "Oh my god, this is that she was like, "Oh my god, this is what I used to feel like just two years what I used to feel like just two years what I used to feel like just two years ago." Or there's probably too many ago." Or there's probably too many ago." Or there's probably too many confounding confounding confounding >> variables. She's always kind of >> variables. She's always kind of >> variables. She's always kind of calorically restricted, too, and I don't calorically restricted, too, and I don't calorically restricted, too, and I don't know how much protein she was really know how much protein she was really know how much protein she was really eating when she wasn't wasn't Yeah, but eating when she wasn't wasn't Yeah, but eating when she wasn't wasn't Yeah, but that's a good question. that's a good question. that's a good question. >> Talk to me about kids. So, my daughter >> Talk to me about kids. So, my daughter >> Talk to me about kids. So, my daughter is 17. She's really training hard. I is 17. She's really training hard. I is 17. She's really training hard. I mean, she runs cross country. She does mean, she runs cross country. She does mean, she runs cross country. She does track. She's in the weight room. Um, is track. She's in the weight room. Um, is track. She's in the weight room. Um, is she too young? Should you be should she she too young? Should you be should she she too young? Should you be should she be taking creatine? be taking creatine? be taking creatine? >> Yes. There's studies out there on kids. >> Yes. There's studies out there on kids. >> Yes. There's studies out there on kids. And so, like children like younger than And so, like children like younger than And so, like children like younger than 17 that are doing like

1:4017 that are doing like 17 that are doing like my boys who are giving it to my sons. my boys who are giving it to my sons. my boys who are giving it to my sons. Okay. How much? Okay. How much? Okay. How much? >> It's if I remember correctly, it's like >> It's if I remember correctly, it's like >> It's if I remember correctly, it's like 0.1 g per kilogram body weight. I give 0.1 g per kilogram body weight. I give 0.1 g per kilogram body weight. I give my son like 2 and a half grams. my son like 2 and a half grams. my son like 2 and a half grams. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And um it again there's studies out >> And um it again there's studies out >> And um it again there's studies out there that it's it improves there that it's it improves there that it's it improves agility is a big one and speed. So a lot agility is a big one and speed. So a lot agility is a big one and speed. So a lot of these studies were done more like an of these studies were done more like an of these studies were done more like an endurance like cuz kids aren't like endurance like cuz kids aren't like endurance like cuz kids aren't like lifting weights but so it improves like lifting weights but so it improves like lifting weights but so it improves like agility agility and speed. agility agility and speed. agility agility and speed. >> And would you for my daughter give her >> And would you for my daughter give her >> And would you for my daughter give her five? five? five? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Of course. Also she's she's studying >> Of course. Also she's she's studying >> Of course. Also she's she's studying hard like does she just need the full hard like does she just need the full hard like does she just need the full >> Exactly. Um, good question because she >> Exactly. Um, good question because she >> Exactly. Um, good question because she is almost an adult, right? is almost an adult, right? is almost an adult, right? >> I mean, I don't I think she's done. >> I mean, I don't I think she's done. >> I mean, I don't I think she's done. >> If it were me, I would do 10. >> If it were me, I would do 10. >> If it were me, I would do 10. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> If it was my daughter. Um, that Yeah, >> If it was my daughter. Um, that Yeah, >> If it was my daughter. Um, that Yeah, there's, you know, there's actually some there's, you know, there's actually some there's, you know, there's actually some studies that have been done in college studies that have been done in college studies that have been done in college students who are undergoing like taking students who are undergoing like taking students who are undergoing like taking a test and stuff. And of course, you're a test and stuff. And of course, you're a test and stuff. And of course, you're sleep deprived when you're studying for sleep deprived when you're studying for sleep deprived when you're studying for the test and the creatine improves test the test and the creatine improves test the test and the creatine improves test score. So,

1:41score. So, score. So, >> I'm I'm all in on the creatine. >> I'm I'm all in on the creatine. >> I'm I'm all in on the creatine. >> My creatine budget literally the >> My creatine budget literally the >> My creatine budget literally the household creatine budget just went up household creatine budget just went up household creatine budget just went up 4x. it it same with same same happened 4x. it it same with same same happened 4x. it it same with same same happened to me like you know like 6 months ago or to me like you know like 6 months ago or to me like you know like 6 months ago or so. Um but there's no again the harm so. Um but there's no again the harm so. Um but there's no again the harm that people like claim there's just it's that people like claim there's just it's that people like claim there's just it's unfounded you know like the kidney unfounded you know like the kidney unfounded you know like the kidney problems like it it doesn't cause first problems like it it doesn't cause first problems like it it doesn't cause first of all as you as a physician you know of all as you as a physician you know of all as you as a physician you know what the problem is people are looking what the problem is people are looking what the problem is people are looking at creatinin if you're like if you're at creatinin if you're like if you're at creatinin if you're like if you're supplementing with creatine you you got supplementing with creatine you you got supplementing with creatine you you got to tell your physician to tell your physician to tell your physician >> well the other thing is physicians >> well the other thing is physicians >> well the other thing is physicians listening to this please make this listening to this please make this listening to this please make this another reason to just look at cistatin another reason to just look at cistatin another reason to just look at cistatin C please I don't I I'm sure the test C please I don't I I'm sure the test C please I don't I I'm sure the test costs an extra dollar it's worth it costs an extra dollar it's worth it costs an extra dollar it's worth it cistatin C is a far more accurate way to cistatin C is a far more accurate way to cistatin C is a far more accurate way to measure and estimate measure and estimate measure and estimate GFR and you don't have this problem of GFR and you don't have this problem of GFR and you don't have this problem of getting the confounded creatine levels getting the confounded creatine levels getting the confounded creatine levels increased. Um, increased. Um, increased. Um, I know we have to get you out the door I know we have to get you out the door I know we have to get you out the door relatively soon because you were giving relatively soon because you were giving relatively soon because you were giving a talk today, but if we have a little a talk today, but if we have a little a talk today, but if we have a little bit more time, I want to talk something bit more time, I want to talk something bit more time, I want to talk something about a topic that is near and dear to about a topic that is near and dear to about a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts, which is both of our hearts, which is both of our hearts, which is temperature. Um,

1:42you know, my journey on the sauna train, you know, my journey on the sauna train, right? I was probably the biggest sauna right? I was probably the biggest sauna right? I was probably the biggest sauna skeptic for many years. Um, not because skeptic for many years. Um, not because skeptic for many years. Um, not because I didn't love it. I love I've always I didn't love it. I love I've always I didn't love it. I love I've always loved ASA. I just had a hard time loved ASA. I just had a hard time loved ASA. I just had a hard time believing that the data were causal, believing that the data were causal, believing that the data were causal, right? I was just like, there's too much right? I was just like, there's too much right? I was just like, there's too much healthy user bias in here. Um but you healthy user bias in here. Um but you healthy user bias in here. Um but you know over the last 5 years as I've know over the last 5 years as I've know over the last 5 years as I've looked closer and closer at the data um looked closer and closer at the data um looked closer and closer at the data um while I can't comment on the effect size while I can't comment on the effect size while I can't comment on the effect size I think it's very difficult to comment I think it's very difficult to comment I think it's very difficult to comment on the effect size from all the on the effect size from all the on the effect size from all the epidemiology epidemiology epidemiology it's very difficult for me to believe it's very difficult for me to believe it's very difficult for me to believe that there isn't a positive effect in that there isn't a positive effect in that there isn't a positive effect in terms of at least cardiovascular disease terms of at least cardiovascular disease terms of at least cardiovascular disease and dementia. Um so that those are my and dementia. Um so that those are my and dementia. Um so that those are my priors. My priors are I'm now in a place priors. My priors are I'm now in a place priors. My priors are I'm now in a place where I actually view sauna as an where I actually view sauna as an where I actually view sauna as an intervention that can help an individual intervention that can help an individual intervention that can help an individual reduce their risk. And for me reduce their risk. And for me reduce their risk. And for me personally, because I don't really worry personally, because I don't really worry personally, because I don't really worry about cardiovascular disease anymore, about cardiovascular disease anymore, about cardiovascular disease anymore, it's so easy to manage the risk around it's so easy to manage the risk around it's so easy to manage the risk around that otherwise. But dementia is a very that otherwise. But dementia is a very that otherwise. But dementia is a very difficult risk to manage cuz you know

1:43difficult risk to manage cuz you know difficult risk to manage cuz you know there's fewer things we understand about there's fewer things we understand about there's fewer things we understand about the causal pathways to get there than we the causal pathways to get there than we the causal pathways to get there than we do ASBD. So, in many ways, I'm in the do ASBD. So, in many ways, I'm in the do ASBD. So, in many ways, I'm in the sauna not just because I enjoy it, not sauna not just because I enjoy it, not sauna not just because I enjoy it, not just because it's a wonderful social just because it's a wonderful social just because it's a wonderful social opportunity to be with your spouse, if opportunity to be with your spouse, if opportunity to be with your spouse, if that's how you choose to do it, but that's how you choose to do it, but that's how you choose to do it, but because I'm also banking a little bit because I'm also banking a little bit because I'm also banking a little bit on, hey, I want to get some benefit to on, hey, I want to get some benefit to on, hey, I want to get some benefit to my brain. So, tell us where you are my brain. So, tell us where you are my brain. So, tell us where you are currently because I you're one of the currently because I you're one of the currently because I you're one of the people who I think keeps up with this people who I think keeps up with this people who I think keeps up with this literature more than anybody. So tell us literature more than anybody. So tell us literature more than anybody. So tell us if anything has changed in your mind one if anything has changed in your mind one if anything has changed in your mind one way or the other both in increasing way or the other both in increasing way or the other both in increasing confidence decreasing confidence you confidence decreasing confidence you confidence decreasing confidence you know just just update us on where you know just just update us on where you know just just update us on where you are. are. are. >> Yeah I I am still a huge proponent of >> Yeah I I am still a huge proponent of >> Yeah I I am still a huge proponent of using deliberate heat exposure to using deliberate heat exposure to using deliberate heat exposure to improve your health both cardiovascular improve your health both cardiovascular improve your health both cardiovascular and brain. I do think that the and brain. I do think that the and brain. I do think that the physiological mechanisms physiological mechanisms physiological mechanisms um are um are um are somewhat in many in in some ways somewhat in many in in some ways somewhat in many in in some ways mimicking some aspects of moderate mimicking some aspects of moderate mimicking some aspects of moderate intensity cardiovascular exercise and

1:44intensity cardiovascular exercise and intensity cardiovascular exercise and that is how it is improving that is how it is improving that is how it is improving cardiovascular health and also a an cardiovascular health and also a an cardiovascular health and also a an aspect of that brain health. um aspect of that brain health. um aspect of that brain health. um cardiorespiratory fitness that's been cardiorespiratory fitness that's been cardiorespiratory fitness that's been shown. There's been not only like shown. There's been not only like shown. There's been not only like observational data, but there's been observational data, but there's been observational data, but there's been intervention studies looking at intervention studies looking at intervention studies looking at endurance getting someone on a endurance getting someone on a endurance getting someone on a stationary cycle and then adding the stationary cycle and then adding the stationary cycle and then adding the sauna on top of that and V2 max sauna on top of that and V2 max sauna on top of that and V2 max improvements were greater in individuals improvements were greater in individuals improvements were greater in individuals that are also doing the sauna right that are also doing the sauna right that are also doing the sauna right after their training. after their training. after their training. >> So, um anything that improves >> So, um anything that improves >> So, um anything that improves cardiovascular health is going to cardiovascular health is going to cardiovascular health is going to improve brain health. But there's improve brain health. But there's improve brain health. But there's another aspect to the story here and another aspect to the story here and another aspect to the story here and this kind of dates back to like the this kind of dates back to like the this kind of dates back to like the origins of my like one of my first origins of my like one of my first origins of my like one of my first biology you know experiments I did in um biology you know experiments I did in um biology you know experiments I did in um when I was actually a technician at the when I was actually a technician at the when I was actually a technician at the Sulk Institute before I went to graduate Sulk Institute before I went to graduate Sulk Institute before I went to graduate school. And that has to do with the heat school. And that has to do with the heat school. And that has to do with the heat shock protein response. And so we do shock protein response. And so we do shock protein response. And so we do know that heat stress in the form of know that heat stress in the form of know that heat stress in the form of either hot baths or going into a hot either hot baths or going into a hot either hot baths or going into a hot sauna sauna sauna infrared sauna a little different. you'd infrared sauna a little different. you'd infrared sauna a little different. you'd have to stay in there really long, like

1:45have to stay in there really long, like have to stay in there really long, like a long time to get to get a real heat a long time to get to get a real heat a long time to get to get a real heat shock response. But if you're in like a shock response. But if you're in like a shock response. But if you're in like a 163 degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 163 degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 163 degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 minutes, we know that heat shock minutes, we know that heat shock minutes, we know that heat shock proteins increase about uh 50% over proteins increase about uh 50% over proteins increase about uh 50% over baseline. baseline. baseline. >> And what would be the equivalent >> And what would be the equivalent >> And what would be the equivalent exposure in steam or water? exposure in steam or water? exposure in steam or water? >> In the water, it's about 104° for 20 >> In the water, it's about 104° for 20 >> In the water, it's about 104° for 20 minutes, like shoulders down. So you're minutes, like shoulders down. So you're minutes, like shoulders down. So you're >> 20 minutes. >> 20 minutes. >> 20 minutes. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Yeah. About 20 minutes. And then >> Yeah. About 20 minutes. And then >> Yeah. About 20 minutes. And then presumably if you're in a hotter dry presumably if you're in a hotter dry presumably if you're in a hotter dry sauna less time is needed sauna less time is needed sauna less time is needed >> presumably uh we don't have that data. >> presumably uh we don't have that data. >> presumably uh we don't have that data. I'm just quoting the data we that we the I'm just quoting the data we that we the I'm just quoting the data we that we the empirical data that we have. And what empirical data that we have. And what empirical data that we have. And what tell me more about the IR because there tell me more about the IR because there tell me more about the IR because there are no questions I get asked more than are no questions I get asked more than are no questions I get asked more than hey are all the benefits you're talking hey are all the benefits you're talking hey are all the benefits you're talking about which all seem to come from about which all seem to come from about which all seem to come from studies in dry sauna are they also studies in dry sauna are they also studies in dry sauna are they also applicable to to infrared saunas to applicable to to infrared saunas to applicable to to infrared saunas to which the only data I can find is if which the only data I can find is if which the only data I can find is if you're using infrared you actually have you're using infrared you actually have you're using infrared you actually have to rely on the change in skin to rely on the change in skin to rely on the change in skin temperature to know you've hit the

1:46temperature to know you've hit the temperature to know you've hit the whereas in in dry sauna we can look at whereas in in dry sauna we can look at whereas in in dry sauna we can look at time and temperature and humidity right time and temperature and humidity right time and temperature and humidity right like if I know the temperature of the like if I know the temperature of the like if I know the temperature of the sauna the humidity of the sauna and the sauna the humidity of the sauna and the sauna the humidity of the sauna and the duration that you're in there. I know duration that you're in there. I know duration that you're in there. I know what I know how to measure the effect what I know how to measure the effect what I know how to measure the effect size. We can't do that in IR. So, we size. We can't do that in IR. So, we size. We can't do that in IR. So, we looked at some data that that looked at looked at some data that that looked at looked at some data that that looked at basically thermal skin change and I I basically thermal skin change and I I basically thermal skin change and I I can't remember the number so I don't can't remember the number so I don't can't remember the number so I don't want to get it wrong. It was either five want to get it wrong. It was either five want to get it wrong. It was either five or 8 degree increase in skin temperature or 8 degree increase in skin temperature or 8 degree increase in skin temperature was necessary to produce similar was necessary to produce similar was necessary to produce similar benefits. What do you do do you know benefits. What do you do do you know benefits. What do you do do you know about this? I so I had not that I don't about this? I so I had not that I don't about this? I so I had not that I don't know specifically about that but I do know specifically about that but I do know specifically about that but I do know most of the studies that have been know most of the studies that have been know most of the studies that have been done comparing and there have not been done comparing and there have not been done comparing and there have not been many maybe three or four that I can many maybe three or four that I can many maybe three or four that I can think of they have compared a regular think of they have compared a regular think of they have compared a regular hot sauna to infrared sauna at the same hot sauna to infrared sauna at the same hot sauna to infrared sauna at the same amount of time. So in other words the amount of time. So in other words the amount of time. So in other words the dose is the same. Obviously the dose is the same. Obviously the dose is the same. Obviously the temperature difference is pretty vast temperature difference is pretty vast temperature difference is pretty vast depending on the study. The hot sauna depending on the study. The hot sauna depending on the study. The hot sauna could be, you know, 160 or it could be could be, you know, 160 or it could be could be, you know, 160 or it could be 175 or 180 and the infrared is like 140 175 or 180 and the infrared is like 140 175 or 180 and the infrared is like 140 or something like that, right? So, a lot or something like that, right? So, a lot or something like that, right? So, a lot of variation in terms of, you know, the

1:47of variation in terms of, you know, the of variation in terms of, you know, the temperature of the saunas. If you're temperature of the saunas. If you're temperature of the saunas. If you're looking at there haven't, in fact, looking at there haven't, in fact, looking at there haven't, in fact, there's like one study like the title of there's like one study like the title of there's like one study like the title of something like infrared saunas or something like infrared saunas or something like infrared saunas or something like does not mimic something like does not mimic something like does not mimic cardiovascular effects of exercise or cardiovascular effects of exercise or cardiovascular effects of exercise or something like that. And that's because something like that. And that's because something like that. And that's because at this the given dose, right, if you're at this the given dose, right, if you're at this the given dose, right, if you're just doing like a 20 or 30 minutes, it's just doing like a 20 or 30 minutes, it's just doing like a 20 or 30 minutes, it's not going to be the same. Like your not going to be the same. Like your not going to be the same. Like your heart rate doesn't go up as much. You heart rate doesn't go up as much. You heart rate doesn't go up as much. You don't feel as hot because the don't feel as hot because the don't feel as hot because the temperature is not as hot. Now, you will temperature is not as hot. Now, you will temperature is not as hot. Now, you will sweat based on a different mechanism. sweat based on a different mechanism. sweat based on a different mechanism. But as far as my take of the literature, But as far as my take of the literature, But as far as my take of the literature, it's pretty clear to me that infrared it's pretty clear to me that infrared it's pretty clear to me that infrared saunas, if you want it to mimic the saunas, if you want it to mimic the saunas, if you want it to mimic the cardiovascular exercise response, you cardiovascular exercise response, you cardiovascular exercise response, you might have to double that. You might might have to double that. You might might have to double that. You might have to Yeah. So rather than spending 20 have to Yeah. So rather than spending 20 have to Yeah. So rather than spending 20 minutes in 175° 180° sauna, you're going minutes in 175° 180° sauna, you're going minutes in 175° 180° sauna, you're going to spend 40 minutes. to spend 40 minutes. to spend 40 minutes. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Right. So, you're giving up your time >> Right. So, you're giving up your time >> Right. So, you're giving up your time >> if that's the kind of sauna that you >> if that's the kind of sauna that you >> if that's the kind of sauna that you either have or enjoy

1:48either have or enjoy either have or enjoy >> because you if you do and I've been in >> because you if you do and I've been in >> because you if you do and I've been in infrared saunas many times if you stay infrared saunas many times if you stay infrared saunas many times if you stay in long enough like you get that you in long enough like you get that you in long enough like you get that you feel hot and you feel that like heart feel hot and you feel that like heart feel hot and you feel that like heart rate going up just like you do when rate going up just like you do when rate going up just like you do when you're in a hot sauna. It just takes a you're in a hot sauna. It just takes a you're in a hot sauna. It just takes a lot longer. Um now I know you've had Dr. lot longer. Um now I know you've had Dr. lot longer. Um now I know you've had Dr. Ashley Mason on this on um on your your Ashley Mason on this on um on your your Ashley Mason on this on um on your your podcast. She's been on my podcast as podcast. She's been on my podcast as podcast. She's been on my podcast as well. I've I'm a we collaborate. well. I've I'm a we collaborate. well. I've I'm a we collaborate. >> Is she awesome? >> Is she awesome? >> Is she awesome? >> She's awesome. just love her. >> She's awesome. just love her. >> She's awesome. just love her. >> She's awesome and we collaborate on a >> She's awesome and we collaborate on a >> She's awesome and we collaborate on a variety of sauna studies. She does a lot variety of sauna studies. She does a lot variety of sauna studies. She does a lot of she wears a lot of hats and her data of she wears a lot of hats and her data of she wears a lot of hats and her data looking at you know she's a psychologist looking at you know she's a psychologist looking at you know she's a psychologist by training and she looks at depression by training and she looks at depression by training and she looks at depression and she's looking at depression as an and she's looking at depression as an and she's looking at depression as an endpoint in terms of you know these endpoint in terms of you know these endpoint in terms of you know these infrared saunas and she's looking at infrared saunas and she's looking at infrared saunas and she's looking at core body temperature increases right so core body temperature increases right so core body temperature increases right so people their core body temperature is people their core body temperature is people their core body temperature is going up by like almost 2° going up by like almost 2° going up by like almost 2° and um in th in that case I mean she's and um in th in that case I mean she's and um in th in that case I mean she's got them in an infrared sauna for like got them in an infrared sauna for like got them in an infrared sauna for like 85 minutes they're in there a long time 85 minutes they're in there a long time 85 minutes they're in there a long time and they are getting hot and she'll like and they are getting hot and she'll like and they are getting hot and she'll like she'll talk about it. You know, the

1:49she'll talk about it. You know, the she'll talk about it. You know, the people are they've got she's got people are they've got she's got people are they've got she's got assistants that are cooling them down on assistants that are cooling them down on assistants that are cooling them down on their head cuz it's a head out infrared their head cuz it's a head out infrared their head cuz it's a head out infrared sauna. It's like a it's like a basically sauna. It's like a it's like a basically sauna. It's like a it's like a basically like a bed. Um and and uh anyways, like a bed. Um and and uh anyways, like a bed. Um and and uh anyways, that's that's a whole other area looking that's that's a whole other area looking that's that's a whole other area looking at the effects on mental health. And at the effects on mental health. And at the effects on mental health. And this this actually stems from her this this actually stems from her this this actually stems from her mentor, Dr. Charles Raison, who I had on mentor, Dr. Charles Raison, who I had on mentor, Dr. Charles Raison, who I had on the podcast many years ago. um he did the podcast many years ago. um he did the podcast many years ago. um he did this like really phenomenal pilot study this like really phenomenal pilot study this like really phenomenal pilot study looking at it was it was a kind of funny looking at it was it was a kind of funny looking at it was it was a kind of funny it's called hyperothermia so like you're it's called hyperothermia so like you're it's called hyperothermia so like you're inducing hypothermia right inducing hypothermia right inducing hypothermia right >> um and it's like this funny chamber >> um and it's like this funny chamber >> um and it's like this funny chamber where it's increasing your core body where it's increasing your core body where it's increasing your core body temperature temperature temperature >> um but we Ashley's not using that >> um but we Ashley's not using that >> um but we Ashley's not using that anymore she's established the the heat anymore she's established the the heat anymore she's established the the heat bed as a you know safe bed as a you know safe bed as a you know safe >> and what do you think is the role of the >> and what do you think is the role of the >> and what do you think is the role of the head being hot so when I am in our sauna head being hot so when I am in our sauna head being hot so when I am in our sauna which is a dry sauna um I I I think and which is a dry sauna um I I I think and which is a dry sauna um I I I think and and I'll run it pretty hot. I mean, I and I'll run it pretty hot. I mean, I and I'll run it pretty hot. I mean, I I'll run it above like at least 190. I'll run it above like at least 190. I'll run it above like at least 190. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um and again, part of it is I don't want

1:50>> Um and again, part of it is I don't want >> Um and again, part of it is I don't want to be in there for more than 20 minutes to be in there for more than 20 minutes to be in there for more than 20 minutes because time is tight. Time is my most because time is tight. Time is my most because time is tight. Time is my most precious commodity. So, I'd ra I'd precious commodity. So, I'd ra I'd precious commodity. So, I'd ra I'd rather do 190 to 200 for 20 minutes than rather do 190 to 200 for 20 minutes than rather do 190 to 200 for 20 minutes than than go longer. But I will tell you the than go longer. But I will tell you the than go longer. But I will tell you the most discomfort is in my head. most discomfort is in my head. most discomfort is in my head. >> Now, of course, part of that is I'm >> Now, of course, part of that is I'm >> Now, of course, part of that is I'm sitting on the top bench and so sitting on the top bench and so sitting on the top bench and so temperature is hottest at the top. So I temperature is hottest at the top. So I temperature is hottest at the top. So I think my head is exposed to more heat think my head is exposed to more heat think my head is exposed to more heat than my torso just based on that than my torso just based on that than my torso just based on that difference. But is there harm or benefit difference. But is there harm or benefit difference. But is there harm or benefit or do we know anything that's happening or do we know anything that's happening or do we know anything that's happening from any of these other metabolic from any of these other metabolic from any of these other metabolic parameters? parameters? parameters? >> I will okay to answer that question >> I will okay to answer that question >> I will okay to answer that question it'll take me in a whole other it'll take me in a whole other it'll take me in a whole other direction. Should I go there right now direction. Should I go there right now direction. Should I go there right now or should I finish? or should I finish? or should I finish? >> No, I'm sorry then finish because I want >> No, I'm sorry then finish because I want >> No, I'm sorry then finish because I want >> finish and then go there. All right. So >> finish and then go there. All right. So >> finish and then go there. All right. So basically the whole the only point I was basically the whole the only point I was basically the whole the only point I was getting at was the pioneering study getting at was the pioneering study getting at was the pioneering study where um people with major depressive where um people with major depressive where um people with major depressive disorder were exposed to this this disorder were exposed to this this disorder were exposed to this this device where they're heating heating up device where they're heating heating up device where they're heating heating up their core body temperature by about two their core body temperature by about two their core body temperature by about two degrees and they had an antid-depressant degrees and they had an antid-depressant degrees and they had an antid-depressant effect that lasted six months compared effect that lasted six months compared effect that lasted six months compared to a sham control which was also heating to a sham control which was also heating to a sham control which was also heating people up but not people up but not people up but not >> single treatment >> single treatment >> single treatment >> single treatment now Ashley's gone out >> single treatment now Ashley's gone out >> single treatment now Ashley's gone out and she's done four to eight treatments

1:51and she's done four to eight treatments and she's done four to eight treatments depending on you know the person whether depending on you know the person whether depending on you know the person whether or not they completed the whole study um or not they completed the whole study um or not they completed the whole study um and and she didn't have a sham control, and and she didn't have a sham control, and and she didn't have a sham control, but she's got an just phenomenal. but she's got an just phenomenal. but she's got an just phenomenal. >> How do you sham control that? >> How do you sham control that? >> How do you sham control that? >> So, he so what he did in his study was >> So, he so what he did in his study was >> So, he so what he did in his study was he had the same device that just got he had the same device that just got he had the same device that just got people a little bit warm enough where people a little bit warm enough where people a little bit warm enough where they were thinking they were getting the they were thinking they were getting the they were thinking they were getting the active treatment, but it was not didn't active treatment, but it was not didn't active treatment, but it was not didn't hit the threshold hit the threshold hit the threshold >> of two Yeah. raising their core body >> of two Yeah. raising their core body >> of two Yeah. raising their core body temperature by two degrees to it was a temperature by two degrees to it was a temperature by two degrees to it was a phenomenal study. Um, and this is, by phenomenal study. Um, and this is, by phenomenal study. Um, and this is, by the way, Peter, what got me interested the way, Peter, what got me interested the way, Peter, what got me interested in the sauna back in like 2008 when I in the sauna back in like 2008 when I in the sauna back in like 2008 when I started doing it like every day was I started doing it like every day was I started doing it like every day was I was I lived across the street from YMCA was I lived across the street from YMCA was I lived across the street from YMCA and I was going into the sauna in the and I was going into the sauna in the and I was going into the sauna in the morning. It was freezing in Tennessee morning. It was freezing in Tennessee morning. It was freezing in Tennessee and I was going to the sauna in the and I was going to the sauna in the and I was going to the sauna in the morning before I would go into the lab morning before I would go into the lab morning before I would go into the lab to do my experiments. And I was going to do my experiments. And I was going to do my experiments. And I was going every single morning and staying in a every single morning and staying in a every single morning and staying in a long time cuz I was like, you know, I'm long time cuz I was like, you know, I'm long time cuz I was like, you know, I'm like go hard, go home kind of thing. And like go hard, go home kind of thing. And like go hard, go home kind of thing. And I love the heat. And it was incredible I love the heat. And it was incredible I love the heat. And it was incredible the effect it was having on my mental the effect it was having on my mental the effect it was having on my mental health and my ability to deal with health and my ability to deal with health and my ability to deal with stress and anxiety so much that I was

1:52stress and anxiety so much that I was stress and anxiety so much that I was like, "This is insane. What's going on? like, "This is insane. What's going on? like, "This is insane. What's going on? Nothing has changed other than I'm going Nothing has changed other than I'm going Nothing has changed other than I'm going to the sauna every day before I go and to the sauna every day before I go and to the sauna every day before I go and do all my failed experiments." do all my failed experiments." do all my failed experiments." >> And that's kind of what got me into the >> And that's kind of what got me into the >> And that's kind of what got me into the whole sauna was actually the effect on whole sauna was actually the effect on whole sauna was actually the effect on my mental health. So, it's kind of fun my mental health. So, it's kind of fun my mental health. So, it's kind of fun to go full circle and um team up with to go full circle and um team up with to go full circle and um team up with Ashley on some of this this research as Ashley on some of this this research as Ashley on some of this this research as well. And she's amazing, by the way. and well. And she's amazing, by the way. and well. And she's amazing, by the way. and and we've got some she's got some new and we've got some she's got some new and we've got some she's got some new studies coming out that are really in studies coming out that are really in studies coming out that are really in this whole field of sauna depression. I this whole field of sauna depression. I this whole field of sauna depression. I think just she's opening the door. So, think just she's opening the door. So, think just she's opening the door. So, um that said, um that said, um that said, the effect on the head and you know, if the effect on the head and you know, if the effect on the head and you know, if you think about like hot tubs, you think about like hot tubs, you think about like hot tubs, jacuzzi's, right? We're all sitting with jacuzzi's, right? We're all sitting with jacuzzi's, right? We're all sitting with our head out as well, right? We're in our head out as well, right? We're in our head out as well, right? We're in there and there and there and >> uh it's it's it's it's a good question >> uh it's it's it's it's a good question >> uh it's it's it's it's a good question because I agree with you. When I'm in a because I agree with you. When I'm in a because I agree with you. When I'm in a hot sauna and I'm also on the top and hot sauna and I'm also on the top and hot sauna and I'm also on the top and it's like the same deal. I want to get it's like the same deal. I want to get it's like the same deal. I want to get out in 20 minutes. If I stay in too out in 20 minutes. If I stay in too out in 20 minutes. If I stay in too long, I will get a headache and I I've long, I will get a headache and I I've long, I will get a headache and I I've know my I know my threshold now. I know know my I know my threshold now. I know know my I know my threshold now. I know the temperature and the duration and the

1:53the temperature and the duration and the the temperature and the duration and the amount of water and all that. Like I amount of water and all that. Like I amount of water and all that. Like I know all those variables. know all those variables. know all those variables. >> Isn't it amazing how much water you can >> Isn't it amazing how much water you can >> Isn't it amazing how much water you can drink in a sauna? Like I drink in a sauna? Like I drink in a sauna? Like I >> I know it's it's >> I know it's it's >> I know it's it's >> I worry I'm going to get hyponetriia. >> I worry I'm going to get hyponetriia. >> I worry I'm going to get hyponetriia. I'm like you got to slow this down. I'm like you got to slow this down. I'm like you got to slow this down. Um, so the interesting thing is is that Um, so the interesting thing is is that Um, so the interesting thing is is that talking about dementia risk, I talked talking about dementia risk, I talked talking about dementia risk, I talked about heat shock proteins and I I kind about heat shock proteins and I I kind about heat shock proteins and I I kind of didn't even I like went off on this of didn't even I like went off on this of didn't even I like went off on this tangent. Sorry. But the heat shock tangent. Sorry. But the heat shock tangent. Sorry. But the heat shock proteins, what they do is they prevent proteins, what they do is they prevent proteins, what they do is they prevent proteins from misfolding and forming proteins from misfolding and forming proteins from misfolding and forming aggregates, right? And so, um, you know, aggregates, right? And so, um, you know, aggregates, right? And so, um, you know, it's it's obviously when you're getting it's it's obviously when you're getting it's it's obviously when you're getting into a hot sauna, you are denaturing into a hot sauna, you are denaturing into a hot sauna, you are denaturing some proteins. And so, your heat shock some proteins. And so, your heat shock some proteins. And so, your heat shock proteins are a stress response that's proteins are a stress response that's proteins are a stress response that's activated to help with the proper activated to help with the proper activated to help with the proper folding of those proteins that were kind folding of those proteins that were kind folding of those proteins that were kind of denatured somewhat from the heat that of denatured somewhat from the heat that of denatured somewhat from the heat that you were exposing yourself to. Well, it you were exposing yourself to. Well, it you were exposing yourself to. Well, it turns out the heat shock proteins stay turns out the heat shock proteins stay turns out the heat shock proteins stay active for a long time. And so they end active for a long time. And so they end active for a long time. And so they end up having this like effect where you're up having this like effect where you're up having this like effect where you're now just improving the folding of now just improving the folding of now just improving the folding of proteins in general even after you're proteins in general even after you're proteins in general even after you're out of the hot sauna. Right? So um he out of the hot sauna. Right? So um he out of the hot sauna. Right? So um he there's a lot of animal studies that

1:54there's a lot of animal studies that there's a lot of animal studies that have been done. I did a lot of studies have been done. I did a lot of studies have been done. I did a lot of studies in worms like many many years ago where in worms like many many years ago where in worms like many many years ago where you can take amaloid beta 42 inject it you can take amaloid beta 42 inject it you can take amaloid beta 42 inject it into a worm muscle tissue and then into a worm muscle tissue and then into a worm muscle tissue and then activate heat shock proteins and it like activate heat shock proteins and it like activate heat shock proteins and it like prevents the aggregation and it prevents prevents the aggregation and it prevents prevents the aggregation and it prevents the the muscle sort of paralysis that the the muscle sort of paralysis that the the muscle sort of paralysis that occurs in these worms. Animal studies occurs in these worms. Animal studies occurs in these worms. Animal studies have been done looking at amaloid beta have been done looking at amaloid beta have been done looking at amaloid beta and heat proteins and Alzheimer's and heat proteins and Alzheimer's and heat proteins and Alzheimer's disease. Again, it's having a protective disease. Again, it's having a protective disease. Again, it's having a protective effect. Now, is that the whole story? effect. Now, is that the whole story? effect. Now, is that the whole story? No. The cardiovascular effects are also No. The cardiovascular effects are also No. The cardiovascular effects are also important for brain health in my important for brain health in my important for brain health in my opinion. Right? You know the data coming opinion. Right? You know the data coming opinion. Right? You know the data coming out of Dr. Yariel Lakinan's lab showing out of Dr. Yariel Lakinan's lab showing out of Dr. Yariel Lakinan's lab showing that dementia and Alzheimer's disease that dementia and Alzheimer's disease that dementia and Alzheimer's disease risk is 66% lower in people that are risk is 66% lower in people that are risk is 66% lower in people that are using this on a 4 to seven times per using this on a 4 to seven times per using this on a 4 to seven times per week versus just one time a week. Of week versus just one time a week. Of week versus just one time a week. Of course, all course, all course, all >> that was at 179 degrees or greater for >> that was at 179 degrees or greater for >> that was at 179 degrees or greater for 20 minutes or greater, right? 20 minutes or greater, right? 20 minutes or greater, right? >> Yeah. Like 175 or 179 exactly for 20 >> Yeah. Like 175 or 179 exactly for 20 >> Yeah. Like 175 or 179 exactly for 20 minutes. Um, now here's where your minutes. Um, now here's where your minutes. Um, now here's where your question comes in and that is like what question comes in and that is like what question comes in and that is like what about the head? And there was another about the head? And there was another about the head? And there was another study out of Finland. It was not Yari's

1:55study out of Finland. It was not Yari's study out of Finland. It was not Yari's lab. It was another professor that I I'm lab. It was another professor that I I'm lab. It was another professor that I I'm not aware of. But um this study not aware of. But um this study not aware of. But um this study looked at sauna use and dementia risk. looked at sauna use and dementia risk. looked at sauna use and dementia risk. And then it sort of it stratified the And then it sort of it stratified the And then it sort of it stratified the data based on temperature. And it was data based on temperature. And it was data based on temperature. And it was protective. Again, people that are using protective. Again, people that are using protective. Again, people that are using the sauna, again, they're getting a the sauna, again, they're getting a the sauna, again, they're getting a protective effect against dementia. protective effect against dementia. protective effect against dementia. But when people were going extreme, so But when people were going extreme, so But when people were going extreme, so if they're going above 200 degrees if they're going above 200 degrees if they're going above 200 degrees Fahrenheit and they were on average it Fahrenheit and they were on average it Fahrenheit and they were on average it was like if they were getting to like was like if they were getting to like was like if they were getting to like 212, people do this by the way. This is 212, people do this by the way. This is 212, people do this by the way. This is like you can go on Instagram and see like you can go on Instagram and see like you can go on Instagram and see it's not an uncommon thing. it's not an uncommon thing. it's not an uncommon thing. >> Their dementia risk was actually >> Their dementia risk was actually >> Their dementia risk was actually increased with that temperature where it increased with that temperature where it increased with that temperature where it was like really hot and my concern is was like really hot and my concern is was like really hot and my concern is the head at that high of a temperature. the head at that high of a temperature. the head at that high of a temperature. >> I've started wearing one of those um >> I've started wearing one of those um >> I've started wearing one of those um >> sauna hats. >> sauna hats. >> sauna hats. >> The sauna hats. >> The sauna hats. >> The sauna hats. it. And again, I don't know why it it. And again, I don't know why it it. And again, I don't know why it works. Do you works. Do you works. Do you >> It's not logical to me why it's hurting. >> It's not logical to me why it's hurting. >> It's not logical to me why it's hurting. Why it's helping rather? Why it's helping rather? Why it's helping rather? >> I don't know. It does seem to help. I >> I don't know. It does seem to help. I >> I don't know. It does seem to help. I mean, it shields probably some of the mean, it shields probably some of the mean, it shields probably some of the heat that you're being exposed to,

1:56heat that you're being exposed to, heat that you're being exposed to, right? Cuz there's got to be But but the right? Cuz there's got to be But but the right? Cuz there's got to be But but the fact that that's a net benefit because fact that that's a net benefit because fact that that's a net benefit because it's also got to be preventing you from it's also got to be preventing you from it's also got to be preventing you from dissipating heat. But dissipating heat. But dissipating heat. But >> clearly what it's preventing coming in >> clearly what it's preventing coming in >> clearly what it's preventing coming in is exceeds. But but it makes such a is exceeds. But but it makes such a is exceeds. But but it makes such a difference. difference. difference. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> those I mean these cultures and like >> those I mean these cultures and like >> those I mean these cultures and like >> I've also dialed mine down a little bit. >> I've also dialed mine down a little bit. >> I've also dialed mine down a little bit. I used to be consistently going to at I used to be consistently going to at I used to be consistently going to at least 200 and least 200 and least 200 and now I'm like, you know what, honestly, now I'm like, you know what, honestly, now I'm like, you know what, honestly, like 185 to 190 is good enough. like 185 to 190 is good enough. like 185 to 190 is good enough. >> I'm 180. I do 180. >> I'm 180. I do 180. >> I'm 180. I do 180. >> Well, my wife is going to be very happy >> Well, my wife is going to be very happy >> Well, my wife is going to be very happy if we dial it down to 180 cuz she she's if we dial it down to 180 cuz she she's if we dial it down to 180 cuz she she's more more more >> uh she seems more sensitive to the heat >> uh she seems more sensitive to the heat >> uh she seems more sensitive to the heat than I am. than I am. than I am. >> I'm more sensitive to the heat than my >> I'm more sensitive to the heat than my >> I'm more sensitive to the heat than my husband is as well. I wonder if there's husband is as well. I wonder if there's husband is as well. I wonder if there's some kind of sex thing where Yeah, if some kind of sex thing where Yeah, if some kind of sex thing where Yeah, if it's it's definitely like I'm I'm more it's it's definitely like I'm I'm more it's it's definitely like I'm I'm more sensitive to it. So sensitive to it. So sensitive to it. So >> So that's great. So but this is >> So that's great. So but this is >> So that's great. So but this is important. So, you really think that we important. So, you really think that we important. So, you really think that we could even dial it to 180? could even dial it to 180? could even dial it to 180? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And just totally get the same. >> And just totally get the same. >> And just totally get the same. >> I mean, the data is showing that. >> I mean, the data is showing that. >> I mean, the data is showing that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I just, you know, >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I just, you know, >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I just, you know, me, more is better. me, more is better. me, more is better. >> More is better. Not just you, it's it's >> More is better. Not just you, it's it's >> More is better. Not just you, it's it's it's a common, you know, it's go hard, it's a common, you know, it's go hard, it's a common, you know, it's go hard, go home, right? Um, but I do think with go home, right? Um, but I do think with go home, right? Um, but I do think with we're talking about a type of stress

1:57we're talking about a type of stress we're talking about a type of stress here, right? here, right? here, right? >> And you have to get it hormetically >> And you have to get it hormetically >> And you have to get it hormetically correct. correct. correct. >> Exactly. Exactly. You know, I I don't >> Exactly. Exactly. You know, I I don't >> Exactly. Exactly. You know, I I don't know that the 212 and I hope people that know that the 212 and I hope people that know that the 212 and I hope people that are out there doing the 212 are like are out there doing the 212 are like are out there doing the 212 are like listening to this because listening to this because listening to this because >> it's too it's too hot. There's no need >> it's too it's too hot. There's no need >> it's too it's too hot. There's no need for it. You're not there's no evidence for it. You're not there's no evidence for it. You're not there's no evidence you're getting added benefit and if you're getting added benefit and if you're getting added benefit and if anything there's anything there's anything there's >> potential benefit risk that >> potential benefit risk that >> potential benefit risk that >> you're exactly potential risk downside. >> you're exactly potential risk downside. >> you're exactly potential risk downside. I don't you know that's just one study. I don't you know that's just one study. I don't you know that's just one study. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But it's enough to make me go hm I don't >> But it's enough to make me go hm I don't >> But it's enough to make me go hm I don't like there's no there's no data showing like there's no there's no data showing like there's no there's no data showing we need that. So why are we doing that? we need that. So why are we doing that? we need that. So why are we doing that? >> Rhonda I know you got to go but I want >> Rhonda I know you got to go but I want >> Rhonda I know you got to go but I want to end with with just one one question to end with with just one one question to end with with just one one question and topic which is what year did you and topic which is what year did you and topic which is what year did you launch your podcast? launch your podcast? launch your podcast? >> I launched it in >> I launched it in >> I launched it in >> 14 >> 14 >> 14 >> 2014. >> 2014. >> 2014. >> So here we are. We're 11 years in. You >> So here we are. We're 11 years in. You >> So here we are. We're 11 years in. You are the OG in this space. You have an are the OG in this space. You have an are the OG in this space. You have an incredible podcast. Um, are you still incredible podcast. Um, are you still incredible podcast. Um, are you still enjoying it and what are you most enjoying it and what are you most enjoying it and what are you most excited about? excited about? excited about? >> I love doing the podcast. I don't do it >> I love doing the podcast. I don't do it >> I love doing the podcast. I don't do it every week like some people. I like to s every week like some people. I like to s

1:58every week like some people. I like to s find the guests that I'm really find the guests that I'm really find the guests that I'm really interested in learning from. What I love interested in learning from. What I love interested in learning from. What I love the most is I've always learned more the most is I've always learned more the most is I've always learned more from the conversations I would have with from the conversations I would have with from the conversations I would have with my colleagues or professors my colleagues or professors my colleagues or professors than I would from reading a paper. And than I would from reading a paper. And than I would from reading a paper. And now I get to do that for a living where now I get to do that for a living where now I get to do that for a living where I'm just having like these superstars on I'm just having like these superstars on I'm just having like these superstars on my podcast and I get to like learn so my podcast and I get to like learn so my podcast and I get to like learn so much from I read their papers first, but much from I read their papers first, but much from I read their papers first, but I also I I learn so much from the I also I I learn so much from the I also I I learn so much from the conversation and and then people get to conversation and and then people get to conversation and and then people get to like benefit from it, right? I mean it's like benefit from it, right? I mean it's like benefit from it, right? I mean it's so rewarding. So, I get to like itch my so rewarding. So, I get to like itch my so rewarding. So, I get to like itch my own, you know, or scratch my own itch own, you know, or scratch my own itch own, you know, or scratch my own itch and then I also get to like help people. and then I also get to like help people. and then I also get to like help people. >> Well, you know, I just want to make sure >> Well, you know, I just want to make sure >> Well, you know, I just want to make sure that everybody listening kind of that everybody listening kind of that everybody listening kind of understands your place in the in the understands your place in the in the understands your place in the in the podcast podcast landscape, which is I've podcast podcast landscape, which is I've podcast podcast landscape, which is I've I've talked about one of my favorite I've talked about one of my favorite I've talked about one of my favorite podcasts, probably my favorite podcast, podcasts, probably my favorite podcast, podcasts, probably my favorite podcast, or one of my two favorite podcasts in or one of my two favorite podcasts in or one of my two favorite podcasts in the world is called Acquired. So, the world is called Acquired. So, the world is called Acquired. So, Acquired is a podcast about companies, Acquired is a podcast about companies, Acquired is a podcast about companies, great companies, and what makes them great companies, and what makes them great companies, and what makes them great. And the hosts of that, uh, Ben great. And the hosts of that, uh, Ben great. And the hosts of that, uh, Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal, they only Gilbert and David Rosenthal, they only Gilbert and David Rosenthal, they only put out one a month on average. But the put out one a month on average. But the put out one a month on average. But the reason is the amount of work that they reason is the amount of work that they reason is the amount of work that they have to put into the preparation is have to put into the preparation is have to put into the preparation is insane. And I've I've gotten to know uh

1:59insane. And I've I've gotten to know uh insane. And I've I've gotten to know uh Ben especially and you know I think Ben Ben especially and you know I think Ben Ben especially and you know I think Ben is putting at least 120 hours of is putting at least 120 hours of is putting at least 120 hours of preparation into each podcast and preparation into each podcast and preparation into each podcast and therefore you can only do one a month. therefore you can only do one a month. therefore you can only do one a month. Um and it shows. So in many ways I think Um and it shows. So in many ways I think Um and it shows. So in many ways I think of you as the acquired podcast version of you as the acquired podcast version of you as the acquired podcast version in our space which is just the the in our space which is just the the in our space which is just the the breadth and the depth of what you're breadth and the depth of what you're breadth and the depth of what you're doing is is awesome. It's such a treat. doing is is awesome. It's such a treat. doing is is awesome. It's such a treat. And um it's just it's always it's always And um it's just it's always it's always And um it's just it's always it's always quality over quantity. And yeah, I'm quality over quantity. And yeah, I'm quality over quantity. And yeah, I'm sure if you could put out one a week, sure if you could put out one a week, sure if you could put out one a week, you would, but the reality is you you would, but the reality is you you would, but the reality is you wouldn't be able to put in the quality wouldn't be able to put in the quality wouldn't be able to put in the quality if you were trying to bang one of these if you were trying to bang one of these if you were trying to bang one of these things out a week. And um so anyway, I'm things out a week. And um so anyway, I'm things out a week. And um so anyway, I'm just I'm glad to hear you're still just I'm glad to hear you're still just I'm glad to hear you're still loving it. U and it's hard to believe loving it. U and it's hard to believe loving it. U and it's hard to believe how fast time has gone. I remember being how fast time has gone. I remember being how fast time has gone. I remember being on your podcast in 2014, so that's kind on your podcast in 2014, so that's kind on your podcast in 2014, so that's kind of insane. of insane. of insane. >> You were like one of the first 10 guests >> You were like one of the first 10 guests >> You were like one of the first 10 guests I've had. I don't think I knew what a I I've had. I don't think I knew what a I I've had. I don't think I knew what a I mean, I sort of knew what a podcast was mean, I sort of knew what a podcast was mean, I sort of knew what a podcast was cuz Tim Ferris had had me on his, but it cuz Tim Ferris had had me on his, but it cuz Tim Ferris had had me on his, but it was like I didn't really understand what was like I didn't really understand what was like I didn't really understand what this was. I was like, I wonder why does this was. I was like, I wonder why does

2:00this was. I was like, I wonder why does she want to talk to me? Like this seems she want to talk to me? Like this seems she want to talk to me? Like this seems kind of random, but uh look at how much kind of random, but uh look at how much kind of random, but uh look at how much it's evolved, right? it's evolved, right? it's evolved, right? >> I know. Well, thank you for the kind >> I know. Well, thank you for the kind >> I know. Well, thank you for the kind words. And I feel the same about your words. And I feel the same about your words. And I feel the same about your podcast. You know, when I'm when I'm podcast. You know, when I'm when I'm podcast. You know, when I'm when I'm looking for information that I know I looking for information that I know I looking for information that I know I can trust, it's always like I'm like, can trust, it's always like I'm like, can trust, it's always like I'm like, what? Peter, what's Peter? Peter. Peter what? Peter, what's Peter? Peter. Peter what? Peter, what's Peter? Peter. Peter is someone that I've always been able to is someone that I've always been able to is someone that I've always been able to trust for being rigorous, right? And trust for being rigorous, right? And trust for being rigorous, right? And really like like you said, if something really like like you said, if something really like like you said, if something changes, then you change. And I respect changes, then you change. And I respect changes, then you change. And I respect that. that. that. >> Well, Rhonda, it is it this has been >> Well, Rhonda, it is it this has been >> Well, Rhonda, it is it this has been super interesting. As is always the super interesting. As is always the super interesting. As is always the case, there were about 80% more things case, there were about 80% more things case, there were about 80% more things we were supposed to talk about today, we were supposed to talk about today, we were supposed to talk about today, but I'm really glad that we got to the but I'm really glad that we got to the but I'm really glad that we got to the topics we talked about. I think the the topics we talked about. I think the the topics we talked about. I think the the protein question, the creatine question, protein question, the creatine question, protein question, the creatine question, and this nuance around temperature are and this nuance around temperature are and this nuance around temperature are all things that matter to everybody and all things that matter to everybody and all things that matter to everybody and and in two of the three cases, I learned and in two of the three cases, I learned and in two of the three cases, I learned a lot. Obviously, on the protein side, a lot. Obviously, on the protein side, a lot. Obviously, on the protein side, it was more about you and I trying to it was more about you and I trying to it was more about you and I trying to set the record straight. But I this set the record straight. But I this set the record straight. But I this creatine stuff is new. It's going to creatine stuff is new. It's going to creatine stuff is new. It's going to change what I do. And also, you're going change what I do. And also, you're going change what I do. And also, you're going to you've already made a change to what to you've already made a change to what to you've already made a change to what I'm going to do in the sauna. So,

369 Rethinking protein needs for muscle and longevity and the benefits of creati